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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/26/2008 6:47:31 AM
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ElmerFishpaw
Posts: 154
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No, all I wrote is that I think Dobson is nutty. My aunt is a Christian and I think she's nutty too (not because she is Christian however)
quote:
ORIGINAL: lpt
quote:
ORIGINAL: ElmerFishpaw
It's beyond me why Obama would want to meet with a nut like Dobson.
So you feel more affinity with someone who wants to see babies killed even after they've been born alive, than with someone who has committed his life to nurturing and defending the family?
Why such hatred for a (I assume) fellow Christian?
_____________________________
"Aurora Borealis is Latin for flying saucer headlights"
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/26/2008 7:47:11 AM
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Lizahana
Posts: 1074
Joined: 4/20/2005
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All I've got to say is Julius (saved9201) and Evangel70 - your posts are some of the best I've ever read on these forums. It's a pleasure reading them.
Peace and God bless,
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/26/2008 10:33:09 AM
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hnt
Posts: 527
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lpt
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: ElmerFishpaw
It's beyond me why Obama would want to meet with a nut like Dobson.
Dr. Irrelevant would live the pub he'd get by meeting with Obummer. After all, he's met with the likes of Dr. laura and Ted Bundy, LOL
The hatred for a godly Christian man whose life has been committed to the family is stunning....
What are you talking about?
Disagreement with someone like Dobson doesn't mean hatred. I mean there is a difference.
_____________________________
h
Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/26/2008 10:38:13 AM
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tafkam
Posts: 2232
Joined: 9/23/2005
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quote:
Disagreement with someone like Dobson doesn't mean hatred. I mean there is a difference.
Oh, so words like "nut" and other degrogatory terms found in these threads just mean "disagreement"?
Something tells me the left can express themselves better than that.....
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/26/2008 11:18:29 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2713
Joined: 11/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
All I've got to say is Julius (saved9201) and Evangel70 - your posts are some of the best I've ever read on these forums. It's a pleasure reading them.
Peace and God bless,
Agreed. I enjoyed them as well. Nicely done, folks.
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/26/2008 11:19:25 AM
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Leslie_JnJs_mom
Posts: 929
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Something tells me that if the people who use these words to describe James Dobson heard people at their place of employment or church talking about them that way would not blow it off as disagreement.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
quote:
Disagreement with someone like Dobson doesn't mean hatred. I mean there is a difference.
Oh, so words like "nut" and other degrogatory terms found in these threads just mean "disagreement"?
Something tells me the left can express themselves better than that.....
_____________________________
<------- Jessica and I had so much fun with grandma!
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/26/2008 11:39:21 AM
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hnt
Posts: 527
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Leslie_JnJs_mom
Something tells me that if the people who use these words to describe James Dobson heard people at their place of employment or church talking about them that way would not blow it off as disagreement.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
quote:
Disagreement with someone like Dobson doesn't mean hatred. I mean there is a difference.
Oh, so words like "nut" and other degrogatory terms found in these threads just mean "disagreement"?
Something tells me the left can express themselves better than that.....
So if people don't properly display their opinions about a disagreement that means they hate?
_____________________________
h
Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/26/2008 12:27:07 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1817
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
Oh, so words like "nut" and other degrogatory terms found in these threads just mean "disagreement"?
Something tells me the left can express themselves better than that.....
Well, perhaps we should be better at evidencing the fruit of the spirit, but I would point out that Dobson is often a very shrill voice in the world that claims to speak for Christ. In the past he has stated:
-Liberals despise this country and its freedoms. (http://mediamatters.org/items/200610180018)
-Homosexuals are intent on "destroying the institution of marriage". (I agree that marriage should be between a man and a woman; I disagree with his choice of words). (Daily Oklahoman, Oct. 23d, 2004)
-That Muslims hate Jews and want them eliminated (Sept. 18th, 2002- CNN's Larry King Live)
-That "the liberal press [always] produces a series of trumped-up polls indicating [conservative]issues were of no interest nationally" (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/06/28/dobson.gaymarriage/)
-That we live under "judicial tyranny" (Marriage Under Fire, 84-85)
In addition, he has invited people like Ann Coulter on Focus on the Family to promote her book (Godless: The Church of Liberalism), where the two called experienced biologists and natural historians biased and incompetent for about half an hour, as well as denouncing various liberal practices.
So perhaps a kinder but fair way of discussing Dobson is that:
-He is one of the shrillest Christian voices on the radio who discusses politics.
-He blows issues totally out of context and distorts things.
-He makes very unusual and odd claims about Liberals, Libertarians, and even Republicans that he often doesn't back up with facts.
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/26/2008 12:31:42 PM
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HisLamb26
Posts: 363
Joined: 4/17/2005
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And you forgot:
He and the movement he speaks for are pretty much washed up as a political force in America.
