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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/4/2008 2:14:31 PM
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floydette
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
I am aware that eveyone who uses the term "Contemplative" does not mean the same thing. I am not seeking to throw a blanket judgment over the whole issue. However, in our day and time, the term elicits images of certain practices that we both agree are not Biblical. Those are the practices I am speaking out against. My reason: if the percentages of those on this thread are representative of Christianithy as a whole, a freightening number of us are engaged in a dangerous activity.
This sounds like you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater Mushhead.
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“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” Henri Bergson
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/4/2008 2:45:12 PM
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mushhead
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Colliefan,
I offer this response in love and gentleness, as one speaking to a close and dear friend; which as members of Christ's family we should be, even if we don't know each other very well.
It seems to me that you are starting with a conclusion and then using that conclusion to interpret Scripture. I am not saying that is what you are doing, but it sure appears that way. The passages that you cited only tell us that He withdrew to pray or spend time alone with the Father. There is nothing in the passages you cited about Jesus withdrawing from the crowds that tells us anything about how He prayed. The account Jesus' last night in the Garden is the only Scripture that gives any indication of how Jesus spent His time alone with the Father (though we cannot draw too many conclusions about His other times of solitude from this story). In that account, He prayed vocally.
Because the passages do not tell us anything about how Jesus prayed during His time alone, you are, IMHO, reading into the story practices the Scriptures simply do not reveal. I only say this because making assumptions can be a very dangerous practice, and I might add, one that we all are prone to, and therefore must be careful to guard against. I would want to be told if someone thought I was doing this, so I am telling you.
< Message edited by mushhead -- 8/4/2008 2:56:51 PM >
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MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/4/2008 2:47:09 PM
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mushhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
I am aware that eveyone who uses the term "Contemplative" does not mean the same thing. I am not seeking to throw a blanket judgment over the whole issue. However, in our day and time, the term elicits images of certain practices that we both agree are not Biblical. Those are the practices I am speaking out against. My reason: if the percentages of those on this thread are representative of Christianithy as a whole, a freightening number of us are engaged in a dangerous activity.
This sounds like you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater Mushhead.
floydette,
Instead of saying "throw a blanket judgment" maybe I should have said that I am not willing to say that all forms of Christian meditation is wrong.
< Message edited by mushhead -- 8/4/2008 3:04:24 PM >
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/4/2008 3:07:07 PM
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floydette
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You are not being dense - you just are not familiar with the idiom.
"Throwing the baby out with the bathwater" is an idiom meaning that one is tossing out the good that is in something because there may be something "bad" in it as well. In this case, it would be akin to saying that because there are people who do not do contemplative prayer in the way you seem to desire them to practice it, that they should stop it all together. Or because there are abusive churches, we shouldn't go to church. Or, there was a broken airplane, so we should shut down all airports. To not "toss the baby out with the bath" would be to have the ability to see the good in something, even though there may be parts with which you do not agree. Which, is probably what we do ever 4 years when we vote for Pres... hehehehe
Edited to add: Hey, you switched your post while I was responding......
_____________________________
“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” Henri Bergson
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/4/2008 4:26:57 PM
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colliefan
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If the brain is the core of our being, why did Paul pen this verse:
1 Cor 13:12 (ESV) 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
Too many Christians aproach this bible and the faith as a large jig-saw puzzle where each piece must perfectly. Certainly there are certainties which are outlined in the historic creeds and confessions, but there are some parts that cannot be contained by Western rationalism.
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/4/2008 5:59:13 PM
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mushhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
You are not being dense - you just are not familiar with the idiom.
"Throwing the baby out with the bathwater" is an idiom meaning that one is tossing out the good that is in something because there may be something "bad" in it as well. In this case, it would be akin to saying that because there are people who do not do contemplative prayer in the way you seem to desire them to practice it, that they should stop it all together. Or because there are abusive churches, we shouldn't go to church. Or, there was a broken airplane, so we should shut down all airports. To not "toss the baby out with the bath" would be to have the ability to see the good in something, even though there may be parts with which you do not agree. Which, is probably what we do ever 4 years when we vote for Pres... hehehehe
Edited to add: Hey, you switched your post while I was responding......
Yeah, I did switch my post, because I thought it was better to respond to what I thought you were most likely referring to, rather than ask a question I was pretty sure (but not positive) you meant. Oh yeah, I am familiar with the idiom, I just wasn't positive about which you thought I was throwing out.
I don't think I am throwing anything out. Instead I am accepting the reality that the meanings of words change over time. For example: either many years ago or very recently (I won't say which) a Broadway play was produced called "The Gay Divorcee." If it was written a long time ago, based on the title, audiences would have expected the story to be about something far different than if it were written for modern day audiences. The same is true of Contemplative prayer. It really doesn't matter how people understood the term, seventy years, or seven hundred years, or seventeen hundred years ago. It matters how people understand the term, now.
