God has already fulfilled his covenant with the Jews

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loco79 -> God has already fulfilled his covenant with the Jews (7/8/2008 4:06:58 PM)
For example, regarding the land in question, God says through Joshua: “Thus the LORD gave to Israel all the land which he swore to give to their fathers; and having taken possession of it, they settled there” (Jos. 21:43). God also declares through Solomon that all his promises to Israel have been fulfilled: "Blessed be the LORD who has given rest to his people Israel, according to all that he promised; not one word has failed of all his good promise, which he uttered by Moses his servant” (1 Kings 8:56). God further says through the prophet Nehemiah that His promise to grant the land to Abraham’s descendants has been fulfilled: “Thou art the LORD, the God who didst choose Abram and bring him forth out of Ur of the Chalde'ans and give him the name Abraham; and thou didst find his heart faithful before thee, and didst make with him the covenant to give to his descendants the land of the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Amorite, the Per'izzite, the Jeb'usite, and the Gir'gashite; and thou hast fulfilled thy promise, for thou art righteous” (Neh. 9:7-8). Thus, those who believe that God still owes the Jews land and protection by divine decree deny the plain meaning of Scripture and make God a liar. This from part of an article from J Salza "Zionism" In fact, the loss of Israel’s ancient holdings is a sign of God’s divine judgment against the Jews for rejecting His Son, Jesus Christ, their Messiah. God warned Israel in the Old Testament Scriptures: “But if you turn aside from following me, you or your children, and do not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods and worship them, then I will cut off Israel from the land which I have given them; and the house which I have consecrated for my name I will cast out of my sight; and Israel will become a proverb and a byword among all peoples. And this house will become a heap of ruins; everyone passing by it will be astonished, and will hiss; and they will say, `Why has the LORD done thus to this land and to this house?' Then they will say, `Because they forsook the LORD their God who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshiped them and served them; therefore the LORD has brought all this evil upon them.’” (1 Kings 9:6-9). Scripture is clear that God owes the Jews nothing more, and suggests that the Jews are suffering the ramifications of rejecting Jesus Christ. They have been “broken off” of the root of Christ “because of their unbelief” (Rom. 11:19-20). However, Paul says that the Jews can be grafted in again, “if they do not persist in their unbelief,” for God has the power to do so (Rom. 11:23). We should also note that the Old Covenant that God entered into with the Jews has been superseded by the New Covenant of Christ (the Church calls this doctrine “supercessionism”). This happened the moment that God tore the curtain of the Jewish Temple in two (Matt. 27:51). When we speak of the “Old Covenant,” we are referring to the “Mosaic covenant,” that is, the law that God gave the Jews through Moses (see 2 Cor. 3:14). We are not referring to the Abrahamic covenant which, because it was based on grace through faith, was incorporated into the New Covenant of Christ. This is why Paul says that Abraham is the father of the children of the New Covenant (see Rom. 4:16; 9:7; Gal. 3:29; James 2:21; see also Gal. 3:9,14,16,18). The only place where the phrase “Old Covenant” is used in the New Testament is in Paul’s letter to the Corinthians, and Paul says that “through Christ it is taken away” (see 2 Cor. 3:14). Referring to the abrogation of the Old Covenant, Paul tells the Hebrews that “a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness” (Heb. 7:18). The phrase “set aside” (from the Greek aphetesis) means to annul. Again, referring to the Old Covenant, Paul says “He abolishes the first in order to establish the second” (Heb. 10:9). The word “abolish” (from the Greek anaireo) means to abrogate or destroy. Paul uses very specific language to teach that the Old Covenant has been rendered null and void by the New Covenant of Jesus Christ (see also Heb. 8:7). This means that the Jews are no longer in a saving covenant with God until they renounce Judaism and are baptized into Jesus Christ

loco79 -> RE: God has already fulfilled his covenant with the Jews (7/8/2008 4:08:09 PM)
This is taken from an article called "Zionism." I have the whole article but I am not sure who wrote. Got it from a friend

ta_mosquito -> RE: God has already fulfilled his covenant with the Jews (7/8/2008 4:17:06 PM)
Google is my friend: http://www.scripturecatholic.com/zionism.html

