RE: The beast of Rev 17 (Full Version)

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A_Name_Written -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/13/2008 9:24:39 PM)

Might this have something to do with the scarlet colored beast?

"43 nations creating Mediterranean union"
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gA3JKv8WBuDw0Tmc8xbOIW8ShXjAD91SVNTG0

NOTE: These 43 nations look incredibly similar to the Roman Empire ! ! !



eschatologist -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/13/2008 9:37:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjones

Here is a completely different approach to solving the riddle of the beast:

http://idontknownuthin.com/wiki/index.php/Chapter_20

The meaning in riddles and double entendre is "Christ takes away the sins of the church."

See the solution at the site above.


I'm sorry, but your riddle just doesn't add up to the reality of the scriptures. You seem to think that this kind of thing is based on scripture. So, what does revelations 17 say?

Verse 6: "And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus"

This verse states that this "Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the earth"is responsible for persecuting and martyring and killing the Saints of Jesus. She does it through the beast that she rides upon. To say that the beast represents Christ who takes away the sins of the world is to say that the Whore rides on the back of Jesus for the purpose of killing Jesus' children. Anybody can see how ridiculous that is.

This beast is a seven headed beast. Verse 9: The seven heads are seven Mountains, on which the woman sitteth." Mountains represent kings and kingdoms as verse 10 says, "and there are seven kings: five are fallen and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh he must continue a short space." The seven heads on the beast represent man's world empires and governments. Five were already past, one was in power in John's day (the Roman empire), and one is still to come in the future and continue for a short time. This last one is the antichrist empire which scripture says will continue for 3.5 years.

verse 12 and 13: "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have recieved no kingdom as yet; but recieve power one hour (A very short time) with the beast. These have one mind, (they'll be united) and shall give thier power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords and King of kings."

Now we know that Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, and that He is Lord of lords and King of Kings. So, here we have the beast and the ten nations who unite together with the beast making war with Jesus and His Saints. So if Jesus is the beast then I guess that means He is making war with Himself and killing His own saints. And of course we know this is not true, therefore we know that your interpretaion of the beast of revelation is also not true. It is not scriptural and it is not based on scripture.


The beast of revelations is actually the antichrist. The reason it is a seven headed beast with each head representing a king and an empire is because the Antichrists kingdom will be a culmination of all the devilish and hatemongering and evil kingdoms of man from the beginning of time till the end. This antichrist kingdom will persecute and kill God's children but Jesus and His saints will prevail in the end. This time of the antichrists rule is known as the great tribulation. At the end of the great tribulation Jesus comes back to rescue His saved children from the evil clutches of the beast, (The antichrist). After He comes back and we're all safely in Heaven He pours out His wrath upon all the wicked that are left on the earth. This wrath of God culminates with Jesus and all of us Saints coming down from Heaven riding on white horses and slaughtering the forces of the antichrist in the battle of Armageddon. The beast (the antichrist) and the false prophet (the second best) are both cast alive into the lake of fire. (into perdition.)

Revelations 19:20 says, "And the beast (the antichrist) was taken, and with him the false prophet...These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

So, the scriptures say the beast is the Antichrist, not the Christ. Jesus, the Christ, is the sacrificial Lamb who was killed for the sins of the whole world, by the beast of His day, the Roman empire. and all of God's children have been persecuted and some have been martyed down through the ages by man's governments which are influenced by the whore of Babylon who rides on their backs.This persecution and tribulation of God's children will end with the greatest persecution and tribulation of all time by the antichrist 0ne-world government which is almost upon us. So, who is the whore of babylon? Maybe I'll tell you in a different thread. This one's getting too long.



Sinner-Saint -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/14/2008 1:32:00 AM)

Argumentum ad nauseam (argument to the point of disgust; i.e., by repetition) This is the fallacy of trying to prove something by saying it again and again. But no matter how many times you repeat something, it will not become any more or less true than it was in the first place. Of course, it is not a fallacy to state the truth again and again; what is fallacious is to expect the repetition alone to substitute for real arguments.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjones
Thought I'd double check. Yep the link is still there... just follow the links. Willful ignorance is no excuse for scoffing. I explain how they are derived either from the dictionary or from other riddles.

The only ignorance here is the complete lack of word study.

I scoff because your word study is twisted. You literally have no scholarly basis to derive an interpretation out of a name which does not exist in its original language.

Now if you want to be polite in debate, you could at least admit your errors. Stomping your feet and taking your ball and going back home by hitting the "ignore button" is hardly the response one gets from a mature individual who has the power of evidence on his side.

