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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 9/10/2008 10:08:55 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
How can you say that? Do you believe God is actually wind?...you know, the air that blows the leaves on trees? Is that what you're saying? I was speaking of John 3:5. Obviously the wind in John 3:8 is a figure of speech. Jesus does say, "So it is" indicating that it's a figure of speech. I see no such indication in John 3:5. If the Holy Spirit literally means the Holy Spirit in John 3:5 then water means literal water since they are both objects in the same prepositional phrase.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 9/10/2008 10:12:42 AM
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greatdivide46
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Regarding the publican and the thief on the cross, baptism wasn't an issue for either of them since Christian baptism had not yet been instituted. Therefore, it's true that they were both justified without baptism. But since Christian baptism has been instituted, I'm not so sure that's true for everyone anymore. Not saying that baptism itself is what justifies a person, but I think it's possible that justification occurs at the same point in time that we are baptized.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 9/11/2008 10:51:33 AM
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FolkSingerBlues
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How is baptism considered working for salvation.
The people who hold such a view do not view "saying a prayer" as an act, but it is.
These are often the same people who point to God's sovereignty, while denying that his precepts must be followed.
Insist that we are saved by "grace alone" and become so confused about the interaction that is required for ANY relationship including one with God.
Insist that salvation is a gift from God and deny that God has given us instruction on how to accept that gift.
I often take a bath, not a shower, a bath. I don't do that out of some sick twisted spiritually deranged idea that bathing submersed in water continually renews my "state of salvation". That would be deranged and falsely perceived idea of "work" that saves me.
The issue of baptism will be a long standing debate because people will continually argue against it based on ignorance and obstinance towards even trying to understand the other side (our side) of the debate. I would encourage us all to focus on the many benefits that Proverbs teaches as the benefits of UNDERSTANDING.
Furthermore I will try to explain one more thing. If you want to know everything the Bible teaches about angels would you study Romans only for that information? Or would you read accounts that angels were in or explained in all books of the Bible in order to come to a proper and informed understanding of angels and all the attributes that we can learn. Of course you would study the whole of Scripture for that information to have a proper understanding.
If someone can accuse me of being a legalist for studying Scripture for a thorough understanding and then applying it to my daily life and teaching I'd be highly suspicious of how they came to the beliefs and walk they themselves have.
In the end God won't judge you on what I believe. I choose to study Scripture in it's entirety for thorough understanding.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 9/12/2008 5:06:54 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
So when you clean your kitchen table after lunch, you immerse it? Yes, I get it completely wet and then I dry it off. However, I don't pick the table up and submerge it in water, but niether do I just sprinkle a few drops of water on it and then call it clean. I do, however, pick up the other utensils I used for lunch and submerge them in water. You do not get it "completely" wet, you do not submerge the table. The point is not how much water sprinkling, pouring or immersion. Can you show where baptizo or baptismo is translated dip or immerse"
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We know for a surety the table is not immersed. Besides, you have no evidence that baptism "always implies an immersion in something, i.e., the Holy Spirit, suffering, fire, etc." In fact, you cannot even point to one event of water baptism which proves immersion - not one. Everytime baptism is used in Scripture it means immersion -- overwhelmed by something. That's the definition of the word "baptizo." It means to immerse in liquid, to get something completely wet.
In fact, in Scripture we never see baptizo or baptismos translated dip or immerse.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 9/12/2008 5:09:23 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
A lexicon is not the Bible. And, we have absolutely no evidence from the Bible that water baptism entails immersion. Nor, do we have evidence the word itself is always used to mean immersion...think table. You are quite right -- a lexicon is not the Bible. However, without a lexicon we would be unable to understand the words of the Bible. Even those who know koine Greek and Hebrew rely on lexicons to determine the meaning of words. I agree to a point. But, when a lexicon contradicts how a word in used in Scripture, then Scripture must trump the lexicon.
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When the word "baptize" entered the English language in 1611 it was a transliteration of the Greek word "baptizo." If they had translated the word instead of transliterating it, it would have read "immersion." Again, in Scripture we never see baptizo or baptismos translated dip or immerse.
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As for the table, it still gets completely wet, whether you call that immersion or something else. No, a table does not get completely wet. Who completely wets the underside of a table or its legs? We see baptizo, baptismos to mean washings i.e., Luke 11:38 and Heb 9:10. The context of each of these verses clearly shows that the word "washing" is a correct translation. Furthermore, there is no implication of dipping or immersion.
All these washings the Pharisees did before dinner - cups, pots, brazen vessels and tables are all related to the ceremonial cleansings of the OT. This is intimated by the language of Luke 11:39-40 which immediately follows the verse dealing with Pharisees washing before dinnner.
