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MrFribbles -> A Question of Prayer (6/2/2008 4:22:39 PM)

For a while now, there has been something that seems a bit... I don't know, unusual, about the way we pray. Basically, I'm wondering why so many Christians today feel the need to end their prayers by saying, "In Jesus' name, amen." Does anyone have any thoughts?
Now, just to clarify, I'm not asking why we pray in Jesus' name. Obviously, that's commanded in Scripture. My question is why we literally say it, as if it were some sort of incantation. Rather, I feel that the command to pray in Jesus' name is a command to pray in a way that is in line with Jesus and His character. Back in biblical times, someone's name was who they were - their reputation, if you will. So, to pray in His name is to pray for the same things that He would pray for - to pray according to God's will, in other words.
Also, why the need to end prayer with "amen," which literally just means yes, truly or indeed. Do we feel like we have to tell God, "Yes God, what I just said to you is really what I just said to you."?



J_Michael80 -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/2/2008 9:06:00 PM)

There are 3 reasons why we must pray "In Jesus's name":

1. It is a commandment from the bible.
2. You come by the authority of the "Jesus Christ." You are not coming in your own authority, rather someone else authorized you and gave you permission.
3. When you pray in "Jesus's name," then you are praying in his place or position as an "adopted son." Therefore, the person to whom you pray is expected to react to you, just like how the Father responds to the Son.



In regards to the word "AMEN." It has two meanings. "I agree" and "So be it" Why do we use it? There are 3 reasons.

1. In the bible, it symbolizes submittance.
2. The word “Amen” is found as the last word in several instances of the Bible.
3. Those same passages show us that the word “Amen” is a solemn affirmation of truth, a word that we use whenever we have said something that is true before God.



MrFribbles -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/2/2008 9:53:06 PM)

quote:

There are 3 reasons why we must pray "In Jesus's name":

1. It is a commandment from the bible.
2. You come by the authority of the "Jesus Christ." You are not coming in your own authority, rather someone else authorized you and gave you permission.
3. When you pray in "Jesus's name," then you are praying in his place or position as an "adopted son." Therefore, the person to whom you pray is expected to react to you, just like how the Father responds to the Son.


Again, I have no problem with praying in Jesus' name. My problem is, I don't see any command in Scripture to literally say the words "in Jesus' name," at the end of every prayer. It seems to me that doing so lessens Jesus' name. Again, in biblical times, the idea of one's name was not the same as it is today. Today, your name (at least on CrossWalk) is faithfulservant. Back then, your name would be your character, it would be who you were as demonstrated by your actions. So it seems to me that a prayer in Jesus' name is one that is in line with His will, and the will of the Father.
Let me give an example. Let's say there are two Christians who are praying. The first prays, "Dear Lord, I really, really, really want that new car. It'll make me feel so good, and then everyone will look up to me! While you're at it, my 3-bedroom house is a little small, could I have another one? Thanks. In Jesus' name, amen." The second one prays, "Lord, I know you are at work in the world in mighty ways. I thank you for the church in China, and I ask that you strengthen their faith. I thank you for the evangelistic effort that is now possible in Iraq, and that you would be at work there to spread your glory. Also, please be with the American church, that it would be diligent in faithfully preaching your word to a world that desperately needs your truth, hope and love." Which of these two truly prayed in Jesus' name?
(and just so nobody gets upset or confused - I am NOT, in any way, implying that everyone who says "In Jesus' name" in their prayers prays like that. Such an idea is utterly absurd)

quote:

In regards to the word "AMEN." It has two meanings. "I agree" and "So be it" Why do we use it? There are 3 reasons.

1. In the bible, it symbolizes submittance.
2. The word “Amen” is found as the last word in several instances of the Bible.
3. Those same passages show us that the word “Amen” is a solemn affirmation of truth, a word that we use whenever we have said something that is true before God.