The whole point of Rev 17 is to reveal a mystery which was contained in other prophecy. To take what is wicked and have you turn it all around by your bogus word-study into Jesus borders on heresy.

Any one else find it mildly comical that the rcjones' website is entitled: "i don't know nothing?"



cybrjewls -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/14/2008 1:36:46 AM)

Greetings! God in His Wisdom said: the wisdom of the wise I will confound and Jesus said 'Praise you for you have hidden these things from the wise and learned and revealed them to little children, for that was your Good pleasure. For knowledge puffs up, but Love edifies for God is Love and Love comes from God.

God said: I will speak to this people with a foreign tongue and though seeing they may not see and perceiving they may not perceive and turn and I would heal them. Jesus said, 'This is why I speak to them in parables....' Unless one becomes like a little child one will not enter The Kingdom of God.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn

I just really don't believe God filled the Bible with riddles. It's inconsistant with what we know of Him. He made His word simple enough for all mankind to understand so that all are without excuse.



rcjones -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/14/2008 2:25:26 AM)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn

I just really don't believe God filled the Bible with riddles. It's inconsistant with what we know of Him. He made His word simple enough for all mankind to understand so that all are without excuse.


Thank you for admitting your biases. Finally some integrity. The proper response then is to answer Post 7 which has scriptures saying that He does speak in riddles.

quote:


Peter you are close and I am proud of your post. You hint at God's character. Now this argument will only hold water with those who know God. Jesus spoke in parables to confuse the pharisees. I am glad rcjones posted the Ezekial text I plan to eat it up with study. God is not dark with his children, but only with his enemies, so that the Holy Spirit reveals truth and God gets the credit.


God says he blinded Israel:
37 ¶ But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

The Old Testament contains the mystery which is Christ. One the road to Emmaus he opened their eyes to the scriptures that spoke of Him. The ridddles just show what he showed them.

There are no mysteries since Christ has been revealed. All the riddles speak of Him. But God spoke riddles to Israel which are still contained as riddles in the OT.

quote:


rcjones you seem to be seeking secret knowledge in bible text.


Why would you try to insinuate something devious? I have stated plainly what I look for in shadows, and how I find them. "The law has a shadow..." and I seek it.

All the "secret knowledge" is main plain in Christ. I explained how I came to see them at:
http://idontknownuthin.com/wiki/index.php/Letter_to_Mark

I am sure you didn't mean to attribute motive.

quote:


That is out of God's character. I like the saying: "make the main things the main things and the plain things the plain things." rcjones you are neither main nor plain with these ideas.


And I would be accused of invention? I am being judged by someone's new scripture. Not since the days of the Pharisees has anyone had the gall to so blatantly invent scripture and judge people by it.

If it is out of God's character, then please answer the scriptures that say he speaks in riddles rather than attack my character.

quote:

They are dangerous. They are pride filled. What are the three things satan always tempts with: power, passions and possessions. See Eve's and Christ's temptation.


Oh sorry. You did mean to attribute motive...
So now you judge me as being prideful? Wherein is there power, passions or possessions in sharing Christ in the scriptures?

I have placed the shadows online to be reviewed by others and be validated and or falsified, and you see pride in that? How would you suggest I get review of them if not by showing them to others?

The many shadows of Christ demonstrated at the site speak for themselves. My character, prideful or not has nothing to do with their existence. You have not demonstrated that they are invention. You have only stated that they do not exist. (And what pride is in that statement? To absolutely know that something does not exist? It takes only one real shadow in the scriptures to prove your arrogance. You can only guess at mine.)

I could be the most prideful person in the world and it has nothing to do with the evidence that the shadows exist and that anyone can see them.

A ten year old girl connected the dots between the split water, the spit rock, the two tablets of the law and the torn veil and realized that they all pointed to the cross when the Father and Son were separated. She realized that God, who is one was torn at the cross. And this is dangerous?

Certainly we can't have ten year olds thinking of Christ when they read scriptures... this is dangerous.
Certainly we shouldn't think of Christ when reading the Tamar story... this is dangerous...
Certainly we shouldn't see Christ in His own word... this is dangerous...

Do you really intend to place yourself in the company of those who think reading the Bible and seeking Christ there is dangerous? You are welcome to that crowd: atheists, agnostics, theosophists, satanists, Mormons, Harry Potter fans.

http://www.chaser.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1406&Itemid=26

If your God would send me to hell for pointing to Christ in the scriptures, then I will gladly spend eternity there, because Christ is worthy to be seen in all His word.

