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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/8/2008 12:11:40 PM
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ljmac
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
Just a minor point of order if I may. Doesn't the Bible, quite specificly mind you, say that a person shouldn't talk about how much they give? If it does, as I believe is the case, isn't it mightily hypocritcal to assume that Barak would boldly and proudly proclaim how generous he is?
The reason BHO doesn't "boldly and proudly proclaim how generous he is," is because he can't back it up. It certainly isn't because of some Christian notion of modesty or virtue.
If BHO lived by the priciple that he should not make donations public, then he would not make them public. But he did make them public, they were just pitifully small.
And let's not forget that this is a particularly boastful politician. He was quite proud to boast that he isn't like that "typical white person" grandmother of his who has an irrational fear of black people.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/8/2008 1:04:48 PM
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jkdjr25
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Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
Just a minor point of order if I may. Doesn't the Bible, quite specificly mind you, say that a person shouldn't talk about how much they give? If it does, as I believe is the case, isn't it mightily hypocritcal to assume that Barak would boldly and proudly proclaim how generous he is?
The reason BHO doesn't "boldly and proudly proclaim how generous he is," is because he can't back it up. It certainly isn't because of some Christian notion of modesty or virtue.
If BHO lived by the priciple that he should not make donations public, then he would not make them public. But he did make them public, they were just pitifully small.
And let's not forget that this is a particularly boastful politician. He was quite proud to boast that he isn't like that "typical white person" grandmother of his who has an irrational fear of black people.
Your accusations of a person being boastful doesn't line up with reality. Any politician that doesn't make their tax returns public would be eaten alive by the media and you know it. That his tax returns don't notate a history of giving is no indication that he hasn't. Believe it or not there are people who would claim such donations because they wouldn't want it to be a matter of public record.
Your mischaracterization of his speech on race is particularly disturbing and heavily leaning toward the false witness line. I listened to the whole speech and I'm good at picking up on the things you claim he actually meant and I didn't see them there.
Might I add that Christ once said let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Are any of us here without sin? Didn't think so.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/8/2008 2:14:56 PM
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P31W
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quote:
Believe it or not there are people who would claim such donations because they wouldn't want it to be a matter of public record.
One's tax returns are not a matter of "public record".
If however your idea is correct that Obama did not want his giving to be a matter of public record then WHY did he show a GREATER deduction when he KNEW IT WAS GOING TO BE MADE A MATTER OF PUBLIC RECORD?
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/8/2008 2:20:08 PM
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jkdjr25
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
Believe it or not there are people who would claim such donations because they wouldn't want it to be a matter of public record.
One's tax returns are not a matter of "public record".
If however your idea is correct that Obama did not want his giving to be a matter of public record then WHY did he show a GREATER deduction when he KNEW IT WAS GOING TO BE MADE A MATTER OF PUBLIC RECORD?
A normal person's tax returns may or may not be a matter of public record, however the tax returns of a person running for President ARE a matter of public record. You condem him for "not giving enough" and for being too stingy. No matter what he did it wouldn't be good enough. Like I said, he who is without sin cast the first stone.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/8/2008 2:23:43 PM
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P31W
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Before he was running for President he deducted less than one half of one percent of his income.
Once he decided to run for office and he knew his tax records would be made public the PERCENTAGE OF HIS GIVING INCREASED.
quote:
he who is without sin cast the first stone
Using scripture out of context to try to give you a postion that does not exist only harms your reputation.
I am not trying to kill the man for his sins. Rather he wants me to vote for him. He boast that he would be the best leader for our country and he boast of his good works. I know you may not understand the ramifications of not taking certian tax deductions but that does not mean the rest of us don't.
For me it's simple discernment. The man boast that he is the best leader for our country. One proof that he is not in my opinion and probably the opinion of some others here is his tax return. It shows his lack of giving at the most and at the least his lack of good stewardship.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/8/2008 2:30:46 PM
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jkdjr25
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Before he was running for President he deducted less than one half of one percent of his income.
Once he decided to run for office and he knew his tax records would be made public the PERCENTAGE OF HIS GIVING INCREASED.
quote:
he who is without sin cast the first stone
Using scripture out of context to try to give you a postion that does not exist only harms your reputation.
I am not trying to kill the man for his sins. Rather he wants me to vote for him. He boast that he would be the best leader for our country and he boast of his good works. I know you may not understand the ramifications of not taking certian tax deductions but that does not mean the rest of us don't.
For me it's simple discernment. The man boast that he is the best leader for our country. One proof that he is not in my opinion and probably the opinion of some others here is his tax return. It shows his lack of giving at the most and at the least his lack of good stewardship.