The inescapable fact is many (probably most) modern day Christians understand the practice to be something different than what you say it was originally. Added to that is the fact that those who are actively, even aggresively promoting the practice today, are not promoting anything close to Biblical contemplation. Therefore, CP today means something different than it should. We cannot ignore that fact. Or we take a very real risk, that the baby we throw out, isn't the term, but those Christians who encounter the practices that term has come to represent.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/5/2008 11:55:46 AM
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Ps103
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quote:
The same is true of Contemplative prayer. It really doesn't matter how people understood the term, seventy years, or seven hundred years, or seventeen hundred years ago. It matters how people understand the term, now.
But Mush, the exact same thing can be said of Christianity as a whole, if you think about it.
If I were a non-Christian who only knew of Christianity from what I saw on the news, I would think there were two factions of Christianity: the Westboro types and the Joel Osteen types, and I wouldn't want anything to do with either of them. And I may talk to my grandmother, who will assure me that neither of these were representative of Christianity seventy years ago, or seven hundred years ago, or seventeen hundred years ago--but that would not matter, because that is not how I understand the term *now*.
Do you see where I am heading with this?
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/5/2008 3:15:59 PM
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mushhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
quote:
The same is true of Contemplative prayer. It really doesn't matter how people understood the term, seventy years, or seven hundred years, or seventeen hundred years ago. It matters how people understand the term, now.
But Mush, the exact same thing can be said of Christianity as a whole, if you think about it.
If I were a non-Christian who only knew of Christianity from what I saw on the news, I would think there were two factions of Christianity: the Westboro types and the Joel Osteen types, and I wouldn't want anything to do with either of them. And I may talk to my grandmother, who will assure me that neither of these were representative of Christianity seventy years ago, or seven hundred years ago, or seventeen hundred years ago--but that would not matter, because that is not how I understand the term *now*.
Do you see where I am heading with this?
Ps103,
Yes, I see where you are going with this, which is why if we want to salvage that particular term, then we must do the same thing Christians do to counter the issues you cited about Christianity...we must actively seek to educate people about the truth about CP. If we fail to do this, the term, (not the Biblical practice), will be lost to a new and overtly pagan definition; much in the same way Christianity would be defined by the Olsteens and the Westboro types if the church failed to spread it's message.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/5/2008 5:16:49 PM
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colliefan
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Here is a good passage for CP
Rom 11:33 - 36 (ESV) Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/6/2008 11:30:32 AM
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DaveW
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colliefan, did you see my answer to your question about the phylacteries/tefillin?
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/6/2008 12:43:37 PM
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floydette
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
Ps103,
Yes, I see where you are going with this, which is why if we want to salvage that particular term, then we must do the same thing Christians do to counter the issues you cited about Christianity...we must actively seek to educate people about the truth about CP. If we fail to do this, the term, (not the Biblical practice), will be lost to a new and overtly pagan definition; much in the same way Christianity would be defined by the Olsteens and the Westboro types if the church failed to spread it's message.
mush,
So, you are pro-contemplative prayer? in it's original state? I mean if you are talking about salvaging a particular term (CP), then one must assume that you are actually on the pro side. Re-reading some of your posts...it certainly doesn't seem that way.
Also, if is it about what people believe the term means today - then why look at what the biblical authors meant by what they wrote? Why not just say, "well, this means ______ to me today." Instead, we seek to understand what the authors actually meant 2000 years ago. We do not say - "well, let's call this something else because the word "bible" is actually been misused." We adjust how people actually practice reading scripture. So, is that what you are doing? Adjusting how people engage in CP? And, if that is your intent, they why side with Daniel who is so anti- CP in any form?
_____________________________
“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” Henri Bergson
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/6/2008 3:26:55 PM
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mushhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
Ps103,
Yes, I see where you are going with this, which is why if we want to salvage that particular term, then we must do the same thing Christians do to counter the issues you cited about Christianity...we must actively seek to educate people about the truth about CP. If we fail to do this, the term, (not the Biblical practice), will be lost to a new and overtly pagan definition; much in the same way Christianity would be defined by the Olsteens and the Westboro types if the church failed to spread it's message.
mush,
So, you are pro-contemplative prayer? in it's original state? I mean if you are talking about salvaging a particular term (CP), then one must assume that you are actually on the pro side. Re-reading some of your posts...it certainly doesn't seem that way.