Show me a single dangerous shadow on the site. They all speak of Christ and give Him glory. They show God's fingerprints on His word... and this is dangerous?

God speaks of His Son in the shadows... If my pride or any of my sin gets in the way of people seeing that, then remove me from the equation and go see it for yourself. I am not relevant to the discussion. They exist or not on their own.


So now that we are hopefully past the scoffing we have reached the personal attack stage...

Why don't you spend just half of your effort to understand the shadows and see Christ in the scriptures?
The language of riddles is the language of children.


Eschatologist hasn't even read the previous posts and merely attempts to compare it to his interpretation... same error.


quote:

I scoff because your word study is twisted. You literally have no scholarly basis to derive an interpretation out of a name which does not exist in its original language.


Lets see. I cut and pasted from a dictionary to show what it says about Tubalcain, and you claim it does not exist. I admit it. I am at the mercy of the Hebrew dictionary I use.

And I agree repetition doesn't prove anything. So please stop comparing apples and oranges repeatedly, and I won't have to point out the fallacy repeatedly. It does get tiring.

You say there is an error in word study, then please address it... Simply saying it is bad or doesn't exist or that it is fanciful does not contribute substance. You didn't even mention Carson and Silva.

The 32 rules of Rabbi Eliezer allow for synonyms, homonyms, homographs, puns and tracing roots, etc. So please give me the basis for your opinions on word studies then explain the fault.

quote:

Now if you want to be polite in debate, you could at least admit your errors. Stomping your feet and taking your ball and going back home by hitting the "ignore button" is hardly the response one gets from a mature individual who has the power of evidence on his side.


I apologize for attempting to follow scripture in this:
Pr 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

I would hope to get away from non-topical banter, and content-less scoffing just drags me into the same foolishness. Would you prefer I post responses that say "Does too, does not, does too."? The scoffers have merely asserted opinions to be fact. I have asked for meaningful review.

I have systematically addressed each issue. Give me a list, and I will be happy to address each point that you think I missed. Where did I miss any salient point that you made?

quote:

The whole point of Rev 17 is to reveal a mystery which was contained in other prophecy. To take what is wicked and have you turn it all around by your bogus word-study into Jesus borders on heresy.


Oh yes. that was a salient point... You know the "whole point of Rev 17", and I am accused of arrogance? This is the type of banter does not address the issue and the only "mature response" appropriate is to ignore it. So I apologize for my childishness in responding to it. But I am trying to follow:
Pr 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

I think claiming to know the "whole point of Rev 17" falls into the category of conceit.

It's a delicate balance trying to have a conversation with you and knowing whether to answer or not.

The language of riddles is the language of children. Children in our fellowship can see them easily. Forget me and just go look for yourself.



Sinner-Saint -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/14/2008 10:05:28 AM)

I have several concordances, The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, and the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament edited by Harris, Archer and Waltke and all of them refute your definition of Tubal-cain.

Ya know rc; you're out there.

I don't mind going against the flow from time to time on certain things. For instance, I see no reason to confine the first four Seals to the one 'seven' and I do not equate the four parts of Nebuchadnezzar's statue with the four beasts (although there are parallels). However, I do so based on the language which is written, in context, with support by Scripture which is actually connected to it, and buttress that by good word study.

But on this topic rc: you're so far out there, you're lost.

A rule of debate online goes like this: the first person to call the other one "a Nazi" has lost. Christians do the same when they quote Scripture at other Christians calling them a fool.

Doubly lost... You may now play on your own. This thread is worthless except to watch the carnage.



A_Name_Written -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/14/2008 1:10:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint

... This thread is worthless except to watch the carnage.


Something JUST happened over the weekend that may (or may not) have something to do with the beast of Rev 17; Above this page (page 3 of this thread) I posted a link to a news article about the newly formed Mediterranean Union. I would think this thread is appropriate to discuss this, but perhaps not, since it may appear as "hijacking". So, do I start a new thread ? ? ?



rcjones -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/14/2008 6:56:01 PM)

Now for the only real content you have contributed in this post:

quote:

I have several concordances, The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, and the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament edited by Harris, Archer and Waltke and all of them refute your definition of Tubal-cain.


That's interesting. You do not know the meaning of "refute" and yet you claim to be in a debate. To refute is to prove it wrong or deny it. Simply not having it does not refute anything unless the dictionary is in fact the dictionary of all times which contains every word. You must have abridged versions of the dictionary.

