RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle during youth conference
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/17/2008 7:31:26 PM
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clayton994
Posts: 72
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Bendigo, Australia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SteveSund
There has been some good discussion on this topic, but there also has been some ridiculous strawman arguments. Equating a parent's decision to let a child operate a gun with babies being allowed to own guns is just plain silly. Where has anyone on this forum suggested a gun being given to a baby?
I guess it must have been the strawman who equated children & guns with babies & guns. If you read my reply to John, you would have seen that I wasnt equating the two, but rather trying to ascertain exactly when John believed that children were suddenly mature enough to handle a gun, since that wasn't clear to me. My point was that everybody imposes an age or level of maturity as to when it is safe for a young person to handle a gun - John and I just place it at different points.
Cheers,
Clayton.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/17/2008 7:44:25 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1984
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Anything from scripture to support that view?
quote:
"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
-Matt. 26:52
Yes, it's subject to interpretation, but I think it may imply that Jesus might not be such a gun nut that he would want to attract attention to himself by giving away an assault rifle. There's being famous, and then there's being infamous, ya know.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/17/2008 8:03:34 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 7000
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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Posting blind:
I would think it would be illegal to give a gun to a minor. So, I'm assuming that it would be given to one of the parents instead. I don't see a problem with it.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/17/2008 8:47:35 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2537
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Anything from scripture to support that view?
quote:
"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
-Matt. 26:52
Yes, it's subject to interpretation, but I think it may imply that Jesus might not be such a gun nut that he would want to attract attention to himself by giving away an assault rifle. There's being famous, and then there's being infamous, ya know.
And in Luke Jesus said "Stop, no more of this!" for that same incident.
Now I challenge you John to come up with an incident in the NEW TESTAMENT where any apostle or disciple used a weapon other than this incident in the Garden of Gethsemane where Jesus implicitly told him to stop and healed the damage done by the weapon.
I won't hold my breath because there are none!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/17/2008 9:20:20 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Anything from scripture to support that view?
quote:
"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
-Matt. 26:52
Yes, it's subject to interpretation, but I think it may imply that Jesus might not be such a gun nut that he would want to attract attention to himself by giving away an assault rifle. There's being famous, and then there's being infamous, ya know.
Those who put their faith in the sword is the issue... Peter had a issue with Jesus giving himself up and took matters into his own hands... Showing little or no faith...
Btw.... Wasn't in Jesus who told them to acquire the sword in the first place?
John
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/17/2008 9:23:19 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
And in Luke Jesus said "Stop, no more of this!" for that same incident.
Why did Jesus rebuke Peter? For the act of using the sword itself, or why he did so?
quote:
Now I challenge you John to come up with an incident in the NEW TESTAMENT where any apostle or disciple used a weapon other than this incident in the Garden of Gethsemane where Jesus implicitly told him to stop and healed the damage done by the weapon.
I won't hold my breath because there are none!
What does that have to do with the matter at hand? Jesus told them to acquire the weapon in the first place... By all means connect the dots... What does Jesus dealing with Peter's lack of faith have to do with a church giving away a gun?
John
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/17/2008 10:05:02 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2537
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
What does that have to do with the matter at hand?
Just putting your own question to you! Anything from scripture to support that view?
quote:
Jesus told them to acquire the weapon in the first place... By all means connect the dots... What does Jesus dealing with Peter's lack of faith have to do with a church giving away a gun?
John
The quote you love to use that is taken out of context so very badly. Luke 22:36 The disciples only had two swords among them (Verse 38) and Jesus said, "It is enough!" Two swords for 12 people is enough? Why? Because He was telling them FIGURATIVELY to be prepared to face the world's hostility. Otherwise, wouldn't He be telling all of them to get swords? (Two isn't enough) Also how come swords get turned into plowshares if we are supposed to be practicing a militant Christianity by relying on weapons to give us security?
Earlier in 21:19 Jesus said, "By your PERSERVERANCE you will secure your lives!" No mention of weapons there!
Again put up a Bible quote where the apostles or disciples did violence to anyone in the NT. Did they resist their persecutors with those swords or did God do the fighting for them by freeing them from jail, etc.
Why isn't the grace and providence of God good enough?
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/17/2008 11:06:27 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2537
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Just putting your own question to you! Anything from scripture to support that view?
You deny Peter had a pride issue and didn't want Jesus to turn himself over to those who sought to take his life... Your view that the use of the sword itself being the issue isn't supported...
I knew you couldn't find one!
quote:
The quote you love to use that is taken out of context so very badly. Luke 22:36 The disciples only had two swords among them (Verse 38) and Jesus said, "It is enough!" Two swords for 12 people is enough? Why? Because He was telling them FIGURATIVELY to be prepared to face the world's hostility. Otherwise, wouldn't He be telling all of them to get swords? (Two isn't enough)
quote:
I don't agree its simply figuratively...
