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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/8/2008 7:21:51 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 515
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
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quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
quote:
To cease thinking does not automatically mean to empty one's mind. It is to not allow the distractions of life to get into your prayers and sidetrack you from praying. (I wonder if that is why Paul said "pray at all times" because of our human tendency to allow distractions to capture us.)
floydette,
I think I agree, as your explanation seems to reveal that in some cases the issue is nothing more than semantics. However, the proponants of contemporary forms of CP overtly and unapolagetically claim the intent is to gain a state of emptiness. Even a casual reading of Scripture reveals that Biblical meditation involves the active mind.
Perhaps it would be helpful to understand what the author means by "emptying one's mind". My guess is the proponents of TM and those of CP would have different definitions.
floydette,
I didn't see your previous post asking about the comparisons between TM and CP. To answer your question: yes, contemporary forms of CP are virtually identical to TM (btw, I must have made an error if one of my links took you to the official TM website). A year ago (?) the TM site actually contained instructions about how to do TM; now they require that inquirers purchase their material. I think I saved it somewhere, but I'll have to look for it.
The context of CP is different than TM, but the methods are virtually identical. The point of linking the Vanderbuilt site was to provide an reputable description of what I found on the TM site, and to demonstrate that TM can be practiced in a psuedo-religious manner (using religious words or symbols for the mantra). Though the context might be different (religious vs. secular - though TM began as a religous practice before it was redefined so it could be taught and practiced in public schools), and CP tweaks the end goal (hearing from God rather than a non-defined source of enlightenment) the similarities are striking.
1-emptying one's mind through focusing on a word or symbol
2-practicing it twice a day
3-sitting positions
4-suggestions for staying focused on the mantra
5-two minute period after end of session, but before returning to daily activities
6-achieving a state of utter peacfulness
CP is formula. If you do this, then that will happen. Nowhere does God say that if we follow the steps of this formula we can expect peace or enlightenment. To the contrary, He tells us to be filled with the Spirit and these things will flow from the Spirit's presence in our lives.
As for non-web based sources, I cited one in post #104. I will have to go dig through my books so I can give you accurate info. I will try to post that for you tomorrow.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/9/2008 7:02:30 AM
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floydette
Posts: 1087
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Mush,
Thanks for your post. The reason I linked CP and TM is because you used the TM website in post 104 as a proof-text against CP, thus appearing to compare the two. I am afraid that we will be coming to a point of agreeing to disagree. The words that you use are those that would divide (mantra, emptying one's mind, utter peacefulness) many people. People may well have a desire to deepen their relationship with God, yet read words such as these, and thus run away because of fear.
CP is a practice of prayer Spiritual practices are just that - practices. You practice soccer to become a better soccer player. You practice healthy relationships in your family tohave better relationships. We practice spiritual things to have a "better" relationship with God. Based on our history, and our personalities, often we stear toward one method, while leaving another along. I have never heard anyone say there is a guarantee with CP. It is the involvement of two, both God and ourselves, and the drawing near to him in relationship.
_____________________________
“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” Henri Bergson
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 10/25/2008 12:52:23 AM
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Dan1138
Posts: 186
Joined: 7/1/2008
From: The Land of Graham
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I see I have been misrepresented in my long absence. To be clear AGAIN, I love deep thoughtful prayer to and about God. I love to fill my mind or better stated to have God fill my mind. To empty your mind leads to experience only. Modern Contemplative Prayer is evil stuff that is misleading many a damned person straight into hell. To contemplate God or His Word is good. My thoughts seem to align wholeheartedly with MUSHHEAD.
To all those who use the modern mantric form of CP or tie phyllactories to your heads I ask you: What can YOU do to get close to God? God comes to us because He is great. Stop chasing the wind!!!!!
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 10/26/2008 5:24:50 PM
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PastorPatricia
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The Book of Common Prayer is not a book in the Bible, it is the book used in the Anglican/Episcopal Church and if filled with Scripture and many beautiful prayers. It can be found on the Internet by searching for it by name.
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But be sure to fear the Lord and serve him faithfully with all your heart; consider what great things he has done for you. Is. 12:24
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 10/27/2008 3:28:41 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4115
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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Yes - The Book of Common Prayer is a wonderful document. I own one.
I would also suggest reading thru a Siddur (Jewish Prayer book). The orthodox standard is the Artscroll siddur www.artscroll.org and contains EVERYTHING. Other denominations of Judaism have their own but they are all based on the Orthodox prayer book.
If you want mystical - you can try the one used by the Chabad Lubavichers (Siddur Tehillat Hashem) but I would not recomend it.
_____________________________
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We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 11/1/2008 12:01:35 PM
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Heavendweller
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This is an interesting thread. It took a while to read through it, but I'm glad I did.
I think that often, Satan will mimic what is godly so as to mislead people. I would suggest that this is the case with contemplative prayer. There is contemplative prayer that is godly and draws one closer to Jesus Christ. Then there are those who claim the label of "contemplative prayer" but are really promoting New Age prayer, which can encompass a whole gamut of unbiblical, unchristian ideas. Ideas such as channeling spirits, praying to any thing that one personally decides is their spirit guide, and worshipping the god of one's choice, whoever that might be.
