John 5:3-4 (Full Version)

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colliefan -> John 5:3-4 (7/19/2008 3:18:47 PM)

John 5:3 - 4 (NASB) 3In these lay a multitude of those who were sick, blind, lame, and withered, £waiting for the moving of the waters; 4for an angel of the Lord went down at certain seasons into the pool and stirred up the water; whoever then first, after the stirring up of the water, stepped in was made well from whatever disease with which he was afflicted.


Some versions indicate these verses are not in the original. In light of the Todd Bentley circus in Lakeland, are these verses vital to the text.



Lapidoth -> RE: John 5:3-4 (7/24/2008 2:11:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

John 5:3 - 4 (NASB) 3In these lay a multitude of those who were sick, blind, lame, and withered, £waiting for the moving of the waters; 4for an angel of the Lord went down at certain seasons into the pool and stirred up the water; whoever then first, after the stirring up of the water, stepped in was made well from whatever disease with which he was afflicted.


Some versions indicate these verses are not in the original. In light of the Todd Bentley circus in Lakeland, are these verses vital to the text.



LOL.
I was going to post on John 5, and then I saw this.

Kinda takes some of the real meaning out to add these verses
that were not in the original manuscripts. In fact, we spent our
Tuesday night Bible Study to this story in John 5.

What was "added" in vv. 3-4 is what Bentley is surely doing with
his fallen angelic guides in his meetings.

The pool of Bethsaida was a shrine to a Greek healing-god.
When Rome destroyed Jerusalem, they build a full Temple to the god of healing.

It's hard to imagine what Jesus would do at the "pool of bentley".
Well, maybe it really isn't that hard to imagine. He's made whips before.



rcjones -> RE: John 5:3-4 (7/24/2008 8:35:54 PM)

I don't know what goes on in Florida, but the verses do add context to the shadows:

The first observation is that it is a parallel but opposite experience to entering his own temple. There he found those who should know better, selling the grace that God had offered freely. In the pagan pool, you had pagans anticipating free grace from Bethesda meaning " house of mercy".

The bubbling water hints at the expectation for life giving or living water. And it was Jesus is the real living water who freely gave. Without the verses, you just have a bunch of people around a pool and lose the imagery.


The second observation:
The Torah:Word pattern is summarized with hearing, seeing and walking. In the Wedding at Cana thread I showed the pattern in the first three days of Jesus' ministry. John calls our attention to it again with John 4:54 This is again the second miracle that Jesus did, when he was come out of Judaea into Galilee.

The first miracle was his dealings with the woman and people of Sychar. The operative word for that experience is :"hear" and as you read through it, look for that.

The second miracle was the healing of the nobleman's son. The operative word is see as in "48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe."

The third miracle is making the man "walk" completing the Torah:Word pattern. For this imagery, the bubbling isn't required, but is a nice touch.


The third observation:
The troubled waters reminds us of the "flutterings" of the Spirit of God upon the face of the deep in Gen 1. The firmament foreshadows Christ as mediator between the waters below and those above. In this case, It was Christ who separated the pagan waters from the real living water.

The reason Jesus gave mercy in the pagan temple and judgment in his own is because judgment first comes to the house of God. But also because of the temperament of the people in each. Those at Bethsaida, were "impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting.."

They were sick, (not thinking themselves healthy and without blemish as in the temple), they were unable to "see", or "walk" but they could still "hear" and his sheep hear his voice. And they were withered or dry... waterless, even though the water was there. They were waiting for the living water... though a bit mistaken in the details... Christ.

In this observation, the bubbles help.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: John 5:3-4 (7/25/2008 6:58:51 AM)

The first question to be asked is not whether the verses are necessary. The first question to be asked is, 'if these verses are added, who would have added them and why?' There is the same problem with the end of Mark after 16:8. The answer is that most likely those kind of additions were made by Messianic scribes. Now that we have at least a clue where any additions might have come from, we need to ask if they would be a reliable source for the additional material. The whole "angel stirring the water" thing was at least Jewish tradition, hence the "addition". So now, based on the fact that Christianity began as a sect of Judaism, it would make sense that Jewish tradition was relatively close to the actual truth. However, if you are willing to believe that these verses are faulty, then you need to question the english translation wholesale because "God didn't protect the canon!"

