RE: The beast of Rev 17 (Full Version)

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rcjones -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/16/2008 10:04:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
KISS: Keep it simple.



Can you give me chapter and verse for that scripture?

God says you shouldn't be content with the simple.

Pr 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

I'll believe God.



Sinner-Saint -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/16/2008 10:17:45 PM)

No, rc; it's practical advice. You're making mountains out of molehills. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

"Know and understand..." We are to lean our minds as well as our hearts. But what you're teaching is not sound in this instance; you have gone too far.

Now you want to complain about TOS violations and you call me a simpleton, a scorner and a fool with Scripture?

Really now.

A fallacy in an argument is to make it about the individual.
I am criticizing your teaching.



rcjones -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/16/2008 11:31:23 PM)

You assert that KISS is the basis by which to judge a hermeneutic.

I challenged that assertion with scripture.



rcjones -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/16/2008 11:50:42 PM)

Concerning simple things and riddles:

1. I have given scripture that says God speaks in riddles.
2. I have given scriptures saying the Messiah will speak riddles in parables.
3. I have given scripture saying the wise seek to understand the riddles.
4. I have given scripture saying that fools seek to KISS.
5. I have given examples of the riddles in many Books of the Bible at the web site.

6. Further consider that the author of Hebrews began a teaching on Melchizadek, then he interrupts his teaching to talk about milk and meat, then continues his teaching of Melchizadek as a shadow of Christ.

It appears that he would say the shadows are the 'meat' of the gospel.

Please address what the Bible says about riddles rather than repeating your unfounded opinions. Thanks.



Sinner-Saint -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/17/2008 12:13:11 AM)

You're building a strawman argument: I did not say that riddles and shadows are not part of how God hides so we have to seek Him.

I am saying that your interpreation of Revelation 17 is outlandish and contradicted within the very chapter you attempt to interpret through your shadow methodology!

To take the language as you have and interject a lineage which really has nothing to do with anything so you can come up with Tubal-cain and then proceed to say the beast shadows Christ leading the sins of the Church is preposterous.

The whole concept here is a non-sequitur. You have joined facts together unnaturally.

Revelation reveals; it sheds light. It gives meaning to OT prophesies and puts various and sundry accounts into distinct orders through its parallel accounts of the end-times.

And the end-time is ALL about Jesus.
But the beast is NOT.

(and no, you don't debate on message boards very well...)



Sinner-Saint -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/17/2008 12:17:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjones
You assert that KISS is the basis by which to judge a hermeneutic.

No. I did not. I gave you practical advice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjones
I challenged that assertion with scripture.

So what?

I give you practical advice and you want only from Scripture?
How about accepting Salvation as a child?
Isn't that one of your criteria for your shadow doctrine?



Sinner-Saint -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/17/2008 12:28:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjones
It appears that he would say the shadows are the 'meat' of the gospel.


HEB 5:11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

HEB 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity ~

The beast is against the Lamb and does not foreshadow what already has been done!

Unfounded you say? What about this in Revelation?

REV 17:9 "This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. 11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

REV 17:12 "The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13 They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 They will make war against the Lamb...

They are not alike at all.

Your order using the lineage of Cain is what is unfounded, plucked right out of thin air.
However, you needed it so you could get to Tubal-cain.
From him, you were able to strain out an interpretation which makes the language scream.

This shadow is just darkness.
You are being overly complex when it is already complex.
You need to Keep It Simple and lower your wild exaggerations.



rcjones -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/17/2008 7:15:08 PM)

quote:

To take the language as you have and interject a lineage which really has nothing to do with anything so you can come up with Tubal-cain and then proceed to say the beast shadows Christ leading the sins of the Church is preposterous.


When you can explain Remez and Drash. then we will talk about it. Both of these Jewish interpretive practices permit the moving of context by the linking of single words. The linking I have done is not only with 'seven' and 'ten' but with the riddle itself containing the one who is and the one who is to come as well as the beast.. In fact, when I shared the methodology with my local rabbi, I was directed to Rashi and PaRDes to explain what I was doing. So although it is foreign to you. It is not to the rabbi.

In Jewish practice, quite a bit of invention is permitted, which is why much of the Midrash is suspect, but the rules posted earlier, derived from the New Testament do not permit invention at all. The seven and ten, etc. are undeniably there. You simply do not like the linking because the practice is foreign to you.

