Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (Full Version)

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notmycity -> Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (7/8/2008 4:37:22 PM)

Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan:

http://www.rbc.org/bible-study/been-thinking-about/2008/08/01/column.aspx

And to think we used to give to RBC for years.

Come quickly Lord Jesus....



JimboFletch -> RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (7/8/2008 4:40:15 PM)

Oh wise one, please tell us where Mart has gone astray, instead of simply reviling him.
[8|]



earthless -> RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (7/8/2008 4:42:39 PM)

I have only heard of RBC, but have not had any time to do an in-depth study of their organization/teachings. notmycity - can you please outline what they teach that is heretical?

Thank you.



JimboFletch -> RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (7/8/2008 4:47:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

I have only heard of RBC, but have not had any time to do an in-depth study of their organization/teachings. notmycity - can you please outline what they teach that is heretical?

Thank you.

You'd probably like RBC for the same reasons NMC doesn't. Read the "heretical" article, it's not too long - but contains non-biblical terms and phrases...



VJDTropical -> RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (7/8/2008 4:54:30 PM)

Hello earthless I am not notmycity and not very good at this but I'll try to help

First

" How can we get home safely? For these reasons and more, I have a hard time understanding those who—for either salvation or spiritual growth—seem so focused on obeying the commandments of Moses, Jesus, or Paul. It seems to me that the people who are really honoring the spirit of the law are those who have been overwhelmed by God’s grace, forgiveness, and patience despite our unwillingness and inability to faithfully and fully obey Him (Luke 18:10-13). "

Disregards God's judgement and law ... only grace and love ... it's somewhat like if God loves us then we can do whatever we want to ( or sort of ) or that love is the ony thing that leads us to the Cross or repentance ... too much love and we will get an emergent church type of gospel and too much law then we get wesboro baptist church ... we need both

Second

" So what then is our part in the mission? It’s important to understand the spirit behind the commandments of the Bible. When the Old and New Testaments urge us to “obey” God, the first meaning of the original Hebrew and Greek words is often “to listen” or “to give attention to.” For instance, the Hebrew word that frequently shows up as “obey” in English Bibles is translated “hear” in the famous, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!” (Deuteronomy 6:4).

In the New Testament, the Greek word translated “obey” means to be persuaded. According to Vine’s Dictionary, the emphasis is not on submission to authority, but on action resulting from being convinced by reason and truth. Letting ourselves be persuaded by the truth is the idea the author of Hebrews is communicating when he says, “Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls” (Hebrews 13:17). "

Twisting of scripture and translation ... the first part of the quote is quite true and biblical whereas the second part says that obey means to be " persuaded " ... " According to Vine’s Dictionary, the emphasis is not on submission to authority, but on action resulting from being convinced by reason and truth " ... I believe that it means both submission and convincing

Third

Again I have to say to read the first post of the first part ... there is simply too much on one side ... extremes ... there needs to be a balance ... I can't really explain much but it is simply not biblical ... one can sense it



VJDTropical -> RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (7/8/2008 4:56:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

I have only heard of RBC, but have not had any time to do an in-depth study of their organization/teachings. notmycity - can you please outline what they teach that is heretical?

Thank you.

You'd probably like RBC for the same reasons NMC doesn't. Read the "heretical" article, it's not too long - but contains non-biblical terms and phrases...


JimboFletch is right ... it contains a lot of un or non biblical terms and phrases



VJDTropical -> RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (7/8/2008 4:59:25 PM)

This website is a tad forceful but it's somewhat okay and may highlight you on something ... also the links on the right ( to other websites ) many also help

http://www.alittleleaven.com/



notmycity -> RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (7/8/2008 4:59:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

Oh wise one, please tell us where Mart has gone astray, instead of simply reviling him.
[8|]



Actually, I’m just one of the “foolish [and weak] things of the world to confound the wise” (1 Cor 1:27) by God’s grace, so maybe you have me confused with someone else?

