Curious ? (Full Version)

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mikejonesoftn -> Curious ? (6/20/2008 6:07:23 PM)

I know the answer for this will most likely be "the prophecy will be fulfilled in the second coming" but I wanted to ask anyway to see what others think.

Well, in the bible seems like God was more "hands-on" with people back than, from reading the bible you couldn't blame one for believing that God was more close to those in the bible than any of us that lives today. Any one ever wonder if any one in the world is having those type of hand on conversations with God, not to say he doesn't talk to any of us, because God does work in mysterious ways. Ever wondered if anyone was writing more books? I know that the Lord said what has been written is final, but I just can't help but to wonder.



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Curious ? (6/20/2008 7:40:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikejonesoftn

Well, in the bible seems like God was more "hands-on" with people back than, from reading the bible you couldn't blame one for believing that God was more close to those in the bible than any of us that lives today. Any one ever wonder if any one in the world is having those type of hand on conversations with God, not to say he doesn't talk to any of us, because God does work in mysterious ways. Ever wondered if anyone was writing more books? I know that the Lord said what has been written is final, but I just can't help but to wonder.


I do so understand what you are saying. Sometimes I just want to physically touch Jesus or literally see His beautiful face.

But Jesus said it is actually better that He leave this earth so that the Holy Spirit could come because He would live inside us.

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
John 16:7


And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14: 16-17


Also, many of us do "hear" God talking to us and we talk with Him....It took me many years of being a Christian before I learned to recognize His voice....

Yes, the Cannon of Scripture is complete but some of us write and teach from God teaching us through Scripture, myself included...



Liveloved -> RE: Curious ? (6/20/2008 7:44:20 PM)

If what you are asking is is God still speaking, the answer is most definitely yes. But our world is so busy and noisy that there is alot of distraction, even in the church, that keeps us from hearing God.

God does speak. And He speaks to me. He longs for people to listen. I want to listen. I want to hear what He is saying to me.



ChristopherJ -> RE: Curious ? (6/20/2008 11:45:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikejonesoftn

I know the answer for this will most likely be "the prophecy will be fulfilled in the second coming" but I wanted to ask anyway to see what others think.

Well, in the bible seems like God was more "hands-on" with people back than, from reading the bible you couldn't blame one for believing that God was more close to those in the bible than any of us that lives today. Any one ever wonder if any one in the world is having those type of hand on conversations with God, not to say he doesn't talk to any of us, because God does work in mysterious ways. Ever wondered if anyone was writing more books? I know that the Lord said what has been written is final, but I just can't help but to wonder.


Mike,
This is one of the problems I have with SOME of the traditional mainline denominations that teach that God is silent and inactive. Throughout ALL of history - from the beginning of creation to the time of the early church in the first century in Acts - God has been a God who speaks and interacts with mankind. The idea that God no longer speaks or transforms lives today or heals is ridiculous. However, on the topic of whether or not there are any more books of the Bible - I believe that the canon of Scripture is closed - that is to say that the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments are the complete revelation of God to His people. And even though I believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit (that include God revealing Himself through prophecy, words of wisdom and knowledge, etc), I believe that those gifts are always subject to and must line up with the written word of God. God's Spirit will never say anything that contradicts what is written in the Bible. I encourage you to seek God and chase after Him to have a personal and intimate relationship with Him, because He longs for the same thing with you (see Revelation 3:20).

Also, if you want to learn more about the reality of God's speaking, healing, changing lives today, I encourage you to take a listen to some of my audio sermons &/or to read through some of my recent preaching notes on the topic. Click here: http://www.beausejourchurch.ca/ and check out "online sermons" and "notes and articles".

Here are some of the messages you will find there:
June 19: Revival #5: Supernatural Ministry Training: Extreme Prophetic (Rev. 4:1; Joel 2:28)
June 12: Revival #4: Supernatural Ministry Training: Doing the Stuff (John 14:12)
June 8: Revival #3: Returning to Our First Love (Revelation 3:14-22)
June 5: Healing School #2: 15 Reasons People Don't Get Healed (Romans 10:17)
June 1: Healing School #1: Signs and Wonders Today (Heb. 13:8)
May 25: Revival #2: The Fullness of the Spirit (John 16:7)
May 18: Revival #1: The Need for Revival - Hunger (Hag. 2:9)



mvic -> RE: Curious ? (6/22/2008 8:23:01 AM)

Gos is still "hands on" and does talk to some people today. Maybe not as reported in the Old Testament but He does talk to people for certain. In more ways than we could imagine.

As for God writing books - here too the answer is Yes. Although the official books of the Bible have been recognised as the ones we already know; in my view, there are other books and writings written in our times right now which are inspired by God. By that I mean they are the direct results of what God told the contemporary writer of today to write.



Jet_A_Jockey -> RE: Curious ? (6/22/2008 12:02:06 PM)

I believe God still leads us (through the Spirit) in our day to day. I believe God's direct interaction with many biblical figures was due to the fact that there was no bible to learn of Him (in regards to His intentions for us). That is coupled with most of the OT books being written by/about His prophets.