As you read Jewish guys like Rashi, I suggest you learn the methods without accepting their conclusions. The shadows are revealed by the light of Christ, and Jewish interpreters who refuse to see Christ never get them quite right. Those who were looking to interpret the prophecies literally missed him as the suffering servant.



Sinner-Saint -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/17/2008 11:35:50 PM)

You have permitted so much invention that your conclusion is at odds with the text.

You're so involved with what you're doing that I don't think you can really see what you've done.

I don't see anything left to talk about.



Dan1138 -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/19/2008 6:32:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjones

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan1138

My sincere apologies. I assume that you are not used to critical debate in your fellowship. Please feel free to re-read my previous posts as I think you will see that I was not at all hostile just discerning. I am not asking for your address just what your fellowship type is. I personally feel that the Beast of Rev 17 is a nation full of mystics, new agers, numerologists and other wizards. In fact the book of Revelations speaks of Balaamites and Nicolaitans just like these new agers. The saddest part is that many will call themselves Christ followers, I believe. They may even be shadow and acrostic correlaters. That is why I encourage everyone to read the Bible for themselves and beware of false teachers. It is always pride that gets into peoples way.


I would think that a proper way to discern doctrine is to evaluate doctrine rather than evaluate the name of a fellowship and make wild insinuations. But then idontknownuthin.com

The doctrine taught in the OP are these:

From Cain: Christ was the possessor of the sins of the church
From Enoch: Christ walked with God
From Irad: Christ was a Son-prophet
From Mehujael: Christ was Smitten by God
From Methusael: Christ was man and God
From Lamech: Christ is Powerful
From Jabal and Jubal: Christ is the Word of God in heaven and on earth

From the descendants of Cain and Seth: Christ dies so man may live.
From the riddle of the seven: Christ is, and comes in power
From the riddle of the beast: In fulfillment of prophecy, Christ takes away the sins of the church

Do you discern any hint of heretical doctrine?

Can you tell me what a "shadow correlator" is and point me to their sites? I have been unable to find others and have been actively looking for them.
If you cannot show me any, isn't your apology just another veiled insinuation that I am to be counted among wizards, New Agers, Balaamites, etc?

But then I am unaccustomed to critical debate...


I believe the beast to be a nation full of mystical adherents to numerology, new age, magic and over-spiritualized scripture interpretations.



PeterD -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/19/2008 10:00:18 PM)

Hello rcjones

Internet Book of Shadows

Do you use this as a resource in your reasoning?


Since this teaching is around, is Sophia of the beast?

because this writting says:

1107
Sophia gave birth to a male spirit, Christ, (who only much later
came to earth in human form) and a female spirit Achamoth (who later
came to earth as Mary Magdalene). These two gave birth to the elements
and the terrestrial world, then brought forth a new god named Jehovah,
Son of Darkness, along with five planetary spirits later regarded as
emanations of Jehovah: Iao, Sabaoth, Adonai, Eloi, annd Uraeus. These
spirits produced archangels, angels, and finally men and women.

Jehovah forbade men to eat the fruit of knowledge, but his mother
Achamoth sent her own spirit to earth in the form of the serpent Ophis
to teach menkind to disobey the jealous god. The serpent was also
called Christ, who taught Adam to eat the fruit of knowledge despite
Jehovah's prohibition.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/bos251.htm

Peter



rcjones -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/20/2008 6:33:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeterD

Hello rcjones

Internet Book of Shadows

Do you use this as a resource in your reasoning?
...
Peter


I do not. I am unfamiliar with it. But from your short quote I would suspect that it is from Gnostic and or Cabbalistic sources.
I would not recommend Gnostic, nor Cabbalism.

I give the basis for my reasoning on the site:

http://idontknownuthin.com/wiki/index.php/Letter_to_Mark

You will find a repudiation of Cabbalism on the site, as well as comments differentiating Gnostics.

quote:

I would say,

When Jewish hermeneutics are applied to Rev 17:9-11 that one layer of possibly four says"In fulfillment of prophecy, Christ takes away the sins of the church".

I would also say that anything too different from this misrepresents what I have said.


quote:

Since this teaching is around, is Sophia of the beast?