A sample quote for now:
“How could the shift from authority-based thinking affect our response to God? Would it make a difference if, instead of saying, ““Obey Me,”” Jesus said, ““Listen to Me. For your sake, I want your attention. I don’’t just want your dutiful compliance. I want you to love Me because I love you.””

Maybe the disciples weren’t glad for the “dutiful compliance” of the wind and the sea when He stilled them?

Luke 8:22-25
22 Now it came to pass on a certain day, that he went into a ship with his disciples: and he said unto them, Let us go over unto the other side of the lake. And they launched forth.
23 But as they sailed he fell asleep: and there came down a storm of wind on the lake; and they were filled with water, and were in jeopardy.
24 And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm.
25 And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they
OBEY him.

Same word for obey here in the Greek occurs many places in the NT, including here:

Heb 5:9
9 And being made perfect, he became THE AUTHOR OF ETERNAL SALVATION UNTO ALL THEM THAT OBEY HIM...



JimboFletch -> RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (7/8/2008 5:08:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: notmycity
...things of the world...

I've thought that for a while now, glad to see you 'fess up.



JimboFletch -> RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (7/8/2008 5:20:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: notmycity
A sample quote for now:
“How could the shift from authority-based thinking affect our response to God? Would it make a difference if, instead of saying, ““Obey Me,”” Jesus said, ““Listen to Me. For your sake, I want your attention. I don’’t just want your dutiful compliance. I want you to love Me because I love you.””

Maybe the disciples weren’t glad for the “dutiful compliance” of the wind and the sea when He stilled them?

So what do you have to say to Christ when He said the following?:

"Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you."

Did He really mean that He no longer calls us servants (slaves) but friends or was He kidding?



tony.nz -> RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (7/8/2008 11:11:13 PM)

I know nothonig about this Hank guy, but I can see nothing heretical in the linked article. Heresy is a word we throw around far too easy, to describe opinions we disagree with.

And in fact, I did not disagree with his opinion, either. Theere are heaps of religions which major on submission/obedience. However, obedience which comes from fear of the consequences of breaking the rules is one thing, obedience which comes from love and trust in the one giving the instructions, is on another level. If we live on fear of the consequences of breaking the rules, we are living by John 3:7the law, and we are judged by the law. Which, is not a good thing. Because, as Hank has said, we are left in a mess.

However, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Why? Because we keep all the rules and are better than the rest? No. Because the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death. For if we are free from sin and death through obedience to rules, then we have something to boast apart from Christ.

Now, I did not read anywhere where Hank said that because we live by grace, then we can do anything we like. Apparently, the Apostles also had this problem, of people reading into their words, that which they did not say. So, Hank is in good company, here.

John 3:7, For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? 8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.



Gloryandgrace -> RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (7/9/2008 12:31:21 AM)

There is no heresy in this teaching. De Haan is simply teaching to obey from the spirit and not from a slavish legalistic stance. His whole teaching was on obedience without 'issuing a command'. His analogy of the husband and wife summed up the point he was making. God or a husband has every right to 'command' but when the wife and husband are walking in love with one another, their relationship superceeds mere commands and position or authority, it takes on a life of giving and sharing, opening up and offering oneself as a willing sacrifice, enjoying the duty,enjoying the will of the other.

We have a spirit that cries out ABBA father, not only "Lord and King". A father that loves and reveals that love in many ways. What pleases God more? Obedience because of duty to law or obedience because of heartfelt enjoyment of God? This is all that De Haan was saying.

This is the whole of what the new testament is teaching.

Instead of being called heresy it should be called......."good news"

John



MrFribbles -> RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (7/9/2008 12:45:29 AM)

Hee hee. Man, if that's heresy, I'd hate to see what word you'd use for, say, Fred Phelps.



Ezra -> RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (7/9/2008 3:11:50 AM)

Mart de Haan (whoever he is) seems to be thoroughly confused about many issues, and this article is simply sowing confusion, and certainly false doctrine.

