RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle during youth conference
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 11:43:43 PM
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clayton994
Posts: 72
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Bendigo, Australia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
Well, you're saying that it's OK for children to handle guns because, as a group, they are not immature.
I believe to say all children are not mature enough to handle a gun isn't valid... That doesn't equate to all children having the the maturty to handle them. Not all adults do, so of course all children don't... I have had to remove police from the firing range because they refused to obey the rules... As a group children follow the rules more than the adults do...
John
Well, I never actually said that all children are not mature enough to handle a gun. I'm sure that many children are - probably even most children. However, for the sake and safety of those children who aren't mature enough to handle a gun, I personally believe it's better for all children to at least be supervised by an adult if they have a gun in their hands. As I understood it, the church was wanting to giving a gun to a child to use as he/she pleased, which would presumably be at the discretion of his/her parents. Most parents, I'm sure, would be very responsible about it if their child won a gun, but not necessarily all parents, and not all children obey their parents either.
Also, I didn't seriously believe that you thought it would be OK for a baby to handle a gun - I was just trying to work out when you thought that children were mature enough, and I thank you for answering the question.
Cheers,
Clayton.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 11:46:04 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Lets see?Let us call it an ATF church, since Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms are all regulated by the same agency. John so glad you have the Beaver Cleaver Family, and no problems like mine. I tell you something the Bible says foolishness is bound in the Heart of a child. Anyone with two hands, two legs, and half a brain knows a childs brain is not fully developed until age 18-20. That is why a child cannot buy a gun, a car, beer, tobbaco. I remember when I was a child my cousins, had BB and pellet guns at my grandma Smiths house, they nailed a bird to a tree, and executed it. It still bothers me many, many, years latter. I also have friends whose son they did not even know was suicidal, age 13, blew his brains out with his gun, they found brain matter in Christmas ornaments the next Christmas. My girls three of them, do not care about guns. Children, do not need guns, it is such it foolish to give a child one. Adults who are responsible would not give a child a gun. I think it great that adults that are qualified have the right to bear arms, that is a great freedom, that should never be taken away. Anyway " You will shoot your eye out kid."
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Well John lets give them a six pack of beer, they are not mature enough ubtil twenty-one, but hey parents permission. Why Not? How about tabbaco? cripture does not have anything about that. I know condoms why not?
Your emotional stance on the issues is my best rebuttal...
John
Lights is emotional because she cares about childrens' lives. I'm sure you do too, but in a different way. Because she cares in this way doesn't mean that her arguments and experiences aren't valid.
Cheers,
Clayton.
Her arguments are based on her experiences that she applies to all children... They do not represent the norm so it's not valid to apply them to everyone...
John
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 11:53:33 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
Well, I never actually said that all children are not mature enough to handle a gun.
Actually you did... From your post 46
As I understand it, Lights was merely pointing out that just as children aren't mature enough to handle condoms, alcohol, tobacco, nor are they mature enough to handle guns. If John believes that they are mature enough to handle guns, why not trust them with alcohol as well, for example. The issue here isn't the rights and wrongs of underage drink, sex or smoking vs. the rights and wrongs of gun safety through target shooting, but rather a question of maturity. I agree with Lights. I don't believe that children, as a group, are mature enough to handle guns, and am astounded by the number of people here who think otherwise, but I guess we're all different and come from different backgrounds and upbringings.
quote:
I'm sure that many children are - probably even most children. However, for the sake and safety of those children who aren't mature enough to handle a gun, I personally believe it's better for all children to at least be supervised by an adult if they have a gun in their hands.
I agree... My kids are always supervised...
John
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/17/2008 12:28:52 AM
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mapachito13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Her arguments are based on her experiences that she applies to all children... They do not represent the norm so it's not valid to apply them to everyone...
John
Over half (55%) of American households choose not to own one gun. So really her views are just as "normal" as you wanting to own one. If we want to be "technical" they are 5% more normal! 
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/17/2008 8:49:05 AM
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SteveSund
Posts: 450
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From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Her arguments are based on her experiences that she applies to all children... They do not represent the norm so it's not valid to apply them to everyone...
