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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/1/2008 7:18:01 AM
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drnick
Posts: 152
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Shall we get back on topic?
In the UK 60 years ago it was effectively decided that Health was a human right. Therefore a system was needed to deliver that right.
In the US no such concept exists.
And you therefore have the situation where companies actively exclude people from cover because of their risk profile, and where up to 1/3 of the health expenditure is admin costs, including billing, which in naturally then included in the cost to the user.
And the health system is based around secondary care, and specialties, rather than primary care and prevention.
A sick person can have multiple different teams involved in their care, all separate with their own agendas, rathere than one person/team who truly knows what's going on.
But "socialised", like "liberal", has become such a dirty word that some folks immediately dismiss anything they percieve to carry that label without engaging brain.
Which is presumably why the US has come bottom of the league again when it comes to healthcare in developed nations.
_____________________________
Who needs new music. Everyone knows Rock attained perfection in 1974. -- Homer Simpson
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/1/2008 10:53:06 PM
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wing2000
Posts: 1029
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
That must been the reason the King of Jordon flew to the UK for treatement years ago...Oh wait, that's right he came to the United States...
Of course...our health care provides the best available---if you have a royal salary!
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/2/2008 1:34:23 AM
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Lizahana
Posts: 1072
Joined: 4/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
quote:
That must been the reason the King of Jordon flew to the UK for treatement years ago...Oh wait, that's right he came to the United States...
Of course...our health care provides the best available---if you have a royal salary!
Ha! LOL! That rocked!)
Peace and God bless,
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/2/2008 2:21:31 AM
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drnick
Posts: 152
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Of course...our health care provides the best available---if you have a royal salary!
How good the healthcare is has nothing to do with how good the best individual is - and I'd put any of my colleagues up against the best in the US any day.
It's to do with the overall structure in which they work.
And in fact, if you wanted to find the best docs, try Cuba.
quote:
Actually it's not a very good point... In a country founded on personal freedoms and reasonability, not the government being the provider of all things the idea of socialism is a dirty word... Of course since the person who posted doesn’t come from a country founded on personal freedoms and reasonability it's understandable...
What's being from Peru got to do with it?
In the US you chose the easy route: you decided comprehensive healthcare was too expensive. So around 1 in 7 aren't insured. Care is terribly fragmented. There is no rational structure. Your healthcare is supply-driven, and there is no relation between supply and use, and quality and outcomes.
Oops.
You have loads of hospitals, but coordinated care, home health care, hospice services, community services and mental health, public health and prevention are left out - there's no money in them.
Your admin costs are at least 3 times that in the UK.
There is active policy to NOT insure those who are likely to NEED healthcare.
And you can hold no-one accountable for your problems.
You spend 17% of your GDP on healthcare, protect the wealthy, and don't recognise that the poorest are also the sickest. You have oversupply in specialist areas, which ;eads to low value, makes care unaffordable, and has done patients no good at all.
You came last in the latest measure of health care indicators out of 19 industrialised countries. And your score fell compared to 2 years ago. And the most important factor was access to care.
Iceland scored better. So did Ireland, France, Spain, Greece, Canada, Austria, Germany, Japan, New Zealand, Portugal...
< Message edited by drnick -- 8/2/2008 2:44:27 AM >
_____________________________
Who needs new music. Everyone knows Rock attained perfection in 1974. -- Homer Simpson
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/3/2008 1:28:54 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
quote:
That must been the reason the King of Jordon flew to the UK for treatement years ago...Oh wait, that's right he came to the United States...
Of course...our health care provides the best available---if you have a royal salary!
Ha! LOL! That rocked!)
My children were born in one of the best birthing hospitals in California and last I checked I wasn't paid a royal salary...
Of course those who want others to pay for their health care believe that <cough> free access to mediocre care rocks...
John
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/3/2008 1:31:10 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drnick
quote:
Of course...our health care provides the best available---if you have a royal salary!
