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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/18/2008 8:09:45 AM
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PromiseLander
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
#2) If Baptism is a necessary thing for salvation, then Jesus lied to the theif on the cross when He said: "Today, you will be with me in Paradise..." The fact that Jesus told the thief on the cross, "Today, you will be with me in Paradise. . ." has no bearing whatsoever on the necessity of baptism. Baptism wasn't even a requirement for believers until it was instituted on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. Besides I'm not so sure that the thief on the cross is a good example to use to tell people how they ought to be saved. Of course, Jesus didn't lie to the thief, and of course, the thief was saved.
So if we're playing with those rules now, then there are different ways of salvation for different people... Since prior to Jesus' resurrection, one needed only to believe in God - after the resurrection, we need to believe in God and go visit a dunking booth.
What happened to "I am God and I do not change." And "And Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness." Oh, here's a good one "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved..."
Well, I guess if baptism is necessary for salvation then it's going to be really hard for desert nomads to make it into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Yes, Baptism is a command to believers, but so is the great commision. How many people in here are baptised but have never led a soul to Jesus Christ? Or even attempted to do so??? Now THERE is a question: If you have no compassion for the lost that leads you to witness your faith, ARE YOU EVEN SAVED?
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/18/2008 9:04:47 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1183
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
So if we're playing with those rules now, then there are different ways of salvation for different people... Since prior to Jesus' resurrection, one needed only to believe in God - after the resurrection, we need to believe in God and go visit a dunking booth. Yes, there is a different way of salvation now than there was prior to Jesus resurrection.
quote:
What happened to "I am God and I do not change." And "And Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness." Oh, here's a good one "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved..." The "I am God and I do not change" quote is referring to God's character, not to his dealings with His creatures. Yes, Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness. Yes, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. . ." is a true statement. However, that verse should not be taken in isolation.
quote:
Well, I guess if baptism is necessary for salvation then it's going to be really hard for desert nomads to make it into the Kingdom of Heaven. If God made baptism necessary for salvation He would hardly make it impossible for people to be baptized. Besides even nomads in the desert come across and oasis now and then 
quote:
Yes, Baptism is a command to believers, but so is the great commision. How many people in here are baptised but have never led a soul to Jesus Christ? Or even attempted to do so??? Now THERE is a question: If you have no compassion for the lost that leads you to witness your faith, ARE YOU EVEN SAVED? A legitimate question and one that I'll leave up to God. Personally, I'm following Jesus's commission in every respect.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/18/2008 10:10:39 AM
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PromiseLander
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
So if we're playing with those rules now, then there are different ways of salvation for different people... Since prior to Jesus' resurrection, one needed only to believe in God - after the resurrection, we need to believe in God and go visit a dunking booth. Yes, there is a different way of salvation now than there was prior to Jesus resurrection.
quote:
What happened to "I am God and I do not change." And "And Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness." Oh, here's a good one "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved..." The "I am God and I do not change" quote is referring to God's character, not to his dealings with His creatures. Yes, Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness. Yes, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. . ." is a true statement. However, that verse should not be taken in isolation.
quote:
Well, I guess if baptism is necessary for salvation then it's going to be really hard for desert nomads to make it into the Kingdom of Heaven. If God made baptism necessary for salvation He would hardly make it impossible for people to be baptized. Besides even nomads in the desert come across and oasis now and then
quote:
Yes, Baptism is a command to believers, but so is the great commision. How many people in here are baptised but have never led a soul to Jesus Christ? Or even attempted to do so??? Now THERE is a question: If you have no compassion for the lost that leads you to witness your faith, ARE YOU EVEN SAVED? A legitimate question and one that I'll leave up to God. Personally, I'm following Jesus's commission in every respect.
(Thank you for not taking me to be mean spirited in my statements here - I am merely attempting to bring these statements to their logical conclusions in satire, but for a purpose, and with no ill intent)
So, you are following Jesus' commission in every respect? Good for you! So what's the spiritual condition of the people of Mpongwe, Zambia? How about Mfuwe? See, if we believe that Jesus commands baptism as a new dimension of salvation, then we must also see that since Jesus also commanded us to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature, that if we do not do this to the letter then we're not saved.