I believe Jesus was the last prophet (and greatest, of course). However, this does not negate that God still personally interacts, gives visions and dreams, and works through His followers. I just don't think He has any more "prophets", as in those whose sole purpose is to communicate His direct will(extra-biblical). We have scripture to know His will, and in that regard I believe it is complete.



GraceBro -> RE: Curious ? (6/22/2008 11:26:51 PM)

quote:

Well, in the bible seems like God was more "hands-on" with people back than, from reading the bible you couldn't blame one for believing that God was more close to those in the bible than any of us that lives today.


God can't be any more "hands-on" or any more "close" to believers than He is today. He indwells us. The very life of God, lost in Adam, is within every believer. We have something now that is better than anybody, including Adam and Eve, had prior to Christ's resurrection.

"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe." Hebrews 1: 1-2

I can't say that God is not interacting in people's lives in similar ways like He did in past. However, if it were common, it would cease to be miraculous. With that said, there is no greater miracle than that of new birth. Because of us being born-again we not only have the life of God indwelling us, but also have unhindered access to God (Hebrews 4:16). Perhaps, if we are expecting things from God, that we witnessed in the Old Testament, to take place in our lives today, it is an indication that we don't have a proper understanding of what we have in Christ. Do we not have every spiritual blessing in heavenly places (Ephesians 1:3) and have been given everything we need for life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3)? It is very possible that Christians desiring more of a "physical" experience from God are expecting something from Him He didn't come to give. The instances recorded in the Old Testament were just for those particular individuals, and events, mentioned. It doesn't mean that it was a constant 24/7 interaction with God by everybody at all times. And, it was also temporary. God didn't, and couldn't, indwell people then like He does now because our sin had not been dealt with yet.

Salvation is the restoration of the life of God to all who accept Christ by faith (Romans 5:8-10). It is a life that will never leave a believer because of the eternal consequences of the Cross. A life that will carry us the rest of our physical lives and on into eternity. God desired to, once again, have a relationship with mankind, as He did in the Garden of Eden. He now has that opportunity because of the finished work of Christ. He is the life of every believer (Galatians 2:20). Whereever you are He is. He can't be any closer, or hands-on, than He is now.

We see many instances in the Old Testament where God revealed Himself, but yet people still didn't believe. Similarly, in the Gospels, we have people who saw and spoke to God, in Christ, witnessed His miracles, saw His death, burial and resurrection and still didn't believe in Him. Peter denied Him. Thomas doubted His resurrection. The disciples scattered. There is no guarantee that having an actual, physical, encounter with God is going to add anything to your faith. And if you believe it will, perhaps, you should examine exactly what it is you are believing about God. I don't say this to condemn anybody, but to spur you on to a greater exploration as to what it is you already have in Christ.

Grace and Peace



hellohellohi -> RE: Curious ? (7/1/2008 11:10:02 AM)

Would anyone agree with the idea that the Trinity represents a three-part history of God -- his stages in his presentation of Himself to man?

Stage 1) The father -- OT

2) Father sends the Son.

3) Son sends the Spirit.

??

This could explain how different contemporary relationships with God look compared to ancient.



figmentPez -> RE: Curious ? (7/1/2008 4:07:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hellohellohi

Would anyone agree with the idea that the Trinity represents a three-part history of God -- his stages in his presentation of Himself to man?

Stage 1) The father -- OT

2) Father sends the Son.

3) Son sends the Spirit.

??

This could explain how different contemporary relationships with God look compared to ancient.


No, I most certainly would not agree, because that isn't trinitarian doctrine. God has eternally existed as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Before anything was created, before there were men for God to present Himself to, God was Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Before there was a world for the Father to send His Son out into, the Son was already the son of the Father. There has never been a time when God wasn't Father, Son and Holy Spirit.



hellohellohi -> RE: Curious ? (7/2/2008 11:20:58 AM)

quote:

because that isn't trinitarian doctrine


thanks for the response.

is there any other reason you might believe this as well?

But I think, for myself, I like this line of thinking not because I want to say that God has changed or was ever other than His three part self, but because it APPEARS to me that the way God interacts with people has changed -- not because He has changed, but rather because it is part of his plan. I say He has a TIMELESS plan to get us to eternity, but it involves seasons, changes, and historical stages.

I am not advocating a doctrine, though, per se, I am just interested in what people have to say about this. I think I will probably go on believing it in some sense regradless though.



figmentPez -> RE: Curious ? (7/2/2008 6:29:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hellohellohi

quote:

because that isn't trinitarian doctrine


thanks for the response.

is there any other reason you might believe this as well?


Because trinitarian doctrine is what scripture teaches. It is contrary to scripture to say that God changed, that the Son did not exist from the beginnning, that the Son did not relate to humanity before he was incarnate, etc. In no way does scripture teach that the New Covenant seems different than the old because we are no longer relating to the Father.

quote:

But I think, for myself, I like this line of thinking not because I want to say that God has changed or was ever other than His three part self, but because it APPEARS to me that the way God interacts with people has changed -- not because He has changed, but rather because it is part of his plan. I say He has a TIMELESS plan to get us to eternity, but it involves seasons, changes, and historical stages.