Let's take some specific examples instead of dealing in generalities
quote:

Is heaven our Houston? The Apollo astronauts’ words come to mind while thinking about this question: What if we see heaven as the mission control whose instructions will get us safely home if we follow directions?


This is simply false doctrine. It is not "heaven's instructions" that bring a soul to Heaven but the fact that a sinner is saved by God's grace through faith, washed in the blood of Christ, clothed with His righteousness, receives remission of sins, receives the gift of the Holy Ghost, and experiences the new birth. Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God. These are not "instructions" but a supernatural work of the living God based upon the perfect finished redemptive work of Christ.

quote:

Here’s my reaction: If getting “home” safely depends on our ability to do what we are told to do, then “Houston, we really do have a problem.”


Where did he get this idea about "our ability to do what we are told to do"? Certainly not from Scripture.

quote:

I can’t think of one law of Moses, Christ, or Paul that I have not, in principle, broken or left undone. There’s no way I can respond, “Patience? Done. Don’t worry? Done. Love enemy? Done.” If the checklist is important, mine is a mess.


Here's some more false doctrine. Moses and Paul have been placed on the same level as Christ, and given the ability and authority to issue laws. This is utter nonsense. The laws of God are the laws of Christ, and Moses and Paul were mere intermediaries -- messengers.

Indeed, Moses was barred from entering the Promised Land because of one sin, and Paul was forbidden to utter the things he had heard in the third Heaven. Anyone who puts Moses and Paul on the same level as Christ has no clue about what Scripture really teaches.

quote:

How can we get home safely? For these reasons and more, I have a hard time understanding those who—for either salvation or spiritual growth—seem so focused on obeying the commandments of Moses, Jesus, or Paul.


Here's additional false doctrine. Salvation is not obtained by obeying the commandments perfectly (which is impossible for sinful men), and sanctification is obedience to Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, and not in our own strength. So what is this man talking about? He has his own agenda, but he continues to sow the seeds of confusion.

quote:

It seems to me that the people who are really honoring the spirit of the law are those who have been overwhelmed by God’s grace, forgiveness, and patience despite our unwillingness and inability to faithfully and fully obey Him (Luke 18:10-13).


Once again, more false doctrine and more seeds of confusion. Is this man talking about the saved or the lost? Is he talking about those filled with the Spirit or those devoid of the Spirit? Does he even know the difference? A child of God is neither unwilling nor unable to faithfully obey God, since God gives him/her a new heart and a new spirit, and God also gives that saint the gift of the Holy Spirit, who enables the saint to be obedient.

Certainly, the child of God will be overwhelmed by God's grace, patience, and forgiveness, but this talk about "our unwillingness and inability" applies to sinners devoid of the Holy Spirit, not saints within whom Christ dwells.

quote:

So what then is our part in the mission? It’s important to understand the spirit behind the commandments of the Bible. When the Old and New Testaments urge us to “obey” God, the first meaning of the original Hebrew and Greek words is often “to listen” or “to give attention to.” For instance, the Hebrew word that frequently shows up as “obey” in English Bibles is translated “hear” in the famous, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!” (Deuteronomy 6:4).


More nonsense and more misleading teaching. "Hear , O Israel" is literally "Hear, O Israel", and what Israel must hear is a proclamation about the unity within the triune Godhead, and then obey the greatest commandment. But to dismiss obedience as simply "listening" is to totally misrepresent God's truths. Scripture says "But be ye DOERS of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves" (Jas. 1:22). It appears that de Haan is not only self-deceived, but deceiving others.

quote:

How could the shift from authority-based thinking affect our response to God? Would it make a difference if, instead of saying, “Obey Me,” Jesus said, “Listen to Me. For your sake, I want your attention. I don’t just want your dutiful compliance. I want you to love Me because I love you.”


