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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/24/2008 6:50:41 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 2104
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To Whom it matters:
RE: O mio Babbino Caro
It's an A. Just an A.
shallbe
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/24/2008 7:03:31 PM
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shemaromans
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
To Whom it matters:
RE: O mio Babbino Caro
It's an A. Just an A.
shallbe
It matters to me, Esther. Thank you for the information!
...an A's a piece of cake. 
I've been thinking about and praying for you and the BP/GPs today. Glad you're making it through the day well. :)
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/25/2008 11:23:56 AM
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ShallbeRebuilt
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Thanks again, everyone, for your thoughts and prayers yesterday.
quote:
Here are some more scripture references that will help solidify this understanding of God’s independence.
Job 41:11
Psalm 50:10-12
John 17:5 and 24 (specifically references God’s love for Jesus and Jesus’ love for God.)
None of these speak to whether God want's anything. Of course God is independant, He's God. BTW what's the first reference supposed to be?
Each of those scriptures is an example of God being completely satisfied in Himself. I fixed the typo.
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John_O
1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
If we can't even imagine the good things that God has for us how can we claim to even remotely understand just how great God is (the giver is always greater than the gift, just as the creator is always greater than the creation).
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Allow me to quote the entire passage in context:
1 Corinthians 2:6-13
“However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery. The hidden wisdom of God which God ordained for his glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew, for had they known they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, eye has not seen nor ear heard nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love him. But God has revealed them to us through his Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of the man except the spirit of the man which is in him. Even so, no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things, we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” (emphasis added for clarity)
1 Cor 13:9-12 Now we see in part.....
Well, John, then which is it? Do we know or do we not know? Has God revealed them, or has he not?
Here is context of the verse you quoted:
1 Corinthians 13:8-13
“Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully even as I have been fully known. So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
1 Corinthians 13 is the “Love chapter”. Its main subject is love. The subject of the scripture quoted above in an earlier chapter of 1 Corinthians 2 “the wisdom of God” “deep things of God” “the hidden wisdom”, etc. For clarity here, I will quote from Nelson’s New Illustrated Bible Commentary:
“This third section of ch. 13 moves from the nature of love to its permanence. Love never fails: this uncompromising affirmation contrasts with grace-gifts, which are transitory at best. One day all the gifts will be needed no longer, but love will continue forever. Prophecies…tongues…knowledge: Paul focuses on three of the sixteen gifts to demonstrate the temporariness of them all. Prophecies…will fail: the word translated “fail” (katageo) is in the passive voice. Literally the translation is “prophecies will be stopped.” Tongues…will cease…knowledge…will vanish away [be stopped]: Prophecy and knowledge (which are among the twelve body gifts for edification) are in part (Greek ek merous). They, with all the gifts of ch. 12, serve the body of Christ, but only for now. We know in part, we prophesy in part. These “in part” (ek merous) gifts will continue until that which is perfect (Greek teleios, complete) has come. The perfection in view here has been interpreted quite differently.
(and it goes on to explain those different interpretations, which are not really related to the point being made).
It’s quite possible, even probable, that the subjects of these two sections of scripture do not relate to one another at all.
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So He could have instantly recieved greater glory by creating us in heaven with a greater capacity to understand how worthy He is. Earth was not necessary soley for God to be glorified.
Can you list some scriptural references that support the theory that God could have instantly received greater glory by creating us in Heaven? How do we know what brings him the greatest glory? Who would we ask?
I have no scripture references at this time. I do know that God is God and can do anything. So I cannot exclude this possiblity from His abilities. I guess we'll ask Him when we get home.
Well, I can answer the last question. We would ask GOD what would bring him the greatest glory. Therefore, if GOD himself says that slaughtering Jesus and writing the names of the redeemed in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was Slain with His blood, then creating the earth and man so that the crucifixion, death, and resurrection of Jesus could be completed; if God says that THAT brings him the most glory, it is somewhat pointless, in my estimation, to question it.
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So why is the Earth needed? Because in order to honestly prefer God (love God) we must have the freedom to reject God.