Also, if is it about what people believe the term means today - then why look at what the biblical authors meant by what they wrote? Why not just say, "well, this means ______ to me today." Instead, we seek to understand what the authors actually meant 2000 years ago. We do not say - "well, let's call this something else because the word "bible" is actually been misused." We adjust how people actually practice reading scripture. So, is that what you are doing? Adjusting how people engage in CP? And, if that is your intent, they why side with Daniel who is so anti- CP in any form?
floydette,
I'm not pro CP; I'm pro biblical forms of meditation. My previous posts were dealing with the popular contemporary forms of CP. I only acknowledged a legititmate form of "CP" because some on this thread have applied [IMO a Biblical definition] to the term. If they want to continue using CP to describe those practices then they must rescue the term from its more common modern (or should I say postmodern) day connotations. I'm all for that, because it will further the efforts to inform people about the differences between Biblical meditation and Christianized eastern mysticism that is becoming increasingly popular in Western society.
I haven't changed any position, I've just provided more information as others clarified their's. First, I addressed those that were defending CP. Then as some started to describe what they meant by CP, I began addressing the issue that information raised: the different defintions people apply to the same word.
I hope this clears things up for you.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/6/2008 5:01:16 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
colliefan, did you see my answer to your question about the phylacteries/tefillin?
yes
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/7/2008 7:51:55 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefanquote:
colliefan, did you see my answer to your question about the phylacteries/tefillin?
yes Did it sufficiently answer the question?
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/7/2008 8:54:51 AM
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floydette
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mush,
I hear what you are saying. Can you tell me the difference that you see between meditating on a "word" and repeating the word? Thank you.
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“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” Henri Bergson
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/7/2008 12:55:00 PM
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mushhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
mush,
I hear what you are saying. Can you tell me the difference that you see between meditating on a "word" and repeating the word? Thank you.
In a postmodern, eastern mysticism context: no difference.
In a Biblical context: the point of meditating is contemplating, thinking about, considering, not repeating a word over and over again in order to achieve a state of mind where all of one's surroundings and virtually every sensation is escaped.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/7/2008 3:20:14 PM
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floydette
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Could you point me in the direction of a website or writing where you are reading about achieving "a state of mind where all of one's surroundings and virtually everyh sensation is escaped"? I'd like to read what you are reading - see if we can get on the same page.
Thanks.
_____________________________
“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” Henri Bergson
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/7/2008 3:53:55 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefanquote:
colliefan, did you see my answer to your question about the phylacteries/tefillin?
yes Did it sufficiently answer the question?
yes
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/7/2008 7:07:41 PM
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mushhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
Could you point me in the direction of a website or writing where you are reading about achieving "a state of mind where all of one's surroundings and virtually everyh sensation is escaped"? I'd like to read what you are reading - see if we can get on the same page.
Thanks.
Sure! Go to post#104 on page five of this thread. I posted some quotes there, as well as a couple of links. I can direct you to other links and non-web based sources if you desire more info than those sites provide.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/8/2008 8:04:18 AM
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floydette
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
Could you point me in the direction of a website or writing where you are reading about achieving "a state of mind where all of one's surroundings and virtually everyh sensation is escaped"? I'd like to read what you are reading - see if we can get on the same page.
Thanks.
Sure! Go to post#104 on page five of this thread. I posted some quotes there, as well as a couple of links. I can direct you to other links and non-web based sources if you desire more info than those sites provide.
I will check out the links. I would also like to know the non-web resources as well.
_____________________________
“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” Henri Bergson
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/8/2008 8:31:57 AM
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floydette
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Mush,
The first link that I checked out was the TM link. Here is what they say. "TM advocates claim that Transcendental Meditation is unlike any other forms of mediation or relaxation techniques. The TM program is more effective in reducing apprehension, improving mental health, increasing self-awareness, and reducing the abuse of cigarettes, drugs, and alcohol. Unlike hypnosis, Transcendental Meditation is normal and entails no proposals. The technique is simple to learn, is easy to practice, and does not include concentration or contemplation, which other forms of meditation and self- improvement do (http://www.tm.org/book/chap_9.html). �The result: Do less and accomplish more with greater energy, success, and satisfaction in everything you do� (http://www.tm.org/book/chap_9.html)" http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/psychology/health_psychology/transcendental_meditation.htm
This is different from CP. TM has no prayer involved and even states that it does not include contemplation. So, do I hear you saying that people who think they are practicing CP are actually practicing TM? And, if so, could you help me find that data? Thanks.
_____________________________
“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” Henri Bergson
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/8/2008 8:58:23 AM
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floydette
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
quote:
Centering Prayer Guidelines
Choose a sacred word as the symbol of your intention to consent to God’s presence and action within. (cf. Open Mind, Open Heart, chap. 5)
The sacred word expresses our intention to consent to God’s presence and action within.
The sacred word is chosen during a brief period of prayer asking the Holy Spirit to inspire us with one that is especially suitable for us.
Examples: God, Jesus, Abba, Father, Mother, Mary, Amen.
Other possibilities: Love, Peace, Mercy, Listen, Let Go, Silence, Stillness, Faith, Trust, Yes.