I have The Online Bible v 2.10.09 and it says what I copied and pasted.

A quick google:

And this site shows the root of Tubal, (yabal) meaning to bring, carry, lead, conduct...
http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Jabal.html

This one has it meaning "Thou wilt be brought of Cain". Obviously from the same root of yabal.
http://static.wikipedia.org/new/wikipedia/en/articles/l/a/m/Lamech.html

This one shows the root yaval means "lead":
http://weeklyparashahebrewinsights.blogspot.com/2007/05/parashat-behar-bechukotai.html

So before you imply someone is a liar, you might just ask him where he got his information so that you don't look like one of those in Proverbs...
And you might want to select reading materials from a broader spectrum.

Since modernism doesn't like to think that God actually wrote His word, I suspect your dictionaries have dropped the roots of many words because of this. Carson and Silva say you can't trace roots. But I have answered that as well here:

http://idontknownuthin.com/wiki/index.php/Chapter_5

To recap: There is an interesting observation in Rev 17 when you use an ancient hermeneutic that discovers meaning in double entendre and riddles.
Double entendre and riddles are not literal interpretation and cannot be mixed with literal interpretation without creating a nonsensical jumble.
So if you attempt to mix the solution to the riddle with your beast that eats Tokyo, it won't work.

Though it looks complicated, children do it naturally. When a child hears the word bear, he must think of all the meanings that it has as well as all the meanings of 'bare' as well. Often they come up with meaning that the speaker did not intend and is usually humorous.

When a child hears of a split rock, if he is familiar with the other stories will also think of the parting water, and the torn veil.
This is child's play and the primary barrier to doing it is that most of us are not familiar with the Hebrew words. We have 12 children in our study between the ages of 8 an 16 and they can all discern shadows for themselves.

Anyone who has actually read my site will know that I do not claim them to be valid. I leave that to others to validate. I simply make the observations and share them, and attempt to make sense of them as though they were valid.

I have seen enough of them (many more than recorded, since that is a lot of work) that I personally believe them to be real, and having said that know that there are parts that are more speculative at the moment than others. The rules will eventually flush them out as more of the scripture has been unpacked.

I am most anxious that others can see them and be blessed by them as I have been.

---
If you wish to ignore the banter, Stop here.
---

quote:

A rule of debate online goes like this: the first person to call the other one "a Nazi" has lost. Christians do the same when they quote Scripture at other Christians calling them a fool.


And therein is your first arrogance in presuming this is a contest. I didn't come here to debate. I have clearly stated repeatedly that I would like intelligent discussion concerning it.

But if you really wish to keep score then I won long ago.

#2. means that they are either looking through the wrong end of their telescope [nazi], or they really have no idea what Revelation 17 actually says [nazi].
#12 You're sounding a bit gnostic[nazi] to me there.
#31 Some [nazi] people need serious professional help.
#43 That site is bordering on [nazi] heretical in my opinion
#49 dangerous and pride filled [nazi]
#53 immature [nazi]

quote:

Doubly lost... You may now play on your own. This thread is worthless except to watch the carnage.


You can't count. My 6 preceded your 2. I win your silly game. So thank you for tucking tail and running. hmm.. I'm not sure if I should have answered that one or not, I think I fell ...



ta_mosquito -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/14/2008 8:52:35 PM)

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PeterD -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/15/2008 12:07:28 AM)

Hello ta_mosquito

I agree and thank you for the warning!

(Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition.)

Revelation 17
1And there came one of the seven angels, who had the seven vials, and spoke with me, saying: Come, I will shew thee the condemnation of the great harlot, who sitteth upon many waters,
2With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication; and they who inhabit the earth, have been made drunk with the whine of her whoredom.

3And he took me away in spirit into the desert. And I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4And the woman was clothed round about with purple and scarlet, and gilt with gold, and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand, full of the abomination and filthiness of her fornication.

5And on her forehead a name was written: A mystery; Babylon the great, the mother of the fornications, and the abominations of the earth.

6And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And I wondered, when I had seen her, with great admiration.

7And the angel said to me: Why dost thou wonder? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast which carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

8The beast, which thou sawest, was, and is not, and shall come up out of the bottomless pit, and go into destruction: and the inhabitants on the earth (whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world) shall wonder, seeing the beast that was, and is not.

9And here is the understanding that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, upon which the woman sitteth, and they are seven kings:

10Five are fallen, one is, and the other is not yet come: and when he is come, he must remain a short time.

