If Abortion is Murder (Full Version)

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Roberta_ -> If Abortion is Murder (7/15/2008 7:15:49 PM)

If abortion is murder, should a woman who has had an abortion be sentenced to the same punishment as someone who murders a person outside of the womb?

What about the abortionist?

ETA - the word "had."

That explains why everyone thought I was talking in present tense. [8D]



kohls356 -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/15/2008 8:03:43 PM)

Murder is a crime, abortion unfortunately is legal so I a person wouldn't receive punishment for something that isn't illegal. It is a shame too that a lot of people don't see abortion as murder.

Of course I don't agree with that.



Roberta_ -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/15/2008 8:06:16 PM)

OK- so if abortion where to become illegal, do you think that the women who've had abortions should receive the same fate as murderers?



McFatty -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/15/2008 8:09:38 PM)

I don't see why they wouldn't, unless it was proven self defense.



Roberta_ -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/15/2008 8:12:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McFatty

I don't see why they wouldn't, unless it was proven self defense.


At 1.5 million abortions a year, that's an awful lot of women to prosecute for the last 30-something years.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/15/2008 8:13:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DenimDiva

If abortion is murder, should a woman who has an abortion be sentenced to the same punishment as someone who murders a person outside of the womb?

What about the abortionist?


Of course... Murder is murder... When you hire someone to murder another person outside the womb all parties involed are normally charged with murder...


John



SovereignIsHe -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/15/2008 8:14:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DenimDiva

quote:

ORIGINAL: McFatty

I don't see why they wouldn't, unless it was proven self defense.


At 1.5 million abortions a year, that's an awful lot of women to prosecute for the last 30-something years.


Generally you cannot grandfather a crime...

John



SovereignIsHe -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/15/2008 8:15:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McFatty

I don't see why they wouldn't, unless it was proven self defense.



I have seen the agrument for self defense in regards to abortion... It's wonderful to read one making the argument that the unborn is with malice attempting to kill the mother...

John



ddave12000 -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/15/2008 8:55:19 PM)

I'm sure the story is more complicated overall than I'm making it, but I'm pretty sure that Scott Peterson was convicted of killing both his wife and unborn child. I always wondered why would he even be charged with the crime of murdering his child when women do it every day legally? Not that I'm endorsing what that guy did, just making the point that I think abortion is murder.



Roberta_ -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/15/2008 8:58:34 PM)

I wondered that too about the Peterson case.



Peter_Gunn -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/15/2008 9:49:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DenimDiva

If abortion is murder, should a woman who has an abortion be sentenced to the same punishment as someone who murders a person outside of the womb?

What about the abortionist?


Yep, both of them should be tried for Murder One.



Roberta_ -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/15/2008 9:51:08 PM)

Would you want all of the women who've had abortions to be tried or would you allow for some cases to go unpunished ---- like say a woman who had one 30 years ago and is now in her 70s ----- or something along those lines.



Peter_Gunn -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/15/2008 9:57:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DenimDiva

Would you want all of the women who've had abortions to be tried or would you allow for some cases to go unpunished ---- like say a woman who had one 30 years ago and is now in her 70s ----- or something along those lines.


While I believe there is no statute of limitations for murder, I'd say something that happened that long ago could not practically be tried.

And the numbers are simply too overwhelming.

In a perfect world, it wouldn't even be legal. But since it is, making it illegal and charging all involved with murder from here on, would have to suffice for me.



Roberta_ -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/15/2008 10:04:48 PM)

Yes, the numbers are huge. That tells me that this is more of a heart issue than a legal issue, but I've said that for years.



evry1needsgod -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/15/2008 10:32:55 PM)

In God's eyes, they would be accountable. Actually, whether or not abortion is legal, they are still accountable to God.

As for the answer to the OP's questions...I think Peter_Gunn said it perfectly. The numbers are too astronomical to be fair in judgment. Do they deserve punishment? I believe so, but that is as far as I could go. If there was some way to make it practical, then yes, I would defend punishing them. But again, the numbers are too large to be fair in the punishment for all involved.