It's not out of context at all, though that's a nice try at a dodge. My point being is that everyone keeps talking about what a terrible person he is when we're ALL terrible people. Not one person here is worthy in the eyes of God. Without Christ we'd be doomed.
To hear the way some of the people here have been talking about Obama you'd think he'd personally killed someone you knew. There are very few voices saying let's pray for the man instead of condeming him. No one here has the right of condemnation. God forgave us our transgressions yet I see a surprising lack of compassion and love coming from the community as a whole. It's easier to get angry and say degratory things than it is to step up and say let us love this man as Christ loved us.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/8/2008 2:51:01 PM
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EStan
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quote:
There are very few voices saying let's pray for the man
I'll gladly say it. I am absolutely praying for Senator Obama - that he discover who Jesus Christ truly is, and places his faith in Him alone.
But I won't be voting for the man. No ifs, ands, or buts.
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Eternal Father, grant that through the tears of repentance I may see more clearly the brightness and glories of the saving cross.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/8/2008 3:29:08 PM
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jkdjr25
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EStan
quote:
There are very few voices saying let's pray for the man
I'll gladly say it. I am absolutely praying for Senator Obama - that he discover who Jesus Christ truly is, and places his faith in Him alone.
But I won't be voting for the man. No ifs, ands, or buts.
I've got no problem with people not voting for the man. I've got issue with people disagreeing with his politics, it's when you start actively deriding the PERSON that I have to take issue and make my displeasure known.
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I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/8/2008 4:33:11 PM
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Random
Posts: 1035
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Zipperhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Before he was running for President he deducted less than one half of one percent of his income.
Once he decided to run for office and he knew his tax records would be made public the PERCENTAGE OF HIS GIVING INCREASED.
To be fair, his increased giving also coincided with increased income.
_____________________________
"That which has always been accepted by everyone, everywhere, is almost certain to be false." -- Valery
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/8/2008 4:44:49 PM
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jkdjr25
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Random
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Before he was running for President he deducted less than one half of one percent of his income.
Once he decided to run for office and he knew his tax records would be made public the PERCENTAGE OF HIS GIVING INCREASED.
To be fair, his increased giving also coincided with increased income.
I kind of figured that would be the case. Of course that won't matter to some. He still should have given more because THEY would have given so much more than Obama. I wonder if they'll same the same things about McCain when his tax returns come out?
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: How caring is Obama...not very!!! - 4/8/2008 5:26:45 PM
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jimbob1
Posts: 39
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
quote:
ORIGINAL: Random
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Before he was running for President he deducted less than one half of one percent of his income.
Once he decided to run for office and he knew his tax records would be made public the PERCENTAGE OF HIS GIVING INCREASED.
To be fair, his increased giving also coincided with increased income.
I kind of figured that would be the case. Of course that won't matter to some. He still should have given more because THEY would have given so much more than Obama. I wonder if they'll same the same things about McCain when his tax returns come out?
There is not 1 shred of evidence that the super cheap uncaring, selfish Obama family cares not for the widow, orphan, the prisoner, the hiv+, abused kids, drug addicts, single moms, Seniors, not ANYONE BUT THEMSELVES. GIVING ABOUT 1% OF YOUR INCOME IS WHAT THE RECORD STATES, NOTHING ELSE. WHY ARE SOME TRYING TO INSINUATE HE GIVES MORE?????????????????????Please direct us then to "official" campaign explanations for his stinginess, or let his so called church leaders correct any record & let us know he tithes above & beyond.
But then again I haven't seen anything where the pastor or it's gay & lesbian ministry leaders tithe!
They are all for a pro-black welfare dependent state; not for digging deep in wallets. 
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/8/2008 5:30:59 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1378
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
Just a minor point of order if I may. Doesn't the Bible, quite specificly mind you, say that a person shouldn't talk about how much they give? If it does, as I believe is the case, isn't it mightily hypocritcal to assume that Barak would boldly and proudly proclaim how generous he is?
The reason BHO doesn't "boldly and proudly proclaim how generous he is," is because he can't back it up. It certainly isn't because of some Christian notion of modesty or virtue.
If BHO lived by the priciple that he should not make donations public, then he would not make them public. But he did make them public, they were just pitifully small.
And let's not forget that this is a particularly boastful politician. He was quite proud to boast that he isn't like that "typical white person" grandmother of his who has an irrational fear of black people.
Your accusations of a person being boastful doesn't line up with reality. Any politician that doesn't make their tax returns public would be eaten alive by the media and you know it. That his tax returns don't notate a history of giving is no indication that he hasn't. Believe it or not there are people who would claim such donations because they wouldn't want it to be a matter of public record.
Your mischaracterization of his speech on race is particularly disturbing and heavily leaning toward the false witness line. I listened to the whole speech and I'm good at picking up on the things you claim he actually meant and I didn't see them there.