Your viewpoint doesn't agree with ANY Biblical commentators on that verse. LINK Scroll down to section entitled "parallel commentaries". So I guess it is just "your opinion".
quote:
quote:
Also how come swords get turned into plowshares if we are supposed to be practicing a militant Christianity by relying on weapons to give us security?
What is practicing a militant Christianity?
Relying on violence as our protection in this world instead of the power of God.
quote:
Earlier in 21:19 Jesus said, "By your PERSERVERANCE you will secure your lives!" No mention of weapons there!
quote:
He doesn't mention breathing either.... 
NO COMMENT!
quote:
quote:
Again put up a Bible quote where the apostles or disciples did violence to anyone in the NT. Did they resist their persecutors with those swords or did God do the fighting for them by freeing them from jail, etc.
That wasn't their purpose... Something coming after the ...? Or are you uncomfortable having to fully explain yourself and not rely solely on hyperbole?
quote:
quote:
Why isn't the grace and providence of God good enough?
As mentioned before, did David simply pray that Goliath would fall, No... Was is faith in his ability to sling the rock, no.... It was fully in God...
John
Exactly, David relied on the grace and providence of God. He had faith that his little sling (which he previously used to chase away predators from his sheep) could fell a giant to show the Philistines that Yahweh was the True God! But you're still reverting back to the OT!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/18/2008 1:15:55 AM
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clayton994
Posts: 72
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Bendigo, Australia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
Jesus told them to acquire the weapon in the first place... By all means connect the dots... What does Jesus dealing with Peter's lack of faith have to do with a church giving away a gun?
John
The quote you love to use that is taken out of context so very badly. Luke 22:36 The disciples only had two swords among them (Verse 38) and Jesus said, "It is enough!" Two swords for 12 people is enough? Why? Because He was telling them FIGURATIVELY to be prepared to face the world's hostility. Otherwise, wouldn't He be telling all of them to get swords? (Two isn't enough) Also how come swords get turned into plowshares if we are supposed to be practicing a militant Christianity by relying on weapons to give us security?
Earlier in 21:19 Jesus said, "By your PERSERVERANCE you will secure your lives!" No mention of weapons there!
Again put up a Bible quote where the apostles or disciples did violence to anyone in the NT. Did they resist their persecutors with those swords or did God do the fighting for them by freeing them from jail, etc.
Why isn't the grace and providence of God good enough?
Great post mapachito, and very clearly put, I think. My own thoughts exactly...
Cheers,
Clayton.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/18/2008 1:18:53 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
Jesus told them to acquire the weapon in the first place... By all means connect the dots... What does Jesus dealing with Peter's lack of faith have to do with a church giving away a gun?
John
The quote you love to use that is taken out of context so very badly. Luke 22:36 The disciples only had two swords among them (Verse 38) and Jesus said, "It is enough!" Two swords for 12 people is enough? Why? Because He was telling them FIGURATIVELY to be prepared to face the world's hostility. Otherwise, wouldn't He be telling all of them to get swords? (Two isn't enough) Also how come swords get turned into plowshares if we are supposed to be practicing a militant Christianity by relying on weapons to give us security?
Earlier in 21:19 Jesus said, "By your PERSERVERANCE you will secure your lives!" No mention of weapons there!
Again put up a Bible quote where the apostles or disciples did violence to anyone in the NT. Did they resist their persecutors with those swords or did God do the fighting for them by freeing them from jail, etc.
Why isn't the grace and providence of God good enough?
Great post mapachito, and very clearly put, I think. My own thoughts exactly...
Cheers,
Clayton.
Her post runs into a problem if we apply David and his actions with Goliath...
John
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/18/2008 1:50:52 AM
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clayton994
Posts: 72
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Bendigo, Australia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Her post runs into a problem if we apply David and his actions with Goliath...
John
Well, I thought we all basically agreed on that one. You said "As mentioned before, did David simply pray that Goliath would fall? No... Was is faith in his ability to sling the rock? No.... It was fully in God... ". In response, Mapachito said "Exactly, David relied on the grace and providence of God". I agree with both of you. Where's the problem?
Cheers,
Clayton.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/18/2008 1:55:34 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Her post runs into a problem if we apply David and his actions with Goliath...
John
Well, I thought we all basically agreed on that one. You said "As mentioned before, did David simply pray that Goliath would fall? No... Was is faith in his ability to sling the rock? No.... It was fully in God... ". In response, Mapachito said "Exactly, David relied on the grace and providence of God". I agree with both of you. Where's the problem?
Cheers,
Clayton.
Because somehow it's now an issue when a Christian having their faith in God uses a weapon to defend themselves... Some strange idea that faith has morphed since David's time...