Here at last is this man's agenda. He does not like "authority-based thinking" even though Scripture is authority-based from cover to cover. Our primary responsibility is to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind. But this is a commandment. We dare not think of God -- our loving Heavenly Father -- without, at the same time, remembering that He is the Lord God Almighty, that "Lord" means supreme Authority over our lives, and "God" means Sovereign Creator who is also our Savior. To divest God or His Word from authority is indeed heretical.

quote:

Even God Himself doesn’t tell us exactly how to show our patience, self-control, and love for Him in the specific moments of our lives. He shows us how much He loves us, gives us general principles, and then asks us to respond to His heart from our own.


Anyone who is familiar with Scripture will see that this is utter nonsense. The Bible is not merely "general principles" but those principles are illustrated in the lives of those of whom we read (particularly Christ and His apostles), and in the parables of Christ. Yes, God does ask us to respond to His heart from our own, but not at the expense of divesting Him of authority, or forgetting that He has given us His Holy Spirit to enable us to do what is pleasing to Him. "For it is God which worketh in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13). And that commandments are meant to be obeyed, not given a polite hearing.

quote:

This kind of following is so different from proud or self-righteous rule keeping. When I listen carefully to His voice in Scripture, I don’t hear someone consumed by authority and control.


Who is this man speaking about, and what does it have to do with obeying Christ's commandments? It is evident that he has a problem with authority, but that does not give him a right to divest Christ of His authority. God and Christ can never be "consumed by authority and control", so to make such a pointless statement does not help anyone to understand the character of God.

quote:

Even though Jesus has every right to demand our immediate and unqualified obedience, He approaches us gently, appealing not only to our will but to our minds and hearts.


There are times when Christ demands immediate and unqualified obedience. There are also times when He approaches us gently. The problem with this writer is that he is trying to fashion a Christ after himself, rather than as who He really is. And in the process he has succeeded in presenting numerous false teaching and misleading notions.

I am somewhat surprised that Christians reading de Haan's nonsense have stated in this thread that they find nothing wrong with this article. Since de Haan has made some serious theological blunders, how is it that they were not detected? Where is the spirit of discernment?



tony.nz -> RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (7/9/2008 6:38:21 AM)

Ezra,

I think you are spending too much time picking every last bit of meat off the bones. My dictionary defines blasphemy as 'Talk impiously, utter profanity about, revile". Again, people throw charges of blasphemy around when all they are talking about is a difference of opinion.

Now, I know nothing of this Hank, and perhaps he is a false teacher, but there is nothing I have a major theological problem with here.

quote:


quote:

Is heaven our Houston? The Apollo astronauts’ words come to mind while thinking about this question: What if we see heaven as the mission control whose instructions will get us safely home if we follow directions?

This is simply false doctrine. It is not "heaven's instructions" that bring a soul to Heaven but the fact that a sinner is saved by God's grace through faith, washed in the blood of Christ, clothed with His righteousness, receives remission of sins, receives the gift of the Holy Ghost, and experiences the new birth. Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God. These are not "instructions" but a supernatural work of the living God based upon the perfect finished redemptive work of Christ.

quote:

Here’s my reaction: If getting “home” safely depends on our ability to do what we are told to do, then “Houston, we really do have a problem.”

Where did he get this idea about "our ability to do what we are told to do"? Certainly not from Scripture.


I will deal with these together. I think if you read the article carefully, you will see that he is making the exact same point that you are. That is, we should not see our salvation as being dependant on following "heavens instructions" , that is, "our ability to do as we are told", to get us "home safely". Unfortunately, some have that legalistic attitude.




quote:

quote:

I can’t think of one law of Moses, Christ, or Paul that I have not, in principle, broken or left undone. There’s no way I can respond, “Patience? Done. Don’t worry? Done. Love enemy? Done.” If the checklist is important, mine is a mess.

Here's some more false doctrine. Moses and Paul have been placed on the same level as Christ, and given the ability and authority to issue laws. This is utter nonsense. The laws of God are the laws of Christ, and Moses and Paul were mere intermediaries -- messengers.

Indeed, Moses was barred from entering the Promised Land because of one sin, and Paul was forbidden to utter the things he had heard in the third Heaven. Anyone who puts Moses and Paul on the same level as Christ has no clue about what Scripture really teaches.


