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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 4:18:56 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 886
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OK! OK! I see what your saying. I'm still not getting what this has to do with tithing...If you or anyone else do not want to tithe, that's on you. You are basing this on your convictions and what you perceive to be the word of God. If I don't respond in this thread for a while, it's because I'm not as passionate about this subject and it is not holding my interest...I do enjoy the dialogue. God bless!!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 4:23:10 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
I hate the way that it is taught. They misconstrue Malachi as a quid pro quo clause. But it doesn't work that way, as you pointed out:
"Having done loan officer work and from conversing with others in this field, a large portion of saints have poor credit. Faithful tithe paying saints!"
I find that interesting. Interesting indeed. I have never had credit problems, in part due to using credit sparingly and paying cash or paying early whenever possible. In fact, I paid my mortgage off over 10 years early due to an unexpected blessing from God.
I grew up in a home of 8 kids. My father was the only one who worked. He had a blue collar job. My family struggled and always had debt. I remember him asking family relatives for money to borrow many times. My father would faithfully pay the tithe every Sunday. So i know what idblthink02 is saying.
A good steward isn't measured on what one gives, it's measured by what one has kept.
Interesting. Very Interesting. There are 7 kids in my wife's family and only my FIL every worked outside the home. He was just a country preacher to small churches - even spent several years as a church-planter, raising his own support. Guess what? Yeppers, he has always tithed and taught his children to do so. He even influenced me.
I guess that 8th kid tipped the scales so that God was unable to meet your family's needs, huh?
I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
-Psalm 37:25
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 4:25:27 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6352
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
Of course, Paul NEVER taught tithing (neither did the other apostles), despite referring to the law.
And while condemning certain practices under the Law, why o why didn't a single Apostle say a single, solitary word against tithing? Is is possible there was no reason to?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 4:31:33 PM
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jbbaab44
Posts: 553
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If you look at the significance of first fruit/born offerings, it is a demonstration of the eternal qualities of Jesus. What i'm saying is that although the high priest is a quality of Jesus Christ, that does not mean that we should continue the ordinances that commemorate the functions that Jesus has. You speak as if tithing was a commemoration of Jesus priesthood, just as the Lord's table commemorates His death.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 4:38:59 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1200
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
Of course, Paul NEVER taught tithing (neither did the other apostles), despite referring to the law.
And while condemning certain practices under the Law, why o why didn't a single Apostle say a single, solitary word against tithing? Is is possible there was no reason to?
Perhaps the same reason as it applies to the other vows of sanctification? Are they also being observed in your church?
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 4:39:20 PM
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jbbaab44
Posts: 553
Joined: 2/6/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
I hate the way that it is taught. They misconstrue Malachi as a quid pro quo clause. But it doesn't work that way, as you pointed out:
"Having done loan officer work and from conversing with others in this field, a large portion of saints have poor credit. Faithful tithe paying saints!"
I find that interesting. Interesting indeed. I have never had credit problems, in part due to using credit sparingly and paying cash or paying early whenever possible. In fact, I paid my mortgage off over 10 years early due to an unexpected blessing from God.
I grew up in a home of 8 kids. My father was the only one who worked. He had a blue collar job. My family struggled and always had debt. I remember him asking family relatives for money to borrow many times. My father would faithfully pay the tithe every Sunday. So i know what idblthink02 is saying.
A good steward isn't measured on what one gives, it's measured by what one has kept.
Interesting. Very Interesting. There are 7 kids in my wife's family and only my FIL every worked outside the home. He was just a country preacher to small churches - even spent several years as a church-planter, raising his own support. Guess what? Yeppers, he has always tithed and taught his children to do so. He even influenced me.
I guess that 8th kid tipped the scales so that God was unable to meet your family's needs, huh?
I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
-Psalm 37:25
Hey look i agree. I'm with you. I really am. this is why i'm saying this:
it doesn't matter how happy, how willing or, how much you give. If you are a poor steward, and make dumb financial decisions, then you are going to be in debt. So it doesn't matter if you give to God but don't pay your bills, or pay your bills but don't give to God, you will be judged as a bad steward, not as a bad tither or bill payer.