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/26/2008 12:37:15 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1817
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisLamb26
And you forgot:
He and the movement he speaks for are pretty much washed up as a political force in America.
You're right. I don't want to kick him while he's down, although I will add that if history is any indication, he will likely make a comeback in a few years.
It is my sincere hope that he goes back to doing what he does best- counseling Christian parents on how to have a healthy relationship and raise their kids. I think 95% of the advice he gives is very healthy, and the other 5% is generally taken out of context to make him look like a 17th century Puritan by the media (which is always looking for a story from either the Right-wing or Left-wing).
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/26/2008 12:52:29 PM
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csl7037
Posts: 1366
Joined: 3/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
We don't advocate a theocracy in the US, but the Church of the Un-Godly Secular Humanists advocate the elimination of Christianity from politics and everything else.
-Dave
Can you blame them? A scriptural argument is pure nonsense to an unbeliever. In the eyes of the Left (and most people in the middle) the Christian Right has been talking nonsense for decades. We do this to ourselves and Obama makes a great point (and I can't believe I just said that!). If we can coherantly make an argument against abortion that makes sense to unbelievers but just try to peddle political power and basically blackmail politicians with whipped up glossy-eyed religious fanaticism, we marginalize ourselves. Granted this is what is done on both sides but is it any wonder we're at the impass we are at? And moral issues are not political issues - they're issues of the heart. We can and should be involved in the process. But if we want things to truly change, it's going to take changing the hearts of the people in this country. As Christians, we really should know better. If we'd rather rely on our own political prowess and our collective "flesh" to bring about a change in people's hearts instead of humbling ourselves before the Lord and lifting up our nation, we're truly no better than those who would impose Sharia law on the rest of the world given the chance. And our efforts are just as misguided. That will only drive hearts further the other direction.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
And secular arguments aren't 'superior' to religious ones - indeed; in many cases they are horribly inferior. There is no secular argument for example demonstrating that people are endowed with certain inalienable rights. Had those writing the Declaration relied on 'secular' arguments, they could never have proffered such a notion. And while some might argue the writers of the Declaration were 'Deists', the point is that they still weren't secularists, and they made a religious argument.
So our country is derived from certain religiously inspired arguments, and Obama is ignorant for not realizing this, and Dobson is right for catching him on it.
That being said, there is no reason for a Christian not to make a non-religious argument if such a thing will convince sufficient numbers of people to support certain positions - there of course exist such arguments against abortion and homosexual marriage, and Christians should know how to employ them or forever be stuck in the political backwaters.
You truly could make logical, practical arguments for "inalienable rights" and the foundations of this country. And, in the religious understanding (very much influenced by Deism & Reason) at the time of the writing of the Constitution, the prevailing religious argument would actually not necessarily have coincided with what they wrote. They were much more inspired by the abuses of the Crown than by the Bible, IMO.
But you make an excellent point and you make it well to what I said above - we've relegated ourselves to the "political backwaters" and Dobson is largely to blame for the current mess.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/26/2008 1:21:14 PM
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HisLamb26
Posts: 363
Joined: 4/17/2005
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quote:
You're right. I don't want to kick him while he's down, although I will add that if history is any indication, he will likely make a comeback in a few years.
Maybe-but I wouldn't hold my breathe. I have sensed for a long time, and now see it coming to pass, that the decades of political clout once held by the Christian right is in serious decline. That's why IMO Dobson et al, at least politically, are looking much like Don Quixote yelling at those windmills these days.
quote:
t is my sincere hope that he goes back to doing what he does best- counseling Christian parents on how to have a healthy relationship and raise their kids. I think 95% of the advice he gives is very healthy, and the other 5% is generally taken out of context to make him look like a 17th century Puritan by the media (which is always looking for a story from either the Right-wing or Left-wing).
I have only read one of his books re. parenting, and it was many moons ago-so I can't speak to his marital/parenting advice as far as being good or bad-but I agree that perhaps as the political power once held by his and similar organizations dissipates, they will find meaning in continuing to advice/counsel Christian families.
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/26/2008 1:31:29 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 1356
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: The North Woods
Status: offline
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quote:
Oh, so words like "nut" and other degrogatory terms found in these threads just mean "disagreement"? Something tells me the left can express themselves better than that.....
Tafkam - If there were a zoo with examples of classic political ideologues in them, you'd be a perfect candidate for the pen marked "Kneejerk Right-Wing Conservative" vis-a-vis your apparent belief that anyone who disagrees with your politics must be a gutter snipe lefty.
American politics, as a whole, is a very broad spectrum.
Only zealots (left or right) maintain their own politics along staunch ideological lines with no exceptions for a middle ground or the other side of the political ballyard (i.e. "Law & Order" Republicans like Tom Ridge and Rudy Guliani being pro-choice on abortion rights).