Here's the basis for why our salvation is not linked to baptism - to do so would be to add WORKS to what Christ has done for us. If we think that there is anything that we need to do to gain salvation in addition to the 3 points Jesus lists ("deny yourself, take up your cross daily, and follow me"), then we are saying that Jesus' sacrifice was not good enough, and we must add to it. Wow what blasphemy! Paul tells us that we "have been saved by Grace through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast..."
Yes, Baptism is a command to believers, so is the great commision. No one can fulfill the great commision to the letter by going into every nation on earth and preaching the gospel to every living soul, likewise, not everyone can be baptised. Neither are contingent on salvation - both are works.
Works are evidence of God's Grace, not steps to obtain it. If we are Baptised, it is because we believe - if we preach the Gospel, it is because we are saved...
NOWHERE in the Bible is it said "Be Baptised and believe..." It is always "Believe and be Baptised." The order is essential to understand that it is not a condition of faith in Jesus, but an outward sign of it.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/18/2008 11:26:26 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
So, you are following Jesus' commission in every respect? Good for you! So what's the spiritual condition of the people of Mpongwe, Zambia? How about Mfuwe? See, if we believe that Jesus commands baptism as a new dimension of salvation, then we must also see that since Jesus also commanded us to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature, that if we do not do this to the letter then we're not saved. Well, you got me!! I've never been to Africa to witness to people. I have, however, participated in bringing people to Jesus in several countries around the world. Just not in Africa. Does that mean I'm not fulfilling the Great Commission? I don't think so.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/18/2008 11:31:38 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Here's the basis for why our salvation is not linked to baptism - to do so would be to add WORKS to what Christ has done for us. If we think that there is anything that we need to do to gain salvation in addition to the 3 points Jesus lists ("deny yourself, take up your cross daily, and follow me"), then we are saying that Jesus' sacrifice was not good enough, and we must add to it. Wow what blasphemy! Paul tells us that we "have been saved by Grace through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast..." I don't accept the idea that Baptism is a work. The only work being done in baptism is by God. In addition, the one being baptized is completely passive. Besides it's not the actual act of baptism that saves, so even if it is a work, it's not the work of baptism that saves. Only God can save a person.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/18/2008 11:34:34 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
NOWHERE in the Bible is it said "Be Baptised and believe..." It is always "Believe and be Baptised." The order is essential to understand that it is not a condition of faith in Jesus, but an outward sign of it. I agree that belief must precede baptism. A person who doesn't believe will not desire baptism, and even if they did, they'd just be getting wet, so it wouldn't really be a baptism in the Christian sense of the word.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/18/2008 11:53:06 AM
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PromiseLander
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Here's the basis for why our salvation is not linked to baptism - to do so would be to add WORKS to what Christ has done for us. If we think that there is anything that we need to do to gain salvation in addition to the 3 points Jesus lists ("deny yourself, take up your cross daily, and follow me"), then we are saying that Jesus' sacrifice was not good enough, and we must add to it. Wow what blasphemy! Paul tells us that we "have been saved by Grace through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast..." I don't accept the idea that Baptism is a work. The only work being done in baptism is by God. In addition, the one being baptized is completely passive. Besides it's not the actual act of baptism that saves, so even if it is a work, it's not the work of baptism that saves. Only God can save a person.
Well, I meant that we perform the act of dunking - it's a work in that sense alone... (Christ does the actual cleansing at conversion) The act of Baptism though is an outward sign of our death to our sinful nature, a cleansing of the spirit, and a resurrection in Christ - all symbolic of course unless you hold the person under water for too long... 
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/18/2008 12:18:47 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Well, I meant that we perform the act of dunking - it's a work in that sense alone... (Christ does the actual cleansing at conversion) The act of Baptism though is an outward sign of our death to our sinful nature, a cleansing of the spirit, and a resurrection in Christ - all symbolic of course unless you hold the person under water for too long...