11And the beast which was, and is not: the same also is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into destruction.

12And the ten horns which thou sawest, are ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom, but shall receive power as kings one hour after the beast.

13These have one design: and their strength and power they shall deliver to the beast.

14These shall fight with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because he is Lord of lords, and King of kings, and they that are with him are called, and elect, and faithful.

15And he said to me: The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and nations, and tongues.

16And the ten horns which thou sawest in the beast: these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her with fire.

17For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

18And the woman which thou sawest, is the great city, which hath kingdom over the kings of the earth.

Revelation 17:17

17For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

For God hath given into their hearts to do...till the words of God be fulfilled.


Romans 9:17:23

17For the scripture saith to Pharao: To this purpose have I raised thee, that I may shew my power in thee, and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore he hath mercy on whom he will; and whom he will, he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say therefore to me: Why doth he then find fault? for who resisteth his will?

20O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it: Why hast thou made me thus?

21Or hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction,

23That he might shew the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he hath prepared unto glory?


Peter



JesKlu -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/15/2008 1:03:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eschatologist
This wrath of God culminates with Jesus and all of us Saints coming down from Heaven riding on white horses and slaughtering the forces of the antichrist in the battle of Armageddon. The beast (the antichrist) and the false prophet (the second best) are both cast alive into the lake of fire. (into perdition.)


Isn't it the angels who are on the white horses, since the verse says armies of heaven?

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/15/2008 2:27:17 AM)

quote:

NOTE: The ONLY thing debatable about the above is NOT whether it exists or not, but whether it's existence is random or designed. How it is that any true follower of Christ, and believer in the Word of God BEING the inspired message of God for mankind, could possibly believe this acrostic is there only by RANDOM chance, would be for ME, absolutely mind boggling!
Speaking of biases...

And this is the major problem of those holding to an orthodox futurist POV... the subject of this discussion is looking for mere validation of their premise and not dispute. My response was in now way intended as mocking, but was labled as such anyway. So, if you are attempting to disprove the "observation" made by the OP, save your breath... they are looking for people discussing their certain hermaneutic, not for feedback about the idea of the entire vision of Revelation being nothing more than a picture of Christ's redemption of mankind.

Personally, I find that rather interesting... especially since Chapter 17 makes referrence to the horns of the beast making war with the Lamb. The only way to derive this meaning from the text is to take what is believed to be an "ancient hermaneutic", and seperate Chapter 17:3-13 from everything around it (otherwise known as "context)... pair it up with what is a genuine oddity (the redemption plan being written in the names of seven generations from Adam), and claim that one interprets the other. Personally, it is very fishy considering that Genesis is written in Hebrew and Revelation was written in Greek. If the OP is truly concerned with the meaning of exact words, this should give them pause. But then again, I have been ignored already.
quote:

Isn't it the angels who are on the white horses, since the verse says armies of heaven?

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
Eh... there is some discussion/debate about the identity of the armies of heaven. Personally, I think it could be angels, but since the rapture immediately preceeds it, it is a strong possibility that it could also be resurrected saints... or even some combination of the two. Basically, the Bible doesn't say, so make your own conclusion.

Adam



rcjones -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/15/2008 7:57:52 AM)

Thank you moderator.

quote:

Revelation 17:17

17For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

For God hath given into their hearts to do...till the words of God be fulfilled.

Romans 9:17:23


I believe you have made a valid correlation. The shadows are like a watermark behind the words that are written. As mentioned, Catholics and Jews believe there are four layers of meaning. I believe that eventually we will find four meanings spoken in the voices of the priest, king, judge and prophet.

I think your correlation will apply in the voice of the judge. There will be a divine decree with earthly consequences. The voice that popular typology chases is that of the king. Literal words with "historical" (although they be futurist history) meaning. I am chasing the voice of the priest. Hidden meaning with heavenly pictures.

So let's just do some more and see what pops out.

"Though your sins be as scarlet" The beast has the color of sin, as Christ was made to be sin.
"full of names of blasphemy" Christ makes the name of God common without sinning by making Him known to all men.
"Seven heads" - full authority (implied of Christ)
"ten" - dual natured man
"horns" - not fully unpacked yet but must include the horns of the ram in the thicket, the horns blown at the feasts etc. I tentatively think it is a "revelation" of Christ. There are four horns on the altar, as the four voices of God, seven horn the full revelation of God, two horns on the ram shows that there was only half of the full revelation at that time. He was revealed in hidden terms (the ram), but not yet in the flesh.