OK, first, let me add something I forgot to say about "amen" earlier. I have no problem with "amen" in public prayers, if it is said by those listening. If that's the case, then it's a way to say, "Yes, we agree with what the person just praying has said to you, God, and we agree." But, of course, if someone is praying alone, or if the person leading a public prayer says it, it just seems a bit silly. They'd be saying, "Yep God, I just said that, and I agree with what I said." God isn't stupid, and He isn't impressed with repetitious words, so I see no reason to say that to God.
Now, onto your points.
1 - Where do you see this?
2 - The end of epistles, not prayers. We're not writing letters to God, we're talking to Him.
3 - Really? Because there are some epistles that don't end with amen. Are those less true than the ones that do? Or how about the Gospels? They don't end with amen. Maybe they're less true?



john_mark -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/3/2008 4:54:15 PM)

i think it is just tradition. i dont see anything wrong with it. if it was required to end prayer in the format "in Jesus name" then i think Jesus would have told the multitude that gathered to hear Him during the sermon on the mount. mt 6

6:9
"Pray, then, in this way: `Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
`Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.
`Give us this day our daily bread.
`And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
`And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]'



J_Michael80 -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/3/2008 6:10:01 PM)

John_Mark, I disagree with you. If saying AMEN is "not required" and is only a "matter of tradition," then why don't we just take the word AMEN out of the Apostles Creed? I'm sure Orthodox Christianity would not object to that kind suggestion.



ta_mosquito -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/3/2008 6:14:39 PM)

The Apostles' Creed isn't a prayer. It fits there - it's affirmation that what was said is truth.

FribbleMan - I hear where you're coming from.



J_Michael80 -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/3/2008 6:29:00 PM)

quote:

original: ta-mosquito

The Apostles' Creed isn't a prayer.
It fits there - it's affirmation that what was said is truth.


I agree with you, the Apostles Creed is not a prayer. Nevertheless, there are churches that use the Apostles Creed as part of their worship prayer. I also agree, like noted in my original post that the word "AMEN" is an affirming to what was said is truth. However, I don't believe that "AMEN" in prayers is some "type of tradition" and "not a requirement." I would reject this assertion.



john_mark -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/3/2008 6:34:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: faithfulservant_

John_Mark, I disagree with you. If saying AMEN is "not required" and is only a "matter of tradition," then why don't we just take the word AMEN out of the Apostles Creed? I'm sure orthodox Christianity would not violently object to that kind outrageous suggestion.


faithfulservant, i was specifically addressing "in Jesus name", but in reguards to AMEN you wrote this concerning amen

3. Those same passages show us that the word “Amen” is a solemn affirmation of truth, a word that we use whenever we have said something that is true before God.

we can say this about scripture, but is every prayer a solemn affirmation of truth and can we say that all prayer is something said that is true before God? or is it possible that someone could come before God in prayer and speak things that are not true about God? could the athietist not blaspheme God in prayer?



LCannon -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/3/2008 6:43:11 PM)

What Does “Amen” Mean?-Oddly, to get a scriptural answer to what “Amen” means, we go to a place where it is used not as the last word but the first word. Jesus would often start a solemn statement by saying "Verily" or "Truly". In John's gospel (eg John 3:3) Jesus is recorded as using the word twice in succession, "Verily, verily, I say to you...". This is actually the word “Amen”.

Amen, 'so be it'(darn spellcheck), agreement, etc. I sometime leave it off for effect but I always pray in 'Christ Jesus' Name' because His Name is all Power. BTW, affirmation in His Name is prayer.



J_Michael80 -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/3/2008 6:47:57 PM)

quote:

original: john_mark

Is it possible that someone could come before God in prayer and speak things that are not true about God? Could the athietist not blaspheme God in prayer?


Good question. The answer is "yes." Anyone could lie to God in their prayers and still confirm it with "AMEN." Nevertheless, I'm sure you will agree with me that "abuse does not nullify proper use."



ta_mosquito -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/3/2008 10:52:50 PM)

quote:

However, I don't believe that "AMEN" in prayers is some "type of tradition" and "not a requirement." I would reject this assertion.


So you think saying "amen" at the end of a prayer is a requirement?



J_Michael80 -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/3/2008 10:59:38 PM)

quote:

original: ta_mosquito

So you think saying "amen" at the end of a prayer is a requirement?


No. Nevertheless, I believe everyone who prays to the Father, in Jesus's name, should say "AMEN" at the end their prayers. Why? For the 3 reasons I stated on my original post. Yes, I stand by it.



ta_mosquito -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/3/2008 11:01:53 PM)

So it's not a requirement, but people should do it.

Gotcha.



hellohellohi -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/4/2008 9:32:59 AM)

Pretty interesting,

It sounds like we're wondering whether "Amen" isn't a redundancy. Perhaps "in Jesus' name" too in that we repeat it so often it becomes obvious or understood?

It sounds like if it is entirely redundant to the rest of the prayer, it resembles swearing. As in, "I have asked all these things, and I can assure You of my sincerity," or something.

That to me is confusing.