Now, do the verses DETRACT from the meaning of the passage? Not at all. Do they ENHANCE the meaning of the passage? Possibly... the scene is Jesus giving a turn signal for an entire religious structure. Do they introduce any doctrinal concepts that are contradicted by other parts of scripture? By no means. In that case, there is no real reason to question their validity. The same is true of Mark 16.

Adam



Lapidoth -> RE: John 5:3-4 (7/25/2008 12:16:20 PM)

This would all depend on the view we look at these things with.

One could see the man sick for 38 years as a Jew sitting at the
pagan pool on Friday nights and then attending synagogue on
Sabbath. That would be relative to the modern Christians. Living
in the world on Friday or through-out the week and then attending
church on Sunday.

Funny thing about this thread. I had just studied this chapter, ran
across this thread, and the next night saw an old rerun of the Loretta
Young Show, showing the grotto in Lourdes, France. I may be wrong
about the town. Where a kid had an apparition of Mary. They turned
it into a tourist site and/or place for adherents to go to for healing.

One scene was people carrying a person on a litter into a "pool" of
water expecting to get healed by the holy water bath. Right then,
I could picture the Pool of Bethsaida.

Rome later built a full temple to the Greek god of healing after they
destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple.

I can also assume that the stirring of the water could be a semi/hot
spring. When the water bubbled, they entered thinking to get healed.
Kinda like Lakeland, people flying in from all over the world to get
healed, only to leave in absolute confusion. But they got their "bam."

The history is new to us, but didn't need to be written to those of the
day and knew what everything meant as they read it.



Lapidoth -> RE: John 5:3-4 (7/25/2008 12:29:17 PM)

Here's a diagram of the pagan pools.

pool

Grotto Mass

Lourdes pool



deborlie -> RE: John 5:3-4 (7/25/2008 4:28:05 PM)

I am being educated..........THANK YOU!



colliefan -> RE: John 5:3-4 (7/26/2008 8:50:58 PM)

My concern is that people take passages not found in the originals and base doctrine on these passages. This is what gives us snake handlers and tricksters such as Bentley that bring shame and reproach on the Body of Christ.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: John 5:3-4 (7/27/2008 3:34:59 AM)

Will people please let the Todd Bently thing drop? If you want to complain about him, please take it to the already lengthy thread about him. I believe the point of this thread is whether or not the verses of John 5 in question are a necessity or a hindrance to the point of the text.

Pardon my temper...

Adam



Lapidoth -> RE: John 5:3-4 (7/28/2008 3:06:50 PM)

quote:

The Myth: Asclepius is the god of Healing. He is the son of Apollo and the nymph, Coronis. While pregnant with Asclepius, Coronis secretly took a second, mortal lover. When Apollo found out, he sent Artemis to kill her. While burning on the funeral pyre, Apollo felt pity and rescued the unborn child from the corpse. Asclepius was taught about medicine and healing by the wise centaur, Cheiron, and became so skilled in it that he succeeded in bringing one of his patients back from the dead. Zeus felt that the immortality of the Gods was threatened and killed the healer with a thunderbolt. At Apollo's request, Asclepius was placed among the stars as Ophiuchus, the serpent-bearer.


Asclepius

quote:

The name Asclepius is in itself a description of the source of the inner healing power, although the understanding of this description has been lost ever since the allegorical gods were taught to be real gods in heaven by their self-appointed priests. The word is a compound formed of two separate words. The first is ask¿ meaning to work with raw materials, while the second word, lptos, has the meaning of being refined, threshed or winnowed. The meaning of the compound word has been lost to the majority of people over the last millennia who do not know about threshing of grain much less about the threshing and winnowing within the body that was once widely known. The physical description of Asclepius provided a clue to the ancients since the power of Asclepius was depicted as a serpent or snake coiled three times around a stick.[1]


As Inner Healing

quote:

Asklepios was a real physician who lived in Greece around 1200 BC, and through time, myth and legend, he became the Greek God of healing. This was an era when the use of herbal therapies was passed on from one generation to another as part of an oral tradition.

Asklepios was the first to record the herb, the dose, and the condition treated, as well as the final outcome. This made him the first to apply an empirical methodology to medicine. His following grew and flourished for a thousand years as patients were brought to temples of healing that followed his paradigm.


History

quote:

STATUES AND TEMPLES


Catholic Source



Lapidoth -> RE: John 5:3-4 (7/28/2008 3:58:22 PM)

Comparison to the myths and the ministry of Jesus.

HERE



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