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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 5/4/2008 7:30:07 AM
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rlj
Posts: 1832
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
I linked to previously has Bob Jones stateing that everything in KC was started by mothering angel Emma.
quote:
This angel Emma bothers me. When angels start naming themselves it smacks of spirit guides and new age stuff.
This reminds me of this:
quote:
19 Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'
"One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
22 " 'By what means?' the LORD asked.
" 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
" 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'
23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."
That is from 1 Kings 22.
< Message edited by rlj -- 5/4/2008 7:38:27 AM >
_____________________________
-Roger
1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 5/4/2008 11:30:09 AM
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StephK
Posts: 1761
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: RatherDashing
In an attempt to add conversation to this bashfest:
If Bentley is so bad, why would God bother showing up and touching so many lives during these conferences?
I agree with colliefan on the emotionalism, something which might give a 20-minute placebo "healing". Could God in His mercy touch somebody there despite the false hype? Yes. But one may read the daily updates again while considering how a false revival is built on hype and see how thin the "miracles" are.
Please drop something in the chicken bucket on the way out. Thank you.
It sounds like a modern day Elmer Gantry.
_____________________________
Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 5/4/2008 12:58:56 PM
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csl7037
Posts: 886
Joined: 3/24/2008
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Oh, guys, we're about an hour from Lakeland and a friend asked us at church this morning if we wanted to go to this with them tonight! I actually had not heard of this and only happened upon this thread now.
I was raised in the Word of Faith stuff and I am completely nauseous looking over some of the links you guys have provided. My church is in a weird place because God is wanting to move and some people are running to this type of thing. To my pastor's credit, he's being very cautious and prudent which is really annoying some people - like my friend going to this revival. I need to talk to my Pastor about this. He's been doing a lot of research on Word of Faith so I feel like he's trying to be sure we're remaining grounded. He keeps coming to me, knowing I was raised in some pretty off the wall stuff and I've been very leery of some things that have come up in our own church, and he'll tell me about the latest thing he's read or found about how deeply twisted some of this is! My friend, I know, is trying hard to find his place in "ministry"; how can I go to my Pastor? I feel like, as the spiritual authority, he needs to be aware of what my friend is falling into! What a mess.
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 5/4/2008 1:24:36 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1166
Joined: 7/22/2005
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Hello csl7037:
I truly praise God for your discernment!! Clearly you are not buying into this false signs and wonders mess - complete with a greedy false prophet, to boot - and that is such good news. I'm also very glad to hear that your pastor is researching what's going on out there and trying to maintain solid ground within your church. God bless him.
quote:
My friend, I know, is trying hard to find his place in "ministry"; how can I go to my Pastor? I feel like, as the spiritual authority, he needs to be aware of what my friend is falling into! What a mess.
Your concern is very real. If your friend is looking for a place in ministry yet is running to these types of 'revivals', he would not be a healthy addition to the church ministry staff and might push these things in the church.
Just use the Biblical guidelines and you'll do fine. First I would go to your friend one on one with all of the facts comparing what Todd Bentley and company are teaching and practicing and compare it with scripture. If he won't listen, I would approach pastor and elders immediately with this and hopefully together you can all talk some sense into your friend.
May God bless and protect you, your church, and your friend!
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 5/4/2008 1:34:00 PM
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csl7037
Posts: 886
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Your concern is very real. If your friend is looking for a place in ministry yet is running to these types of 'revivals', he would not be a healthy addition to the church ministry staff and might push these things in the church.
Just use the Biblical guidelines and you'll do fine. First I would go to your friend one on one with all of the facts comparing what Todd Bentley and company are teaching and practicing and compare it with scripture. If he won't listen, I would approach pastor and elders immediately with this and hopefully together you can all talk some sense into your friend.
May God bless and protect you, your church, and your friend!
