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RE: Worship Wars - 7/1/2008 10:28:31 AM
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SonInMe1
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I think overheads replaced hymnals because...its cheaper to purchase one overhead than a couple hundred hymnals.
Of course these things progress and now we have huge screens, producing not just musical verses but scripture, videos and announcements.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Worship Wars - 7/1/2008 11:19:59 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Indeed. Over the years, it was first the music minister calling, in frustration, for people to "Put your hymnals aside! You know this song! Look up! Let's sing together!"
Then the overhead was born, and churches began to snatch them up for teachings. "Pastor, I have a new chorus I want to introduce to the congregation. Would you mind if I just type it out on one of those plastic thingies and use the overhead?"
Then they got to thinking about their 452-hymn hymnals, from which they sang 97 hymns, and the wheels really began to spin.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Worship Wars - 7/1/2008 11:31:15 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Because of the loss of the use of the hymnal, there is also an educational loss to the children in the congregations. Many of us fine-tuned our reading skills in those hymnals and began to ask questions about music and how the little dots on lines represented different sounds and timing. How come this one has a tiny flag? What does that big backwards C mean? What's that fancy ampersand for?
Further, we fine-tuned our senses of humor during the sermons. Now, that's a loss! We could look in the back of the hymnal and put hymn titles together to make humorous statements, or we could simply read the titles and add "under the cover." (Where did we all get that? We had no clue what that was about, yet it was funny!) And having to "hold it" through the whole service, we took note of the great hymn writer, P. P. Bliss.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Worship Wars - 7/1/2008 3:59:44 PM
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jbird56
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
quote:
...why is our "worship" about our own tastes in the first place? Are we going to services in order to satisfy ourselves or to worship?
I agree with this completely. Even within my own Lutheran denomination, I have seen changes that have made me sadly leave one church for another. It seems to be a scary, but more increasingly commplace occurrence, to find pastors who change the Word of God to suit the lifestyles of the people. We should be changing our lifestyles to suit the Word of the Lord. We are supposedly going to church to worship the Lord, not to just get our "feel-good fix" for the week. I love ministers who truly preach the Word of God and expect us to live according to the Word if we do, indeed, believe in Jesus. But these days, people seem to not want to make sacrifices, to not want to give up sinning. They want their cake and eat it too. They believe they are saved, but really are not. It takes a strong pastor to stand up for Jesus, to hold us accountable for the choices we make in our lives.
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RE: Worship Wars - 7/3/2008 7:22:14 AM
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LawrenceJCaldwell
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There are a lot of unfortunate myths surrounding worship. Sadly, I suspect this string questions worship in that strain (worship = music). Therefore, I will provide a portion of a chapter from my new book Christian Mythology that discusses this issue.
Perhaps this myth caused you to think of a preconceived notion about music preference in the church. The battle lines are drawn between “contemporary Christian” music and the hymns. While that may indeed be the debate, and may be the line on which many pastors try to compromise, and may be what all these folks consider to be the root issue, it is not. Read the myth again – Worship music is a matter of personal preference. No it is not. It is solely a matter of God’s precepts. There is just as much wrong in contemporary Christian music as there is in the hymns.
Music that is pleasing to God fits the precepts given in His Word. It is God-centered. It is not man-centered. For example, the words “I, me, my” should appear very seldom, no matter how good it may sound to say things like “I come to worship”, “my heart”, “He gave me” and so on. My goal is not to point out which songs are good and which are bad. You will know the difference when your heart is right with God. For only the righteous can sing in worship to the LORD.
“Rejoice in the LORD, O ye righteous: for praise is comely for the upright. Praise the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings. Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise. For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth. He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.” Psalm 33:1-5
“I am the LORD; that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth,….” Isaiah 42: 8, 10a
What could possibly be wrong in the hymns you ask? Here’s the short list: wrong doctrine. There are words in many popular hymns that do not line up with Scripture. This is a serious problem for at least two reasons. One, it gives the simple wrong theology, and two, it adds to or takes away from God’s holy Word. That alone reaps serious repercussions.
Proverbs 30:6 - Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Revelation 22:19 - And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
So where do we find good music that is pleasing to God? God gave us at least 150 in the book of Psalms. There are churches today who take the literal text of these Psalms and apply music to them. While that may be a difficult task because the words, translated from Hebrew, no longer match what we consider the rules of good lyrics to music (e.g. - the last word of each line doesn’t rhyme, the meter of the verses doesn’t match) it is still a noteworthy effort. We might even be surprised to find out that our Jewish friends already have the ancient music to some of these texts.
We will always have with us the perpetuating myth of preference until we realize that music is entirely of Him, and through Him, and to Him. We will always have the argument over heresy concerning the latest musical instrument (instruments of the devil we say!) and the latest musical style (Christian rock, Christian rap) until we realize that God alone receives the glory from music.
_____________________________
Lawrence J. Caldwell
Author & Speaker
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RE: Worship Wars - 7/3/2008 10:22:04 AM
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ta_mosquito
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quote:
What could possibly be wrong in the hymns you ask? Here’s the short list: wrong doctrine. There are words in many popular hymns that do not line up with Scripture.