The colors and clothing look like those of the priest in Lev. And she holds the Divine (golden ) cup of wrath containing her sin, just as the wrath of God was upon Christ as he took our sin. So holding the cup is like holding the cross.

v5. "on her forehead" God places his seal upon the forehead.
"A mystery Babylon the great" the flesh is the mother of all fornications.
At this point the woman is both a priest (but not seeing clearly) and the flesh.

v6 And I saw her in the spirit with the life of the saints and the life of the martyrs.
"with great admiration" - curious reaction if the woman is not the church...

I have to go to work now...



Dan1138 -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/15/2008 8:26:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: A_Name_Written

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn

I just really don't believe God filled the Bible with riddles. It's inconsistant with what we know of Him. He made His word simple enough for all mankind to understand so that all are without excuse.


It isn't so much that God "filled" His Word with riddles, but more like He "MAY HAVE" kept a few things purposefully hidden, to be revealed for a certain time of His choosing. Consider the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrostic

the first letter of each consecutive Hebrew name from Adam to the father of Abraham appears to form an acrostic that reads, "I will forgive my enemies, having compassion, forgiving those made from dust a second time".

NOTE: The ONLY thing debatable about the above is NOT whether it exists or not, but whether it's existence is random or designed. How it is that any true follower of Christ, and believer in the Word of God BEING the inspired message of God for mankind, could possibly believe this acrostic is there only by RANDOM chance, would be for ME, absolutely mind boggling!


If this exists please display it here as there are many liars in the World who would postulate amazing falsehoods simply to entertain themselves. Of course the whole word of God is God designed and never random. The question is does this "new prophesy" found in scripture follow the Spirit of Christ or does it point in a direction that does not support Christ.



Dan1138 -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/15/2008 8:38:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan1138

quote:

ORIGINAL: A_Name_Written

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn

I just really don't believe God filled the Bible with riddles. It's inconsistant with what we know of Him. He made His word simple enough for all mankind to understand so that all are without excuse.


It isn't so much that God "filled" His Word with riddles, but more like He "MAY HAVE" kept a few things purposefully hidden, to be revealed for a certain time of His choosing. Consider the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrostic

the first letter of each consecutive Hebrew name from Adam to the father of Abraham appears to form an acrostic that reads, "I will forgive my enemies, having compassion, forgiving those made from dust a second time".

NOTE: The ONLY thing debatable about the above is NOT whether it exists or not, but whether it's existence is random or designed. How it is that any true follower of Christ, and believer in the Word of God BEING the inspired message of God for mankind, could possibly believe this acrostic is there only by RANDOM chance, would be for ME, absolutely mind boggling!


If this exists please display it here as there are many liars in the World who would postulate amazing falsehoods simply to entertain themselves. Of course the whole word of God is God designed and never random. The question is does this "new prophesy" found in scripture follow the Spirit of Christ or does it point in a direction that does not support Christ.


This comes from a post in wikipedia, not a trusted source. Furthermore it has no references in the article, but the poster in wiki has posted in numerology which is New Age. I could be wrong but this seems to be misleading. Once again support this acrostic.



Dan1138 -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/15/2008 8:45:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjones

...The language of riddles is the language of children. Children in our fellowship can see them easily...

What is your fellowship called?



rcjones -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/15/2008 6:01:34 PM)

quote:

If this exists please display it here as there are many liars in the World who would postulate amazing falsehoods simply to entertain themselves. Of course the whole word of God is God designed and never random. The question is does this "new prophesy" found in scripture follow the Spirit of Christ or does it point in a direction that does not support Christ.


I don't know anything about acrostics and generally avoid such things. As for lots of samples of shadows see http://idontknownuthin.com

Although the shadows show "new" things, I haven't found any that are contradictory to scripture, nor is there anything I have found that I would say is necessary for salvation, as they generally tell the same story over and over again of Christ having dominion and being fruitful and multiplying with his bride.

They do tend to support one side or the other on some issues. For instance, they teach the Trinity more so than the literal. The imagery is clear that our sins are removed from us so much so that we are represented by a virgin bride, not a redeemed prostitute. Those who have studied with me for two years say that the shadows really show the heart of God and have given them confidence that He is involved in every detail of their lives.



Dan1138 -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/15/2008 8:37:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjones

quote:

If this exists please display it here as there are many liars in the World who would postulate amazing falsehoods simply to entertain themselves. Of course the whole word of God is God designed and never random. The question is does this "new prophesy" found in scripture follow the Spirit of Christ or does it point in a direction that does not support Christ.