John
Over half (55%) of American households choose not to own one gun. So really her views are just as "normal" as you wanting to own one. If we want to be "technical" they are 5% more normal!
Where are you getting this from? Most of this data has a history of being seriously flawed because the BATF does not keep records of household gun ownership. There have been some surveys, but they are problematic because a significant number of gun owners will not disclose if they own guns to a stranger.
There has been some good discussion on this topic, but there also has been some ridiculous strawman arguments. Equating a parent's decision to let a child operate a gun with babies being allowed to own guns is just plain silly. Where has anyone on this forum suggested a gun being given to a baby?
As it has been pointed out numerous times, there is no way that it is legally possible to transfer possession of a gun to a minor, but people are assuming that is what would be happening in this case. Possession would go to a parent who would then be in a position to determine how much access would be allowed.
<i>I agree with Lights. I don't believe that children, as a group, are mature enough to handle guns, and am astounded by the number of people here who think otherwise, but I guess we're all different and come from different backgrounds and upbringings.</i>
Children are individuals and should be treated accordingly. People have already mentioned that stats in regards to accidents, so I am astounded that people still ignore facts and logic and assume they know what is best for all children under all circumstances.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/17/2008 10:26:52 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2537
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SteveSund
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Her arguments are based on her experiences that she applies to all children... They do not represent the norm so it's not valid to apply them to everyone...
John
Over half (55%) of American households choose not to own one gun. So really her views are just as "normal" as you wanting to own one. If we want to be "technical" they are 5% more normal!
Where are you getting this from? Most of this data has a history of being seriously flawed because the BATF does not keep records of household gun ownership. There have been some surveys, but they are problematic because a significant number of gun owners will not disclose if they own guns to a stranger.
There has been some good discussion on this topic, but there also has been some ridiculous strawman arguments. Equating a parent's decision to let a child operate a gun with babies being allowed to own guns is just plain silly. Where has anyone on this forum suggested a gun being given to a baby?
As it has been pointed out numerous times, there is no way that it is legally possible to transfer possession of a gun to a minor, but people are assuming that is what would be happening in this case. Possession would go to a parent who would then be in a position to determine how much access would be allowed.
<i>I agree with Lights. I don't believe that children, as a group, are mature enough to handle guns, and am astounded by the number of people here who think otherwise, but I guess we're all different and come from different backgrounds and upbringings.</i>
Children are individuals and should be treated accordingly. People have already mentioned that stats in regards to accidents, so I am astounded that people still ignore facts and logic and assume they know what is best for all children under all circumstances.
Here's the link where I got that number.
Found another one more statistically done with stated methodology in this Harris Poll. Although the data is 7 years old, it shows less people choosing to have a gun in their home since 1973. It now makes it 11% "more normal" NOT to own a gun. 
So can we concede that "normal" is a vague and relative term and has really no bearing on a person owning or not owning a gun?
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/17/2008 11:05:16 AM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Even so, I still think it sends a bad message about Christ given what is generally associated with semi-automatic rifles. Giving away a legitimate hunting rifle would be a better reflection of Christian values.
Given that 4 of the 6 hunting rifles I own are semi-automatic what is the personal criteria you are using for what constitutes a legitimate hunting rifle?
quote:
I don't think gimmicky giveaways are appropriate for churches anyway. It reflects the rampant materialism that we Christians decry in the secular world.
Laughable...
John
I appreciate your point on the rifle itself. I do not oppose gun ownership in general. We would simply have to disagree that it, or any other giveaway gimmick is an appropriate reflection of Christ.
It disturbs me you consider rampant materialism laughable. But the Hinn/Copeland philosophy has lots of support.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/17/2008 11:44:08 AM
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Zhi
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quote:
I appreciate your point on the rifle itself. I do not oppose gun ownership in general. We would simply have to disagree that it, or any other giveaway gimmick is an appropriate reflection of Christ.
