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RE: Is church too feminine? - 5/18/2008 10:18:14 PM
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ex-prodigal
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quote:
ORIGINAL: redeemedsaint
Pretty much, the women are taking over instead of the men who just sit back and do nothing when they should be taking the lead and be the head of the household or whatever.
AMEN!!!!!!!!!We have dropped the ball guys(no,not every man,but in general).
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 5/19/2008 4:23:42 PM
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notmycity
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quote:
ORIGINAL: YZGUY
I'm a worship leader at my church - and I hear what many are saying about the songs, a high key, very emotional, etc. I guess the next logical question is, "What are songs that are 'man approved,' at least in regards to topic, emotionals, etc.?"
Matt 26:30
30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
In stead of WWJD, we should ask WDJD (What DID Jesus do?).
We have record they sung a single hymn. We emphasis was NOT on music then, but notice on the Lord’s Supper.
Heb 10:22-25
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
The above Scripture tells us WHY to gather and 1 Corinthians 14 tells us exactly how to gather.
Neither account emphasizes music - ever.
Music and emotionalism reign supreme, and is typically feminine in nature in ALL the churches we have attended.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 5/22/2008 12:43:53 PM
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1mlasp
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I agree that much of the songs we sing in church are overly feminine. I like the praise and worship songs that are taken from the Psalms. However, the Psalms are also full of references of God destroying his enemies, sinners being consumed and the wicked to be no more, etc.
If we sang a song of praise about the Red Sea parting and the Egyptian horses and riders falling into the sea (one of my favorite songs, actually), how many American Christians would think that just a little bit ghoulish? I'm wondering if these types of songs acknowledging both a loving God who wants a relationship with us and a jealous and powerful God who wants us to put him first would actually draw more men in.
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 5/22/2008 1:03:27 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1306
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From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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when thinking about this....there's also the "other side".....attempts to be "manly" can backfire...
Our church recently had a "mens retreat".....some Christian radio guy (Chip Ingram) was the "guest speaker"......and, it was supposedly a very "MANLY" event...(at least it was a "success", as 800+ men showed up at our church)
5 minutes didn't go by, until the first mention of SPORTS came up....(something to do with basketball and how it correlated with something else).....you go to "promise keepers".....it's all about "sports" (athletes and coaches, etc..etc..)....
It's a little insulting to the intelligence that "male"=sports....not that I don't like sports, I love baseball and hockey as much as anybody else....but, to think that it's the ONLY way I am going to understand, or be interested in, a passage of scripture, or a message, is a big "stereotype"....
So, when the "mens ministry" continues that "theme", again, it's insulting to my intelligence.
As far as music, I really like the music our church does. The director of music is a guy...the piano player is a guy.....many in the "praise team" are men....a good many in choir are men.....I don't see the "music" as feminine (unless a woman is singing it...and even then it's not usually overly "feminine")
I see more men in church, and heavily involved in the ministries there FAR MORE than I ever did in the church I grew up in. You RARELY see a married woman in our church without her husband (unless he's out of town on business (which is very common at our church), or he's home sick)....
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 5/22/2008 2:05:47 PM
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notmycity
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
....5 minutes didn't go by, until the first mention of SPORTS came up....(something to do with basketball and how it correlated with something else).....you go to "promise keepers".....it's all about "sports" (athletes and coaches, etc..etc..)....
Agreed. This is to many men what fluffy songs are to many women. It’s there to bring ‘em in and pack those pews...
Both methods are unscriptural, as are any practices NOT in line with God’s Word.
My wife would tell you that my masculinity is inversely proportional to my love of “sports”, as I simply do not have the time to follow sports. It’s just another stereotype...
Just try to have church as outlined in Hebrews 10:22-25 for starters. It simply isn’t happening at ANY church we’ve been to.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 5/22/2008 2:07:28 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1306
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: online
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quote:
Just try to have church as outlined in Hebrews 10:22-25 for starters.
Why have a church as "outlined" in the OT, instead of the NT?
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 5/22/2008 4:36:29 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1200
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:
Just try to have church as outlined in Hebrews 10:22-25 for starters.
Why have a church as "outlined" in the OT, instead of the NT?
Hebrews is in the NT...
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 5/22/2008 6:07:45 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1306
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:
Just try to have church as outlined in Hebrews 10:22-25 for starters.
Why have a church as "outlined" in the OT, instead of the NT?
Hebrews is in the NT...
But, why Hebrews? The church in Acts, for example is NT...and, that's what our church follows more than anything....at least I think so....perhaps there are those who disagree, iam not sure....
It's always been a "head scratcher" to me as to why many people selectively pull passages from the OT...and, then turn around and say that the OT is the "old law", and we now live under a new covenant, the NT....
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 5/23/2008 10:55:38 AM
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FolkSingerBlues
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The bottom line is this. Jesus is to be addressed as a King, God a father.
Now honestly how many of you can say that most modern Christian music does that.
Most of the modern praise songs lack the respect that our God and perfecter of our faith deserves.