There was once a thread in the Music folder that posited this. People gave examples, but upon further inspection, the examples ended up being biblical.
If you'd like to discuss it further, I suggest starting another thread to examine the issue.
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Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Worship Wars - 7/3/2008 12:15:20 PM
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taffylynn
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I think that most churches have some trouble when worship leaders jump right into the change in the music, drums, keys, guitars and all of that. Just like drawing a line and wanting to ditch the hymns and become upbeat all of a sudden. We, at our church, which is a semi-country-type church, do a blended type worship. That way the young and the old are happy. When I brought in the keyboard and started changing over gradually I really didn't get anyone against it, and I was quite surprised. They rather enjoyed it. They now clap, sing to their heart's content and love it. Especially on "Days of Elijah", "Every Move I Make" and there are others. We now have drums, guitars and keys and the odd tambourine. We don't have two services, only the one on Sunday morning.
I really think it is the way that you go about it.
I know of another bigger church that the older people just about walked out of the church services until somebody tried to set them straight and it took a long time. Some of them left and went to another church. I think that there maybe be two services at that church now.
It just seems really foolish and immature that people want their own way all of the time and they want what they want and to do it their way. We can also be overbearing at the same time and we need to be sensitive also.
I hope that this helps.
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RE: Worship Wars - 7/3/2008 1:35:16 PM
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DaveW
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Making sudden changes can throw many for a loop. You really need to see where the congregation is at and tailor the styles to them. As worship leaders we have the responsibility to bring the WHOLE congregation before the throne. To alienate a sizable portion because of music styles seems counter productive.
The church back in MI where I was leader had a sizable group of my parents' generation so one sunday I introduced a song that hearkened back to a big band sound. They LOVED it.
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RE: Worship Wars - 7/4/2008 10:57:43 AM
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LawrenceJCaldwell
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Where in the devil did this position of "worship leader" come from? This is another myth that the Christian church is telling itself and the world. Worship can only be a singular activity transacted between righteous individuals and God. We are told to worship in the beauty of holiness.
Think about it for just a moment. We know in these last days that the kingdom of God (yes, our churches too) are filled with a mix of wheat and tares. There are unsaved sinners in our churches. How can they worship? They do not know God and He does not know them. So how can a "worship leader" do anything more than lead them in songs and prayers that are of none effect?
Jesus said we are to worship in spirit in truth. Sinners have none of that. The context of His statement was not relative to music. Music alone does NOT equal worship.
If you are of the "wheat" then you know the perversion and pervasion of these myths only serve to continue to make a mockery of God and a joke of the Body of Christ in the eyes of the world. Boldy speak the truth, purify your hearts, and be ready and waiting for the Bridegroom. He will only present to Himself a pure, spotless Bride.
_____________________________
Lawrence J. Caldwell
Author & Speaker
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RE: Worship Wars - 7/4/2008 4:12:11 PM
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daughter_of_faith
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Yeah, but how many of us actually WORSHIP God when we are "worshiping"? So many times people sing the songs or raise their hands just because it feels good...or because Suzy Q sitting in front of me is.....or because of whatever the reason. If the attitude of the heart isn't right, then it isn't really worship at all.
I know I've done this myself. Someone has told me that any music that uplifts God and brings honor and glory to Him is worship. What are your thoughts?
This same person says that you should be able to worship irregardless of the style of music, tempo, dynamics, etc. Thoughts?
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RE: Worship Wars - 7/6/2008 1:46:25 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lawrence
Music alone does NOT equal worship.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
We know that. I suppose we could title them "song leader" instead. It's semantics. 
Amein!
Lawrence, I get the impression, when reading your posts, that you may think those of us on CW to be really ignorant, but this is simply not the case. Most of us are well aware that true worship involves how we live our lives -- especially how we live them outside the walls of buildings where our congregations meet.
quote:
ORIGINAL: daughter_of_faith
Yeah, but how many of us actually WORSHIP God when we are "worshiping"? So many times people sing the songs or raise their hands just because it feels good...or because Suzy Q sitting in front of me is.....or because of whatever the reason. If the attitude of the heart isn't right, then it isn't really worship at all.
Someone has told me that any music that uplifts God and brings honor and glory to Him is worship. What are your thoughts?
This same person says that you should be able to worship irregardless of the style of music, tempo, dynamics, etc. Thoughts?
I suppose this could happen, but fortunately, we don't have to decide whether or not someone else's worship is real; we only have to assess ourselves and whether or not our own worship is true.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Worship Wars - 7/6/2008 4:28:25 AM
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DSmitty
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Recently wrote something regarding the old question from unbelievers about all of the religions of the world, and this kind of made me think of that. Because what I've noticed is that people are very ego-centric when it comes to choosing a religion. People choose their religion based on something about themselves. Sometimes it's ethnicity, sometimes it's personal tastes and preferences. Since God has been around a lot longer than I have, it would be pretty foolish for me to assume that who and what He is revolves around who and what I am. He didn't suddenly put on the breaks the day that I showed up in the world and say, "Whoa! Hold everything! This changes everything!"