Again I request scripture that supports this idea. Ideally, several scripture references that actually state that the earth was needed so that people would have the freedom to reject God. Short of that, it would be educational to read scriptures that state any of the following: 1)why the earth was needed or 2) that honestly preferring God requires a freedom to reject him or even 3) who rejects God, when and why.
I'll return to this later.
I’ll be looking forward to it.
Meanwhile, last night at church our pastor was yet again attempting a Wednesday night devotional and he referenced Ephesians 1. I found the following treasures there concerning the answers to some “whys”
Ephesians 1:3-14
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
I added my own emphasis. Note that “so that” would be the answer to a “why”. To my mind the question can be stated “why have we obtained an inheritance, why does God work all things according to the counsel of his will?” “Why were we sealed with the Holy Spirit?”
I note also that there is something we have been made to know.
Anyway, just some cool scriptures.
Must go practice singing!
shallbe
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/25/2008 11:26:11 AM
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FunBetty
Posts: 7181
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
To Whom it matters:
RE: O mio Babbino Caro
It's an A. Just an A.
shallbe
It matters to me, Esther. Thank you for the information!
...an A's a piece of cake.
I've been thinking about and praying for you and the BP/GPs today. Glad you're making it through the day well. :)
Mmm....I could handle an A with good warm up. Not a piece of cake but close enough to not sound awful. That's the nice thing about my upper range. It either comes out on pitch, or doesn't come out at all! lol
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/25/2008 12:42:54 PM
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AngelInWaiting1983
Posts: 10850
Joined: 6/8/2007
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A as in two A's after middle C? (Sorry I can't remember its number right now)
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Reflecting with Terri
Dance like no one is watching. If they are, who cares!
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/25/2008 12:48:12 PM
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FunBetty
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AngelInWaiting1983
A as in two A's after middle C? (Sorry I can't remember its number right now)
Yep. The one just about the staff.
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Fun Betty's Therapy Centre and Cheesecake and Cookie Shoppe
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/25/2008 1:00:15 PM
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AngelInWaiting1983
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I can hit that one! I used to be able to hit the C above it, on a really good day the E.
_____________________________
Reflecting with Terri
Dance like no one is watching. If they are, who cares!
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/25/2008 1:10:40 PM
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FunBetty
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AngelInWaiting1983
I can hit that one! I used to be able to hit the C above it, on a really good day the E.
I've never gone above a Bflat. But I've managed that in warm ups (when my professor wasn't telling me what note I hit--- I had sopranophobia - fear of hitting high notes). There was another song when I was in the chorus where ALL sopranos were up to Bflat and hanging out up there. I managed to hit it okay in performance but some of the rehearsals were iffy!!!
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/25/2008 1:21:58 PM
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AngelInWaiting1983
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I've lost a lot of my higher range due to lack of use. I've got an awesome lower register now...lol
_____________________________
Reflecting with Terri
Dance like no one is watching. If they are, who cares!
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/25/2008 1:37:51 PM
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WaitingforBoaz
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WaitingforBoaz
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ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
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ORIGINAL: WaitingforBoaz
Esther are you taking Italian as a foreign language or memorizing lyrics?
I "taught" my kids Italian when we homeschooled.
Memorizing lyrics. One of the privileges I have this semester is to play the part of the The Principessa in Puccini's Suor Angelica.
shallbe
How cool is that!!!! I would love to see that!!!
Principessa is my littles nickname.
Just curious, how do you say Principessa? soft C or chee?
BTW I am encouraged that yesterday was an okay day for you. I was a bit worried when I did not see you all day, but then again you are EXTREMELY busy. LOL.
There is a thread in singles called "That's a lie,"and I can come up with 100's of scriptures, that prove to me, that what the enemy throws at me, is a lie. However, looking at your life and seeing how far you have come and how successful you have been in the years following Michael's death is "living truth" that proves the enemy a liar. I am not sure you know what a blessing you are to me and those here. I hope you know now.
One last thing, I appreciate your stand that everything debated in your thread has to stand up to scripture. I enjoy reading your debates. When I am not so busy just existing and refuting the lies of the enemy it may be fun to take part. 