I'm not being a critic, I'm being honest.
Jesus isn't our "boyfriend" he's our King.
_____________________________
My New Blog site
Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 5/23/2008 11:07:57 AM
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notmycity
Posts: 1200
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:
Just try to have church as outlined in Hebrews 10:22-25 for starters.
Why have a church as "outlined" in the OT, instead of the NT?
Hebrews is in the NT...
But, why Hebrews? The church in Acts, for example is NT...and, that's what our church follows more than anything....at least I think so....perhaps there are those who disagree, iam not sure....
It's always been a "head scratcher" to me as to why many people selectively pull passages from the OT...and, then turn around and say that the OT is the "old law", and we now live under a new covenant, the NT....
The modern effeminate church looks NOTHING like the accounts of acts.
As for OT references, it appears you’re confusing this with another thread.
As for Hebrews 10:22-25, if people were honest about it they would not even attend church because of what is COMMANDED in those verses. Read them and please think about it.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 5/23/2008 12:53:06 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1306
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
yep...definitely applies to my church (we baptize quite regularly: 1,000+ a year; we hold "unswervingly" to our faith; we definitely spur one another toward love and 'good deeds'; and, meeting together? very very often...and "encouraging" one another certainly plays a big part in our gatherings)
.....as does the church as described in Acts.....i guess my church isn't a "modern effeminate church"......oh, it's "modern" all right, but that doesn't make it "effeminate"....
THOUGH, others may have a different OPINION....since, most people only judge our church by what they see on the outside....and, don't bother going in to see what's on the "inside".....
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 6/4/2008 3:19:57 AM
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TomTurn
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Joined: 3/13/2008
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quote:
Hello,
I think church has become too feminine in recent years at the same time attendance among men has declined. Is this a problem?
Reasons I think church is too feminine: Music has become romantic love songs based on feelings (it's debatable, but I think popular male artists sound too feminine), flowers adorn sanctuaries, Kleenex boxes are all over the place (for crying BTW), we share what we feel rather than tell what we think.
Your thoughts?
Maybe some have, not sure but I do know too many women in Church equate being Christ like to being feminine and look down on too many things in males that are God given traits in males.
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 6/8/2008 1:40:22 PM
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nuclear_sidewalk
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Christian Men need to start being more than just 'nice guys' and start living as Christ did. Put ourselves out there, lead, leave comfort zones, take risks for that which is God-honoring, etc.
Also, check out books like...
Wild at Heart by John Eldridge
He-Motions by T.D. Jakes
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 6/8/2008 8:10:51 PM
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Bobby
Posts: 174
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From: Orangeburg, Clemson Prefecture, Japan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
I just wanted to comment on the music. I have a hard time singing on key with todays modern music. Most of it is in a key that is too high for me. Even half of the popular Christian male singers sounds like women (IMO). Hymns on the other hand, I can usually sing bass or baritone. Also, todays music is much more emotional and figurative compared to hymns which are more logical and literal (again IMO).
Beanteaser,
I agree with that. Without notes, I can't sing it properly. I can also sense the "emotional" aspect of the song compared to the Biblical doctrine of older tunes thanks to research into great sites. As a tenor, it offends me when all you hear are more "feminised" tunes in church. If that's not bad enough, the church music leaders now prefer having young girls dancing to pop tunes instead of the choir singing sacred tunes; when the choir sings, it is mostly karaoke pop tunes sans sound doctrine or theology.
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 6/9/2008 12:03:41 PM
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beauregarde
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My church definitely gets the masculine side of its congregation, often to the chagrin of women. But it certainly does not forget about the feminine side of things either. The flip side, we get accused of being a big box suburban church that exists for the benefit of upper middle class professional men and their families.
Oh well - no matter what is done, there will always be critics.
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 6/15/2008 9:48:14 AM
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jn1010lf
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Hello Beanteaser
In many instance, I would have to say that some parts of the church have become feminized. I don't mind flowers in church, nor do I object to worship songs of a meditative nature. Now what I have to say may not be noticeable or some might think I'm nit picking but let me ask this? When was the last time you heard a low pitched male voice in any contemporary praise and worship team? Has anyone taken note of a vast majority of contemporary music CD's? Men's voices are all high and sweet; never forceful, boistrous or commanding? I've actually asked some praise and worship leaders if I would be allowed to sing in Heaven. I see all of this as a femeninzation of the church.
Now, there is yet another issue and I lay this at the feet of men. In most cases, women are open in free to praise God in services while men are content to mumble in their seats. Many men are hesitant to let the Lord consume their identities. Many men are hesitant to express their feelings of anything other than the attitude of conquest. David gave his heart to the Lord and he was made a conqueror.
So, if the church is being feminized, men should step up and assume the forefront of leadership. Wives would join them by their side, not behind, ahead of but beside; with, partnership, a strand of three (man,woman,Jesus). I really thinks that's God's design.
The late Kathryn Coolman said that the Lord revealed to her that he approached 8 different men to do what she did. All 8 refused, so he notice her, a willing servant. Does that tell us something?