bob97 -> RE: God has already fulfilled his covenant with the Jews (7/9/2008 10:25:00 AM)
quote: This means that the Jews are no longer in a saving covenant with God until they renounce Judaism and are baptized into Jesus Christ The Jews were never in a saving covenant other than the new covenant. That covenant has been implemented but not completely fulfilled. All who have been saved since the beginning have been saved under the cover of the new covenant. Now show me evidence that the new covenant of Jeremiah 31 has been fulfilled. As well show me how the land covenant has been fulfilled. In fact there are several aspects of the Abrahamic Covenant yet unfulfilled. The important element of the Abrahamic Covenant demands a future fulfillment with Messiah’s kingdom rule: 1: Israel as a nation today does not possess the land promised. It will be theirs forevermore. Ezekiel envisions a future day when Israel is restored to the land (Ezekiel 20:33–37, 40–42; 36:1–37:28). 2: Israel as a nation will be converted, forgiven, and restored (Romans 11:25–27). 3: Israel will repent and receive the forgiveness of God in the future (Zechariah 12:10–14). The Abrahamic Covenant finds its ultimate fulfillment in connection with the return of Messiah to rescue and bless His people Israel. It is through the nation Israel that God promised in Genesis 12:1–3 to bless the nations of the world. That ultimate blessing will issue in the forgiveness of sins and Messiah’s glorious kingdom reign on earth. Why do people try to disinherit Israel from the promises of God? Bob

loco79 -> RE: God has already fulfilled his covenant with the Jews (7/9/2008 11:23:35 AM)
Bob97 I did give scriptural evidence for my beliefs, If you look at the top three verses I gave, it shows the answers to your questions. To your points 1: “Thou art the LORD, the God who didst choose Abram and bring him forth out of Ur of the Chalde'ans and give him the name Abraham; and thou didst find his heart faithful before thee, and didst make with him the covenant to give to his descendants the land of the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Amorite, the Per'izzite, the Jeb'usite, and the Gir'gashite; and thou hast fulfilled thy promise, for thou art righteous” (Neh. 9:7-8). "Blessed be the LORD who has given rest to his people Israel, according to all that he promised; not one word has failed of all his good promise, which he uttered by Moses his servant” (1 Kings 8:56). 2 Look at Mt 10:5-7 for the preaching of the people of Israel. This goes perfectly with your Romans verse 3 Also take a look at Lk 1:68-79 corresponds with Is 59:20-21, Hebrews 8:10-13 and 10:16-17 are amlost Identical to Jr 31:31-33 and also reference Is 59:20-21. If you look carefully you will begin to see these verses complete each other with regards to " putting the law in their minds and on their hearts"

loco79 -> RE: God has already fulfilled his covenant with the Jews (7/9/2008 11:30:45 AM)
Sorry for some reason the rest of my post didnt quite make it. In the whole picture of things Jesus came from Israel to deliver all of from evil. In his times he as apostles whose sole purpose was to preach to the Jews. I never said that Jews past and present cant be saved, they just have to be saved the same way everyone who believes in Jesus as the saviour must. And God will give them plenty of time to join us, just he has given all of us the opportunity. My main point of my original post is that the Jews will not become greater than the Christians, because all of those who accept Christ will be the same. In my opinion it is false to proclaim that all future events go through them. Jesus is one of them and fulfilled all of the old covenants. And he also created the new ones, and when he created the new ones he created a church and so forth. I believe in the conversion of all people and Jesus says he will reign again and his disciples will be their along with him. He doesnt christian or jew is greater, because in heaven we are all one people.

bob97 -> RE: God has already fulfilled his covenant with the Jews (7/9/2008 11:47:42 AM)
quote: I never said that Jews past and present cant be saved, they just have to be saved the same way everyone who believes in Jesus loco...there is no disputing that the only way to salvation is through Christ but just look at Israel today, do you think the new covenant has been fulfilled. The major part of Israel is still blinded. That is exactly what the new covenant accomplishes... to grant the Israelites faith, remove the veil of misunderstanding and bring them to Christ. This will not happen until the very end of the last week. Two-thirds of the people in the land will be cut off and die," says the LORD. "But one-third will be left in the land. I will bring that group through the fire and make them pure. I will refine them like silver and purify them like gold. They will call on My name, and I will answer them. I will say, 'These are My people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.'" (Zec 13:8-9) No my friend, the Abrahamic Covenant is yet to be completed. Bob