How good the healthcare is has nothing to do with how good the best individual is - and I'd put any of my colleagues up against the best in the US any day.
It's to do with the overall structure in which they work.
And in fact, if you wanted to find the best docs, try Cuba.
quote:
Actually it's not a very good point... In a country founded on personal freedoms and reasonability, not the government being the provider of all things the idea of socialism is a dirty word... Of course since the person who posted doesn’t come from a country founded on personal freedoms and reasonability it's understandable...
What's being from Peru got to do with it?
In the US you chose the easy route: you decided comprehensive healthcare was too expensive. So around 1 in 7 aren't insured. Care is terribly fragmented. There is no rational structure. Your healthcare is supply-driven, and there is no relation between supply and use, and quality and outcomes.
Oops.
You have loads of hospitals, but coordinated care, home health care, hospice services, community services and mental health, public health and prevention are left out - there's no money in them.
Your admin costs are at least 3 times that in the UK.
There is active policy to NOT insure those who are likely to NEED healthcare.
And you can hold no-one accountable for your problems.
You spend 17% of your GDP on healthcare, protect the wealthy, and don't recognise that the poorest are also the sickest. You have oversupply in specialist areas, which ;eads to low value, makes care unaffordable, and has done patients no good at all.
You came last in the latest measure of health care indicators out of 19 industrialised countries. And your score fell compared to 2 years ago. And the most important factor was access to care.
Iceland scored better. So did Ireland, France, Spain, Greece, Canada, Austria, Germany, Japan, New Zealand, Portugal...
Yet a middle class guy like myself and my family have access to very good health care...
John
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/10/2008 2:27:10 PM
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whos_your_dolly
Posts: 87
Joined: 6/21/2008
Status: offline
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Time for the "Rainbow Connection" John...
someday we'll find it
the lovers, the dreamers and ME
its something that I'm supposed to be
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/12/2008 2:18:46 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 387
Joined: 6/7/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drnick
And in fact, if you wanted to find the best docs, try Cuba.
Which is why Castro stayed in Cuba to get his surgery... no, wait, he went elsewhere.
Non-'royal salaried' people flood across the Canadian border to get health care in the U.S. because they don't want to die waiting for it in Canada! Even Canadian leaders do. Now Canada HAS to privatize their system, and THAT is why socialism, and socialized medicine, is a dirty word.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/12/2008 7:33:00 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2472
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drnick
quote:
Of course...our health care provides the best available---if you have a royal salary!
How good the healthcare is has nothing to do with how good the best individual is - and I'd put any of my colleagues up against the best in the US any day.
It's to do with the overall structure in which they work.
And in fact, if you wanted to find the best docs, try Cuba.
quote:
Actually it's not a very good point... In a country founded on personal freedoms and reasonability, not the government being the provider of all things the idea of socialism is a dirty word... Of course since the person who posted doesn’t come from a country founded on personal freedoms and reasonability it's understandable...
What's being from Peru got to do with it?
In the US you chose the easy route: you decided comprehensive healthcare was too expensive. So around 1 in 7 aren't insured. Care is terribly fragmented. There is no rational structure. Your healthcare is supply-driven, and there is no relation between supply and use, and quality and outcomes.
Oops.
You have loads of hospitals, but coordinated care, home health care, hospice services, community services and mental health, public health and prevention are left out - there's no money in them.
Your admin costs are at least 3 times that in the UK.
There is active policy to NOT insure those who are likely to NEED healthcare.
And you can hold no-one accountable for your problems.
You spend 17% of your GDP on healthcare, protect the wealthy, and don't recognise that the poorest are also the sickest. You have oversupply in specialist areas, which ;eads to low value, makes care unaffordable, and has done patients no good at all.
You came last in the latest measure of health care indicators out of 19 industrialised countries. And your score fell compared to 2 years ago. And the most important factor was access to care.
Iceland scored better. So did Ireland, France, Spain, Greece, Canada, Austria, Germany, Japan, New Zealand, Portugal...