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 6/15/2008 9:51:26 PM
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kljohnson77
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Joined: 12/28/2006
From: North Central Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jn1010lf
The late Kathryn Coolman said that the Lord revealed to her that he approached 8 different men to do what she did. All 8 refused, so he notice her, a willing servant. Does that tell us something?
Yeah, Kathryn Kuhlman was a kook and false "spiritual" teacher.
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 6/16/2008 10:45:08 AM
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freakofnature
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Is church to feminine? Define feminine? Better yet, define Masculine? I mean what, (OP) kleenexes? People don't cry at your church? Besides this "Church" is just a building! I mean, a place to house kleenexes, flower pots, and chairs. What are the people in your church like. Loving, Godly, Friendly? How about your pastor, he isn't wearing a dress is he?(unless your pastor is a woman) He is speaking truth from the bible no? I understand that our church building was built literally by the men and the women decorated it? I couldn't believe my ears when I heard a man say that the bathrooms were too feminine? The bathrooms?? What is it that you need to do in the bathroom that you need it to be more masculine? What do you want? T.V.'s, and open bar, ESPN blaring through a flat screen on the back of the stall. So another poster said that it is insulting for everyone to insinuate that Male=sports? Then what? What is it you want them to talk about? Cars? Well isn't that the same as sports, I mean in that "Men=Love Cars"??? Let's see, how about, boats... no??? Uh! Fishin'... no or hunti.... no? Then what guys?
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 6/28/2008 2:38:13 AM
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Gluelin
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quote:
ORIGINAL: freakofnature
Is church to feminine? Define feminine? Better yet, define Masculine?
Are you serious. Ever since women have taken over psychology, the entire culture has become emasculated. If you cannot discern feminine from masculine, then there is a real problem. On a basic level, there is physiology. On a psychological level, there is behavior. Men are too often minimized in today's culture. If one must ask what is feminine and what is masculine, the implication is, there is no distinction. So femininism has won. Masculinity becomes irrelevant, has become irrelevant. The problem is not that the church has become feminized, it is that the culture has become feminized.
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 6/30/2008 8:30:16 AM
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David_D
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I'm having trouble finding where in the Bible it says "Seriously guys, thou shalt not sing above middle C". I'm also not seeing any condemnation of flowers or certain colors of paint.
We're talking about cultural norms and stereotypes here, guys. I have a high voice and like some things you might call "girly". It doesn't make me any less of a man, just a different one. Deciding you will never do something because it doesn't fit in with your definition of masculine just means you're missing out on something you might enjoy.
< Message edited by David_D -- 6/30/2008 9:22:47 AM >
_____________________________
Jesus, Jesus, precious Jesus
O for grace to trust Him more!
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 6/30/2008 9:17:39 AM
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freakofnature
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quote:
Gluelin
ORIGINAL: freakofnature
Is church to feminine? Define feminine? Better yet, define Masculine?
Are you serious. Ever since women have taken over psychology, the entire culture has become emasculated. If you cannot discern feminine from masculine, then there is a real problem. On a basic level, there is physiology. On a psychological level, there is behavior. Men are too often minimized in today's culture. If one must ask what is feminine and what is masculine, the implication is, there is no distinction. So femininism has won. Masculinity becomes irrelevant, has become irrelevant. The problem is not that the church has become feminized, it is that the culture has become feminized.
The point being made is that how much masculinity does a church need to have before you can consider it masculine enough? Then, btw, won't the ladies complain that it isn't feminine enough? The point isn't that there is no distinction between the sexes. What is it that the church must equate to manlihood? Again, I ask, open bar? (serving coca-cola and pepsi of course) T.V.'s in the stalls in the restroom? Does the pastor have to preach to the crowd and make his talking points relate to fishin', car repair, arm wrestling? I don't see this as a big deal, if your church is too femine either start a men's group, and take the men out huntin' and a fishin' and/or find another church.
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 6/30/2008 12:30:01 PM
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Beanteaser
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From: Minnesota
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The main issue I have with church being too feminine is that man are leaving the church. Something has to be done to reverse that trend.
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 6/30/2008 2:20:56 PM
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David_D
Posts: 126
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From: OH AYTCH - EYE OH
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
The main issue I have with church being too feminine is that man are leaving the church. Something has to be done to reverse that trend.
This I can agree with. What did you have in mind? Would something like a "masculinized" (quotes not intended to mock) service at a different time help?
_____________________________
Jesus, Jesus, precious Jesus
O for grace to trust Him more!
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Yeah,and some are just plain idiots.Makes me wonder if they read their own bibles,or if they themselves just listen to what a pastor tells them.Is it a denomination thing?There should be NO such thing,scripture is what it is.And it says what it says,plain and clear.Should we not be BELIEVERS,did Jesus EVER mention ANYTHING about different denominations?Not to my knowledge.The 'church' is so divided that it is pathetic,people need to stop and re-evaluate themselves.
SORRY!I can hardly contain myself!!!!!!!!!Too funny!