Oh, and for the record: Dobson is indeed a nutbag.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/26/2008 1:51:06 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 856
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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Abortion is the taking of an innocent life, MURDER, if you will. Murder is against the law in EVERY state. Why can you not correlate the two? Is it merely that it's a "convenient" form of "oops birth control?" It's the "I just wanna have fun without any responsibility attitude that has this world so rapt that it refuses to see issues as they really are. I repeat - abortion is the taking of an innocent life, which is murder. Murder is forbidden in The Ten Commandments (not the Ten Suggestions For How We Might All Get Along Better). Murder is against secular law. All the United States have outlawed murder. Is that so hard to understand? Apparently so to so many of you.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
We don't advocate a theocracy in the US, but the Church of the Un-Godly Secular Humanists advocate the elimination of Christianity from politics and everything else.
-Dave
Can you blame them? A scriptural argument is pure nonsense to an unbeliever. In the eyes of the Left (and most people in the middle) the Christian Right has been talking nonsense for decades. We do this to ourselves and Obama makes a great point (and I can't believe I just said that!). If we can coherantly make an argument against abortion that makes sense to unbelievers but just try to peddle political power and basically blackmail politicians with whipped up glossy-eyed religious fanaticism, we marginalize ourselves. Granted this is what is done on both sides but is it any wonder we're at the impass we are at? And moral issues are not political issues - they're issues of the heart. We can and should be involved in the process. But if we want things to truly change, it's going to take changing the hearts of the people in this country. As Christians, we really should know better. If we'd rather rely on our own political prowess and our collective "flesh" to bring about a change in people's hearts instead of humbling ourselves before the Lord and lifting up our nation, we're truly no better than those who would impose Sharia law on the rest of the world given the chance. And our efforts are just as misguided. That will only drive hearts further the other direction.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/26/2008 2:35:27 PM
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csl7037
Posts: 1366
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
Oh, so words like "nut" and other degrogatory terms found in these threads just mean "disagreement"?
Something tells me the left can express themselves better than that.....
Well, perhaps we should be better at evidencing the fruit of the spirit, but I would point out that Dobson is often a very shrill voice in the world that claims to speak for Christ. In the past he has stated:
-Liberals despise this country and its freedoms. (http://mediamatters.org/items/200610180018)
-Homosexuals are intent on "destroying the institution of marriage". (I agree that marriage should be between a man and a woman; I disagree with his choice of words). (Daily Oklahoman, Oct. 23d, 2004)
-That Muslims hate Jews and want them eliminated (Sept. 18th, 2002- CNN's Larry King Live)
-That "the liberal press [always] produces a series of trumped-up polls indicating [conservative]issues were of no interest nationally" (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/06/28/dobson.gaymarriage/)
-That we live under "judicial tyranny" (Marriage Under Fire, 84-85)
In addition, he has invited people like Ann Coulter on Focus on the Family to promote her book (Godless: The Church of Liberalism), where the two called experienced biologists and natural historians biased and incompetent for about half an hour, as well as denouncing various liberal practices.
So perhaps a kinder but fair way of discussing Dobson is that:
-He is one of the shrillest Christian voices on the radio who discusses politics.
-He blows issues totally out of context and distorts things.
-He makes very unusual and odd claims about Liberals, Libertarians, and even Republicans that he often doesn't back up with facts.
...and it's not just the "left" that would agree with this. How do you like the word "counterproductive" - is that too "derogatory" for you? That's how I'd describe James Dobson and so many other leaders of the "Religious Right" which, as conservative as I am, I cringe to be linked to.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/26/2008 2:38:58 PM
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csl7037
Posts: 1366
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
Abortion is the taking of an innocent life, MURDER, if you will. Murder is against the law in EVERY state. Why can you not correlate the two? Is it merely that it's a "convenient" form of "oops birth control?" It's the "I just wanna have fun without any responsibility attitude that has this world so rapt that it refuses to see issues as they really are. I repeat - abortion is the taking of an innocent life, which is murder. Murder is forbidden in The Ten Commandments (not the Ten Suggestions For How We Might All Get Along Better). Murder is against secular law. All the United States have outlawed murder. Is that so hard to understand? Apparently so to so many of you.
-Dave
I think virtually everyone here understands that all too well. What so many fail to understand is that screaming "MURDERER!" at these people is not making the point and it's all to reminiscent of the nutjobs that went around bombing abortion clinics in the not too distant past. We can't act like nutballs if we don't want to be associated with nutballs.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/26/2008 2:42:16 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5245
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
In a nutshell, I think Obama is dead-on here. No one religious faith or philosophy should corner the market as the moral or political authority on any issue - for example, evangelical Christians being the last (and loudest) word on abortion rights when not every American is a Christian, much less evangelical.
Laying the evangelical position aside. The Obama position; to force a baby into a breach birth, then before the head is completely passed through the cervox to drive a hole into the base of the skull of the living kincking baby, suck the brains out, and collapse the head? And to call that okey dokey and anything else that violent murder?