Does that look anything like what I said in Post 74? Please refrain from misrepresenting me.



rcjones -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/20/2008 6:43:38 PM)

quote:

Internet Book of Shadows

Do you use this as a resource in your reasoning?


From the old main page of the site:
http://idontknownuthin.com/wiki/index.php/Old_Main_Page

Rules discerned from the scriptures using the same hermeneutic:

1. Since God has said that not a jot or tittle will pass away, until one knows why each jot and tittle is there, a complete understanding has not been derived. (This keeps us humble)
2. Since man shall live "..by every word", a doctrine is not sound until it sums up and includes all that God has said about it. (This keeps us searching)
3. Since every word must be established by two or three witnesses, every shadow must have at least two supporting scripture witnesses. (This keeps us rigorous in methodology)
4. Since God's word is established forever, a shadow means the same thing everywhere is it used. So, since a donkey is a shadow of a prophet, everywhere there is a donkey, it is a shadow of a prophet. This rule alone makes the shadows humanly impossible to fabricate. (This keeps us an awe)
5. The riddle of Samson tells us Christ is the answer to all the riddles. If the shadow doesn't look like Christ, it isn't a good shadow. (This keeps us focussed)
6. And since we are to "let everyman be a liar and God be true", outside references are not required to solve the riddles and see the shadows. (This keeps us devoted)

I bolded the point you missed. Otherwise you wouldn't have to ask. I use nothing but the Bible and the Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries.



rcjones -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/20/2008 7:04:54 PM)

If you really wanted to know my "take" on the Garden account (Gen 2-5), you would look at

http://idontknownuthin.com/wiki/index.php/Dwg:Image_and_likeness_-_work_of_Christ_in_Abel.jpg

This shows that Christ is the "express image of God" and his bride is made "like him". Together, when they are "one flesh" they are the "image and likeness" of God.



rcjones -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/20/2008 7:14:56 PM)

quote:

I believe the beast to be a nation full of mystical adherents to numerology, new age, magic and over-spiritualized scripture interpretations.


I am sure that pointing out the irony of your own statement would be missed on you.

Since you are so opposed to over-spiritualizing, can you give me the plain sense, literal-historical scriptures you use for your belief of what the beast is?



ChristianRink -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/23/2008 1:59:25 AM)

Revelation 17 (The Woman Who Rides The Beast)

The Woman IS The Vatican

The Beast IS The European Union



MrFribbles -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/23/2008 10:17:24 AM)

quote:

The Woman IS The Vatican

The Beast IS The European Union


I assume, given your capitalized IS, that you have Scriptural proof for these claims?



Sinner-Saint -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/23/2008 4:09:45 PM)

He's not far off though...



ta_mosquito -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/23/2008 7:41:52 PM)

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A_Name_Written -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/23/2008 9:50:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Christian7246

Revelation 17 (The Woman Who Rides The Beast)

The Woman IS The Vatican

The Beast IS The European Union


I share half of your opinion/belief.

I believe the EU is the scarlet beast, and I would add that I also believe the 7 heads to be the original 7 capitals of the WEU (London, Paris, Brussels, Luxembourg, Amsterdam, Berlin, and Rome). Earlier in this thread I explain why I believe the 7 heads are 7 capitals.

I do not believe the whore is the Vatican. MANY Christians, even those who actually have studied history, have misunderstood the "Holy Roman Empire". The Vatican was NOT the seat of the Holy Roman Empire, and the Pope was not ruler over the empire, nor was he ever ruler over the entire earth, nor over all the kings of the earth (Only one city throughout the entire history of mankind truly qualifies as being the seat of rule which encompases every micrometer on earth, every king, every person, every animal, every bird, every insect, everything! Every King of every country is a signatory to an agreement to follow the policies which are created and enforced from within this city). The captial of the "Holy Roman Empire" was first Constantinople (a city ALSO built on seven hills), and later Vienna. The empire also had a "Holy Roman Emporer", who at times, had problems with the Pope with regard to church administration. The Pope would coronate an Emporer in Rome, but the Emporer did not rule from Rome, and the Pope. And as a matter of historical fact, regardless of what many believe, NO Pope EVER dethroned a "Holy Roman Emporer", but Holy Roman Emporers HAVE dethroned Popes!!!