Good points. I know there are some very good doctors in Italy for the things that I have... actually some very good ones all over Europe. I've been to the "best" one in the US, but if he's the best, I don't want to see the worst. These are good points to me, but everyone has their own opinion and is entitled (to John).
I think many don't think that healthcare is a right...that everyone should be able to have the same kind/level of healthcare. I know millionaires who would like to see universal healthcare instituted, and they have more than enough money to take care of themselves and their families even w/o insurance (and donate much of it, which is why I even know of them to begin with). Not everyone is trying to be a mooch, but I'd like for the poor as well as the wealthy/middle class to be taken care of, in this regard at least.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/12/2008 11:25:38 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
Good points. I know there are some very good doctors in Italy for the things that I have... actually some very good ones all over Europe. I've been to the "best" one in the US, but if he's the best, I don't want to see the worst. These are good points to me, but everyone has their own opinion and is entitled (to John).
People are entitled to post whatever they wish, just as people are entitled to ignore what is posted because when it's stuff that cannot be backed up with facts...
quote:
I think many don't think that healthcare is a right...
It's not...
John
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/13/2008 1:37:21 AM
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relady
Posts: 1286
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
Status: offline
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quote:
I think many don't think that healthcare is a right...
It's not... Well, it should be. And hopefully we'll see that happen in the near future.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/13/2008 1:55:07 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
Well, it should be.
Based on what? And should we figure the government is going to regulate how people live... Are those who smoke, over eat and engage in other activities that lend themselves to needing medical care going to be dealt with given that rights come with responsibility...
quote:
And hopefully we'll see that happen in the near future.
What you'll see is a diminished level of care...
John
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/13/2008 11:51:49 AM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2472
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
Good points. I know there are some very good doctors in Italy for the things that I have... actually some very good ones all over Europe. I've been to the "best" one in the US, but if he's the best, I don't want to see the worst. These are good points to me, but everyone has their own opinion and is entitled (to John).
People are entitled to post whatever they wish, just as people are entitled to ignore what is posted because when it's stuff that cannot be backed up with facts...
quote:
I think many don't think that healthcare is a right...
It's not...
John
You never back up anything with facts. You talk on and on and on and on, and the talk is just your opinion. Apparently, your opinion is always the right one.
I DO think healthcare is a right, not a privilege. It should not be a privilege here to have decent healthcare. To think that it's something that you should only get if you're "good enough" or "have enough" is crazy, in MY opinion (not the person, but the opinion itself). I respect others' opinions and the person him- or herself, but I can disagree with whomever I wish to disagree with. I think some people's opinions and views on things are vitrolic...and very un-Christian. I don't think Jesus would tell us to let those who can pay (or be insured) be taken care of...and let those who cannot sit by and rot on the wayside. But if someone thinks that way, that's what right in their own mind.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/13/2008 11:53:20 AM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2472
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
I think many don't think that healthcare is a right...
It's not...
Well, it should be. And hopefully we'll see that happen in the near future.
I agree 100%...it's sad that we're (currently) the way we are about these things.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/13/2008 2:02:38 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 387
Joined: 6/7/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
I DO think healthcare is a right, not a privilege. It should not be a privilege here to have decent healthcare. To think that it's something that you should only get if you're "good enough" or "have enough" is crazy, in MY opinion (not the person, but the opinion itself). I respect others' opinions and the person him- or herself, but I can disagree with whomever I wish to disagree with. I think some people's opinions and views on things are vitrolic...and very un-Christian. I don't think Jesus would tell us to let those who can pay (or be insured) be taken care of...and let those who cannot sit by and rot on the wayside. But if someone thinks that way, that's what right in their own mind.
If it's un-Christian to let people sit by and rot on the wayside, then socialized medicine is un-Christian, because that's just what people do in countries with socialized health care. People don't die in this country for lack of ability to pay for care. People DO die in Europe, Canada, Cuba and everywhere else.