In the OT washing with water could include sprinkling, washing the hands and feet and even washing the whole body. These were ceremonial laws pointing to the washing away of sin by the Messiah. They also used blood offerings, burnt offerings. That's why in the NT God introduced the ceremonial sign of water baptism which emphasized and pointed to our need to have our sins washed away.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 9/12/2008 5:18:27 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
How can you say that? Do you believe God is actually wind?...you know, the air that blows the leaves on trees? Is that what you're saying? I was speaking of John 3:5. Obviously the wind in John 3:8 is a figure of speech. Jesus does say, "So it is" indicating that it's a figure of speech. I see no such indication in John 3:5. If the Holy Spirit literally means the Holy Spirit in John 3:5 then water means literal water since they are both objects in the same prepositional phrase.
Metaphoric and literal language are found in the same sentence. We see this in Mat 3:11 - baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire.
quote:
Regarding the publican and the thief on the cross, baptism wasn't an issue for either of them since Christian baptism had not yet been instituted. Therefore, it's true that they were both justified without baptism. But since Christian baptism has been instituted, I'm not so sure that's true for everyone anymore. Not saying that baptism itself is what justifies a person, but I think it's possible that justification occurs at the same point in time that we are baptized.
We have no evidence to the effect that justification occurs with water baptism. Rather, we see justification more closely identified with faith (Rom 3:28; 5:1).
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 9/12/2008 10:04:02 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1183
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
You do not get it "completely" wet, you do not submerge the table. The point is not how much water sprinkling, pouring or immersion. Can you show where baptizo or baptismo is translated dip or immerse" I don't know about you, but when I "wash" something, I get it completely wet. Granted, in the case of a table, I only wash the top of the table, but still I get that portion of the table completely wet. I guess you can refer to that as pouring or sprinkling the table if you like. I'm OK with that. But when it comes to baptizing a person, immersion is the only Biblical way since the word "baptizo" means immersion.
I know the word "baptizo" is never translated as immerse or dip and that's because of the theological mindset of the translators of the King James Version of the Bible who knew that if they translated the word instead of transliterating it they be contradicting they're own practice of sprinkling infants. That's why it's not translated immerse even though that's what it means.
And I agree the Scripture as more authority than a lexicon, but for the life of me I can't see how you would be able to understand scripture with the use of a lexicon. Even if you rely one some else's use of the lexicon and not your own.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 9/12/2008 11:03:49 AM
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FolkSingerBlues
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I would like to see evidence someone present evidence that the first century church used any other method than total immersion in baptism. In my study I've never found evidence that the first century church used sprinkling.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 9/13/2008 5:30:05 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
You do not get it "completely" wet, you do not submerge the table. The point is not how much water sprinkling, pouring or immersion. Can you show where baptizo or baptismo is translated dip or immerse" I don't know about you, but when I "wash" something, I get it completely wet. Granted, in the case of a table, I only wash the top of the table, but still I get that portion of the table completely wet. I guess you can refer to that as pouring or sprinkling the table if you like. I'm OK with that. But when it comes to baptizing a person, immersion is the only Biblical way since the word "baptizo" means immersion. Not according to Scripture does baptizo mean immersion. It means washing.
quote:
I know the word "baptizo" is never translated as immerse or dip and that's because of the theological mindset of the translators of the King James Version of the Bible who knew that if they translated the word instead of transliterating it they be contradicting they're own practice of sprinkling infants. That's why it's not translated immerse even though that's what it means. Oh, please, gd. It's not translated immerse or dip because the context of the verses will not allow it to be - nothing to do with "bias". That is a very poor argument especially when the biblical passages will absolutely not allow for immersion.
My point is not the "method" of water baptism. It is that we are instructed from the Bible that the word "baptize" means to cleanse or purify. The idea of immersion is never used as a synonym for salvation; but, washing and cleansing are.
quote:
And I agree the Scripture as more authority than a lexicon, but for the life of me I can't see how you would be able to understand scripture with the use of a lexicon. Even if you rely one some else's use of the lexicon and not your own.
I never suggested not using a lexicon. I'm simply saying that when the lexicon contradicts Scripture, as it does in this case, we must always side with Scripture. How can we say baptizo means immersion when, in fact, biblical passages clearly show it does not?
Do you have any comment on the OT washings which pointed to the NT water baptism?
All these washings the Pharisees did before dinner - cups, pots, brazen vessels and tables are all related to the ceremonial cleansings of the OT. This is intimated by the language of Luke 11:39-40 which immediately follows the verse dealing with Pharisees washing before dinnner.