Lastly, consider this verse:

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Anyone that is honest with themselves must throw their hands up on this one, including myself; for how can ANY ONE CITY ON EARTH be responsible for "all that were slain upon the earth" ? ? ? Yeah, I can see blaming the Popes for the slaying of prophets and saints, but of ALL THAT WERE SLAIN ON EARTH, that would be nothing short of a lie to believe something you were taught by others who knew no better and did not care to substantiate their belief beyond their prejudice against the catholic church. (for the record, I am not catholic)



Dan1138 -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/27/2008 12:27:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjones

quote:

I believe the beast to be a nation full of mystical adherents to numerology, new age, magic and over-spiritualized scripture interpretations.


I am sure that pointing out the irony of your own statement would be missed on you.

Since you are so opposed to over-spiritualizing, can you give me the plain sense, literal-historical scriptures you use for your belief of what the beast is?


That is a misrepresentation and nothing I have referred to. The beast of Rev 17 is revealed in Daniel 7. Mysticism is the tie that binds all world religions except Christianity. In place of signs we have faith. God's nature is to be revealing to his children. Here is a picture of his nature as Father.

Hosea 11

3 It was I who taught Ephraim to walk,
taking them by the arms;
but they did not realize
it was I who healed them.

4 I led them with cords of human kindness,
with ties of love;
I lifted the yoke from their neck
and bent down to feed them.



cybrjewls -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/27/2008 1:22:23 PM)

God IS Spirit and Must be worshipped in The Spirit and in The Truth. I AM The Truth said Jesus. Jesus said walk two miles as a donation, if forced. Paul do not Judge anything before the appointed time. At which time, then, were you appointed by GOD to be found more worthy than your neighbor in Judging them for finding a Pearl?

The natural things are but a shadow of things to come is written, and yet there in no excuse for nonbelief in those things as evidence of I AM and HIS Works, which He saw were good.

Good made numbers, God made power, God made spirits, God IS SPIRIT and His city is regarding those among The New Jerusalem. We must be on our guard against greed and looking down on others because 'knowledge is confounded by Gd and puffs up in pride'.

The Knowledge OF Gd comes From God, not from our darkened ways of futile thought processes that can be deceived by spiritual innundations from the 'powers that be' in the spiritual realm as written: we struggle not against each other, but with the spiritual realm.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan1138



I believe the beast to be a nation full of mystical adherents to numerology, new age, magic and over-spiritualized scripture interpretations.



Diolectic -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (8/11/2008 12:24:03 PM)

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness...
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness,
Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast

The woman would be Israel.
Israel is till a h@arlot today.

Revelation 17
Note: God is dealing with Israel, not Rome nor the RC. Rome is not married to any one, but Israel is(was) married to God. After the Church and true Israel is raptured, all that is left is the wh0re which is unrepentant Israel, even today. I believe as the church is grafted into the Olive Tree and Israel is grafted back in , the world is grafted in to the same tree as the whore. Therefore, all that is left after God takes for His own is of the wh0re, whom He punishes with His wrath.



diddl2007 -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (8/12/2008 10:49:31 AM)

I believe that the beast is islam and mahomet is the false prophet and the great worse is all false religions in the world (catholic, budhism, indhuism...)

Revelation 17:16
And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

islam hates the other religions and want to destroy them all.

Revelation 13:15
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

We see islam on TV, on internet...

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image...

islam behead...

Revelation 13:11-12
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed
And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men ...

There is 2 beasts and in islam there is sunni islam and chiism islam, sunni islam is in the majoritary of islam countries (ben laden) and chiism islam is in Iran and Hezbollah in the North Liban.
mahomet conquered many countries in his time but after islam has lost many countries and now we see islam who heal because we see islam come back in the world.


PS : Excuse me if I don't write very well English because I'm French.



Diolectic -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (8/12/2008 12:14:43 PM)

Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit: , and go into perditionand they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Note: Jesus was and is and is to come, a complete contrast to the devil

Ref. Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season (shall ascend out of the bottomless pit).
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are.and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (and go into perdition)
Isa 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto you, are you also become weak as we? Are you become like unto us? (shall wonder)

According to this, the beast is none other than the Devil himself.
However, the Anti-christ is also called a beast, who is mentioned in Rev. 20:10.



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