OK, I need help. My friend is definitely pushing these things within the church and trying to bend the Pastor's ear. He means well, for sure. He's very young (spiritually and physically) and all this is new to him and it sounds and feels so cool!! I know that all too well. I believe in signs and wonders, healing, tongues, the whole bit. But I also know all too well how greedy and misguided and gullable people can be and how dangerous it is. Being a believer, even to see God do miraculous things, doesn't require checking your brain and all common sense at the door!
He's in our very small home "cell group" and we meet on Tuesday. I'm sure he'll be raving about this meeting tonight. I've looked at the website (and of course it all sounds well and good) and a few of the links here but I need good solid info!! Can anyone help me? The "Angel Emma" bit is a great start - I mean, hello!! There's plenty of power, annointing, healing in the Bible that it really creeps me out when people start making stuff up!
We've been having these discussions for months. He's not the only one toying with these things right now. I truely believe God wants to use this friend of mine but his lack of discernment (and maturity), I'm afraid, is going to lead him down a really long road in a wrong direction. I know he just thinks I'm jaded and a wet blanket. To some extent, he may be right.
< Message edited by csl7037 -- 5/4/2008 1:41:34 PM >
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 5/4/2008 1:58:06 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2470
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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Just a question to those who think this stuff in Lakeland is real: what lasting good came from Brownsville? Don't get me wrong, I long for an authentic revival, but this just seems to be a show. The stuff about gold teeth gives me the willies. Why gold teeth? Why not restored to their original condidtion?
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 5/4/2008 2:05:50 PM
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csl7037
Posts: 886
Joined: 3/24/2008
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What good comes from any of it, colliefan? I've been around this stuff my whole life. The people who get lathered up in this emotion and get "healed" don't seem to stick around or stick with it. Think about the truly godly people you've met in your life, they don't fall into this stuff. Doesn't it make more sense that God wants us to walk with Him and let Him be Him - can He heal? YES! But when did Jesus make an absolute spectacle of Himself and then pass the plate? But people would rather chase after the bright lights and "gold dust" of charlatains. It's just sad.
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 5/4/2008 2:39:53 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2007
Joined: 5/16/2005
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I quote this from someone I personally know. Him and I have been going back and forth concerning Todd Bentley:
quote:
One time in a dream I sat down with Todd at a fancy restaurant. Food was all of a sudden before us. It was manna and it was wet. I ate some and it was awkward. This manna came from inside our spirits where the Holy Ghost is. This manna is the Bread of Life, Jesus Christ. It's just one of the several dreams that I have had where the Holy Ghost has manifested a representation of Todd in my dreams where we were doing exploits for God. Maybe it really was Todd and our spirits met up in the spirit world, I don't know. What I do know is that nobody has 100% right theology. The Holy Ghost is 100% though and I support what He is doing though Todd right now. Don't miss out by succumbing to the critical spirit that lingers over this school and who so many people give into it thus shunning themselves from the things of God.
Emphasis added. . .
This type of thought scares me so much. But it doesn't seem to matter what one says, they will defend their false teachers tooth and nail.
I have been called a heretic, a blasphemer, not of the "Kingdom Level," listener of demons, not truly a Christian, without the Spirit's dwelling, hell-bound, and such, all for trying to defend biblical truth.
I still can't figure out how when I judge one's teachings, those who support this person can judge my salvation. I don't get it.
< Message edited by 1love1God1way -- 5/4/2008 2:47:51 PM >
_____________________________
-Ben-
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 5/4/2008 3:42:46 PM
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Anisavta
Posts: 707
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Northern CA
Status: offline
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quote:
I have been called a heretic, a blasphemer, not of the "Kingdom Level," listener of demons, not truly a Christian, without the Spirit's dwelling, hell-bound, and such, all for trying to defend biblical truth.
I still can't figure out how when I judge one's teachings, those who support this person can judge my salvation. I don't get it.