That goes way beyond any sensibility.
If its such a rightious thing then maybe Obama's mom should have considered the proceedure.
Thanks
RC
< Message edited by rcjames -- 6/26/2008 2:49:24 PM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/26/2008 2:45:49 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2713
Joined: 11/16/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
Abortion is the taking of an innocent life, MURDER, if you will. Murder is against the law in EVERY state. Why can you not correlate the two? Is it merely that it's a "convenient" form of "oops birth control?" It's the "I just wanna have fun without any responsibility attitude that has this world so rapt that it refuses to see issues as they really are. I repeat - abortion is the taking of an innocent life, which is murder. Murder is forbidden in The Ten Commandments (not the Ten Suggestions For How We Might All Get Along Better). Murder is against secular law. All the United States have outlawed murder. Is that so hard to understand? Apparently so to so many of you.
-Dave
I think virtually everyone here understands that all too well. What so many fail to understand is that screaming "MURDERER!" at these people is not making the point and it's all to reminiscent of the nutjobs that went around bombing abortion clinics in the not too distant past. We can't act like nutballs if we don't want to be associated with nutballs.
Which, to bring it all the way back to the OP, is the point that Mr. Dobson misses in Obama's speech. In his speech, he says right up front that it's ok to take a position based on your faith. But, he continues, you need to express that opinion in a way that is convincing to a person of a different (or no) faith if you wish to be effective. It's not heresy - it's just being practical. If the rest of the world just doesn't think of it as murder, regardless of how preposterous that may seem to you, dancing up and down on the "murder soapbox" isn't a productive activity unless you're just out to get some good exercise.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/26/2008 2:47:29 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2713
Joined: 11/16/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
If its such a rightious thing then maybe Obama's mom should have considered the proceedure.
Thanks
RC
I hope I'm not the only one that considers this offensive. I don't think comments like this reflect well on Christians, regardless of what we believe about Mr. Obama.
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/26/2008 2:59:51 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 2232
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Tafkam - If there were a zoo with examples of classic political ideologues in them, you'd be a perfect candidate for the pen marked "Kneejerk Right-Wing Conservative" vis-a-vis your apparent belief that anyone who disagrees with your politics must be a gutter snipe lefty
Need I remind you that personal attacks are a TOS violation?
And no, it's not a matter of agreeing with MY politics, but rather the agreeing with issues that are bad for America....
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/26/2008 3:01:32 PM
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Leslie_JnJs_mom
Posts: 929
Joined: 9/6/2007
Status: offline
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Call me crazy but isn't that what he does? I have heard him a couple of times on Sean Hannity but his main thing is parenting, unless he did a major change lately.
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisLamb26
And you forgot:
He and the movement he speaks for are pretty much washed up as a political force in America.
You're right. I don't want to kick him while he's down, although I will add that if history is any indication, he will likely make a comeback in a few years.
It is my sincere hope that he goes back to doing what he does best- counseling Christian parents on how to have a healthy relationship and raise their kids. I think 95% of the advice he gives is very healthy, and the other 5% is generally taken out of context to make him look like a 17th century Puritan by the media (which is always looking for a story from either the Right-wing or Left-wing).
_____________________________
<------- Jessica and I had so much fun with grandma!
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/26/2008 3:06:29 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2713
Joined: 11/16/2007
Status: offline
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At this point, his ministry is composed of nearly equal parts - political advocacy and family issues. He's most well known within Christian circles for his parenting roles, but I suspect outside that circle he's known most recently for his political activism.
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/26/2008 3:18:32 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 1356
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: The North Woods
Status: offline
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quote:
And no, it's not a matter of agreeing with MY politics, but rather the agreeing with issues that are bad for America....
Yes, issues that are bad according to you...
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/26/2008 3:23:26 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 2232
Joined: 9/23/2005
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Yeah, you'll have to forgive me if I take issue with Presidential candidates who wish to legitimize perversion, endorse the ripping of children from their mother's wombs, and advocation of unconditional surrender to our enemies.
Meanwhile I come to a Christian forum and see people bashing a man who stands up in defense of the traditional family and the values it represents.
All that's missing is the TWILIGHT ZONE theme.......
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/26/2008 3:25:43 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2713
Joined: 11/16/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
Yeah, you'll have to forgive me if I take issue with Presidential candidates who wish to legitimize perversion, endorse the ripping of children from their mother's wombs, and advocation of unconditional surrender to our enemies.
Meanwhile I come to a Christian forum and see people bashing a man who stands up in defense of the traditional family and the values it represents.
All that's missing is the TWILIGHT ZONE theme.......
Neither man is perfect - both are in the public spotlight and fair game for criticism. It's good fodder for discussion, and we can all learn a bit from it.
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