I don't know anything about acrostics and generally avoid such things. As for lots of samples of shadows see http://idontknownuthin.com

Although the shadows show "new" things, I haven't found any that are contradictory to scripture, nor is there anything I have found that I would say is necessary for salvation, as they generally tell the same story over and over again of Christ having dominion and being fruitful and multiplying with his bride.

They do tend to support one side or the other on some issues. For instance, they teach the Trinity more so than the literal. The imagery is clear that our sins are removed from us so much so that we are represented by a virgin bride, not a redeemed prostitute. Those who have studied with me for two years say that the shadows really show the heart of God and have given them confidence that He is involved in every detail of their lives.
quote:

If this exists please display it here as there are many liars in the World who would postulate amazing falsehoods simply to entertain themselves. Of course the whole word of God is God designed and never random. The question is does this "new prophesy" found in scripture follow the Spirit of Christ or does it point in a direction that does not support Christ.


That's great that you have an opinion and a website and an unnamed fellowship, but if this exists please display it here as there are many liars in the World who would postulate amazing falsehoods simply to entertain themselves. Of course the whole word of God is God designed and never random. The question is does this "new prophesy" found in scripture follow the Spirit of Christ or does it point in a direction that does not support Christ. What is the name of your fellowship.



rcjones -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/15/2008 9:21:09 PM)

quote:

That's great that you have an opinion and a website and an unnamed fellowship, but if this exists please display it here as there are many liars in the World who would postulate amazing falsehoods simply to entertain themselves. Of course the whole word of God is God designed and never random. The question is does this "new prophesy" found in scripture follow the Spirit of Christ or does it point in a direction that does not support Christ. What is the name of your fellowship.



1. There is no new prophecy. I do not claim to be a prophet. I only claim to correlate scripture, and I would appreciate it if you wouldn't misrepresent me.
2. Repeating your identical post is taunting.
3. Since there are over 300 pages sharing shadows, I shall decline to post them all here.
4. I decline to give you personal information since you have taken a hostile position. If you continue to push the issue, I will further consider it harassment.
5. Implying that if I do not meet your demands that I am a liar is harassment. And I believe a violation of the TOS.

If you have specific questions concerning the OP ask away.



Dan1138 -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/15/2008 10:23:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjones

quote:

That's great that you have an opinion and a website and an unnamed fellowship, but if this exists please display it here as there are many liars in the World who would postulate amazing falsehoods simply to entertain themselves. Of course the whole word of God is God designed and never random. The question is does this "new prophesy" found in scripture follow the Spirit of Christ or does it point in a direction that does not support Christ. What is the name of your fellowship.



1. There is no new prophecy. I do not claim to be a prophet. I only claim to correlate scripture, and I would appreciate it if you wouldn't misrepresent me.
2. Repeating your identical post is taunting.
3. Since there are over 300 pages sharing shadows, I shall decline to post them all here.
4. I decline to give you personal information since you have taken a hostile position. If you continue to push the issue, I will further consider it harassment.
5. Implying that if I do not meet your demands that I am a liar is harassment. And I believe a violation of the TOS.

If you have specific questions concerning the OP ask away.


My sincere apologies. I assume that you are not used to critical debate in your fellowship. Please feel free to re-read my previous posts as I think you will see that I was not at all hostile just discerning. I am not asking for your address just what your fellowship type is. I personally feel that the Beast of Rev 17 is a nation full of mystics, new agers, numerologists and other wizards. In fact the book of Revelations speaks of Balaamites and Nicolaitans just like these new agers. The saddest part is that many will call themselves Christ followers, I believe. They may even be shadow and acrostic correlaters. That is why I encourage everyone to read the Bible for themselves and beware of false teachers. It is always pride that gets into peoples way.



PeterD -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/16/2008 9:59:49 AM)

Hello

Yesterday at my weekly Bible study with the Jews for Jesus a new person should up for class. Tuesdays reading started with the minor prophet Nahum.

After the study I spoke with the new visitor a Roman Catholic and I asked him if he saw the connection between Revelation 17:17 and Romans 9:17 and his answer was, "the beast was Nero." Why Nero? We also spoke other things as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero

Namely the Jews for Jesus don't have Roman Catholics attending their Bible studies.

