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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 5/30/2008 11:17:12 PM
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lmwal931
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in the old testament there is much symbolism. i had a vision that showed me a purgatory type situation. JESUS said that it was the FATHER'S will that none be lost. i just know that GOD'S love is eternal. also there are 2 things i do that you have to be careful with. a interpretation of scripture should fit the picture. a verse draws a picture. e.g. in john 1 JESUS says i saw you under the fig tree. JESUS could be talking about a literal fig tree or a symbolic fig tree. the disciples response did not fit the picture for a literal fig tree. the symbolism of the fig tree is life. we were all born under the fig tree. my essays are more explainatory but i can't even then satisfy every critic. i hope my observations get you to think for yourself. GOD is the author of logic and science.
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 5/31/2008 1:41:26 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1723
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
i had a vision that showed me a purgatory type situation
OK, see, when anyone bases their beliefs on something as subjective as a vision, I have to become suspect. This is especially true when that vision seems to contradict Scripture, and nothing in Scripture even hints at purgatory to me. Hell is spoken of as being an eternal place, just as heaven is. Any vision that contradicts Scripture is a false vision.
quote:
i just know that GOD'S love is eternal
And so is God's wrath. We cannot, indeed must not, pick and choose which parts of God we like, and throw the rest by the wayside. To even attempt such is a grave error indeed.
quote:
in john 1 JESUS says i saw you under the fig tree. JESUS could be talking about a literal fig tree or a symbolic fig tree. the disciples response did not fit the picture for a literal fig tree.
I think his response most certainly does. Nathanael was most likely sitting under a literal fig tree when Philip approached him, so when Jesus told him about where he had been sitting without any simple human way of knowing, it showed Nathanael that Jesus had exercised the divine power of knowledge.
quote:
the symbolism of the fig tree is life. we were all born under the fig tree.
See, in my mind, this completely destroys the power of Christ's miraculous declaration to Nathanael. If everyone is "born under a fig tree," then Jesus is not saying anything special at all - He is just using an easy word-play. How would such a word-play inspire Nathanael to declare that Jesus is the Son of God and King of Israel? To me, that makes no sense.
quote:
GOD is the author of logic and science.
Now that, I agree with. Not sure how it fits in with the rest of your post, but hey, I agree with it.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 5/31/2008 10:25:51 AM
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ta_mosquito
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Please take the discussion about purgatory, universal salvation, etc. to a new thread as it's off topic here.
Thanks!
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Forums Moderator
Please do not reply to this message within the forums or chat.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 6/1/2008 11:20:14 PM
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lmwal931
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nathanael knew that nobody saw him as he was born. i.e. nobody but GOD. that's why he said "you are the SON of GOD.
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 6/1/2008 11:41:15 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
nathanael knew that nobody saw him as he was born. i.e. nobody but GOD. that's why he said "you are the SON of GOD.
Well, God, and the midwife, and his mother, and anyone else there to help with the birth. And again, everyone is born. I fail to see any sort of miracle with your interpretation.
But regardless - purgatory, universal salvation, hell, etc., does not impact whether or not the devil is really evil or not. Hell is not Satan's domain - the earth is, until Christ's return. Satan fears hell just as much (if not more so) as we do, because he probably has a better idea of what hell will be like than we do.
That's always been something I've wondered about. Satan is obviously familiar with Scripture, and he should know that God will accomplish His purposes - so why does he bother continuing to try and thwart God's plans? Is he merely trying to cause as much trouble as possible, and steal as much glory for himself, or does he really believe he has something up his sleeve that will catch God off guard? Either way, his plans and his actions clearly demonstrate that he is the most singularly evil being in creation.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 6/1/2008 11:57:01 PM
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bob97
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From: Kansas
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quote:
so why does he bother continuing to try and thwart God's plans?
I guess a guy's just gotta give it his best shot but I don't like his odds. 
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 7/12/2008 11:12:44 PM
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lmwal931
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JESUS told the thieves on the cross that they would be in paradise. note he didn't say heaven. paradise and purgatory are apparently the same. from now on i'll use paradise in explaining this vision. also supporting this idea of paradise is that bible states "GOD'S will is that none be lost". paradise is a 2nd chance.
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 7/12/2008 11:50:13 PM
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19ramman85
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Paradise = Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham
Purgatory = God not sure if you are good enough for Heaven or bad enough for Hell. But maybe if your family/friends/neighbors/Church pray and give xtra money- maybe ........