John
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/18/2008 2:21:03 AM
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clayton994
Posts: 72
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Bendigo, Australia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Her post runs into a problem if we apply David and his actions with Goliath...
John
Well, I thought we all basically agreed on that one. You said "As mentioned before, did David simply pray that Goliath would fall? No... Was is faith in his ability to sling the rock? No.... It was fully in God... ". In response, Mapachito said "Exactly, David relied on the grace and providence of God". I agree with both of you. Where's the problem?
Cheers,
Clayton.
Because somehow it's now an issue when a Christian having their faith in God uses a weapon to defend themselves... Some strange idea that faith has morphed since David's time...
John
Well, I certainly don't have a problem with a Christian using a weapon to defend themselves, and I didn't get that from what Mapachito wrote either. The problem was where we rely on the weapon over and above God. I think it was you who said earlier (perhaps in another thread?) that David was successful because he trusted in the Rock, not the rock. Anyway, I don't want to get into this particular debate any further because it's seriously getting off-topic, and I think we basically agree regardless...
Cheers,
Clayton.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/18/2008 2:39:33 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Her post runs into a problem if we apply David and his actions with Goliath...
John
Well, I thought we all basically agreed on that one. You said "As mentioned before, did David simply pray that Goliath would fall? No... Was is faith in his ability to sling the rock? No.... It was fully in God... ". In response, Mapachito said "Exactly, David relied on the grace and providence of God". I agree with both of you. Where's the problem?
Cheers,
Clayton.
Because somehow it's now an issue when a Christian having their faith in God uses a weapon to defend themselves... Some strange idea that faith has morphed since David's time...
John
Well, I certainly don't have a problem with a Christian using a weapon to defend themselves, and I didn't get that from what Mapachito wrote either. The problem was where we rely on the weapon over and above God. I think it was you who said earlier (perhaps in another thread?) that David was successful because he trusted in the Rock, not the rock. Anyway, I don't want to get into this particular debate any further because it's seriously getting off-topic, and I think we basically agree regardless...
Cheers,
Clayton.
She said:
Relying on violence as our protection in this world instead of the power of God.
Exactly, David relied on the grace and providence of God. He had faith that his little sling (which he previously used to chase away predators from his sheep) could fell a giant to show the Philistines that Yahweh was the True God! But you're still reverting back to the OT!
John
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/18/2008 10:06:01 AM
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ta_mosquito
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/18/2008 10:31:00 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2537
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
I knew you couldn't find one!
I am still waiting for you to show what you posted has to do with the matter at hand...
I have tried in many different ways but you keep missing the point.
quote:
quote:
Your viewpoint doesn't agree with ANY Biblical commentators on that verse. LINK Scroll down to section entitled "parallel commentaries". So I guess it is just "your opinion".
No more or less than those who wrote the commentaries... Those were real swords...
And Jesus promptly cut them off with His "It is enough" statement to show them this line of thinking (the literal) was not where He was going with that! If it were meant literally then 2 swords to protect the whole bunch was enough.
The people that write these commentaries are people who have done extensive study in the Word and history to help us not take things in the Bible out of context. This is in agreement with 1 Corinthians 12:4-11. And Philip's instruction of the Ethiopian eunuch. (Acts 8:31) Or are we all supposed to be adherents to the beliefs of John not Jesus?
quote:
quote:
Relying on violence as our protection in this world instead of the power of God.
I'll let you deal with your dilemma regarding David's actions with Goliath...
What dilemma? He was defending God with his ancient BB gun against a giant. He even refused to wear Saul's armor because he trusted in God's power more. David even said, "You come against me with sword and spear and scimitar, but I come against you in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel that you have insulted." God's power was David's boast not his weapon!
quote:
quote:
Something coming after the ...?
Why? We are speaking of people who a specific duty...
 You're doing it again..................
quote:
quote:
Or are you uncomfortable having to fully explain yourself and not rely solely on hyperbole?
Btw...Hyperbole is people posting stories of threats to the President and talk of the Secret Service... 
It's relying on platitudes and slogans as well!
quote:
quote:
Exactly, David relied on the grace and providence of God. He had faith that his little sling (which he previously used to chase away predators from his sheep) could fell a giant to show the Philistines that Yahweh was the True God! But you're still reverting back to the OT!
I wasn't aware that the OT has become invalid... Faith didn't morph into something else in the NT.. You can believe more than half the bible isn't valid, but I perfer not to since all scripture is said to be for reproof, doctrine...
John
2 Corinthians 5:17
"So whoever is in Christ is a new creation: the old things have passed away: behold, new things have come." Or are you still offering cereal offerings for your sins?
Jesus changed the way we are supposed to do things and the preconceptions people had through their misuse of the law and the prophets.