Because they don't understand what the "Kingdom" is all about. They can't grasp the fact that the Kingdom of G~d is about repentance - ie turning around and following G~d instead of ones own mind. To them it is "what can G~d do for me". As I've said before and will say again and again - if you don't know the Word of G~d - Genesis to Revelation it is so easy for the enemy to throw in lies. They sound so good but are so off base when put up against the Word. The way a person in banks are trained to detect counterfit is to study the real thing. When you know the "Real Thing" the counterfit is easy to detect.
_____________________________
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!
B'rachot,
Marsha
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 5/4/2008 5:27:39 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1166
Joined: 7/22/2005
Status: offline
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Hi csl7037:
quote:
I'm sure he'll be raving about this meeting tonight. I've looked at the website (and of course it all sounds well and good) and a few of the links here but I need good solid info!! Can anyone help me? The "Angel Emma" bit is a great start - I mean, hello!!
I found this series of articles by Todd Bentley that explains the 'spirit guide' Emma here: LINK
I've never seen THIS SITE before so I can't say how accurate it is, but they feature many articles on Bentley. As always, you should check out what they're saying for yourself and confirm it, but these could be a decent starting point in trying to pinpoint what Bentley is claiming and doing. If the articles are worth anything, they should reference exactly where they are getting their information from, and that information should be from Bentley himself.
The florida revival reports that have been linked and commented here also on have enough in them that are just plain wrong and contrary to scripture. The fact that 'Todd the prophet' has claimed that God wants him to receive a million dollars should give even the most immature Christian serious food for thought. The various 'miracles' that are touted, such as gold teeth and other wild but unsubstantiated claims, are another clue.
Go to Todd Bentley's site [Fresh Fire, covered in post #3] and look at his teachings. You can also find his bogus prophecies and teachings on the Elijah List. There's a search option under 'Prophecy', and he mentions another angel named 'Wind of change' and other various angels. I remember researching Todd Bentley awhile back and it took me less than a minute of reading his material to see through the charade.
I hope this helps.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 5/4/2008 5:40:48 PM >
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 5/4/2008 6:36:04 PM
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csl7037
Posts: 886
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anisavta
Because they don't understand what the "Kingdom" is all about. They can't grasp the fact that the Kingdom of G~d is about repentance - ie turning around and following G~d instead of ones own mind. To them it is "what can G~d do for me". As I've said before and will say again and again - if you don't know the Word of G~d - Genesis to Revelation it is so easy for the enemy to throw in lies. They sound so good but are so off base when put up against the Word. The way a person in banks are trained to detect counterfit is to study the real thing. When you know the "Real Thing" the counterfit is easy to detect.
But the Kingdom is such a buzzword right now! It would be really hard to convince these guys they don't understand the Kingdom - they think they've got a lock and a new revelation on it and you're just "missing it".
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 5/4/2008 7:16:31 PM
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Anisavta
Posts: 707
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Northern CA
Status: offline
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To which it may sound harsh but in that case we shake the dust from our feet and return our blessing and having nothing to do with them.
It's time to stand up and rightly divide by the Word of G~d and pray that they see the errors of their ways. The church at least here in America is so afraid of offending that she is willing to close a blind eye to what the enemy is doing.
_____________________________
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!
B'rachot,
Marsha
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 5/4/2008 7:31:45 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1832
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: online
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quote:
This type of thought scares me so much. But it doesn't seem to matter what one says, they will defend their false teachers tooth and nail.
I have been called a heretic, a blasphemer, not of the "Kingdom Level," listener of demons, not truly a Christian, without the Spirit's dwelling, hell-bound, and such, all for trying to defend biblical truth.
To the christians who you point this out to- do you love them and fellowship with them? Are these people who you would lay your life down for and people whom you esteem as better than yourself? If the answer is yes then good. If the answer is no then that is probably part of the problem. I'm not trying to rebuke you but christians do have a tendency to lead each other into some kind of correction long before they'll try to establish any kind of relationship even though we are brothers and sisters in Christ. That is the most important thing and everything we are as christians in how we treat each other needs to come out from that. I'm not saying no one should ever point anything out but when there is fellowship and relationship then you can come at it with the mentality of a friend or brother.