Retrobyter -> RE: God has already fulfilled his covenant with the Jews (7/10/2008 1:01:28 AM)
Shalom, loco79! In your post, quote: ORIGINAL: loco79 Bob97 I did give scriptural evidence for my beliefs, If you look at the top three verses I gave, it shows the answers to your questions. To your points 1: “Thou art the LORD, the God who didst choose Abram and bring him forth out of Ur of the Chalde'ans and give him the name Abraham; and thou didst find his heart faithful before thee, and didst make with him the covenant to give to his descendants the land of the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Amorite, the Per'izzite, the Jeb'usite, and the Gir'gashite; and thou hast fulfilled thy promise, for thou art righteous” (Neh. 9:7-8). "Blessed be the LORD who has given rest to his people Israel, according to all that he promised; not one word has failed of all his good promise, which he uttered by Moses his servant” (1 Kings 8:56). 2 Look at Mt 10:5-7 for the preaching of the people of Israel. This goes perfectly with your Romans verse 3 Also take a look at Lk 1:68-79 corresponds with Is 59:20-21, Hebrews 8:10-13 and 10:16-17 are amlost Identical to Jr 31:31-33 and also reference Is 59:20-21. If you look carefully you will begin to see these verses complete each other with regards to " putting the law in their minds and on their hearts" In the whole picture of things Jesus came from Israel to deliver all of from evil. In his times he as apostles whose sole purpose was to preach to the Jews. I never said that Jews past and present cant be saved, they just have to be saved the same way everyone who believes in Jesus as the saviour must. And God will give them plenty of time to join us, just he has given all of us the opportunity. My main point of my original post is that the Jews will not become greater than the Christians, because all of those who accept Christ will be the same. In my opinion it is false to proclaim that all future events go through them. Jesus is one of them and fulfilled all of the old covenants. And he also created the new ones, and when he created the new ones he created a church and so forth. I believe in the conversion of all people and Jesus says he will reign again and his disciples will be their along with him. He doesnt christian or jew is greater, because in heaven we are all one people. I feel I need to say the following: You can't just throw out the baby with the bathwater! While it is true that God DID give the Land (haEretz) to Isra'el once, He gave it to them IN PERPETUITY! You're right in that "God doesn't owe Isra'el anything anymore," but God WILL give them haEretz FOR HIS OWN NAME'S SAKE! Check this out: Ezek 36:17-28 17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman. 18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it: 19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them. 20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD (YHVH), and are gone forth out of his land. 21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. 22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD (YHVH); I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. 23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD (YHVH), saith the Lord GOD (YHVH), when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. KJV THAT says it all! Furthermore, Paul points out in Romans 11:26-32 that God will also keep His promises to the Jews for the FATHERS' SAKES! Rom 11:26-32 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. KJV Bob97 is right; the prophecies include the reign ON EARTH of the Mashiach (which is also transliterated as "Messiah" and is translated into Greek as "Christos" and from there transliterated into English as "Christ"). (Luke 1:30-33) Luke 1:30-33 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. KJV The "house of Ya`acov (Jacob)" IS Isra'el! Furthermore, He will be given the "throne of His father, Daviyd (David)!" That's King Daviyd of Isra'el! Do not think for a moment that the messenger Gavri'el said the wrong thing! Don't be taken in by "THE LIE!" In 2 Thess. 2:3-12, Paul points out that the "Man of Sin" (whom many call the "Antichrist") is an "anthroopos tees anomias," literally, a "man [of] the no-Torah." He is one (probably a Jew) who believes that we no longer must keep the Torah, the one Law of God delivered by the hands of Moshe (Moses)! HaSatan will give him powers to deceive others into believing the Lie. Finally, you said, "My main point of my original post is that the Jews will not become greater than the Christians, because all of those who accept Christ will be the same. In my opinion it is false to proclaim that all future events go through them." Well, you're right...to a point...and you are wrong, too. You're right that they have no better standing than we do in the Messiah; you're right that we are all "saved" the same. HOWEVER, the Jews who are "saved" are NOT absorbed into this thing called "the Church." Instead, it is WE GENTILES who believe that are absorbed into the COMMONWEALTH OF ISRA'EL! WE are grafted into the Olive Branch, which represents God's Kingdom on earth, which was once presided over by King Daviyd! Pay close attention to the wording in the following passages: Rom 11:11-29 11 I say then, Have they (the Jews) stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion (or Zion, the mountain in Jerusalem) the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (God doesn't CHANGE HIS MIND about His gifts or His calling! If He called the Jews "my people" before, He will do so again! We just have the good grace of God to be included in His "my people," too!) KJV Eph 2:11-22 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ (a Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus (Messiah Yeshua`) ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God (that's not "the Church" but is the aforementioned "commonwealth of Isra'el," for the "saints" are the "holy ones" of the OT Scriptures!); 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. KJV May the Master richly bless you in your study (because if you "bless Isra'el," you yourself, now a part of that Isra'el, will also be blessed)! It's a great irony! Retrobyter