I am not advocating a doctrine, though, per se, I am just interested in what people have to say about this. I think I will probably go on believing it in some sense regradless though.


Appearances can be deceptive. There are some changes that have been made in the way God relates to humanity, because we are in the New Covenant versus under the Mosaic Law, however, those changes are not because God was Father in the OT, Son during the incarnation and is now Holy Spirit. The changes are not directly connected to God's triune nature, and that is my problem with what you put forth in post #8.



hellohellohi -> RE: Curious ? (7/2/2008 11:13:55 PM)

fair enough. i don't think it would be right to say that God's nature has changed -- yes, ergo, He is triune. I think that is trinitarian doctrine -- implicit but not explicit in scripture, though.

I think it is interesting to consider, however, that His present mode of interaction could be described as the Holy Spirit mode. That was the novel idea I wanted to put out there though. Not that He has actually changed -- thanks for the correction though. Y'know, Jesus is not walking earth. The Father does seem to correspond with the more authoritarian covenant of the OT, and the Holy Spirit seems to correspond to the more understated and interior way of God's working -- well, at least as far as I can see. The Holy Spirit seems to be the culmination of the story of God's relation to us. -- for instance, when Jesus says it is good that I am going because unless I do, I would not be able to send the Comforter or teh Advocate or however He refers to Him. If the Father is the Law, Jesus is the judge, then the Advocate is obviously our defense attorney type guy. It's interesting that the elements for a courtroom scene -- perhaps involving a confession -- have been set, though in the historically staged or gradual way.

I am not trying to say anything about the "being" of God per se, though.



figmentPez -> RE: Curious ? (7/10/2008 2:50:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hellohellohi

fair enough. i don't think it would be right to say that God's nature has changed -- yes, ergo, He is triune. I think that is trinitarian doctrine -- implicit but not explicit in scripture, though.

I think it is interesting to consider, however, that His present mode of interaction could be described as the Holy Spirit mode. That was the novel idea I wanted to put out there though. Not that He has actually changed -- thanks for the correction though. Y'know, Jesus is not walking earth. The Father does seem to correspond with the more authoritarian covenant of the OT, and the Holy Spirit seems to correspond to the more understated and interior way of God's working -- well, at least as far as I can see. The Holy Spirit seems to be the culmination of the story of God's relation to us. -- for instance, when Jesus says it is good that I am going because unless I do, I would not be able to send the Comforter or teh Advocate or however He refers to Him. If the Father is the Law, Jesus is the judge, then the Advocate is obviously our defense attorney type guy. It's interesting that the elements for a courtroom scene -- perhaps involving a confession -- have been set, though in the historically staged or gradual way.

I am not trying to say anything about the "being" of God per se, though.


Please pardon the lateness of my reply.

First, although there are portions of trinitarian doctrine that are only implicit in scripture, there is a great deal about the nature of God that is explicit in scripture, and many of your statements are contrary to those explicit statements.

God's interaction with humanity at present would most certainly not be described as "Holy Spirit mode", because the Father and the Son still directly interact with humanity. It is possible to have a relationship with all three persons of the triune God.

I know that Jesus Christ is not walking the earth anymore, but I also know that He was the Son before there was an earth to walk, and He remains even now, and still loves and interacts with humanity.

Also, if your understanding of the Father is solely that of an authoritarian who corresponds solely to the Law and the OT, then you don't know enough about the Father, and you need to study scripture more. The Father loves just as much as the Son and the Holy Spirit do. Furthermore, you've assigned the Holy Spirit as the role of advocate, but 1John 2:1 says that we have Jesus Christ as our advocate. (The same word, Parakletos, that is used of the Holy Spirit as Helper.)



hellohellohi -> RE: Curious ? (7/11/2008 10:01:38 AM)

quote:

but 1John 2:1 says that we have Jesus Christ as our advocate. (The same word, Parakletos, that is used of the Holy Spirit as Helper.)


Didn't know that verse. As for the rest, I don't have any reason to doubt what you are saying. Also, I agree with it. I was raising a possibility, but I wasn't very sure I believed in it. Still intrigued by it though. I would appreciate further scripture relevant to this, if you have any ready. If not, I hope I will find answers in scripture as well.

Yeah, I don't want to say the Father is authoritarian. And, yes, I don't want to say that Jesus lived and died and now he is merely in the past! However, I am intrigued by the statement of Jesus that it was better for him to go so that he could send the Advocate. The Holy Spirit, I wonder, refers back to Jesus who obviously emphasized that he referred to the Father rather than to himself, even God as he was, he could not refer to his mortal form, but to Father in heaven. I wonder if the times like that of Moses, where the Father spoke directly to him, have given way to the story of God come to earth, and then departing in order to send the One who could help our hearts to accept Jesus and therefore his father. I wonder if this is either a realistic view, a Biblical, both, or neither.



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