Gehanna (sp), or Hell - The rich man
These are, from what I have been lead to believe by BOTH Catholicism, and Free methodist teaching.
And yes- Satan rules the earth (or, at least God lets him think that anyways!, lol)
-charles
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 7/16/2008 4:28:58 PM
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mcleod
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This story I have got to tell about and it is true. My Great Grandmother was a devoted Republican and very much into politics, when see was alive. In fact was the head person of the Republican party for Marshall County in Indiana. In the fifties and sixties she held this post. Well to the story she would almost everyday go into a restruant called the Candy Kitchen in Argos, IN.. The owner of the place was a devoted Democrat and as bad as my Great Grandmother was Republican. So- after a great debate one day the owner asked my Great Grandmother this question." If satan ran on the Repulican party ticket for President of the United States would you vote for him". She thought for a moment then said "well there is little good in everybody". Which she was also devoted Assemble of God person. But I believe satan has no good plans for those who follow God.
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 7/30/2008 10:54:07 PM
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LJC_Grace
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Rasul,
As a dead child do you think one night research is enough for you to know about the true living God and accuse Him of ¡¥ordering¡¦ angels to bow down to man (human beings)? If you are the child of the living God, you don¡¦t need a night to research about satan but 1 minute should suffice. Rasul, try to reach the sky! Raise your hand and try to touch it! Can you touch it? You can¡¦t even imagine of raising up your hands to touch the sky, isn¡¦t it? The Creator of heaven and earth used His immeasurable Wisdom, Knowledge and understanding to create them. The One and only God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob (His name) stretched out the SKY USING HIS UNDERSTANDING. How did you dare accuse God of ¡¥ordering¡¦ angels to bow down before man?
You can¡¦t even imagine touching the sky, how on earth did you rely on the dead research to accuse God? Look around you and wake up! If God created satan ¡¥the angel of great beauty¡¦ IMAGINE HOW UNIMAGINABLY AND IMMEASURABLY BEAUTIFUL IS THE CREATOR? satan is the highest ranking angel but He is not God! Engrave that in your mind and heart! No being or creation of God is perfect in goodness. Only GOD THE ALMIGHTY IS GOOD. Please don¡¦t use the word perfect for satan.
Read a Christian bible not a catholic bible to learn the truth of God. King James Version New Century Version. A Christian is a follower of Christ who do not worship statues/idols which is a dust when destroyed. When you die, you return to dust. When idols/statutes in the catholic churches destroyed, they are only dust. A dust is following another dust¡¦s teaching for research. This is not condemnation Rasul but the depth of Wisdom.
In the bible from Genesis to Revelation there is no scripture says God ordered angels to bow before man. God DID NOT ORDER ANGELS TO BOW BEFORE MAN! BUT satan REFUSED TO BOW BEFORE GOD because he wanted to be greater than God. None of us will ever bow before angels, animals, statues/idols, any being in heaven, on earth or under the earth nor angels of God will ever bow before man, animals, statues/idols, any being in heaven, on earth or under the earth.
The Son of God, Lord Jesus Christ Himself in everything did not think that being equal with God was something to be used for His own benefit. But He gave up His place with God and made himself nothing. He was born as a man and became like a servant. And when He was living as a man He humbled Himself and was fully obedient to God, even when that caused His death-death on a cross. So God raised Him to the Highest place. God made His name greater than every other name. So that EVERY KNEE WILL BOW TO THE NAME OF JESUS. Everyone and everything in heaven, on earth and under the earth. And everyone will confess that Lord Jesus Christ is Lord and bring glory to God the Father. Phillipian 2:6-11
God loves you and us so much Rasul. Use your simple common sense. Use God given wisdom. I forgot you are still dead. Unless you are born-again, you will not have common sense to the truth nor wisdom to differentiate the good fruit and the bad fruit. Come to Lord Jesus and be baptized in the name of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. You shall be born-again to see the truth of life.
Honestly look at yourself now, if satan has blinded you from simple understanding of all of the above that I have written, can you imagine how Adam & Eve was deceived by the snake (satan) to eat the fruit that was prevented by God. The first sin of man was caused by satan. The rest of the children of Abraham came after Adam & Eve. The fallen of man was caused by satan. The fallen of satan was caused by his own greediness and pride to be greater than God.