Roberta_ -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/15/2008 11:13:00 PM)

Practical? We wouldn't punish murderers because it's not practical?



solo_soprano22 -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/15/2008 11:21:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DenimDiva

Yes, the numbers are huge. That tells me that this is more of a heart issue than a legal issue, but I've said that for years.


I think it is a heart issue (but maybe in a different way). If there were some way to get everyone to believe in their heart that abortion is the exact same thing as any murder, I think there would be fewer of them. But not eveyone believes this in their heart of hearts; not everyone will. (This is just my opinion; I never said it was a fact. [8D]) Making it illegal won't make everyone think it's murder (and it probably won't change the heart), although you would be able to punish people then.



evry1needsgod -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/15/2008 11:22:33 PM)

quote:

Practical? We wouldn't punish murderers because it's not practical?


No, we wouldn't punish them because it would be nearly impossible to. However, I am only speaking of the abortions BEFORE abortion becomes illegal. I would definitely make it a punishable act from the point of illegality onward, but not before. IOW, I think we would be forced to grandfather those who had abortions before it became illegal.



Roberta_ -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/15/2008 11:23:07 PM)

Would it be a good or bad thing to punish those women and the abortionist?



evry1needsgod -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/15/2008 11:35:44 PM)

quote:

Would it be a good or bad thing to punish those women and the abortionist?


Couple of questions.

Is this question direct to me?

Which women are you speaking of? Women before abortion becomes illegal?



momma_bee -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 6:24:25 AM)

To further muddy the waters...

Is declaring abortion illegal the same as declaring it murder - from the courts POV?

I can see an argument being made that is is legally manslaughter. After all, hormones are in play, there is familial stressors, the accused wasn't thinking clearly...I can hear the defense attorney now.

If it is declared illegal today, you cannot proscute someone who had one yesterday (if Roe v Wade was overturned)



Dona Nobis Pacem -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 7:25:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DenimDiva

OK- so if abortion where to become illegal, do you think that the women who've had abortions should receive the same fate as murderers?



How could they when it is legal?

Check the Constitution, Article I Section IX
"No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed."


Now once it became illegal, then I would argue yes, both the woman and the abortionist should receive the same fate.


Peace,
DNP



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 8:22:22 AM)

I have a question--doesn't intent make a difference, when charges are considered?

I know a lot of young women, even Christians, have been completely brainwashed into thinking that what is being "removed" is not a baby, or even alive, at least not to a certain point. Others are forced into it, manipulated into it, decieved into it.

I think the first people to be prosecuted are the ones running abortion mills and actually performing the abortions, telling girls it's no big deal, it's not a baby, it won't hurt, it'll save your future, etc.



evry1needsgod -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 12:39:36 PM)

quote:

I have a question--doesn't intent make a difference, when charges are considered?

I know a lot of young women, even Christians, have been completely brainwashed into thinking that what is being "removed" is not a baby, or even alive, at least not to a certain point. Others are forced into it, manipulated into it, decieved into it.

I think the first people to be prosecuted are the ones running abortion mills and actually performing the abortions, telling girls it's no big deal, it's not a baby, it won't hurt, it'll save your future, etc.


At first this sounds right, but really this is taking away the accountability of one's free-will. People are deceived and manipulated into murdering someone in cold blood all the time. That is what gangs here in Chicago ask newbies to do. But, in God's eyes, no amount of peer pressure or deceit justifies their actions, and they are as guilty of murder and a serial killer, and are therefore just as deserving of punishment as anyone else. That's just my 2 cents.



Zhi -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 12:53:01 PM)

Given our Constitution, this is kind of a silly question.

We have explicit protection against "ex post facto" (after the fact) law, so any woman who had an abortion prior to a law making it illegal would not be prosecutable.

The law making it illegal would have to specify the type of crime involved, and therefore the appropriate punishment, for any woman having an abortion after the law making it illegal.

So, until such a law is passed, the question can't be answered.



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