On the other hand, I LIKE the way it sounds and feels. And if God knows our hearts, prayer is a bit of a redundancy for Him as well. But it may be that the confession and utterance of our thoughts and prayers is for US. Not in a bad sense, but God knows that we are helped by putting thouhts into words, and hearing for ourselves if they ring true. The "amen" at the end could be an exclamation that we have indeed found that our words rang true -- that is, it would be a quick nod and thanks to the Holy Spirit for helping the sincerity of our hearts!

Jesus, using "amen" to preface a statement didn't need verification to know that his statements were true. Or, his justification was well-known to Him ahead of time.

That was really neat to learn that "amen" and "verily" were the same word though. Makes sense.

"Amen," in my mind, could also be a short hand for "Thy will be done." I know "So be it," in the context of a prayer, refers to everything asked for in Jesus' name, but if part of our prayer had also included an acknowledgement that we did not thoroughly KNOW what to pray for or to ask for, nevertheless "it", that is, God's will shall be done.

That is probably a common scenario that we all face, in which are faith is too imperfect to know God's will, yet we pray for it nonetheless when we say "Amen." It is said, as far as I understand, that the Holy Spirit can help our words when we have few or none? Our "amen" could also be an expression of the fact that, "I am still struggling with a lack of faith; thy will be done."



john_mark -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/4/2008 5:24:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: faithfulservant_

quote:

original: john_mark

Is it possible that someone could come before God in prayer and speak things that are not true about God? Could the athietist not blaspheme God in prayer?


Good question. The answer is "yes." Anyone could lie to God in their prayers and still confirm it with "AMEN." Nevertheless, I'm sure you will agree with me that "abuse does not nullify proper use."


i guess where i was going with is that if your statement about using amen is true

3. Those same passages show us that the word “Amen” is a solemn affirmation of truth, a word that we use whenever we have said something that is true before God

at the end of any public prayer in church or any other place in which you might participate in public prayer, you would as a participant have to be absolutely certain that what was said in that prayer is a solemn affirmation of truth and true before God. that would seem to require some time to digest what was said in the prayer, compare it to scripture and so on to be sure that it was truth. while this might not be a problem in a formal prayer, it would be an issue in an informal prayer. that would be one reason i would have difficulty with a rigid definition



MrFribbles -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/4/2008 7:50:33 PM)

quote:

FribbleMan - I hear where you're coming from.


I guess that means I'm not a total heretic, eh? ; )

quote:

I believe everyone who prays to the Father, in Jesus's name, should say "AMEN" at the end their prayers. Why? For the 3 reasons I stated on my original post. Yes, I stand by it.


And if that's your conviction, more power to you. I certainly don't think it is sinful to say "amen" when you finish praying. However, I still see no command in Scripture to do so.



ta_mosquito -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/4/2008 9:05:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

quote:

FribbleMan - I hear where you're coming from.


I guess that means I'm not a total heretic, eh? ; )


Exactly, since I have all correct knowledge and anyone that differs from my view is ignorant, self-deceived, and/or actively working to thwart God's truth.

[8D][8|]

(And if anyone DARES take this post seriously, they'll have some 'splainin' to do...)



J_Michael80 -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/4/2008 11:30:51 PM)

quote:

original: john_mark

At the end of any public prayer in church or any other place.


In my original post, I was clearly referring to a "personal prayer." In other words, when you pray directly to God. [;)]

Since you have now changed the subject to a "public prayer" then I will give you different answer (my personal experience). Never in my life have I ever (questioned or judged) anyones heart when they have prayed to God in public. I have always given my fellow brother or sister the benefit of the doubt that whenever they make a "public prayer," it is sincerely from their heart. Yes, even a non Christian........



MrFribbles -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/5/2008 12:11:08 AM)

quote:

Never in my life have I ever had to (question or judge) anyones heart when they have prayed to God in public. I have always given my fellow brother or sister the benefit of the doubt that when they make a "public prayer," it was sincerely from their heart. Yes, even a non Christian........


Just because a prayer is sincerely from the heart, that does not mean we should affirm it! Matthew 12:34-35 tells us pretty clearly that sometimes, what is sincerely from the heart can be good or bad.
I have seen many public prayers from televangelists I would never say "amen" too! They are clearly ungodly, self-centered, greedy and prideful. They're paying lip-service to God, but all they're interested in is the gullible viewers "faith offering" of their life savings. So, I would encourage you to seek discernment when listening to any prayer, no matter how sincere the pray-er may sound.



hellohellohi -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/5/2008 11:36:43 AM)

quote:

3. Those same passages show us that the word “Amen” is a solemn affirmation of truth, a word that we use whenever we have said something that is true before God

at the end of any public prayer in church or any other place in which you might participate in public prayer, you would as a participant have to be absolutely certain that what was said in that prayer is a solemn affirmation of truth and true before God. that would seem to require some time to digest what was said in the prayer, compare it to scripture and so on to be sure that it was truth. while this might not be a problem in a formal prayer, it would be an issue in an informal prayer. that would be one reason i would have difficulty with a rigid definition


I'm the type of person who never says anything unless its negative I guess, but...