loco79 -> RE: God has already fulfilled his covenant with the Jews (7/13/2008 8:52:10 PM)
Hebrews 7:18 There is indeed a setting aside of the former commandment, because of the weakness and unprofitableness thereof: Hebrews 10:9 Then said I: Behold, I come to do thy will, O God: He taketh away the first, that he may establish that which followeth. If i take the literal interpretation of these and the verses i provided earlier, as many say i should then it looks like God has fulfilled is promise, just like he has says Another reason I dont believe in this return glory of the Jews is because of Rom 4:10-13 How then was it reputed? When he was in circumcision or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the justice of the faith which he had, being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, being uncircumcised: that unto them also it may be reputed to justice: 12 And he might be the father of circumcision; not to them only that are of the circumcision, but to them also that follow the steps of the faith that is in the uncircumcision of our father Abraham. Abraham was righteous before he was circumsized, meaning he was a gentile before he was a Jew. That is why Luke refers to the "times of the Gentiles" Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. What does "shall be trodden down of the Gentiles mean?" I know what I believe it is, I was just wondering what your opinion is.

bob97 -> RE: God has already fulfilled his covenant with the Jews (7/13/2008 9:39:48 PM)
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins." [Romans 11:25-27] God set the Israelites aside to develop the Church and adopt the Gentiles into it. At such time as the last Gentile has been, God will once again turn His attention back to Israel. In effect the Spirit will no longer indwell the Gentile Nations and the Gentiles will almost universally hate God. If the full complement of Gentiles whom God intends to save has been reached, does that not imply that no more Gentiles will be saved? It is very likely that is what Paul is talking about in 1 Timothy 4:2-4…preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths. God will then turn His attention back to Israel and fulfill the covenants that He has made with them. Bob

Ntech -> RE: God has already fulfilled his covenant with the Jews (7/19/2008 9:27:15 PM)
I have been thinking about this subject for awhile and have a completely differently theory on whats happening here. The problem the Jews are having wasn't the fault of Jesus Christ. Rather the problem stems from John the Baptist. And the problem is found here in the book of Malachi. Malachi 4. 5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. The question is "Was John the Baptist Elijah the Prophet?" I would have to say yes. Even though he claimed otherwise. Mark 9. 12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought. 13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him. Jesus Christ claimed he had come. But the only other notable religious figure in the New Testament is John the Baptist. If Elijah had showed up as a different person wouldn't it have been recorded? And if he wasn't Elijah why were the Jews slapped with a 2000 year top level Leviticus 26 curse? Take a look at the evidence in the book of Hosea. First off though read through Leviticus 26 and read up on curses that can be dealed out under this agreement. Then look at Hosea 1 and read up on the day of Jezreel. Then look at Hosea 5 and note how through Hosea God himself was threatening to stalk the Israelites and the Jews like a lion. And then finally read Hosea 6 verses 1, 2, and 3 about the 3 days in light of 2nd Peter 3-8. And then it all becomes awfully clear. The Jews and Israelites were to face a 2000 year top level Leviticus 26 curse. Followed by a 1000 year day of Jezreel. And for the Catholic Church supposition that the church replaced the Jews is wrong. It isn't a replacment. It's a rescue mission. It's been sent to the world to give the Gentiles of the world a chance to be adopted into the chosen people. And rescue the lost Jews and Israelites that scattered to the world and live among the Gentiles today. And to fulfill the final promise of Leviticus 26. That all cursed under the old covenant will eventually be restored. According to the prophesies of Gensis 48 and 49 the offspring of Jacob/Israel are to be dozens of countries by the end times. It might not be physically possible to bring them all back a remnent will return however.

bob97 -> RE: God has already fulfilled his covenant with the Jews (7/19/2008 11:13:48 PM)
Ntech... You are maybe making it to complicated…Israel rejected Christ because they were blinded to Him and were instead intent upon the works of the law given by Moses. Paul tells us that this blindness exist even to this day whenever the Moses is read. Because the Torah still rules in Judaism, Israel is still for the most part blinded to Christ and only when Christ changes their hearts will the veil be removed. And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. (2Co 3:13-15) It would appear that you are correct, that Israel was blinded and dispersed in order that the Gentiles might be grafted into the vine and once the fullness of the Gentiles is complete God will deal with Israel once again. One would also have to think that the cruse of Leviticus has direct bearing. This is a difficult theme to understand but it does seem to be God’s plan. Bob