It disturbs me you consider rampant materialism laughable. But the Hinn/Copeland philosophy has lots of support.
Again, it's a church camp shooting contest for kids prize. It's not a "come to church, win a car!" or something, which I would agree is odd and probably inappropriate.
We give away trophies to kids at things like the AWANA matchbox derby, we give Bibles, stickers and small toys to kids who "earn" them by memorizing Bible verses and such in our sunday school. I don't see anything particularly wrong with that.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/17/2008 12:54:59 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3948
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
I appreciate your point on the rifle itself. I do not oppose gun ownership in general. We would simply have to disagree that it, or any other giveaway gimmick is an appropriate reflection of Christ.
It disturbs me you consider rampant materialism laughable. But the Hinn/Copeland philosophy has lots of support.
Again, it's a church camp shooting contest for kids prize. It's not a "come to church, win a car!" or something, which I would agree is odd and probably inappropriate.
We give away trophies to kids at things like the AWANA matchbox derby, we give Bibles, stickers and small toys to kids who "earn" them by memorizing Bible verses and such in our sunday school. I don't see anything particularly wrong with that.
A "Turkey Shoot" (as it is called in the South) is different than a Bible drill. Marksmanship has nothing to do with Christ.
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Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/17/2008 1:47:28 PM
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Zhi
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quote:
A "Turkey Shoot" (as it is called in the South) is different than a Bible drill. Marksmanship has nothing to do with Christ.
Neither does making those little pinewood derby cars, but the AWANA kids do that.
Neither does making little pencil holders out of popsicle sticks, but we did that at church camp.
It's church camp. Not church.
Frankly if you're worried about tying Christianity to materialism, you should be FAR more concerned about kids getting toys for memorizing Bible verses during Sunday School than kids winning a gun at a vaguely church-related camp thing that happens to have a shooting contest along with its volleyball tournament, tug-o-war competition, and so forth.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/17/2008 2:31:44 PM
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michlang
Posts: 108
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I can't help but wonder if this issue simply comes down to regional differences. While I am sure it is viewed as purely natural and appropriate to own multiple guns as a child in more rural parts of our country, the same cannot be said of all places. When a person lives in a large city (and by that I mean a large city surrounded by other large cities where people have 10 cell phones instead of 10 guns) the idea of a church giving a gun away isn't wrong but just seems bizarre (or different). I understand the multiple perspectives given in this thread, and don't really see any of them as wrong, just as different responses (again, perhaps due to our regional varieties).
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It may be the case that the preferred philosopher of Bush is Jesus, but it is far from likely that the preferred president of Jesus is a politician who improperly enlists him as an ally in wars against the fundamentalists of other religions.-S. Zabala
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/17/2008 2:35:35 PM
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Zhi
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Rifle background checks are not a big deal. "Are you a registered felon? No? Here's your rifle."
I am not sure what you think "semi-automatic" is. Semi-automatic is a technical term referring to the fact that you do not need to chamber another round after you fire the first round. So, you operate the chambering device (usually a lever) for the first round, pull the trigger for the first shot, and the next round is automatically chambered by the force of the first shot so you don't have to pull the lever again. Semi-automatic rifles are very popular for hunting large game due to the fact that it often takes multiple shots to bring the animal down.
It's nothing like a full automatic. It still requires you to pull and release the trigger for each shot. It makes no indication regarding how many rounds you can fire. It is not easily (or legally) convertible to a full automatic, and most don't have the magazines to support full-auto even if you could. In fact, BATF regulations require that semi-auto rifles be manufactured in a way to purposefully make it almost impossible to convert to a full-auto.
If it makes you feel better, you can call it a "Self loading rifle" instead, as that lacks the "ooh scary" connotations that "semi-automatic" has.
The AR-15, specifically, is a small-caliber rifle (.223). It's primarily a target shooting/varmint rifle, as .223 is considered too small a caliber for deer hunting (it's far more likely to wound the animal, allowing it to escape and suffer a slow death, .24 and .30 are considered far more appropriate).