In the OT washing with water could include sprinkling, washing the hands and feet and even washing the whole body. These were ceremonial laws pointing to the washing away of sin by the Messiah. They also used blood offerings, burnt offerings. That's why in the NT God introduced the ceremonial sign of water baptism which emphasized and pointed to our need to have our sins washed away.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 9/15/2008 6:14:07 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1183
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
I never suggested not using a lexicon. I'm simply saying that when the lexicon contradicts Scripture, as it does in this case, we must always side with Scripture. How can we say baptizo means immersion when, in fact, biblical passages clearly show it does not? I guess I'm not getting it. How is it that the Greek scholars who compile the lexicons have missed out on the biblical passages that clearly show the baptism does not mean immersion. I have looked in several lexicons and not one of them has defined "baptizo" as "washing." Every one of them has defined "baptizo" as meaning "to immerse or to dip." Somehow those who have compiled the lexicons have missed what you clearly see.
quote:
Do you have any comment on the OT washings which pointed to the NT water baptism? Nope. I will probably agree with anything you say concerning the OT washings which point to NT baptism.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 9/15/2008 7:29:38 PM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
I never suggested not using a lexicon. I'm simply saying that when the lexicon contradicts Scripture, as it does in this case, we must always side with Scripture. How can we say baptizo means immersion when, in fact, biblical passages clearly show it does not? I guess I'm not getting it. How is it that the Greek scholars who compile the lexicons have missed out on the biblical passages that clearly show the baptism does not mean immersion. Actually, it wouldn't be the first time lexicons have been misleading. They are, after all, not inspired.
quote:
I have looked in several lexicons and not one of them has defined "baptizo" as "washing." Every one of them has defined "baptizo" as meaning "to immerse or to dip." Somehow those who have compiled the lexicons have missed what you clearly see. I can't take credit for being the only one who "clearly sees" that baptizo is never seen as immersion in Scripture.
Some quotes from Francis A. Schaeffer
"As a matter of fact, from evidence from the Catacombs before 200, it would seem probable that effusion, pouring, could have been the most common mode of baptism in the early church. That is, they stood in water and then had water poured on their head. Our position as to the mode of baptism is that immersion is not the only mode."
"The words baptizo and bapto in the classical Greek are used with great latitude. Neither of these words can be said always to mean immerse. In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the word "baptize" is used in such a way that it could not possibly always mean immersion. For example. in Daniel 4:23 in the Septuagint, it says that Nebuchadnezzar was baptized with dew. Certainly no one would say that he was immersed in dew."
"In the New Testament use of the word, it is equally true that the word 'baptize" cannot always mean immersion. For example, in Hebrews 9:10, we read: "Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation."
quote:
quote:
Do you have any comment on the OT washings which pointed to the NT water baptism? Nope. I will probably agree with anything you say concerning the OT washings which point to NT baptism.
Exactly, the OT washings.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 9/15/2008 11:12:36 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
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Kelman,
I read the article you linked to for Francis Shaeffer.
Of course I didn't agree with all of it's interpretations but I am interested in pursuing the historical evidence of immersion.
Thanks for that link.
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Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 9/16/2008 1:38:29 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
Kelman,
I read the article you linked to for Francis Shaeffer.
Of course I didn't agree with all of it's interpretations but I am interested in pursuing the historical evidence of immersion.
Thanks for that link.
You're most welcome, FSB. I'm glad you found some of its information helpful.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 9/17/2008 6:05:32 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
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Kelman,
The article you posted was interesting but I find it to be vague. I am curious about the reference to the catacombs and the evidence that pouring "may have been" the form of baptism.
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Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 9/18/2008 10:12:49 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1183
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Exactly, the OT washings. I'm not familiar with the Hebrew word used for washings, but you know what I think about the NT word "baptizo" that is sometimes translated "washings."
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 9/23/2008 4:29:56 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
Kelman,
The article you posted was interesting but I find it to be vague. I am curious about the reference to the catacombs and the evidence that pouring "may have been" the form of baptism.
There seems to be some archaeological evidence of pouring. Some have noted the drawings in catacombs and studies of early Christian baptismals by Professor M.M. Ninan states, "In every case the baptismal fonts were shallow pools where only the candidates feet were immersed. These were certainly unsuitable for total immersion as is practiced today. Even in the squatting mode, immersion could not be accomplished. Water was certainly poured on people from an overhead stream or from a pitcher held by the person baptizing."
From the Bible Encyclopedia
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 9/29/2008 1:32:07 PM
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raivyne
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I was just baptized on Sunday.
I think you can be saved and not baptized by physical waters. Baptism by the Holy Spirit though? I don't really know honestly.
For many people when they ask Jesus to come in and save them the outward change is slower to come. They have issues they are working through (with the help of the Lord)... internal struggles that may not immediately result in outward change.