Peter Daniel



rcjones -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/16/2008 5:56:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan1138

My sincere apologies. I assume that you are not used to critical debate in your fellowship. Please feel free to re-read my previous posts as I think you will see that I was not at all hostile just discerning. I am not asking for your address just what your fellowship type is. I personally feel that the Beast of Rev 17 is a nation full of mystics, new agers, numerologists and other wizards. In fact the book of Revelations speaks of Balaamites and Nicolaitans just like these new agers. The saddest part is that many will call themselves Christ followers, I believe. They may even be shadow and acrostic correlaters. That is why I encourage everyone to read the Bible for themselves and beware of false teachers. It is always pride that gets into peoples way.


I would think that a proper way to discern doctrine is to evaluate doctrine rather than evaluate the name of a fellowship and make wild insinuations. But then idontknownuthin.com

The doctrine taught in the OP are these:

From Cain: Christ was the possessor of the sins of the church
From Enoch: Christ walked with God
From Irad: Christ was a Son-prophet
From Mehujael: Christ was Smitten by God
From Methusael: Christ was man and God
From Lamech: Christ is Powerful
From Jabal and Jubal: Christ is the Word of God in heaven and on earth

From the descendants of Cain and Seth: Christ dies so man may live.
From the riddle of the seven: Christ is, and comes in power
From the riddle of the beast: In fulfillment of prophecy, Christ takes away the sins of the church

Do you discern any hint of heretical doctrine?

Can you tell me what a "shadow correlator" is and point me to their sites? I have been unable to find others and have been actively looking for them.
If you cannot show me any, isn't your apology just another veiled insinuation that I am to be counted among wizards, New Agers, Balaamites, etc?

But then I am unaccustomed to critical debate...



Sinner-Saint -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/16/2008 7:38:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjones
The woman represents a city which has dominion over every kingdom on earth; the angel says so.

The shadows agree with this. She is Mystery Babylon which the shadows say is the flesh nature of the church and the spiritual nature of the church.

So I believe your method is in agreement with the the shadows, but that we are chasing different voices.

As I mentioned, I am chasing the voice of the priest.

Nowhere did I make Jesus from the line of Cain.

It should say that Cain represents Christ in the same way that Adam represents Christ.

Shadows are more "idea objects" than words.

I would think the shear number of shadows produced using the hermeneutic already would demonstrate the impossibility of human invention.

Why would you try to insinuate something devious? I have stated plainly what I look for in shadows, and how I find them. "The law has a shadow..." and I seek it.

All the "secret knowledge" is main plain in Christ.

Watch out when people try to teach secret knowledge for that was the first heresy the Church fought. And watch out for people who teach shadowy things which go against Christ's nature. To say Jesus is the beast of Rev 17 goes against the revelation John receives on the actual nature of the beast which is demonic.

REV 17:12 "The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13 They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings--and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."

The beast is not the Lamb.

REV 17:15 Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. 16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled. 18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."

Are there shadows? Yes.
Can certain things foreshadow things to come? Yes.
Can literal things and people foreshadow other things and people? Yes.
Are there shadows in all things and people? No.
Are there shadows in these verses? I doubt it.

These are end-time verses which depict a situation which has existed throughout the Church Age. There is precious little to foreshadow at this point unless you want to correlate the city the woman represents to God's Camp in Jerusalem in the Millennium, but I'd say that is a very poor correlation to make.

Are there symbols in the Bible? Yes.
Are there symbols involved in these verses? Yes.
Can things and people be depicted symbolically? Yes.
Are all the symbols in the book of Jesus' Revelation about Him? No.
Does Jesus through the Father reveal these symbols to John for us? Yes.

What we can see plainly in the light of Jesus' revelation which disperses shadows is that He is not the beast and the woman is not the Church which is His Bride.

The error rcjones makes is to use shadows to arbitrarily say this means that and that means this. In trying to find Christ in all of the Bible, he makes the mistake of trying to pin the tail on the donkey when there is no donkey even there.



rcjones -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/16/2008 9:48:40 PM)

I would say,

When Jewish hermeneutics are applied to Rev 17:9-11 that one layer of possibly four says"In fulfillment of prophecy, Christ takes away the sins of the church".

I would also say that anything too different from this misrepresents what I have said.



Sinner-Saint -> RE: The beast of Rev 17 (7/16/2008 9:57:53 PM)

And I would say that is such a stretch of the language of Tubal-cain as to be nonsensical.

Of course Jesus takes away the sin of the world, but to find it where you did is only the result of trying to see Jesus in everything.

It's really not that hard.

KISS: Keep it simple.



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