< Message edited by jbbaab44 -- 6/23/2008 4:45:50 PM >
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 4:41:07 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6352
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
Of course, Paul NEVER taught tithing (neither did the other apostles), despite referring to the law.
And while condemning certain practices under the Law, why o why didn't a single Apostle say a single, solitary word against tithing? Is is possible there was no reason to?
Perhaps the same reason as it applies to the other vows of sanctification? Are they also being observed in your church?
What does voluntary vows of sanctification have to do with anything? I am sanctified in Christ, nothing else can make me more sanctified than that.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 4:47:49 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
A good steward isn't measured on what one gives, it's measured by what one has kept.
A steward is a person who manages another's property or financial affairs; one who administers anything as the agent of another or others. That would include spending and investing wisely.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 4:50:15 PM
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jbbaab44
Posts: 553
Joined: 2/6/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
A good steward isn't measured on what one gives, it's measured by what one has kept.
A steward is a person who manages another's property or financial affairs; one who administers anything as the agent of another or others. That would include spending and investing wisely.
Yep i agree, i guess you said invester. but i want to expound further. i would say that a steward is an investor. Remember that is was the poor steward who buried the talents in the ground and gave 100% of it back to his master.
_____________________________
Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 5:00:31 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1200
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
What does voluntary vows of sanctification have to do with anything? I am sanctified in Christ, nothing else can make me more sanctified than that.
My mistake. It’s actually the “laws of sanctification through vows” in Leviticus 27, including tithes.
You’re absolutely right in that sanctification now comes through Christ alone.
“But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.” Gal 5:18 (This includes the law to tithe.)
It’s all in their Jimbo. Hope that helps...
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 7:56:29 PM
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prophet
Posts: 429
Joined: 4/19/2005
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The real problem is the word "tithe" when used to teach of giving in the NT church. Abram tithe , yes but maybe just the one time and of his war spoils, not of his increase, which was the requirement of the Levithical tithe. So how can one form a tithe requirement from Abram?
Nor can one form tithe reqmnt from the Levithical tithe. Theres no such Levite calling today.
So giving today in the church is to
a) ensure that your family is provided for
b) Widows and orphans are taken care of
c) deacons are taken care of
d) no one is in want......
Shalom
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 6:23:58 AM
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Random
Posts: 1083
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Zipperhead
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Okay, for those of you that believe in tithing on your increase, what do you do about decreases?
Example, you buy a house for $150K, and sell it for $125K. Ignoring any costs, you "lost" $25K. How does this impact what you tithe on?
Do you net it against other increases and pay on that? For example, salary of $50K and loss of $25K so you only tithe on $25K.
Or do you tithe on the salary of $50K and not reduce your giving for the loss?
Or do you do something else?
_____________________________
"That which has always been accepted by everyone, everywhere, is almost certain to be false." -- Valery
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 8:51:43 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 886
Joined: 11/30/2007
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Where does it say honor the LORD with your decrease? I would not tithe on a decrease...probably the 50K...I guess that's up to the person.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 9:05:03 AM
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LBolt
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Also, if you were to sell it for a profit, if you factor in what was paid in interest, you probably didn't make money.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 9:12:07 AM
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jbbaab44
Posts: 553
Joined: 2/6/2006
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don't forget about subtracting inflation and the expenses it cost you to maintain and fix up.
_____________________________
Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 2:01:45 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2441
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
Do you net it against other increases and pay on that? For example, salary of $50K and loss of $25K so you only tithe on $25K.
Yes this is what I do.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 8:47:47 AM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1504
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
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I'm still trying to understand how income (from work) is "increase".
My company doesn't pay me for doing nothing. When I get paid, it is in EXCHANGE for the work I provided.
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 9:08:59 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6352
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
I'm still trying to understand how income (from work) is "increase".
My company doesn't pay me for doing nothing. When I get paid, it is in EXCHANGE for the work I provided.
So, you think everything you accumulate from work is because of an ability you created - that you take credit for all that you are and have and your potential for making more? Nobody and nothing can take that away from you - stroke, heart attack, lay offs - you are self-sufficient and God deserves no credit or glory whatsoever?