Ntech -> RE: God has already fulfilled his covenant with the Jews (7/20/2008 11:20:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bob97 Ntech... You are maybe making it to complicated…Israel rejected Christ because they were blinded to Him and were instead intent upon the works of the law given by Moses. Paul tells us that this blindness exist even to this day whenever the Moses is read. Because the Torah still rules in Judaism, Israel is still for the most part blinded to Christ and only when Christ changes their hearts will the veil be removed. And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. (2Co 3:13-15) It would appear that you are correct, that Israel was blinded and dispersed in order that the Gentiles might be grafted into the vine and once the fullness of the Gentiles is complete God will deal with Israel once again. One would also have to think that the cruse of Leviticus has direct bearing. This is a difficult theme to understand but it does seem to be God’s plan. Bob I merely figured out the mechanics of how they did it. That's all. It seems that "God" wasn't happy with the state of things when the time of the messiah came. It would seem that this curse of Malachi is what gave them another 2000 years to get it right. Luke 13 6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. 7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? 8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: 9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. Luke 21 29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. 31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Retrobyter -> RE: God has already fulfilled his covenant with the Jews (7/20/2008 6:33:16 PM)
Shalom, bob97! You said, quote: ORIGINAL: bob97 Ntech... You are maybe making it to complicated…Israel rejected Christ because they were blinded to Him and were instead intent upon the works of the law given by Moses. Paul tells us that this blindness exist even to this day whenever the Moses is read. Because the Torah still rules in Judaism, Israel is still for the most part blinded to Christ and only when Christ changes their hearts will the veil be removed. And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. (2Co 3:13-15) It would appear that you are correct, that Israel was blinded and dispersed in order that the Gentiles might be grafted into the vine and once the fullness of the Gentiles is complete God will deal with Israel once again. One would also have to think that the cruse of Leviticus has direct bearing. This is a difficult theme to understand but it does seem to be God’s plan. Bob I've got good news for you, Bob! The Jews ARE beginning to accept Yeshua` (Jesus) as their Messiah! Oh, and both Y'hudim (Jews) and Goyim (Gentiles) are grafted into the Olive Tree in the same way! Anyway, the veil IS being lifted for the Jews, one by one! Messianic Synagogues are popping up all over, even in the state of Isra'el, even in Yerushalayim (Jerusalem)! Take heart! With their acceptance comes "life from the dead!" (Rom. 11:15) Retrobyter

bob97 -> RE: God has already fulfilled his covenant with the Jews (7/20/2008 7:43:49 PM)
Amen Retrobyter... it seems the time approaches swiftly. Bob

Lapidoth -> RE: God has already fulfilled his covenant with the Jews (7/21/2008 3:47:43 PM)
quote: May the Master richly bless you in your study (because if you "bless Isra'el," you yourself, now a part of that Isra'el, will also be blessed)! It's a great irony! It is ironic if we think about it. I had never thought of it in those words, but that surely simplifies it. One of those V8 moments. LOL.

DaveW -> RE: God has already fulfilled his covenant with the Jews (8/5/2008 2:56:50 PM)
So much replacement theology junk. Did you read the boundaries of what God promised to Joshua? Can you realistically say that Israel ever even came close to possessing all that property? Hint: it covers much of current day Iraq.....

DaveW -> RE: God has already fulfilled his covenant with the Jews (8/5/2008 2:59:06 PM)
TO the OP: According to Romans 11, a major reason the New Covenant was extended to the Gentiles was to provoke the Jews to jealousy. Does your position do that?