The enemy quoted Sacred Scripture to Jesus, but no all who quote Sacred Scripture are led by the spirit of Satan, as we know. The enemy has convinced unbelievers that their good works in and of themselves can save them. Yet, true believers in Christ also do good works. So, the good works are not evil but rather, the context in which one places these good works. I'm sure there are other examples that could be given.
So it is that the evil one has hijacked the term "contemplative prayer" to deceive others. There is contemplative prayer which is edifying to the believer in Christ and pleasing to our Heavenly Father. Then there is "contemplative prayer" which is a deceptive term used by the promoters of the New Age religion, that has nothing to do with Christianity whatsoever.
HD
_____________________________
See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. I John 3:1
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 11/7/2008 6:59:20 PM
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Dan1138
Posts: 186
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From: The Land of Graham
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True True True Heavendweller, previous two post's mention the Anglican prayer tradition and the Jewish prayer tradition, but why repeat a tradition that is incomplete. If works based prayer saved you you wouldn't need Christ. Why repeat prayers over and over? Do many words save you?
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 11/7/2008 10:52:24 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2787
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
previous two post's mention the Anglican prayer tradition and the Jewish prayer tradition, but why repeat a tradition that is incomplete.
Many Fundamentalist churches have a mid-week prayer service. Since this is a man-made trandition would you scrap these services also?
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 11/8/2008 1:55:37 PM
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Dan1138
Posts: 186
Joined: 7/1/2008
From: The Land of Graham
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It really depends upon the form of prayer. My comment wasn't relating to foolish denominational struggles between fundamentalists, liberals, Roman Catholics etc...
It really was a comment toward empty repetitive prayers that lead to error. The Lord's Prayer (or the Our Father) is a prime example of this. Some have abandoned the entire prayer due to controversy. I myself began this "journey" by contemplating the Lord's prayer while I prayed it. Praying by rote is what leads to awful heresies like Contemplative (mantric) Prayer.
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 11/9/2008 1:25:42 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 576
Joined: 12/22/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dan1138
True True True Heavendweller, previous two post's mention the Anglican prayer tradition and the Jewish prayer tradition, but why repeat a tradition that is incomplete. If works based prayer saved you you wouldn't need Christ. Why repeat prayers over and over? Do many words save you?
Dan, I'm not quite sure what you are asking here. Perhaps you misunderstand something I wrote. So, what do you mean by 1) "Why repeat a tradition that is incomplete?" and 2) "If works based prayer saved you, you wouldn't need Christ?"
Personally, I am not even one who has experienced contemplative prayer. Rather, I've read about it and conversed with those who have. However, prayer is expressed and practiced in many different ways.
For example, there is intercessory prayer, that is, pleading for the case of another. This are many examples of this in Sacred Scripture. Then there is meditative prayer, often used when pondering upon Sacred Scripture or the beauty of God's creation. Then there is prayer for healing. Sometimes prayer is calling out loud to God. Other times it is done interiorly. But I think in essence, prayer is communication and connection with the blessed Triune God.
HD
_____________________________
See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. I John 3:1
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 11/14/2008 12:23:53 AM
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Dan1138
Posts: 186
Joined: 7/1/2008
From: The Land of Graham
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dan1138
True True True Heavendweller, previous two post's mention the Anglican prayer tradition and the Jewish prayer tradition, but why repeat a tradition that is incomplete. If works based prayer saved you you wouldn't need Christ. Why repeat prayers over and over? Do many words save you?
Dan, I'm not quite sure what you are asking here. Perhaps you misunderstand something I wrote. So, what do you mean by 1) "Why repeat a tradition that is incomplete?" and 2) "If works based prayer saved you, you wouldn't need Christ?"
Personally, I am not even one who has experienced contemplative prayer. Rather, I've read about it and conversed with those who have. However, prayer is expressed and practiced in many different ways.
For example, there is intercessory prayer, that is, pleading for the case of another. This are many examples of this in Sacred Scripture. Then there is meditative prayer, often used when pondering upon Sacred Scripture or the beauty of God's creation. Then there is prayer for healing. Sometimes prayer is calling out loud to God. Other times it is done interiorly. But I think in essence, prayer is communication and connection with the blessed Triune God.
HD
Sure no problem Heavendweller. Jewish prayer was often prayed by those who did not know God, just as prayer from an unsaved "christian" would be today. Most Jewish prayers that I have seen are straight out of scripture and therefore reflect the incomplete original covenant with Isreal. Jewish prayers were also often repeated day after day or hour after hour. Now Jesus has completed the covenant and we are open to speak with God one on one. Most (mystic) Contemplatives want us to return to old testament Jewish practices. This leads most ((mystic) Contemplatives into spiritism, demon contact, visions etc etc etc, because Jesus taught us how to pray in Luke 11. No head bobbing needed. Just ask Dad.
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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