Might I add that Christ once said let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Are any of us here without sin? Didn't think so.
I don't want to stone BHO, but I bet he'd want stoning legal if Planned Parenthood used it on the unborn.
You accuse me of bearing "false witness," then lecture me not to cast the first stone. Are logs painful?
The only evidence that we have about his charitable giving is that he is stingy. If you have evidence otherwise, please provide it.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/8/2008 5:45:03 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 771
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From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
Just a minor point of order if I may. Doesn't the Bible, quite specificly mind you, say that a person shouldn't talk about how much they give? If it does, as I believe is the case, isn't it mightily hypocritcal to assume that Barak would boldly and proudly proclaim how generous he is?
The reason BHO doesn't "boldly and proudly proclaim how generous he is," is because he can't back it up. It certainly isn't because of some Christian notion of modesty or virtue.
If BHO lived by the priciple that he should not make donations public, then he would not make them public. But he did make them public, they were just pitifully small.
And let's not forget that this is a particularly boastful politician. He was quite proud to boast that he isn't like that "typical white person" grandmother of his who has an irrational fear of black people.
Your accusations of a person being boastful doesn't line up with reality. Any politician that doesn't make their tax returns public would be eaten alive by the media and you know it. That his tax returns don't notate a history of giving is no indication that he hasn't. Believe it or not there are people who would claim such donations because they wouldn't want it to be a matter of public record.
Your mischaracterization of his speech on race is particularly disturbing and heavily leaning toward the false witness line. I listened to the whole speech and I'm good at picking up on the things you claim he actually meant and I didn't see them there.
Might I add that Christ once said let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Are any of us here without sin? Didn't think so.
I don't want to stone BHO, but I bet he'd want stoning legal if Planned Parenthood used it on the unborn.
You accuse me of bearing "false witness," then lecture me not to cast the first stone. Are logs painful?
The only evidence that we have about his charitable giving is that he is stingy. If you have evidence otherwise, please provide it.
Actually logs aren't anywhere near as painful as papercuts ;)
As for his giving it IS within the realm of possibility that a person would give more than they indicate on their tax returns. It's called being humble and whether or not anyone likes it or agrees with it there is the possibility that the Obama family did precisely that. You've all done a really good job of pointing out his sins and his flaws I just hope you've dealt with your own before doing so because we shouldn't be behaving this way or talking this way about a person. I don't agree with several of the things Obama does. That doesn't mean I think he's a horrible person, I can't say that because I don't know him. And neither do any of you.
EDITED to remove off topic conversation.
< Message edited by Random -- 4/9/2008 6:13:59 AM >
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: How caring is Obama...No real tithing here! - 4/9/2008 6:07:22 AM
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Random
Posts: 1035
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From: Zipperhead
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ATTENTION MODERATOR'S NOTE
The topic of this thread is the charitable giving of Obama, and the giving of Clinton or McCain is also within the thread. The comments about racism are not germane to the topic, and have been removed.
If you wish to discuss racism in the context of the election, use this thread.
This thread closed.
Please do not respond to this message in the community.
Please do not PM me about this message.
Sincerely,
Random
Forums Moderator
_____________________________
"That which has always been accepted by everyone, everywhere, is almost certain to be false." -- Valery
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/9/2008 7:34:15 AM
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P31W
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quote:
To be fair, his increased giving also coincided with increased income.
Yes but I am looking at the "percentage" of his giving. That is where the increase really is.
Before he decided to run and knew his giving would be announced to the world he gave less than 1/2 of 1%. That is less than the national average of what ? 2.5%.
Once he made the decision to run the percentage of his giving suddenly went up dramatically. He is still not close to a tithe but "most" Americans who vote won't be able to say they give a greater "percentage" than he does. I think the had that in mind when he decided to begin to give a greater percentage of his income.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/9/2008 7:46:47 AM
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jkdjr25
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Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
To be fair, his increased giving also coincided with increased income.
Yes but I am looking at the "percentage" of his giving. That is where the increase really is.
Before he decided to run and knew his giving would be announced to the world he gave less than 1/2 of 1%. That is less than the national average of what ? 2.5%.
Once he made the decision to run the percentage of his giving suddenly went up dramatically. He is still not close to a tithe but "most" Americans who vote won't be able to say they give a greater "percentage" than he does. I think the had that in mind when he decided to begin to give a greater percentage of his income.
Would you actually claim the tithe on you taxes? I'm not sure I recall where God said that you were to give your first fruits and then finagle a way to get them back. That's one of the things that I meant when I said that it was within the realm of possibility that he gave more than he declared. There are people who wouldn't care to claim giving on their tax returns because it was a in the spirit of giving, not give and get back.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/9/2008 8:15:34 AM
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Random
Posts: 1035
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From: Zipperhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
To be fair, his increased giving also coincided with increased income.