verdigris -> RE: God has already fulfilled his covenant with the Jews (8/12/2008 9:14:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: loco79 For example, regarding the land in question, God says through Joshua: “Thus the LORD gave to Israel all the land which he swore to give to their fathers; and having taken possession of it, they settled there” (Jos. 21:43). God also declares through Solomon that all his promises to Israel have been fulfilled: "Blessed be the LORD who has given rest to his people Israel, according to all that he promised; not one word has failed of all his good promise, which he uttered by Moses his servant” (1 Kings 8:56). God further says through the prophet Nehemiah that His promise to grant the land to Abraham’s descendants has been fulfilled: “Thou art the LORD, the God who didst choose Abram and bring him forth out of Ur of the Chalde'ans and give him the name Abraham; and thou didst find his heart faithful before thee, and didst make with him the covenant to give to his descendants the land of the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Amorite, the Per'izzite, the Jeb'usite, and the Gir'gashite; and thou hast fulfilled thy promise, for thou art righteous” (Neh. 9:7-8). Thus, those who believe that God still owes the Jews land and protection by divine decree deny the plain meaning of Scripture and make God a liar. This from part of an article from J Salza "Zionism" In fact, the loss of Israel’s ancient holdings is a sign of God’s divine judgment against the Jews for rejecting His Son, Jesus Christ, their Messiah. God warned Israel in the Old Testament Scriptures: “But if you turn aside from following me, you or your children, and do not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods and worship them, then I will cut off Israel from the land which I have given them; and the house which I have consecrated for my name I will cast out of my sight; and Israel will become a proverb and a byword among all peoples. And this house will become a heap of ruins; everyone passing by it will be astonished, and will hiss; and they will say, `Why has the LORD done thus to this land and to this house?' Then they will say, `Because they forsook the LORD their God who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshiped them and served them; therefore the LORD has brought all this evil upon them.’” (1 Kings 9:6-9). Scripture is clear that God owes the Jews nothing more, and suggests that the Jews are suffering the ramifications of rejecting Jesus Christ. They have been “broken off” of the root of Christ “because of their unbelief” (Rom. 11:19-20). However, Paul says that the Jews can be grafted in again, “if they do not persist in their unbelief,” for God has the power to do so (Rom. 11:23). We should also note that the Old Covenant that God entered into with the Jews has been superseded by the New Covenant of Christ (the Church calls this doctrine “supercessionism”). This happened the moment that God tore the curtain of the Jewish Temple in two (Matt. 27:51). When we speak of the “Old Covenant,” we are referring to the “Mosaic covenant,” that is, the law that God gave the Jews through Moses (see 2 Cor. 3:14). We are not referring to the Abrahamic covenant which, because it was based on grace through faith, was incorporated into the New Covenant of Christ. This is why Paul says that Abraham is the father of the children of the New Covenant (see Rom. 4:16; 9:7; Gal. 3:29; James 2:21; see also Gal. 3:9,14,16,18). The only place where the phrase “Old Covenant” is used in the New Testament is in Paul’s letter to the Corinthians, and Paul says that “through Christ it is taken away” (see 2 Cor. 3:14). Referring to the abrogation of the Old Covenant, Paul tells the Hebrews that “a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness” (Heb. 7:18). The phrase “set aside” (from the Greek aphetesis) means to annul. Again, referring to the Old Covenant, Paul says “He abolishes the first in order to establish the second” (Heb. 10:9). The word “abolish” (from the Greek anaireo) means to abrogate or destroy. Paul uses very specific language to teach that the Old Covenant has been rendered null and void by the New Covenant of Jesus Christ (see also Heb. 8:7). This means that the Jews are no longer in a saving covenant with God until they renounce Judaism and are baptized into Jesus Christ While it is true that God has completed his work of salvation for the Jews through Jesus the Messiah, it is not true that God has abandoned the Jews as His Chosen People, as some assert. In fact, in Revelation we find that there will be a period during the 'Tribulation' when Jews living at that time will again have a massive chance for repentance during the time of the two witnesses.

loco79 -> RE: God has already fulfilled his covenant with the Jews (8/12/2008 1:04:14 PM)
Verdigris Jesus is the fulfillment of the Jews. The saviour of the world has come through them, and he also created his own church in to further testify his glory. Through Jesus, God's covenant with the Jews is complete. That is why Jesus is the New Covenant. Just because God fulfills a covenant, that doesnt mean there cant be new ones. Jesus is the new and final covenant with the people of God.

wreid77 -> RE: God has already fulfilled his covenant with the Jews (8/12/2008 2:25:06 PM)
Loco79, The only thing you seem to really be correct on is that all must come to GOD through Christ. There is no other way. As for the rest, GOD's timeline has, since Abraham, been displayed through HIS people. Jer. 30:22 "You will be my people and I will be your GOD" HE has not, EVER, abandoned HIS people. If HE had, what would be our hope. Bob thanks, that Romans 11 passage is exactly what I was thinking from the time I read the title of this thread. GOD hardened the hearts of HIS own people in order to allow time for us (gentiles) time to come to him and to tell all of the rest of the world about HIM and HIS Son Jesus who is the Christ. GOD's promises endure time and HE will return to HIS people when our time is done. By the way, I'm sure that at some point there has been another forum thread on this, but looking into the culture of the day, being adopted into a family is really something special. Did you know that a parent could legally disown there own flesh and blood, but an adopted child was family forever.

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