One example of how He drastically changed things was Matthew 5:21-48 where He related the Spirit of certain Commandments Next He related the two "greatest Commandments" (loving God with heart, mind, and soul and loving your neighbor as yourself) in Matthew 22:37-40 where He filled in all the loopholes in the law that the Pharisees created through their rationalization, worldly expediency and legalistic approach to God.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/18/2008 2:56:29 PM
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SteveSund
Posts: 451
Joined: 11/8/2005
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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Romans 12:18 says:
quote:
If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live in peace with everyone
This implies where there may be situations where peaceful coexistence is not possible. We could go areound and around on this. I think if you look at the Bible as a whole, it is difficult (IMO) to take the position that violence is never justified. Personally, I think any right to self-defense must be balanced with a responsibility to do so as a last resort and only when there are no other viable options.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/18/2008 4:19:40 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2537
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SteveSund
Romans 12:18 says:
quote:
If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live in peace with everyone
This implies where there may be situations where peaceful coexistence is not possible. We could go areound and around on this. I think if you look at the Bible as a whole, it is difficult (IMO) to take the position that violence is never justified. Personally, I think any right to self-defense must be balanced with a responsibility to do so as a last resort and only when there are no other viable options.
And that sounds very reasonable to me too!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/22/2008 1:33:07 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
I have tried in many different ways but you keep missing the point.
What exactly is your point?
quote:
And Jesus promptly cut them off with His "It is enough" statement to show them this line of thinking (the literal) was not where He was going with that! If it were meant literally then 2 swords to protect the whole bunch was enough.
Yes, but would Jesus command them to do something unlawful? I don't believe so...
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The people that write these commentaries are people who have done extensive study in the Word and history to help us not take things in the Bible out of context.
Interesting given your use of 2 Corinthians 5:17 and other scriptures in the past...
quote:
What dilemma? He was defending God with his ancient BB gun against a giant. He even refused to wear Saul's armor because he trusted in God's power more. David even said, "You come against me with sword and spear and scimitar, but I come against you in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel that you have insulted." God's power was David's boast not his weapon!
Thanks for making my point... A Christain can act in the same righteous manner David, even with a gun...
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You're doing it again..................
Speaking the truth, yep...
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It's relying on platitudes and slogans as well!
For instance?
quote:
2 Corinthians 5:17
"So whoever is in Christ is a new creation: the old things have passed away: behold, new things have come." Or are you still offering cereal offerings for your sins?
The old things here is sin... We are made a new creature in Christ... What does that have to do with David having faith in God while using a weapon to kill someone?
quote:
Jesus changed the way we are supposed to do things and the preconceptions people had through their misuse of the law and the prophets.
David didn't abuse the law like those you are speaking of and there is nothing wrong with what is he did in God's word...
quote:
One example of how He drastically changed things was Matthew 5:21-48 where He related the Spirit of certain Commandments Next He related the two "greatest Commandments" (loving God with heart, mind, and soul and loving your neighbor as yourself) in Matthew 22:37-40 where He filled in all the loopholes in the law that the Pharisees created through their rationalization, worldly expediency and legalistic approach to God.
Jesus was just summing up the Ten with Two...
How does on love the Lord with all their heart... Doing the following...
"And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God…
ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'
TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'
THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'
How does one love their neighbor?
By doing the following for starters...
FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'
SIX: 'You shall not murder.'
SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'
EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'
NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'
TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'
Btw... Jesus didn't make up anything new, like you said He simply fixed what man had perverted...
Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.
John
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/22/2008 1:35:03 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: SteveSund
Romans 12:18 says:
quote:
If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live in peace with everyone
This implies where there may be situations where peaceful coexistence is not possible. We could go areound and around on this. I think if you look at the Bible as a whole, it is difficult (IMO) to take the position that violence is never justified. Personally, I think any right to self-defense must be balanced with a responsibility to do so as a last resort and only when there are no other viable options.
And that sounds very reasonable to me too!
And since guns are not Christian in your view what are we supposed to do if we are left with no other recourse but to defend ourselves?
John
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/22/2008 8:37:06 AM
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SteveSund
Posts: 451
Joined: 11/8/2005
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: mapachito13
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ORIGINAL: SteveSund
Romans 12:18 says:
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If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live in peace with everyone
This implies where there may be situations where peaceful coexistence is not possible. We could go areound and around on this. I think if you look at the Bible as a whole, it is difficult (IMO) to take the position that violence is never justified. Personally, I think any right to self-defense must be balanced with a responsibility to do so as a last resort and only when there are no other viable options.
And that sounds very reasonable to me too!
And since guns are not Christian in your view what are we supposed to do if we are left with no other recourse but to defend ourselves?
John
I have no problem with using a gun for self-defense.
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