I hardly thought that by adding the names of Moses and Paul (who are authors who received the inspiration of scripture), with Christ, that he was putting them on the same level. You are choking on a gnat.


quote:

quote:

It seems to me that the people who are really honoring the spirit of the law are those who have been overwhelmed by God’s grace, forgiveness, and patience despite our unwillingness and inability to faithfully and fully obey Him (Luke 18:10-13).



Once again, more false doctrine and more seeds of confusion. Is this man talking about the saved or the lost? Is he talking about those filled with the Spirit or those devoid of the Spirit? Does he even know the difference? A child of God is neither unwilling nor unable to faithfully obey God, since God gives him/her a new heart and a new spirit, and God also gives that saint the gift of the Holy Spirit, who enables the saint to be obedient.

Certainly, the child of God will be overwhelmed by God's grace, patience, and forgiveness, but this talk about "our unwillingness and inability" applies to sinners devoid of the Holy Spirit, not saints within whom Christ dwells.


More gnats and more coughing fits. You know perfectly well that we struggle daily to subdue the flesh. We are saints only because we have been sanctified by the blood of Christ, and neither can we say that we are always without sin in the flesh. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin, and He is holy and just to forgive us our sins, when we confess them as a result. If being filled with the Spirit magically empowers a person to be above sin, I have never met a spirit-filled Christian.


quote:


quote:

So what then is our part in the mission? It’s important to understand the spirit behind the commandments of the Bible. When the Old and New Testaments urge us to “obey” God, the first meaning of the original Hebrew and Greek words is often “to listen” or “to give attention to.” For instance, the Hebrew word that frequently shows up as “obey” in English Bibles is translated “hear” in the famous, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!” (Deuteronomy 6:4).

More nonsense and more misleading teaching. "Hear , O Israel" is literally "Hear, O Israel", and what Israel must hear is a proclamation about the unity within the triune Godhead, and then obey the greatest commandment. But to dismiss obedience as simply "listening" is to totally misrepresent God's truths. Scripture says "But be ye DOERS of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves" (Jas. 1:22). It appears that de Haan is not only self-deceived, but deceiving others.


Well, I have looked it up, and he is right about the words. Deut 6:4, the Hebrew word "sama" is translated as "hear", the same word is translated as "obey', in for example Deut 11:27. I do not think he was dismissing obedience as simply listening. Clearly, there is an imperitive in Deut 6:4, as there is in other cases where the word is translated "obey". Rather he was making the claim that the reason we should obey comes from confidence that God knows what is best for us, and the Spirit often leads with gentle persuasion.
I certainly did not see any doctrine that said we should give God a hearing, and then just go and do whatever we want.

I am not going to respond to the rest of what you have said, because they are just more examples of you choking over gnats. You are fashioning "serious doctrinal errors" and "heresies" by choosing to read meanings into the text, that the writer did not intend, in my opinion. The article dealt with motivation for obedience, not the issue of the authority of the Word of God.

Now, if I say that God has given us the choice to obey Him, or not, will you read too much into that? The fact is, we are spiritual beings created in the image of God. We hear God by His Spirit or by the Word, and we choose to obey, or not. Did Christ not say "ye are gods"? To obey the gospel, is to believe the Word of God in regard to the person of Jesus Christ. Now, to obey this gospel, I first needed to hear it, and then I needed some persuading. At first, I did not obey. But God was persistent. We are commanded to abstain from sin, sometimes our obedience is delayed. That does not strip the Word of it's authority, or us of our salvation. Yet, by the grace of God, He is persistent still. And we are doers of the Word in this way, that we are transformed as we are persuaded by the Word and the Spirit. Those who are hearers only, they will never change. The reason is this. They look into the mirror of Gods word, and forget what manner of person they are, being perfectly content with the righteousness they see reflected in the image they see.



notmycity -> RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (7/9/2008 10:33:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

Mart de Haan (whoever he is) seems to be thoroughly confused about many issues, and this article is simply sowing confusion, and certainly false doctrine.