I know I thought about getting baptized for four years before I actually did it. I wasn't ready... I hadn't fully repented yet. Once all those changes took place on the inside I didn't hesitate in arranging it with my pastor!
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Good – God = 0
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 9/29/2008 4:45:13 PM
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raivyne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
I know I thought about getting baptized for four years before I actually did it. I wasn't ready... I hadn't fully repented yet. Once all those changes took place on the inside I didn't hesitate in arranging it with my pastor!
So, were you saved during those four years even though you hadn't fully repented yet?
good question. I accepted Christ, but I cannot say I honestly believe I would have been accepted into the Kingdom until I fully repented in August.
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God grades on the cross – not on a curve
Good – God = 0
In the dark? Follow the Son!
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 9/29/2008 6:24:06 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
So, were you saved during those four years even though you hadn't fully repented yet?
Full repentance implies a complete turning away from every sin in our life. If God demanded that of us, how could salvation be said to be not by works?
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 9/29/2008 6:43:06 PM
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disciplelife
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
I was just baptized on Sunday.
I think you can be saved and not baptized by physical waters. Baptism by the Holy Spirit though? I don't really know honestly.
For many people when they ask Jesus to come in and save them the outward change is slower to come. They have issues they are working through (with the help of the Lord)... internal struggles that may not immediately result in outward change.
I know I thought about getting baptized for four years before I actually did it. I wasn't ready... I hadn't fully repented yet. Once all those changes took place on the inside I didn't hesitate in arranging it with my pastor!
Congratulations, raviyne!
River baptism, if I remember. Awesome! I asked Christ to accept me almost four years prior to my Baptism. I think it's a matter of feeling truly worthy of being buried with Him and raised to walk in a new life with Him. Something not to be taken lightly, for sure.
disciplelife
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 9/29/2008 6:58:24 PM
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raivyne
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When I say fully repent, I mean I stopped justifying the behavior in my life that I knew to be outside of God's will. I made a sound vow to walk the straight and narrow to the best of my ability and be open to the correction of God if I start to wander (instead of justifying as I did in the past). This does not mean I will always do the right thing... I may say something that unknowingly hurts another and I will have to ask forgiveness for that.
As far as I'm concerned salvation is comprised of three things - Accepting Jesus, Faith and Works (the ones Jesus laid out for us in the NT). I do not believe in once saved always saved, even though I was brought up in a church that taught that.
"not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven" when the Judgment Day comes, many will say to me, "Lord, Lord! In your name we spoke God's message, by your name we drove out many demons and performed many miracles!" Then I will say to them, "I never knew you. Get away from me, you wicked people!" (matt 7:21-23)
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame (Hebrews 6:4-6)
edit: thanks disciplelife! yes river baptism!
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Good – God = 0
In the dark? Follow the Son!
The Power of a Simple Gift! samaritanspurse.org
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 9/29/2008 7:32:13 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Full repentance implies a complete turning away from every sin in our life. If God demanded that of us, how could salvation be said to be not by works?
If God demands repentance prior to saving someone does that mean that the repentance saved them or that God's grace saved them?
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 9/29/2008 7:38:03 PM
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disciplelife
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame (Hebrews 6:4-6)
I'd have to agree, raivyne
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (Heb 10:26-27)
For this reason I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt 12:31-32)
Salvation is not a guarantee, it is a gift. A gift which too many people take for granted. I see it on here all the time!
disciplelife
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But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. (James 1:22)
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 9/29/2008 10:36:33 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
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I would have to voice that my concern the continued practice of bringing a lot of "feeling" based experiences into this particular discussion.
"I feel saved."
"I feel like..."
This subject becomes cloudy because we don't hold the entirety of the Bible address of this issue.
In dealing with this issue I have a few ground rules I have to stick to...
1. The Bible can't mean something different now than it did to it's original recipients.
2. The information we get from the Epistles are letters written to churches, we only get the answers to questions, while not knowing what the exact question was at times.
3. The recipients of the original manuscripts were given the information that they was specifically for them. They are not direct answers (at least not all passages) to our specific questions).
For instance, no where do we see that baptism isn't necessary specifically taught. However we do see that there are passages that baptism is specifically taught. Does the non specific cancel out the specific? Or do we glean these passages for all the truth that we can receive from them?
I for one fee l that we have to glean the truth from the full of Scripture.
Do I feel God works in the lives of those who have not been baptized, absolutely. I think God's saving work is best left for His understanding. As for handling Scripture correctly, I'll teach what is given through the whole of Scripture. That is all I'm authorized to do, as is the case for ANY true Christian.
Grace is an amazing thing. I won't tread on it by preaching my opinions.
No one can deny what Acts 2:38 says, they can explain it away with their opinion though.
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Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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