Instead of a sacred word a simple inward glance toward the Divine Presence or noticing one’s breath may be more suitable for some persons. The same guidelines apply to these symbols as to the sacred word.
The sacred word is sacred not because of its inherent meaning but because of the meaning we give it as the expression of our intention and consent.
Having chosen a sacred word, we do not change it during the prayer period because that would be to start thinking again.
Sitting comfortably and with eyes closed, settle briefly and silently introduce the sacred word as the symbol of your consent to God’s presence and action within.
“Sitting comfortably” means relatively comfortably so as not to encourage sleep during the time of prayer.
Whatever sitting position we choose, we keep the back straight.
We close our eyes as a symbol of letting go of what is going on around and within us.
We introduce the sacred word inwardly as gently as laying a feather on a piece of absorbent cotton.
Should we fall asleep upon awakening we continue the prayer.
When engaged with your thoughts, return ever-so-gently to the sacred word.
“Thoughts” is an umbrella term for every perception, including sense perceptions, feelings, images, memories, plans, reflections, concepts, commentaries, and spiritual experiences.
Thoughts are an inevitable, integral and normal part of Centering Prayer.
By “returning ever-so-gently to the sacred word” a minimum of effort is indicated. This is the only activity we initiate during the time of Centering Prayer.
During the course of Centering Prayer, the sacred word may become vague or disappear.
At the end of the prayer period, remain in silence with eyes closed for a couple of minutes.
The additional 2 minutes enables us to bring the atmosphere of silence into everyday life.
If this prayer is done in a group, the leader may slowly recite a prayer such as the Lord’s Prayer while the others listen.
The Guidelines
Choose a sacred word as the symbol of your intention to consent to God’s presence and action within.
Sitting comfortably and with eyes closed, settle briefly and silently introduce the sacred word as the symbol of your consent to God’s presence and action within.
When engaged with your thoughts*, return ever-sogently to the sacred word.
At the end of the prayer period, remain in silence with eyes closed for a couple of minutes.
*Thoughts include body sensations, feelings, images, and reflections
Centuring Prayer Methods
Notice that the intent is to cease thinking, which means to completely empty one's mind of all thoughts. Notice the definition for thoughts, then read the item immediately above it (both embolded) that reinforces the fact that the goal is to empty oneself of all these thoughts. Also notice that Biblical words are not necessary, the list also suggests that focusing on one's breathing, or some symbol is also acceptable. Finally, if you connect the dots between the the final note (thoughts include reflections), and the earlier statement (eventually even the word being focused on may disappear), it becomes evident that the intent of this practice is the complete emtying of the mind - the final thought to exit the mind is the focus of the mantra itself.
Mush,
To cease thinking does not automatically mean to empty one's mind. It is to not allow the distractions of life to get into your prayers and sidetrack you from praying. (I wonder if that is why Paul said "pray at all times" because of our human tendency to allow distractions to capture us.) While "biblical" words may not always be used (however, they most often are, because you are actually using scripture), the suggestions that you brought forth say "sacred" words. A sacred word can be any word that draws us closer to intimacy with God.
The symbol that is suggested is not just any symbol, it is one that allows us to focus on God, and that invites us into deeper intimacy with him. For example, my garden (while it is not in the bible) is a sacred space for me. For me to focus on the garden during prayer invites me to a place with God that I do not always enter into on a normal busy day.
Looking forward to reading your non-web resources...
Thanks.
_____________________________
“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” Henri Bergson
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/8/2008 3:22:29 PM
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mushhead
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quote:
To cease thinking does not automatically mean to empty one's mind. It is to not allow the distractions of life to get into your prayers and sidetrack you from praying. (I wonder if that is why Paul said "pray at all times" because of our human tendency to allow distractions to capture us.)
floydette,
I think I agree, as your explanation seems to reveal that in some cases the issue is nothing more than semantics. However, the proponants of contemporary forms of CP overtly and unapolagetically claim the intent is to gain a state of emptiness. Even a casual reading of Scripture reveals that Biblical meditation involves the active mind.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 8/8/2008 4:06:49 PM
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floydette
Posts: 1087
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
quote:
To cease thinking does not automatically mean to empty one's mind. It is to not allow the distractions of life to get into your prayers and sidetrack you from praying. (I wonder if that is why Paul said "pray at all times" because of our human tendency to allow distractions to capture us.)
floydette,
I think I agree, as your explanation seems to reveal that in some cases the issue is nothing more than semantics. However, the proponants of contemporary forms of CP overtly and unapolagetically claim the intent is to gain a state of emptiness. Even a casual reading of Scripture reveals that Biblical meditation involves the active mind.
Perhaps it would be helpful to understand what the author means by "emptying one's mind". My guess is the proponents of TM and those of CP would have different definitions.
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“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” Henri Bergson
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