Let's take some specific examples instead of dealing in generalities
quote:

Is heaven our Houston? The Apollo astronauts’ words come to mind while thinking about this question: What if we see heaven as the mission control whose instructions will get us safely home if we follow directions?


This is simply false doctrine. It is not "heaven's instructions" that bring a soul to Heaven but the fact that a sinner is saved by God's grace through faith, washed in the blood of Christ, clothed with His righteousness, receives remission of sins, receives the gift of the Holy Ghost, and experiences the new birth. Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God. These are not "instructions" but a supernatural work of the living God based upon the perfect finished redemptive work of Christ.

quote:

Here’s my reaction: If getting “home” safely depends on our ability to do what we are told to do, then “Houston, we really do have a problem.”


Where did he get this idea about "our ability to do what we are told to do"? Certainly not from Scripture.

quote:

I can’t think of one law of Moses, Christ, or Paul that I have not, in principle, broken or left undone. There’s no way I can respond, “Patience? Done. Don’t worry? Done. Love enemy? Done.” If the checklist is important, mine is a mess.


Here's some more false doctrine. Moses and Paul have been placed on the same level as Christ, and given the ability and authority to issue laws. This is utter nonsense. The laws of God are the laws of Christ, and Moses and Paul were mere intermediaries -- messengers.

Indeed, Moses was barred from entering the Promised Land because of one sin, and Paul was forbidden to utter the things he had heard in the third Heaven. Anyone who puts Moses and Paul on the same level as Christ has no clue about what Scripture really teaches.

quote:

How can we get home safely? For these reasons and more, I have a hard time understanding those who—for either salvation or spiritual growth—seem so focused on obeying the commandments of Moses, Jesus, or Paul.


Here's additional false doctrine. Salvation is not obtained by obeying the commandments perfectly (which is impossible for sinful men), and sanctification is obedience to Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, and not in our own strength. So what is this man talking about? He has his own agenda, but he continues to sow the seeds of confusion.

quote:

It seems to me that the people who are really honoring the spirit of the law are those who have been overwhelmed by God’s grace, forgiveness, and patience despite our unwillingness and inability to faithfully and fully obey Him (Luke 18:10-13).


Once again, more false doctrine and more seeds of confusion. Is this man talking about the saved or the lost? Is he talking about those filled with the Spirit or those devoid of the Spirit? Does he even know the difference? A child of God is neither unwilling nor unable to faithfully obey God, since God gives him/her a new heart and a new spirit, and God also gives that saint the gift of the Holy Spirit, who enables the saint to be obedient.

Certainly, the child of God will be overwhelmed by God's grace, patience, and forgiveness, but this talk about "our unwillingness and inability" applies to sinners devoid of the Holy Spirit, not saints within whom Christ dwells.

quote:

So what then is our part in the mission? It’s important to understand the spirit behind the commandments of the Bible. When the Old and New Testaments urge us to “obey” God, the first meaning of the original Hebrew and Greek words is often “to listen” or “to give attention to.” For instance, the Hebrew word that frequently shows up as “obey” in English Bibles is translated “hear” in the famous, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!” (Deuteronomy 6:4).


More nonsense and more misleading teaching. "Hear , O Israel" is literally "Hear, O Israel", and what Israel must hear is a proclamation about the unity within the triune Godhead, and then obey the greatest commandment. But to dismiss obedience as simply "listening" is to totally misrepresent God's truths. Scripture says "But be ye DOERS of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves" (Jas. 1:22). It appears that de Haan is not only self-deceived, but deceiving others.

quote:

How could the shift from authority-based thinking affect our response to God? Would it make a difference if, instead of saying, “Obey Me,” Jesus said, “Listen to Me. For your sake, I want your attention. I don’t just want your dutiful compliance. I want you to love Me because I love you.”