„X The first sin of man was caused by satan
„X The fallen of man was caused by satan
„X The fallen of satan was caused by satan himself
„X The weeds in God¡¦s children were planted by satan to cause them to sin
As you mentioned in your forum, ¡¥the sewage called humanity¡¦ condemning Abraham¡¦s children is not wise at all. After the fall of Adam & Eve, God¡¦s children inherited the weeds that was planted by the devil. Only at the end of the age (harvest time) will the weeds be pulled up and burned in the fire. Sins of the world that were committed by God¡¦s children are caused by the weeds planted in them by the devil/satan.
Do you still want to ask ¡¥What did Lucifer do wrong or is Lucifer really evil? satan wants to be god.
Define satan: money, power, sex, snake, beauty, idol, fame, flesh, nakedness, pain, suffering, etc¡K is satan. Would you like me to elaborate more of how he is causing God¡¦s children blindness to sin? Pornography, children¡¦s sexual abuse, children out of wedlock, killing, worshipping satan, man-made statues, animals, sun, moon, the dead, practicing witchcraft, cursing God, condemning God, judging God, selling flesh,¡Kso much more¡Ka website won¡¦t be enough Rasul.
Don¡¦t concentrate on evil. Don¡¦t research on satan who wants to be god to rule you and the world. You don¡¦t need research to know about satan. Open your eyes, ears, mind and understanding, the evil is all around you. Concentrate on God, only God is good. He will give you all the Wisdom, knowledge and understanding. You need unceasing prayer to find the truth. Search for Him with all your heart and you will find Him. He is the truth and life. He is Lord Jesus Christ.
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 7/30/2008 11:03:12 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11497
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Welcome, LJC_Grace! Good post. I have one little problem:
quote:
Define satan: money, power, sex, snake, beauty, idol, fame, flesh, nakedness, pain, suffering, etc¡K is satan.
I assume you do NOT mean that sex within marriage is sinful/satan, nor beauty (since God made things beautiful) but the perversion and idolization of beauty.
_____________________________
Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 8/1/2008 1:03:11 PM
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DaveW
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Wow this is a hard thread to follow. (either that or I am even more tired than I think I am)
I had a comment for the OP but it has taken so many turns that it seems somewhat OT at this point.
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Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 9/7/2008 12:52:40 PM
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jdeats
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The story of Lucifer and the other angels having to bow before man comes from an ancient text "The Life of Adam & Eve" and not the Bible. The modern day Christian Holy Bible consist of the Old Testament and New Testament. Many of the books in the Old Testament are also found in the Jewish Torah... The collective books we have today that constitute the Holy Bible are considered the Biblical Cannon. That is, they are the books the church agreed could be authenticated as inspired words of God, sorted from many ancient text.
The Life of Adam & Eve is one of the ancient text left out of the Biblical Cannon and is accepted by both Christian and Jewish scholars to be a work of Jewish religious literature (fiction) written between 200 BC and 200 AD, there are also similarities in this story and the creation account from the Qur'an (specifically the part about Lucifer and the angels having the bow before man).
The Holy Bible is clear that we (mankind) are above the angels. 1 Corinthians 6:3 says "Do you not know that we will judge angels?", but I am not aware of any verses that distinguish exactly when Lucifer and the other rebelling angels were cast out. Lucifer tried to position himself above God... and he had followers...
While the Life of Adam & Ever story is not part of the Bible, and it's origin can not be authenticated it's truth seems to have little impact on the outcome. The point is Lucifer disobey God. He's also the father of lies. In the translations I've read, none of the ancient text proposition Lucifer as being in love with God and dealing with conflict of worshiping man in the same respect as they would worship God. Think about military rank. Just because a low-ranking officer salutes a Staff Sergent doesn't mean they hold the same respect for the Staff Sergent as they would a General.
Reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_of_Adam_and_Eve
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 9/9/2008 8:27:36 PM
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DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 7729
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lmwal931
satan, lucifer, etc, is us.
Um, false. I was not casted out of heaven and marked with an eventual eternal path of fiery hell and suffering.
This is completely untheological.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LJC_Grace
Define satan: money, sex, beauty, nakedness is satan..
Um, false... again.
Money in and of itself is not evil. God provides money to us to give back to Him, to support our spouses, to support ourselves; to live, essentially. The love of money IS evil, however, but saying money is evil is confusing two different concepts.