Blessings,
WFB
_____________________________
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a mans character, give him power" - Abraham Lincoln
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/25/2008 2:01:54 PM
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FunBetty
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AngelInWaiting1983
I've lost a lot of my higher range due to lack of use. I've got an awesome lower register now...lol
Terri you're young enough to not be losing your range due to lack of use. Some vocal excercising would help get that back.
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Fun Betty's Therapy Centre and Cheesecake and Cookie Shoppe
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/25/2008 2:10:13 PM
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AngelInWaiting1983
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Oh I know. Smoking hasn't helped either. I used to not be able to sing below middle C, but now i'm a pretty good tenor.
_____________________________
Reflecting with Terri
Dance like no one is watching. If they are, who cares!
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/25/2008 2:25:27 PM
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FunBetty
Posts: 7181
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AngelInWaiting1983
Oh I know. Smoking hasn't helped either. I used to not be able to sing below middle C, but now i'm a pretty good tenor.
girl....that's the #1 thing to destroy your vocal chords!!!!
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Fun Betty's Therapy Centre and Cheesecake and Cookie Shoppe
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/25/2008 2:31:14 PM
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AngelInWaiting1983
Posts: 10850
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Trust me I know! I'm trying to decide if I want to audition for Gypsy. What do y'all think?
_____________________________
Reflecting with Terri
Dance like no one is watching. If they are, who cares!
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/25/2008 9:46:49 PM
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John_O
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
quote:
So He could have instantly recieved greater glory by creating us in heaven with a greater capacity to understand how worthy He is. Earth was not necessary soley for God to be glorified.
Can you list some scriptural references that support the theory that God could have instantly received greater glory by creating us in Heaven? How do we know what brings him the greatest glory? Who would we ask?
Mt 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Mr 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
Lu 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
Lu 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
If we can conceive of it, God can do it. For that matter stuff that we could never even dream of, God can do.
How do we know what brings Him greater glory? We don't. We'll ask when we get there. This whole line of reasoning was brought about by your claim that Jesus dying for those who hated him gave him the greatest glory conceivable. Yet God can quite posisbly conceive of more.
I do know that God is God and can do anything. So I cannot exclude this possiblity from His abilities. I guess we'll ask Him when we get home.
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So why is the Earth needed? Because in order to honestly prefer God (love God) we must have the freedom to reject God.
Again I request scripture that supports this idea. Ideally, several scripture references that actually state that the earth was needed so that people would have the freedom to reject God. Short of that, it would be educational to read scriptures that state any of the following: 1)why the earth was needed or 2) that honestly preferring God requires a freedom to reject him or even 3) who rejects God, when and why.
2. "Prefer" is the word Mr Piper used. "Prefer" means to esteem one higher than another. So to prefer God we must have the ability to esteem Him higher than another, that is, we must be able to choose him over another. To be a choice it must be free. If we cannot reject God then we do not have the freedom to accept him either. Multitudes of places in the bible he gives us the opportunity to choose. (I'll have to get a list put together) Why give us the choice if we have no choice?
3. We know that those who go to hell go because they rejected God. The OT is full of examples of those who rejected God (see "Idolatry"). The NT has at least one example that comes to me instantly (John 6:66)
1. That's the purpose of this whole discussion. Why is the earth necessary? We know that the greatest command is to love God. Love is only love if it is freely given. Therefore we needed a place where we could choose to love Him or not love him. So far I've seen nothing that dissuades me from this understanding.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/25/2008 10:26:34 PM
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John_O
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
Thanks again, everyone, for your thoughts and prayers yesterday.
quote:
Here are some more scripture references that will help solidify this understanding of God’s independence.
Job 41:11
Psalm 50:10-12
John 17:5 and 24 (specifically references God’s love for Jesus and Jesus’ love for God.)
None of these speak to whether God want's anything. Of course God is independant, He's God. BTW what's the first reference supposed to be?
Each of those scriptures is an example of God being completely satisfied in Himself. I fixed the typo.
Job 41:11 ¶ Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.