Conversely the responses that you have been greeted with are even more uncalled for.
quote:
This healing outpouring will take us into the largest arenas and stadiums across America and internationally.
For those in the area, are there any articles in the local newspapers about the "healings"? One can't just have healings and miracles at this level without attracting some kind of media attention.
LW9 that link about the Spirit Guide terrified me.
_____________________________
-Roger
1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 5/4/2008 7:47:23 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2007
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
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rlj,
I may not always be as patient as I should be, but I have never put them down. I just speak truth. I don't sugarcoat it, but I don't do it in arrogance either.
_____________________________
-Ben-
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 5/4/2008 8:09:26 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2470
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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quote:
SOW A SEED INTO THIS REVIVAL FOR YOUR MIRACLE. Many of you have been experiencing tremendous blessings from God while reading these reports and watching the webcast. Go to our website www.ignitedchurch.com and click on the “donate” button and sow into revival.
The truth comes out..if God can make some gold teeth, why can't he make some gold coins for them to cash in and pay for the crusade?
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 5/4/2008 9:01:05 PM
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csl7037
Posts: 886
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: online
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Dh and I are watching/listening to the podcast. He hasn't said anything off the wall, really - he hasn't said anything at all!!! To me, actually, he sounds sincere enough. He either is or he's just really good. But why can't the Bible be enough? Why can't God be enough? Why do people chase after such nonsense. Why add to the Bible (to make a buck?)? I guess desperate people flock to this. But God can (and does) heal without the circus side show! But it's not just desperation - my friend isn't there tonight looking for healing - he's looking for signs and wonders. I don't get it. I guess I should be more patient because I've been there.
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 5/4/2008 9:29:41 PM
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csl7037
Posts: 886
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: online
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OK, anybody else watching this? Do people in/from Scotland really run around in kilts? Is that guy for real? Just seems like a bit of overkill there.
I'm sorry, where are the Gideons? Do none of these people own a Bible?
< Message edited by csl7037 -- 5/4/2008 9:46:29 PM >
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 5/4/2008 10:04:29 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2470
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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I turned it on briefly but had to switch away; all those handicaped people looking for "their miracle." The guy hasn't reached the ranks of Benny Hinn yet but he sure is trying to get there.
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 5/5/2008 12:52:26 AM
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Anisavta
Posts: 707
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Northern CA
Status: offline
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I just pulled up a few video clips of Todd and what I see is a man who is a little too full of himself and lost sight of who G~d really is.
In my years as a believer and thankfully I have walked with Messiah for many years I have seen a lot of the good the bad and the ugly and this guy is just another one of those who got lost in the "glory".
I have been pushed over under the guise of the Power and I have been touched by the Holy Spirit in a sweet gentle way that I could not stay on my feet no matter how much I tried. I have had an experience where my glasses were snatched from my face and told that I was healed. And the miracle was I spent the whole summer without my glasses driving in Los Angeles being legally blind and did not crash my car. This was in the 70s at the height of the Jesus Movement when I was in my 20s. And no I did not get healed. I am still legally blind w/out my glasses, but I have no problem with that. I can see perfectly fine with my specks. And I have felt the Power of Yeshua touching my body and healing me as I was prayed for by my friends very quietly.
So when I see this sort of blasphemous behaviour coming from a believer I get angry because they are causing more damage to the cause of Messiah. And I am frightened for someone like that because they will be judged strongly.
And although I will gently try to convince others who are being led astray with love and compassion, I have no love loss for someone who leads others away. I guess my prophet heart gets a little rialed up.
_____________________________
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!