Some facts:
This is a survey of Canadians done in '05 to see what their priorities would be in improving health care. Their answers are frightening.
http://www.readersdigest.ca/mag/2005/04/health.html
Here's what's happening in Scotland:
Cancer patients are still waiting up to seven months for treatment.
Patients are supposed to be treated within 62 days of urgent referral, but figures showed only three areas in Scotland were meeting those targets every time.
In the worst cases, sufferers were kept hanging on for 265 days.
related article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6192150.stm
In Australia, more people dying while waiting for treatment - http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23762958-3102,00.html
How can you say universal health care will be an improvement, Solo? Are you so immersed in propoganda that the tragic realities of socialized care don't get through?
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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[Deleted] - 8/13/2008 2:19:17 PM
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Deleted User
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[Deleted by Admins]
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/13/2008 3:00:39 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
You never back up anything with facts.
So says the one who mentions personal stories that can never be validated...
quote:
You talk on and on and on and on, and the talk is just your opinion. Apparently, your opinion is always the right one.
Are you the kettle or the pot? Or do you believe your opinion is wrong?
quote:
I DO think healthcare is a right, not a privilege.
It's not...
quote:
I respect others' opinions and the person him- or herself, but I can disagree with whomever I wish to disagree with.
Who is denying your right to disagree?
quote:
I think some people's opinions and views on things are vitrolic...and very un-Christian.
I agree...
John
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/13/2008 3:08:05 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2472
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
I DO think healthcare is a right, not a privilege. It should not be a privilege here to have decent healthcare. To think that it's something that you should only get if you're "good enough" or "have enough" is crazy, in MY opinion (not the person, but the opinion itself). I respect others' opinions and the person him- or herself, but I can disagree with whomever I wish to disagree with. I think some people's opinions and views on things are vitrolic...and very un-Christian. I don't think Jesus would tell us to let those who can pay (or be insured) be taken care of...and let those who cannot sit by and rot on the wayside. But if someone thinks that way, that's what right in their own mind.
If it's un-Christian to let people sit by and rot on the wayside, then socialized medicine is un-Christian, because that's just what people do in countries with socialized health care. People don't die in this country for lack of ability to pay for care. People DO die in Europe, Canada, Cuba and everywhere else.
Some facts:
This is a survey of Canadians done in '05 to see what their priorities would be in improving health care. Their answers are frightening.
http://www.readersdigest.ca/mag/2005/04/health.html
Here's what's happening in Scotland:
Cancer patients are still waiting up to seven months for treatment.
Patients are supposed to be treated within 62 days of urgent referral, but figures showed only three areas in Scotland were meeting those targets every time.
In the worst cases, sufferers were kept hanging on for 265 days.
related article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6192150.stm
In Australia, more people dying while waiting for treatment - http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23762958-3102,00.html
How can you say universal health care will be an improvement, Solo? Are you so immersed in propoganda that the tragic realities of socialized care don't get through?
No, every system has its faults; but there are systems with more faults and flaws than others. With the best of systems there are (which is not the US's system, IMO) there are bad situations...there will always be problems with any system. I know more than you give me credit for, and I'd appreciate if you wouldn't assume that you know all of what I know or that you know everything about others. I'd say our current situation is more tragic than those things that happen elsewhere, but that depends on "elsewhere." Both are bad. We're worse. I don't advocate going to the worse universal healthcare system (they are not all equal), but I believe that, if actual effort was put into it, America could have a very good healthcare system for all people.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/14/2008 1:07:42 AM
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relady
Posts: 1286
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
Status: offline
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quote:
If it's un-Christian to let people sit by and rot on the wayside, then socialized medicine is un-Christian, because that's just what people do in countries with socialized health care. People don't die in this country for lack of ability to pay for care. Uh, hate to burst your bubble, but yes, they do. If you don't have money & insurance, you don't get the care you need. There have been several stories on the news in recent years about just this very subject.
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