Sex is the most beautiful thing on earth. It is absolutely NOT a gift from satan. That is complete and utter garbage. It is, however, God's gift between married individuals. In marriage, sex is the most beautiful expression of love between the two God united into one flesh. He designed it for pleasure and intimacy in marriage. Satan has NOTHING to do with this blessing.
Beauty is not a sin. Boasting about such beauty with pride and arrogance, however, is a sin.
Nakedness is not a sin. If this were the case, we would be sinning every time we used the shower or at conception. Prostituting nakedness for money, lust, and sexual immorality is a sin.
None of the things which I quoted from your post are a "gift" or "blessing" from satan or "evil". All things come from God, humans perverted those things into sin. It doesn't make what God created a sin, it makes the corruption a sin.
quote:
RE: Lucifer... is he really evil?
Is the grass really green?
_____________________________
The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 9/10/2008 12:30:48 AM
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Leadership
Posts: 20
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rasul
Yesterday night I did some research on Lucifer (some call him Satan) and I was surprised at what I found. I have some questions.
Lucifer was an angel, the highest ranking of the angels of God. Lucifer loved and was totally devoted to God and God loved him.
Question 1. Was Lucifer a perfect being, an angel, before his fall?
Lucifer means the "light bringer" or the "morning star". An angel of great beauty.
Question 2. Would it be true to conclude the ideas that Lucifer is half beast and half man, a pan-like looking creature with cloven hooves and horns is just a myth created by the Catholic Church. In fact Lucifer retains his beauty as a former angel of heaven?
The problems between Lucifer and God arose when after God created man (Adam) he declared man his greatest creation. God ordered that all his angels bow down before man. Lucifer and many angels who as creatures of fire were very upset about having to bow down before man, a creature of clay.
Question 3. Look at all the people in our prisons, all the wars. Walk down your local town or city high street and see the sewage called humanity there. Look at Hitler, Saddam Hussein and Stalin. Why should angels have to bow down before mankind that produces this sort of rubbish?
Lucifer and a third of the angels rebelled at the idea of having to bow down before man. There was a great war in heaven and Lucifer was defeated.
Question 4. Lucifer totally loved God but he and other angels were being asked to love something other than God. Lucifer felt that he could only totally love one source, that was God, there was not room for his love of God to include man. A third of the angels agreed with Lucifer. Was God not being unreasonable here to expect his angels to split their love for him to include man as well?
When Lucifer was defeated he and other angel rebels were cast down to earth from heaven. Religious sources indicate that Lucifer and the other fallen angels exist upon either earth or in the air.
Question 5. If the fallen angels exist on earth or in the air would it be correct to say that hell does not exist, a creation of the Catholic Church?
When Lucifer fell to earth it is understandable that he was not happy with mankind who was the cause of his fall. Lucifer does not seem to me to have acted unreasonably, nor does he come over as having done anything wrong.
Question 6. What exactly did Lucifer do wrong?
Question 7. Is Lucifer really evil?
The Bible Says: in (Isaiah 14:12) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer son of the morning! Name Change (Luke 10:18) beheld Satan as lighting fall from heaven. God did not make Satan-He created a perfect angel (Ephesians 3:9) Lucifer was a "covering" cherub and once was one of the great angels that stands on the right and left side of God's throne (Psalm 99:1) He was highly exalted, respected, and cherished angel. His beauty was flawless and is brightness was breathtaking. Scripture also shows his wisdom and ability were unmatched.(Ezekiel 28:12-13).
The Bible Says: that pride discontent, and self-exaltation arose in his heart. Lucifer became jealous of God's supreme power. He wanted to somehow unseat God and then demand that all worship him. (Isaiah 14:13-14)
The Bible Says: That Satan is the originator of all sin, He was the first to go against God's Kingdom. (1 John 3:8)
The Bible Says: That there was a great battle in heaven Michael and his angels fought against the dragon his angels (Lucifer had support of one-third of the angels). And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil, and satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him to there new home earth. (Revelation 12:7-9) satan hates all mankind, who were created in God's image. satan cannot touch God so he directs his wrath against God's people to destroy them. This inturn hurts God. for the loss of his creation.
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 9/14/2008 3:22:25 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 1269
Joined: 10/25/2005
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Has anyone emailed Rasul?
Has anyone received a response?
Methinks he posted here and in standard instant-gratification behavior turned back to his own devices after he received 1 reply.