Yes but I am looking at the "percentage" of his giving. That is where the increase really is.
Before he decided to run and knew his giving would be announced to the world he gave less than 1/2 of 1%. That is less than the national average of what ? 2.5%.
Once he made the decision to run the percentage of his giving suddenly went up dramatically. He is still not close to a tithe but "most" Americans who vote won't be able to say they give a greater "percentage" than he does. I think the had that in mind when he decided to begin to give a greater percentage of his income.
You are missing my point. As his INCOME increased, his PERCENTAGE of income donated also increased. This does coincide with his entry into politics, but it could also be caused by his increase in income (in other words it *could* be a coincidence).
He has even publicly stated this. You can choose to not believe him, but he has said that he started giving a larger percentage b/c he was more able to with his higher income. Prior to that he was struggling financially, with two young kids and not much income. To me, it looks like his increased giving lagged his increased income about a year, which is probably not that unusual, as it takes some people a little while to realize they can now afford to give more.
So, you choose to believe that he increased his giving because he knew it would be public. I choose to believe that he increased his percentage giving because he was more able to since his income increased, which is what he said. Neither of us can ever know for sure, but I think it's important to consider the possibility that his motives are not as sinister as you suggest.
And for the record, I am not an Obama-apologist. I am still "undecided" as to who I will vote for this year. I am more interested in the issue of using tax returns as ironclad proof of giving than I am interested in supporting a certain candidate.
_____________________________
"That which has always been accepted by everyone, everywhere, is almost certain to be false." -- Valery
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/9/2008 8:22:11 AM
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P31W
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quote:
He has even publicly stated this. You can choose to not believe him, but he has said that he started giving a larger percentage b/c he was more able to with his higher income. Prior to that he was struggling financially, with two young kids and not much income.
This is from page one. I don't see any reason for him to have been "struggling".
2002 - the year before Obama launched his campaign for the Senate the Obamas reported income - $259,394, ranking them in the top 2 percent of U.S. households - deductions claimed $1,050
Folks that's less than half of one percent of their income!!!!!,
The average U.S. household gave $1,872 in 2002
This is not from page one. But to help us put in context Obama's income to others in 2002- real median household income was $43,318, according to the U.S. Census
< Message edited by P31W -- 4/9/2008 8:30:57 AM >
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/9/2008 8:25:07 AM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 771
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
He has even publicly stated this. You can choose to not believe him, but he has said that he started giving a larger percentage b/c he was more able to with his higher income. Prior to that he was struggling financially, with two young kids and not much income.
This is from page one. I don't see any reason for him to have been "struggling".
2002 - the year before Obama launched his campaign for the Senate the Obamas reported income - $259,394, ranking them in the top 2 percent of U.S. households - deductions claimed $1,050
Folks that's less than half of one percent of their income!!!!!,
The average U.S. household gave $1,872 in 2002
You should also remember that it within the realm of possibility that he gave more than he reported, OR that he gave of his time. Both are possible.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/9/2008 8:28:33 AM
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P31W
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Most of my friends make that kind of money or more. They all take all their deductions. None of them "want" to pay more income tax than they "have to". Most in that income group have specialist who "help" them pay as little taxes as possible.
My friends are not dummies when it comes to money. This is a bad stewardship issue or a hypocrite issue in my eyes. Either way. Not the best choice for a leader.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/9/2008 8:37:40 AM
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P31W
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Just to restate the facts here.
In 2002
The med. household income was $43,318 - average giving $1,872
Obama's income $259,394 - his reported giving $1050
Random you said (I have not heard this before now) That he said publicly "that he started giving a larger percentage b/c he was more able to with his higher income. Prior to that he was struggling financially, with two young kids and not much income"
< Message edited by P31W -- 4/9/2008 8:43:59 AM >
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/9/2008 8:42:21 AM
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jkdjr25
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I still submit that it is within the realm of possibility that he did not declare all donations. There are people who view such giving as being between them and God and such giving has no bearing on what they pay in taxes. It is a reasonable way to think about the issue.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/9/2008 8:50:01 AM
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P31W
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quote:
It is a reasonable way to think about the issue.
Not to me a taxpayer.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/9/2008 9:13:39 AM
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jkdjr25
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
It is a reasonable way to think about the issue.
Not to me a taxpayer.
That you think it's not reasonable doesn't make it so. There are numerous possibilities and the only ones who truly know the truth of the matter are God and Barak Obama. No one here can claim that they know beyond all doubt what the truth of the situation is or was.
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Sorry but this is just too funny to me. Top 2% in the nation "not much income". LOL