Here at last is this man's agenda. He does not like "authority-based thinking" even though Scripture is authority-based from cover to cover. Our primary responsibility is to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind. But this is a commandment. We dare not think of God -- our loving Heavenly Father -- without, at the same time, remembering that He is the Lord God Almighty, that "Lord" means supreme Authority over our lives, and "God" means Sovereign Creator who is also our Savior. To divest God or His Word from authority is indeed heretical.

quote:

Even God Himself doesn’t tell us exactly how to show our patience, self-control, and love for Him in the specific moments of our lives. He shows us how much He loves us, gives us general principles, and then asks us to respond to His heart from our own.


Anyone who is familiar with Scripture will see that this is utter nonsense. The Bible is not merely "general principles" but those principles are illustrated in the lives of those of whom we read (particularly Christ and His apostles), and in the parables of Christ. Yes, God does ask us to respond to His heart from our own, but not at the expense of divesting Him of authority, or forgetting that He has given us His Holy Spirit to enable us to do what is pleasing to Him. "For it is God which worketh in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13). And that commandments are meant to be obeyed, not given a polite hearing.

quote:

This kind of following is so different from proud or self-righteous rule keeping. When I listen carefully to His voice in Scripture, I don’t hear someone consumed by authority and control.


Who is this man speaking about, and what does it have to do with obeying Christ's commandments? It is evident that he has a problem with authority, but that does not give him a right to divest Christ of His authority. God and Christ can never be "consumed by authority and control", so to make such a pointless statement does not help anyone to understand the character of God.

quote:

Even though Jesus has every right to demand our immediate and unqualified obedience, He approaches us gently, appealing not only to our will but to our minds and hearts.


There are times when Christ demands immediate and unqualified obedience. There are also times when He approaches us gently. The problem with this writer is that he is trying to fashion a Christ after himself, rather than as who He really is. And in the process he has succeeded in presenting numerous false teaching and misleading notions.

I am somewhat surprised that Christians reading de Haan's nonsense have stated in this thread that they find nothing wrong with this article. Since de Haan has made some serious theological blunders, how is it that they were not detected? Where is the spirit of discernment?


Amen on all counts about Ezra. We share your observations.

Thank you as always.



BerianAardvark -> RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (7/9/2008 10:53:57 AM)

quote:

: Ezra,


So what then is our part in the mission? It’s important to understand the spirit behind the commandments of the Bible. When the Old and New Testaments urge us to “obey” God, the first meaning of the original Hebrew and Greek words is often “to listen” or “to give attention to.” For instance, the Hebrew word that frequently shows up as “obey” in English Bibles is translated “hear” in the famous, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!” (Deuteronomy 6:4).

More nonsense and more misleading teaching. "Hear , O Israel" is literally "Hear, O Israel", and what Israel must hear is a proclamation about the unity within the triune Godhead, and then obey the greatest commandment. But to dismiss obedience as simply "listening" is to totally misrepresent God's truths. Scripture says "But be ye DOERS of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves" (Jas. 1:22). It appears that de Haan is not only self-deceived, but deceiving others.


Jesus disagrees with you on that point:
One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?" Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' "The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these." (Mark 12:28-31)

Notice there is nothing in there to say obey? That is because the Hebrew word translated (quite accurately) Hear carries with it the idea of also obeying, and even more so does the idea of Loving with all you heart mind and soul.

What we love that deeply we will follow. The whole of scripture points to our following God's commands because we love Him, not because we must. Our obedience is a reflection of our love for Him if it is to be meaningful.

De Haan doesn't deny that we must obey God's word, he does stress that the obedience must come as a result of our love for God rather than merely following a set of rules.

James would have had no problem with this concept, in fact he referred to it just one verse above the one you cited:

Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls. But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. (James 1:21-22)


What does "the word implanted" mean?

"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. (Jeremiah 31:33)


Our obedience must be from the heart...not a mere obedience to an external set of moral rules, THAT is what saves our souls.