Yep God has everything that exists. Note that this verse does not say that he is satisfied in himself. He could conceive of and create other things (like man) that do not yet exist for some reason. God is eternally existent. Man is not. Therefore we know that God existed before we did. Why did he create us if he was satisfied in Himself?
Psalm 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
11 I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.
12 If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.
Again He has everything that exists. But it does not say that He is satisfied in himself.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
24 ¶ Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
I don't see the connection here at all. How do you get God being self satisfied, or for that matter, having all the love he wanted in these verses? Yep. The Father loves the Son and the Son loves the Father but obviously (according to my read of scripture) God wanted more. That's why He created us and commanded us to love Him as the greatest commandment
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John_O
1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
If we can't even imagine the good things that God has for us how can we claim to even remotely understand just how great God is (the giver is always greater than the gift, just as the creator is always greater than the creation).
quote:
Allow me to quote the entire passage in context:
1 Corinthians 2:6-13
“However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery. The hidden wisdom of God which God ordained for his glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew, for had they known they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, eye has not seen nor ear heard nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love him. But God has revealed them to us through his Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of the man except the spirit of the man which is in him. Even so, no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things, we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” (emphasis added for clarity)
1 Cor 13:9-12 Now we see in part.....
Well, John, then which is it? Do we know or do we not know? Has God revealed them, or has he not?
If we know everything God knows, if He has revealed everything to us, When am I going to get married? Obviously we don't know everything but only in part. We know He has shown us somethings, but none of us is God. We just plain don't know everything.
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Here is context of the verse you quoted:
1 Corinthians 13:8-13
“Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully even as I have been fully known. So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
1 Corinthians 13 is the “Love chapter”. Its main subject is love. The subject of the scripture quoted above in an earlier chapter of 1 Corinthians 2 “the wisdom of God” “deep things of God” “the hidden wisdom”, etc. For clarity here, I will quote from Nelson’s New Illustrated Bible Commentary:
“This third section of ch. 13 moves from the nature of love to its permanence. Love never fails: this uncompromising affirmation contrasts with grace-gifts, which are transitory at best. One day all the gifts will be needed no longer, but love will continue forever. Prophecies…tongues…knowledge: Paul focuses on three of the sixteen gifts to demonstrate the temporariness of them all. Prophecies…will fail: the word translated “fail” (katageo) is in the passive voice. Literally the translation is “prophecies will be stopped.” Tongues…will cease…knowledge…will vanish away [be stopped]: Prophecy and knowledge (which are among the twelve body gifts for edification) are in part (Greek ek merous). They, with all the gifts of ch. 12, serve the body of Christ, but only for now. We know in part, we prophesy in part. These “in part” (ek merous) gifts will continue until that which is perfect (Greek teleios, complete) has come. The perfection in view here has been interpreted quite differently.
(and it goes on to explain those different interpretations, which are not really related to the point being made).
It’s quite possible, even probable, that the subjects of these two sections of scripture do not relate to one another at all.
All of scripture relates to itself somehow. Are you trying to say that we know more than just in part? Yes this section of scripture deals primarily with love. But in defining love it uses indisputable facts. We know in part. But we will kow more when we get home.
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Therefore, if GOD himself says that slaughtering Jesus and writing the names of the redeemed in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was Slain with His blood, then creating the earth and man so that the crucifixion, death, and resurrection of Jesus could be completed; if God says that THAT brings him the most glory, it is somewhat pointless, in my estimation, to question it.
Did I miss something? I don't recall seeing that in scripture. (I do recall people trying to interpret some of scripture that way but it wasn't clear at all to me.) Step me through it again, maybe I missed something.
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Ephesians 1:11-14
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
I added my own emphasis. Note that “so that” would be the answer to a “why”. To my mind the question can be stated “why have we obtained an inheritance, why does God work all things according to the counsel of his will?” “Why were we sealed with the Holy Spirit?”
So God saved us so we would praise Him. OK. I can agree with that. But that still doesn't say why the Earth was necessary. Again He could have created us straight to heaven and we still would have praised Him.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/29/2008 10:14:44 PM
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John_O
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