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"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 9/14/2008 3:58:50 PM
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eschatologist
Posts: 66
Joined: 1/6/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rasul
Yesterday night I did some research on Lucifer (some call him Satan) and I was surprised at what I found. I have some questions.
Lucifer was an angel, the highest ranking of the angels of God. Lucifer loved and was totally devoted to God and God loved him.
Question 1. Was Lucifer a perfect being, an angel, before his fall?
Lucifer means the "light bringer" or the "morning star". An angel of great beauty.
Question 2. Would it be true to conclude the ideas that Lucifer is half beast and half man, a pan-like looking creature with cloven hooves and horns is just a myth created by the Catholic Church. In fact Lucifer retains his beauty as a former angel of heaven?
The problems between Lucifer and God arose when after God created man (Adam) he declared man his greatest creation. God ordered that all his angels bow down before man. Lucifer and many angels who as creatures of fire were very upset about having to bow down before man, a creature of clay.
Question 3. Look at all the people in our prisons, all the wars. Walk down your local town or city high street and see the sewage called humanity there. Look at Hitler, Saddam Hussein and Stalin. Why should angels have to bow down before mankind that produces this sort of rubbish?
Lucifer and a third of the angels rebelled at the idea of having to bow down before man. There was a great war in heaven and Lucifer was defeated.
Question 4. Lucifer totally loved God but he and other angels were being asked to love something other than God. Lucifer felt that he could only totally love one source, that was God, there was not room for his love of God to include man. A third of the angels agreed with Lucifer. Was God not being unreasonable here to expect his angels to split their love for him to include man as well?
When Lucifer was defeated he and other angel rebels were cast down to earth from heaven. Religious sources indicate that Lucifer and the other fallen angels exist upon either earth or in the air.
Question 5. If the fallen angels exist on earth or in the air would it be correct to say that hell does not exist, a creation of the Catholic Church?
When Lucifer fell to earth it is understandable that he was not happy with mankind who was the cause of his fall. Lucifer does not seem to me to have acted unreasonably, nor does he come over as having done anything wrong.
Question 6. What exactly did Lucifer do wrong?
Question 7. Is Lucifer really evil?
Where did you study up on Satan? Was it a book of the dead? Maybe it was a witchcraft book written by witches? Or maybe it was a Satanists book written by Satanists and devil worshippers? The kind of things that you wrote here are the kinds of things that they teach. If you would read your bible you would know the truth and find the answers to your questions. Or maybe your questions aren't sincere but are there to sow division and discord amongst the brethren. Jesus said, "If ye continue in my word then are ye my disciples indeed, and ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free." The best way to know the truth about these things is to read the words of Jesus in the bible. Not the words of people who, themselves, are in rebellion against God and are probably Satan worshippers. (I thought Satanism was forbidden in these forums?)
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 9/16/2008 7:22:39 PM
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fallenstar
Posts: 129
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Honestly, I don't think anything could be so evil "just because". There has to be somthing that ruined them, somthing that made them want to rebel. If God is love, why would Satan rebel against that? Why would anyone? I still think angles are higher than us, and if they ARE perfect, they would'nt rebel against God. But I see where you are coming from.
There is a lot of false information floating around about biblical stories. Just believe in what the Bible says and just that.
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 9/16/2008 7:24:40 PM
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fallenstar
Posts: 129
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Rasul-
Wow. You might want to read up on world religons before you say who believes in what.
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 9/16/2008 7:44:50 PM
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LoyalGypsy
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Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Has anyone emailed Rasul?
Why, so he/she can get our email?
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 9/16/2008 8:02:16 PM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 9/16/2008 7:59:50 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 460
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
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Rasul and Leadership,
Where did you get this stuff from?
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 9/22/2008 8:18:52 PM
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Juda7
Posts: 19
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Ugh...yes he is.
_____________________________
I am so AGAINST the "New Apostolic Reformation" heresy!
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 9/24/2008 8:53:34 PM
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lmwal931
Posts: 93
Joined: 4/16/2005
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i am a very simple minded person. i think we make scripture a bit complicated. i reject this idea of perpetual torture. GOD loves everybody. HIS will is that none be lost. and some seem to delight in this idea of torture. i bet you think that is JESUS IS ON THE wHITE horse in rev. 19:12 i told the LORD REcently that nobody believes what i say. HE said "rattle their cages".
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