I think that the same is true when it comes to our attitudes about worship. Do we honestly think that God honors one style more than the other? We do, He doesn't. The songs that please God are songs that are sung from our hearts to Him... from a heart posture of adoration and self abandon - whether they're hymns or contemporary. He doesn't have a style preference, He has a heart condition preference. Man looks on the outward, but God looks on the heart.
I agree with those who have pointed out that music is just one vehicle for expressing worship to God. The music itself is not the worship itself.
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RE: Worship Wars - 7/6/2008 12:54:16 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Dave, I tried. It just keeps freezing my computer. Have any ideas?
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Worship Wars - 7/7/2008 12:38:29 AM
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gmc4Jesus
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To "worship" means to ascribe worth to.
We tie that into the singing part of the worship service, but the entire service should be an act of worship in the heart and soul of a mature believer. The singing, prayers, communion, giving and sermon are all intended to be acts of ascribing worth to God and Jesus Christ.
Unfortunately, some people treat worship as a performance in which they go to watch the worship team (music leaders) perform, listen to a sermon and then go away thinking they have done their "worship" duty for the week without seriously giving any thought to what Jesus did for them and what He means to them.
When we worship, God is the audience, you and I are the actors. When you worship, don't limit yourself to the singing, but also apply your worship of God and Jesus to your offering, praying silently during prayer times, taking communion and to listening to and applying the sermon to your life.
May God's love for you and Jesus' gift of salvation by dying on the cross for your sins lead you to such a devotion, love and worship that you will take it home with you and worship God 24/7/365!
_____________________________
Let's talk about Jesus, His life and teachings at the www.gettingtoknowjesus.org Gospel Study Forum.
Home of "Getting To Know Jesus", a complete Bible study on the life and teachings of Jesus.
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RE: Worship Wars - 7/7/2008 2:44:46 AM
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DSmitty
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmc4Jesus
To "worship" means to ascribe worth to.
We tie that into the singing part of the worship service, but the entire service should be an act of worship in the heart and soul of a mature believer. The singing, prayers, communion, giving and sermon are all intended to be acts of ascribing worth to God and Jesus Christ.
Unfortunately, some people treat worship as a performance in which they go to watch the worship team (music leaders) perform, listen to a sermon and then go away thinking they have done their "worship" duty for the week without seriously giving any thought to what Jesus did for them and what He means to them.
When we worship, God is the audience, you and I are the actors. When you worship, don't limit yourself to the singing, but also apply your worship of God and Jesus to your offering, praying silently during prayer times, taking communion and to listening to and applying the sermon to your life.
May God's love for you and Jesus' gift of salvation by dying on the cross for your sins lead you to such a devotion, love and worship that you will take it home with you and worship God 24/7/365!
Yeah, I agree with that. Paul talked about us each having something to share when we come together... a song, an exhortation, etc. Also in Hebrews we are exhorted not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together, and I think this speaks of community and fellowship. But what happens far too often I fear is that people come and observe and then go home and feel like they've done their religious duty without really having participated or related to their fellow believer at all. Not trying to put a bunch of emphasis on the negative; there is a positive in here. The positive is the real privilege that we all have to relate to Him very personally in the Spirit and in and with each other. He doesn't want us to miss out on that.
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RE: Worship Wars - 7/8/2008 4:17:22 AM
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SonInMe1
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Since the object of our worship is the same, why all this division about...the form of worship?
Pride. Comfort level. Tradition.
Seems trivial.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Worship Wars - 7/9/2008 9:24:32 AM
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LawrenceJCaldwell
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Covaan_Meshuga:
Ignorance is a strong word and is appropriate in this sense. It covers many issues. In the Old Testament, sins of ignorance are spoken of. In the New Testament, God says in Acts 3:17 and 17:30 that in our ignorance the Lord was crucified.
But further in Ephesians 4:18 we see another form of ignorance that is prevalent in the Kingdom, "Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:"
I do not know anyone personally in these forums. I can only go by what I read. And a lot that is written is opinion based on things like ignorance, myth, or unbelief. For instance, your statement that "those of us on CW to be really ignorant, but this is simply not the case. Most of us are well aware that true worship involves how we live our lives...." Really? How do you know?
Jesus says in John 5:30, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." Further in John 12:46-48 He says, "I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."
Therefore I/we have to be careful to abide in Jesus, His Word alone, and nothing else. The words we write in these forums are within the context of judgment according to Jesus in Matthew 12:36, "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." I dare not assume that everything written in these forums is accurate, correct, believed, practiced. I can only believe the True Word.
_____________________________
Lawrence J. Caldwell
Author & Speaker
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RE: Worship Wars - 7/10/2008 12:45:31 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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LawrenceJCaldwell
In "answer" to your paragraph three in post #73 above:
You have apparently been here for a few days. I have been here for far more years than the date on my poosts indicates.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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I suppose one could have a supplementary booklet that keeps changing, but I would think 3-ring binders would be a bit unwieldy for the congregation. 