B'rachot,
Marsha
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 5/5/2008 5:32:16 AM
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DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 9428
Joined: 6/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anisavta
quote:
If Bentley is so bad, why would God bother showing up and touching so many lives during these conferences?
How do we know it is really G~d?
Are there any other spirits capable of providing healing? People can thrive on emotionalism, yes, but how does emotionalism reflect medical reports of how cancer magically disappeared?
_____________________________
Cynicism is an unpleasant way of saying the truth.
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 5/5/2008 5:40:20 AM
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csl7037
Posts: 886
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RatherDashing
Are there any other spirits capable of providing healing? People can thrive on emotionalism, yes, but how does emotionalism reflect medical reports of how cancer magically disappeared?
Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 5/5/2008 8:05:25 AM
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earthless
Posts: 5300
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RatherDashing
quote:
ORIGINAL: Anisavta
quote:
If Bentley is so bad, why would God bother showing up and touching so many lives during these conferences?
How do we know it is really G~d?
Are there any other spirits capable of providing healing? People can thrive on emotionalism, yes, but how does emotionalism reflect medical reports of how cancer magically disappeared?
Yes, demonic spirits. Scripture says Satan can perform false signs and wonders, etc..
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 5/5/2008 10:11:43 AM
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wintery
Posts: 1267
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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"Deamons manifest live on GodTV" (sic, spelling of demons as is on the site)
When looking at the "miracles, signs, wonders" that are supposed to be at this event, consider things like this: "Seven people responded to a word of knowledge of sciatic nerve damage…ALL SEVEN BEND OVER WITHOUT PAIN!!!" which proves absolutely nothing. Read about the problems associated with the sciatic nerve at the link below and see what I mean.
http://www.spine-health.com/Conditions/Sciatica/Sciatic-Nerve/Sciatica-And-The-Sciatic-Nerve.htmlThe sciatic nerve supplies sensation and strength to the leg as well as the reflexes of the leg. It connects the spinal cord with the outside of the thigh, the hamstring muscles in the back of the thighs, and muscles in the lower leg and feet. As such, when the sciatic nerve is impaired it can lead to muscle weakness in the leg and/or, numbness or tingling.
And then consider this "jewel": "A young lady with 2 plates and 22 screws in her ankle… SHE’S RUNNING… "
Folks I've had a plate and screws in my ankle for over twelve years and I can run just fine and I always have.
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 5/5/2008 10:48:46 AM
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lw9
Posts: 1166
Joined: 7/22/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
RatherDashing: Are there any other spirits capable of providing healing? People can thrive on emotionalism, yes, but how does emotionalism reflect medical reports of how cancer magically disappeared?
As others have state, satan can perform false signs and wonders.
True = of God.
False = of satan or demons.
False doesn't always mean faked. 'False' can refer to the power behind the miracle, a power which is very real but not of God. Rev 13:13 states that fire will come down from heaven through the power of the beast. It doesn't say it's only an illusion of fire... it says it's real fire which comes through real power.
Rev 13:13 And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
In fact, there are no limitations put on the types of false signs and wonders that can occur. That's why it's such a deception:
2 Thess 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders...
Matt 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Pagan and occult practitioners also claim to receive miraculous healings and signs... so does that make it of God?? This should tell you that there is a false power at work in the world that deceives many.
Test the spirits. When reading through the list of what Todd Bentley preaches, practices, and promotes, we find unbelievable greed, arrogance, false teaching, false prophecy, false miracles, false signs and wonders, promotion of self-induced trance and meditative states, visions of spirit guides, unBiblical claims of visiting levels of heaven. It's not that hard to put two and two together.
Just a note about the angel 'Emma': There are no female angels in scripture. That should have been Todd's first clue.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 5/5/2008 11:10:13 AM >
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 5/5/2008 11:21:29 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2007
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
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I am sure there are many honest seekers being touched by God. It would be inappropriate to equate every miracle with demonic activity.
_____________________________
-Ben-
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