I think a very nice way to define "swearing" is "a solemn affirmation of what is already claimed or implied to be truthful." If that oath is directed toward God and is stated before a group of people, it could be CONSTRUED as not only swearing at God, but taking His name in vain.

I'm not suggesting "amen" is a sin, but perhaps it should not be understood in those terms.

The question of whether or not we are being truthful before God is one-in-the-same-as the question of whether we are sinning. Since it is God's role to judge our hearts, I don't think we can reliably attest to our own truthfulness or sincerity. Rather, as Jesus says, just say this or that, don't preface it with an oath. MrFribbles, sounds like I need to look up Matthew 12:34-35!

Please see my other post if you would like to know what I think "amen" should really mean!



hellohellohi -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/5/2008 11:44:21 AM)

Prayer could also be a request for the things that we believe God does indeed will for us. As in, "I am acknowledging verbally that it is your will for that mountain to be cast into the ocean, and -- credit can only be given to the Holy Spirit! -- I am thanking you for being at one with your will. I am thanking you for my faith."

That, in short, is what I think "amen" means, "Allow me to thank you for my faith." It is the sound of gratitude.



MrFribbles -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/5/2008 11:59:23 AM)

quote:

MrFribbles, sounds like I need to look up Matthew 12:34-35!


...Seriously? Heh, did you read my post? Or are you saying I interpreted the verse incorrectly?

quote:

That, in short, is what I think "amen" means, "Allow me to thank you for my faith." It is the sound of gratitude.


Where do you see this, either in Scripture or in the original meanings of "amen"?



hellohellohi -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/5/2008 2:04:49 PM)

quote:

Where do you see this, either in Scripture or in the original meanings of "amen"?

answer: the psychological experience of it

I'm not trying to be authoritative. On the one hand I'm using logic concerning the definitions of swearing and of sin, and on the other I'm just saying what I think it means, regardless of the root meaning of the phrase. Words do not always mean precisely what they say (some are metaphorical, for instance.)

I'm just posing an idea.

I agree its possible to be insincere when praying, but I don't think we need to worry about sincerity, either. I am asking, who are we to judge if we are truly sincere? I was trying to suggest that "amen" could mean, "help my sincerity" or "thank you for what sincerity I have -- what purity of heart I have is surely from You."

So, I was just saying "amen" actually is saying thank you in a way. "So it is, it is so" could be like a Christian "koan" which marks one's gratitude for grace. Our gratitude itself could be a form of grace, and so we have a situation which transcends logic or at least is non-rational and paradoxical. That's why I say it's meaning does not have to be something abstract (like a proposition with a possible truth value or the verbal token for some object) but rather somthing grounded in lived experience.

If any of that strikes you as true or false, let me know.



hellohellohi -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/5/2008 2:06:13 PM)

oh yeah,
about the verse. I meant, I need to look it up, because it must be an interesting an uplifting verse!

I am not familiar with it off-hand.

So yeah, the Internets are surely rampant with sarcasm, but I wasn't.



MrFribbles -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/5/2008 6:30:44 PM)

quote:

oh yeah,
about the verse. I meant, I need to look it up, because it must be an interesting an uplifting verse!

I am not familiar with it off-hand.

So yeah, the Internets are surely rampant with sarcasm, but I wasn't.


*smack head* My apologies! I completely misread your statement! That's what I get for posting on here right after waking up. ; ) I thought you said I needed to look up the verse. Again, my apologies for misunderstanding!

quote:

If any of that strikes you as true or false, let me know.


I wouldn't say any of what you wrote strikes me as especially false, in that, I don't think it would be harmful for the believer to have that kind of attitude. However, I would say that it would be dangerous and wrong to say that any believer must have that kind of attitude (which, just so there's no confusion, I do not think you are doing, I just mention it for the sake of discussion). In my study of Scripture, I see no word commanded to be said in prayer. I see instructions on attitude and general content, but never specific words. So, if saying "amen" in the way you describe helps maintain a biblical attitude on prayer, then go for it.



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