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/17/2008 2:43:12 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2537
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
Just out of curiousity, do those numbers include unregistered guns in the hands of felons, future criminals, etc.? I think that would have a significant effect on the percentage.
The poll was, as I understand it, a voluntary admission of owning a gun. The questions were pretty straightforward. "Do you own a gun? Do you own a rifle? Do you own a handgun? Etc." I don't think they asked the respondents if they were felons, so possibly a few felons said yes since they knew their resonse was not traceable to them by name.
They had a decline to state answer as well so maybe they wouldn't confirm nor deny that they owned a gun. I always laugh when I hear this response from someone in the news. They might as well just say yes!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/17/2008 3:08:43 PM
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jazzact13
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quote:
Jesus didn't own a sword and he reprimanded his disciples the only time they used theirs by saying "Stop, no more of this!" Luke 22:51
You should read the whole chapter. You will find this earlier in it.
quote:
35 Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered. 36 He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment." 38 The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied.
Seems Jesus wasn't as anti-sword as you would make Him out to be.
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But I believe in the separation of church and gun!
A few months ago, a church in Colorado had a man come in and start shooting at people. Thankfully, there was a guard there with a gun who was able to shoot the shooter before he oould do more damage then he already had.
Would the "separation of church and gun" have been a good thing on that day? Very likely not; rather, it was a good thing that the church had someone in it with a gun.
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there is no justice in the rhetoric of class hatred
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/17/2008 3:38:07 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2537
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jazzact13
quote:
Jesus didn't own a sword and he reprimanded his disciples the only time they used theirs by saying "Stop, no more of this!" Luke 22:51
You should read the whole chapter. You will find this earlier in it.
quote:
35 Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered. 36 He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment." 38 The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied.
Seems Jesus wasn't as anti-sword as you would make Him out to be.
quote:
But I believe in the separation of church and gun!
A few months ago, a church in Colorado had a man come in and start shooting at people. Thankfully, there was a guard there with a gun who was able to shoot the shooter before he oould do more damage then he already had.
Would the "separation of church and gun" have been a good thing on that day? Very likely not; rather, it was a good thing that the church had someone in it with a gun.
Maybe you should have read my whole post as well. I covered that!
Well then, we're back to we should all go to church packing in case one of those nuts, like in CO, shows up.
BTW, I've come to realize that we're of two camps on this issue and I don't see either side budging an inch!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/17/2008 3:59:47 PM
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SteveSund
Posts: 450
Joined: 11/8/2005
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: SteveSund
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Her arguments are based on her experiences that she applies to all children... They do not represent the norm so it's not valid to apply them to everyone...
John
Over half (55%) of American households choose not to own one gun. So really her views are just as "normal" as you wanting to own one. If we want to be "technical" they are 5% more normal!
Where are you getting this from? Most of this data has a history of being seriously flawed because the BATF does not keep records of household gun ownership. There have been some surveys, but they are problematic because a significant number of gun owners will not disclose if they own guns to a stranger.
There has been some good discussion on this topic, but there also has been some ridiculous strawman arguments. Equating a parent's decision to let a child operate a gun with babies being allowed to own guns is just plain silly. Where has anyone on this forum suggested a gun being given to a baby?
As it has been pointed out numerous times, there is no way that it is legally possible to transfer possession of a gun to a minor, but people are assuming that is what would be happening in this case. Possession would go to a parent who would then be in a position to determine how much access would be allowed.
<i>I agree with Lights. I don't believe that children, as a group, are mature enough to handle guns, and am astounded by the number of people here who think otherwise, but I guess we're all different and come from different backgrounds and upbringings.</i>
Children are individuals and should be treated accordingly. People have already mentioned that stats in regards to accidents, so I am astounded that people still ignore facts and logic and assume they know what is best for all children under all circumstances.
Here's the link where I got that number.
Found another one more statistically done with stated methodology in this Harris Poll. Although the data is 7 years old, it shows less people choosing to have a gun in their home since 1973. It now makes it 11% "more normal" NOT to own a gun.
