1 John Passage 5:16-17 (Full Version)

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asmsw -> 1 John Passage 5:16-17 (7/15/2008 4:11:54 AM)

Here is the quote and it is NIV.

"If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All Wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death."

I guess I am wondering the interpretation of this.

My Idea is that John is talking about Suicide as the sin that leads to death. And I think he is meaning the sin that leads DIRECTLY to death.

Because as we all should know, ALL sin leads to death, but here he is talking about a specific sin that leads to death. While he also says there is sin that does not lead to death.

I am assuming he is talking about Suicide. Is this correct?

What is it?

Also interesting that John says that "I am not saying that he should pray about that" regarding the sin that leads to death.

Interesting, because assuming it's suicide.

Firstly when you here of someone you know commiting suicide, the act is over and done with. There's nothing you can do, there's nothing that person can do to undo their suicide. The act is completed. Therefore it sounds like he is saying there is no use in praying one who has ended his life (suicide).

Interesting I know that in Judaism there is a similiar type of thing, if someone did an act, say you saw someone steal something.

You wouldn't pray to God about how you wish the person didn't steal that thing. It's of no use, it happened. You would instead direct your prayers to something that can actually happen in the future.

You may pray that the thief sees the error of his ways and returns the stolen item.



Thank you in advance.


Ehud



ThursdaysChild -> RE: 1 John Passage 5:16-17 (7/15/2008 8:57:02 AM)

I don't think it's talking about suicide. Suicide isn't necessarily a sin...many times it's the result of an illness where the person isn't in complete control of all his/her mental faculties.

I assumed that this was a sin such as would leave a person completely cut off from God and His mercy, such as leading others away from faith.

I'd be interested in reading others' posts on this.



Bluethread -> RE: 1 John Passage 5:16-17 (7/15/2008 1:11:24 PM)

I believe this is the sin of outright rebellion. Though all sin is a form of rebellion against Adonai, most of it is out of ignorance or selfishness. Also, Adonai did turn Saul(Paul) when he was actively seeking to have those how followed Yeshua thrown out of the synagogue, if not put to death. However, a person in that state is in Adonai's hands and can only be turned by Him. As Yeshua told the disciples when he sent them out before His death; If they will not accept you, shake the dust from your feet and move on. You will not run out of cities before Adonai establishes His kingdom. (Paraphrase Mine)



LCannon -> RE: 1 John Passage 5:16-17 (7/15/2008 1:59:12 PM)

The failure to appropriate Jesus' sacrifice/obedience in arrogance and unbelief is the sin 'unto death' for it separates us(and the universe) from Jesus' Victory.



OleFitzHi -> RE: 1 John Passage 5:16-17 (7/16/2008 10:06:07 PM)

I don't interpret as regarding suicide. I think there are sins for which God will take you out. He might even call a believer home before he gets to deep into some sin.



GrahamCracker -> RE: 1 John Passage 5:16-17 (7/17/2008 10:14:50 AM)

quote:

"If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All Wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death."

I guess I am wondering the interpretation of this.

My Idea is that John is talking about Suicide as the sin that leads to death. And I think he is meaning the sin that leads DIRECTLY to death.

Because as we all should know, ALL sin leads to death, but here he is talking about a specific sin that leads to death. While he also says there is sin that does not lead to death.


I don't think it is talking about suicide. Because, no scripture refers to suicide as being especially worse than any other sin.

Some sin/sins are so particularly prolonged in spite of warnings to avoid them, that God takes their life. At some point, there is no reason to pray for them because God will not not allow them to remain living. I don't think it refers to a specific sin.



BibleL7 -> RE: 1 John Passage 5:16-17 (7/19/2008 12:15:06 AM)

None of the Scriptures referenced to that passage refer to suicide what so ever. There are references to sins that did not carry the sentence of death in OT. There are references to sin that caused the LORD to turn away from Israel. There is reference to the unforgivable sin. This has more to do with praying with the Lord's will to forgive. Absolutely not reference to suicide and if it were just physical death many sins can lead to death, murder which calls for the life of the murderer, sexual sin that leads to death, etc. Seems you are looking to connect something that does not connect.



makarizo -> RE: 1 John Passage 5:16-17 (7/20/2008 7:14:15 AM)

so many theories as to what this passage means.
I like this one:
3. The sin unto death means a case of transgression, particularly of grievous backsliding from the life and power of godliness, which God determines to punish with temporal death, while at the same time he extends mercy to the penitent soul. The disobedient prophet, 1 Kings 13:1-32, is, on this interpretation, a case in point: many others occur in the history of the Church, and of every religious community. The sin not unto death is any sin which God does not choose thus to punish. This view of the subject is that taken by the late Rev. J. Wesley, in a sermon entitled, A Call to Backsliders.
-Adam Clarke's bible commentary -



TJO5 -> RE: 1 John Passage 5:16-17 (7/20/2008 9:22:51 AM)

quote:

asmsw

My Idea is that John is talking about Suicide as the sin that leads to death. And I think he is meaning the sin that leads DIRECTLY to death.

Because as we all should know, ALL sin leads to death, but here he is talking about a specific sin that leads to death. While he also says there is sin that does not lead to death.

I am assuming he is talking about Suicide. Is this correct?

What is it?


I think it is more on the lines of extreme apostasy, a falling away from the faith,when it gets to the point where the person will end up blaspheming the Holy Spirit. At that point there is no possibility to lead them back to repentance.

Matthew 12:31 " Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy [against] the Spirit will not be forgiven men.

Heb. 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put [Him] to an open shame.

Yours in Christ,
T.J.



MrFribbles -> RE: 1 John Passage 5:16-17 (7/20/2008 10:04:08 AM)

quote:

I think it is more on the lines of extreme apostasy, a falling away from the faith,when it gets to the point where the person will end up blaspheming the Holy Spirit.


I think you're definitely on the right track.

When you're considering this passage, it must be taken in the context of the entire book of 1 John. 1 John was written as an attack against false teachers (most likely some form of proto-gnostics, but John never says for sure) that were teaching false doctrines concerning sin, forgiveness, and the person of Christ. The sin John is addressing is the sin they were committing - namely, leading others astray with teachings that were corrupting the gospel, despite having been taught the truth of the real gospel.
I did extensive study on this passage in the Greek, and I came to the conclusion that this verse is very often mistranslated. I do not believe that it is a "sin unto death," but rather a "sin in the realm of death." Consider the manner in which John uses contrasts throughout the book - light and dark, truth and falsehood, and life and death. He is explaining to his readers that those who are committing sins that can only be done by those who dwell in the realm of death (that is, they are unsaved and have blatantly rebelled against Christ) do not need to be prayed for. He does not forbid prayers for such individuals, but he does say there is no need to pray for them.



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