Tim



notmycity -> RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (7/9/2008 4:24:38 PM)

I’m also reminded of the following Scripture that Mart would be well-advised to read and to heed:

Isa 30:8-10
8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:
9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits...

1 Pet 2:1-8
1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.



tony.nz -> RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (7/9/2008 5:28:30 PM)

This must be one of those "straw man" things. You put words in this guy's mouth which he did not say, and then you attack him for it. Exactly where did he advocate disobedience to God's Word?



notmycity -> RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (7/9/2008 5:31:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tony.nz

This must be one of those "straw man" things. You put words in this guy's mouth which he did not say, and then you attack him for it. Exactly where did he advocate disobedience to God's Word?


Ezra did a superb job of breaking it down for you.



tony.nz -> RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (7/9/2008 7:21:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: notmycity

quote:

ORIGINAL: tony.nz

This must be one of those "straw man" things. You put words in this guy's mouth which he did not say, and then you attack him for it. Exactly where did he advocate disobedience to God's Word?


Ezra did a superb job of breaking it down for you.


Ezra did a lot of coughing and spluttering over gnats, which I have already replied to. Now, I asked you a direct question. Where exactly did the article advocate disobedience to God's word? And, while I am at it, here is another. You previously accused him of false prophecying. What exactly did he prophecy? I did not quite catch any prophecies in that article.



ManimalX -> RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (7/9/2008 7:41:09 PM)

Wow... this is heretical? That is just a completely incorrect assessment.

Ezra: I have enjoyed many of your posts over the years and have joined my voice with yours in many threads, but I have to part ways with you on this one: you are just flatly wrong and I don't understand where you are coming from.

The point of this article is to illuminate the error of legalism and to exhort those Christians who think their salvation is earned by their adherence to a list of do's and do not's.

Accusing someone as false doctrine because they distinguished laws as coming through Paul and Moses and dared mention their names in the same sentence of Jesus? This is supremely petty and superbly short-sighted.

Maybe some people that have incorrectly reached this conclusion have some legalism issues to deal with themselves, I don't know. Tony is right about the gnats, because this is a wise article that makes an excellent point.



GroupW -> RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (7/9/2008 7:53:10 PM)

Ezra-
I gotta agree with Tony.nz here. I'm not seeing the heresy at all. What I do see is someone who doesn't speak in Evangelese. It would appear to me that he's just using plain English to describe orthodox thoughts in non-orthodox language. That makes many people uncomfortable.

As far as "following instructions"
If I read him correctly, he seems to be saying that merely following a list of do's is powerless to get us "home". That God wants our hearts not our blind obedience. Not that obedience isn't involved - it just flows out of our love for Him. Simple obedience is nothing but an ineffectual working for one's salvation. Loving God is different. I think the instructions he's talking about are the need for repentance and renewal.

Similar to the admonishment in Hosea 6:6 - For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

As far as "obedience" vs "hearing" and "authority"
His take on the original languages I believe is correct. "Obeying" in the original language is more than just an action - it is the right understanding of who God is and letting that impact our behavior. I can obey my dad, but if I do so out of an appreciation for who he is rather than a fear of what he can do, I think he is more pleased. We don't obey God because we are afraid of him, though the fear of God is good. We obey God because we love him. (See the prior reference to Hosea)

Besides, as a dutchman, I can personally vouch for him. Noone with a name like his could EVER be a heretic. ;)



Sonrise -> RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (7/9/2008 9:21:50 PM)

Maybe Ezra is a devout Washerite and was offended? One particular poster nearly had a breakdown in the PW thread and deleted all of her posts. People get very passionate and emotional when they feel that "their guy" or "their doctrine" is under attack. Just speculation on my part.



tony.nz -> RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... (7/9/2008 9:59:14 PM)

I think the biggest issue here is the view of heresy. I have previously given my dictionary definition of the word, and it is basically an attack, or impious words, in regard to the nature and character of God. It is certainly not a charge we should lay against anyone over a disagreement on doctrine. Even if we think they are totally wrong.



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