So can we concede that "normal" is a vague and relative term and has really no bearing on a person owning or not owning a gun?
I would certainly not make a claim on what makes a person normal.
That being said, most of those studies are estimates and depending on which one you read, they can range up to around 50%. 39% is the lower than any other estimate I have seen, so I have some doubts as to the validity.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/17/2008 5:09:02 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2537
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SteveSund
I would certainly not make a claim on what makes a person normal.
That being said, most of those studies are estimates and depending on which one you read, they can range up to around 50%. 39% is the lower than any other estimate I have seen, so I have some doubts as to the validity.
Neither would I. I was taking issue with the way John implied the "normality" of this situation when it is as simple as a difference of opinion.
The numbers will probably be in dispute until there is a nationwide registration of all guns. Then we will know how many legal firearms are out there.
I still am of the opinion that a shooting competition at a summer camp sponsored by a church is inappropriate. But that can be a matter of opinion as well.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/17/2008 7:00:17 PM
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lightshineon
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I live in Oklahoma, in a town much smaller than oklahoma City. In oklahoma City their is much gang violence, nearly everyday you here of an innocent two year old shot, by a gang-banger. I do not see too many adults being gang memembers, and if they are they did not come into it as adults. I am not against guns, as I said, my husband is military owns many guns. I am not for children owning guns, Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, the word says., and unfortuently many adults. the brain is not mature and fully developed until age twenty-one. They cannot woork with dangerous machines in factories and so on. You do not in my opinion put a leathel weapon in a childs hands, and by the church at that. I am of very conservative views on things, as many know, so this may be shocking I am taking this stance, but, it sems ridiculious to give a child, who you do not know Jack about a weapon. In Oklahoma btw we have really no large game in this area. It is mostly deer hunting, and squirrel hunting.
quote:
ORIGINAL: michlang
I can't help but wonder if this issue simply comes down to regional differences. While I am sure it is viewed as purely natural and appropriate to own multiple guns as a child in more rural parts of our country, the same cannot be said of all places. When a person lives in a large city (and by that I mean a large city surrounded by other large cities where people have 10 cell phones instead of 10 guns) the idea of a church giving a gun away isn't wrong but just seems bizarre (or different). I understand the multiple perspectives given in this thread, and don't really see any of them as wrong, just as different responses (again, perhaps due to our regional varieties).
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/17/2008 7:14:41 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: SteveSund
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Her arguments are based on her experiences that she applies to all children... They do not represent the norm so it's not valid to apply them to everyone...
John
Over half (55%) of American households choose not to own one gun. So really her views are just as "normal" as you wanting to own one. If we want to be "technical" they are 5% more normal!
Where are you getting this from? Most of this data has a history of being seriously flawed because the BATF does not keep records of household gun ownership. There have been some surveys, but they are problematic because a significant number of gun owners will not disclose if they own guns to a stranger.
There has been some good discussion on this topic, but there also has been some ridiculous strawman arguments. Equating a parent's decision to let a child operate a gun with babies being allowed to own guns is just plain silly. Where has anyone on this forum suggested a gun being given to a baby?
As it has been pointed out numerous times, there is no way that it is legally possible to transfer possession of a gun to a minor, but people are assuming that is what would be happening in this case. Possession would go to a parent who would then be in a position to determine how much access would be allowed.
<i>I agree with Lights. I don't believe that children, as a group, are mature enough to handle guns, and am astounded by the number of people here who think otherwise, but I guess we're all different and come from different backgrounds and upbringings.</i>
Children are individuals and should be treated accordingly. People have already mentioned that stats in regards to accidents, so I am astounded that people still ignore facts and logic and assume they know what is best for all children under all circumstances.
Here's the link where I got that number.
Found another one more statistically done with stated methodology in this Harris Poll. Although the data is 7 years old, it shows less people choosing to have a gun in their home since 1973. It now makes it 11% "more normal" NOT to own a gun.
So can we concede that "normal" is a vague and relative term and has really no bearing on a person owning or not owning a gun?
First we have to concede that what isn't normal are the stories being told...
John
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