Is that what you are saying? Since you exchange YOUR sovereign talent for cash, you owe God no credit, honor, recognition?
And how do you consider what you do as different than a farmer or rancher? You think they sleep in all day except to collect a bag of cash for selling their "increase"? You really think they have a life of ease, never EXCHANGING work for increase?
Did you get that from someone else or make it up all by yourself?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 12:35:41 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1504
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
I'm still trying to understand how income (from work) is "increase".
My company doesn't pay me for doing nothing. When I get paid, it is in EXCHANGE for the work I provided.
So, you think everything you accumulate from work is because of an ability you created - that you take credit for all that you are and have and your potential for making more? Nobody and nothing can take that away from you - stroke, heart attack, lay offs - you are self-sufficient and God deserves no credit or glory whatsoever?
Is that what you are saying? Since you exchange YOUR sovereign talent for cash, you owe God no credit, honor, recognition?
And how do you consider what you do as different than a farmer or rancher? You think they sleep in all day except to collect a bag of cash for selling their "increase"? You really think they have a life of ease, never EXCHANGING work for increase?
Did you get that from someone else or make it up all by yourself?
I'm sorry, I don't get where you're going with this.
All I said was that I believe that getting paid for work performed is INCOME and not INCREASE, and would not fall under tithing requirements (assuming that this principle was in effect today).
Income (noun): the amount of money received over a period of time either as payment for work, goods, or services.
On the other hand, hypothetically, if it were in effect today, I would think that company bonuses, gifts, etc would be considered increase.
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 2:59:15 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6352
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
I'm sorry, I don't get where you're going with this.
Income is not increase only if you are sovereign, all your intellect, talent, strength, gifts are self generated and self perpetuated.
You "exchange" something that God gave you and you receive an increase in income. It's all His and He can remove your ability to "exchange" anything for income in a heart beat. Visit a nursing home and notice the under 40s or stroll through a cemetery if you don't believe me.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 3:03:31 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1200
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
I'm sorry, I don't get where you're going with this.
Income is not increase only if you are sovereign, all your intellect, talent, strength, gifts are self generated and self perpetuated.
You "exchange" something that God gave you and you receive an increase in income. It's all His and He can remove your ability to "exchange" anything for income in a heart beat. Visit a nursing home and notice the under 40s or stroll through a cemetery if you don't believe me.
Of course, what this has to do with the OT command for the Israelites to tithe is a bit beyond me....
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 3:08:30 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6352
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
Of course, what this has to do with the OT command for the Israelites to tithe is a bit beyond me....
Why should that surprise anyone?
FWIW, I dunno either, but I wasn't the one that brought it up. I just responded. I notice you had nothing to say to the one that confused you.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 3:48:24 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1200
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
Of course, what this has to do with the OT command for the Israelites to tithe is a bit beyond me....
Why should that surprise anyone?
FWIW, I dunno either, but I wasn't the one that brought it up. I just responded. I notice you had nothing to say to the one that confused you.
Many nowadays tout experience as rationale for doctrine. We abide in the apostles’ doctrine.
As I have said before, you won’t find tithing as an apostolic command, and nowhere is the church ever commanded to tithe.
The temple veil was ripped in two from top to bottom upon Christ’s finished work on the cross.
His followers are under liberty and grace - not the law.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 4:28:11 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6352
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Many nowadays tout experience as rationale for doctrine.
Not me.
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
We abide in the apostles’ doctrine.
As I have said before, you won’t find tithing as an apostolic command, and nowhere is the church ever commanded to tithe.
Show me where Jesus or the Apostles forbid or condemned the practice by limiting grateful worship to just lips.
Not everything in the OT is Mosaic Law.
quote:
His followers are under liberty and grace - not the law.
I agree. So why do you live only by Apostle's commands? That is legalism.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 4:38:06 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1200
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Show me where Jesus or the Apostles forbid or condemned the practice by limiting grateful worship to just lips.
You must be confusing me with another poster...
Giving is taught in the NT, just not tithing.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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