I think our death to our sinful nature, a cleansing of the spirit, and a resurrection in Christ all actually take place at the time we are baptized. God promised.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/18/2008 12:47:07 PM
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PromiseLander
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Well, I meant that we perform the act of dunking - it's a work in that sense alone... (Christ does the actual cleansing at conversion) The act of Baptism though is an outward sign of our death to our sinful nature, a cleansing of the spirit, and a resurrection in Christ - all symbolic of course unless you hold the person under water for too long...
I think our death to our sinful nature, a cleansing of the spirit, and a resurrection in Christ all actually take place at the time we are baptized. God promised.
But it can't or it would negate numerous people's salvation simply because they haven't been baptised.
Here's a couple more food for thought...
#1) If Baptism is necessary for salvation, why didn't Jesus baptise anyone?
#2) Paul teaches us that baptism is not a part of Gospel preaching when he said that: "Christ did not send me to baptise, but to preach the Gospel" (1 Cor. 1: 14-17)
#3) Paul argues that since there is only one God, there is only one way to salvation. (Romans 3: 28-30) If there is only one way to salvation, then it must have been the same way since Adam and remain unchanged...
#4) Paul tells us that justification has always been "by faith apart from the works of the law."
#5) Baptism is the New Testament parallel to Old Testament circumcision just as the Lord's Supper is the parallel to Passover. Since circumcision "is nothing" (1 Cor. 7:19) and did not save anyone, then how can Baptism?
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/18/2008 2:59:26 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
#1) If Baptism is necessary for salvation, why didn't Jesus baptise anyone? Perhaps because He is God. He did tell us to baptize people, though.
quote:
#2) Paul teaches us that baptism is not a part of Gospel preaching when he said that: "Christ did not send me to baptise, but to preach the Gospel" (1 Cor. 1: 14-17) The context of these verses is unity in the church. The fact that Paul was not sent to baptize, does not mean the no one is sent to baptize. Besides Paul did baptize people, but, apparently that wasn't his primary mission. Doesn't mean that baptism was unnecessary, though.
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#3) Paul argues that since there is only one God, there is only one way to salvation. (Romans 3: 28-30) If there is only one way to salvation, then it must have been the same way since Adam and remain unchanged... I don't think it necessarily follows that because there is one way to salvation that that one way has always been the same.
quote:
#4) Paul tells us that justification has always been "by faith apart from the works of the law." I don't know about "always" but certainly justification is "by faith apart from the works of the law." And since baptism isn't part of the law, it is excluded from works of law.
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#5) Baptism is the New Testament parallel to Old Testament circumcision just as the Lord's Supper is the parallel to Passover. Since circumcision "is nothing" (1 Cor. 7:19) and did not save anyone, then how can Baptism? I don't believe there's any parallel at all between Old Testament circumcision and New Testament baptism. I do agree that circumcision didn't save anyone, though.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/18/2008 3:23:07 PM
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PromiseLander
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Greatdivide46:
I appreciate the conversation, but as I have not been in on this entire thread I'll need a little clarification here if you would be so kind, and if you are repeating yourself, then my sincerest apologies and I do beg your patience...
I must ask that we get to the basis of this doctrinal question: can the concept of salvation based on water baptism be backed up by Scripture?
If indeed your position is that salvation requires water baptism and without such there is no salvation, then I do believe the onus is on you to scripturally document that.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/18/2008 4:08:12 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
I must ask that we get to the basis of this doctrinal question: can the concept of salvation based on water baptism be backed up by Scripture? I wouldn't word it quite the way you have, but, yes, I believe Scripture backs up the fact that salvation takes place when we are baptized.
quote:
If indeed your position is that salvation requires water baptism and without such there is no salvation, then I do believe the onus is on you to scripturally document that. There are a number of passages in the New Testament that link baptism and salvation, but I don't know as I'd go so far as to say the salvation is always impossible without baptism.
I'll give you the passages that I believe link salvation and baptism and perhaps we can develop them as we go along.
Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16; John 3:3-5; Acts 2:38-39; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3-4; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:26-27; Ephesians 5:25-27; Colossians 2:11-13; Titus 3:5; and 1 Peter 3:21.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/18/2008 4:30:14 PM
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PromiseLander
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
I must ask that we get to the basis of this doctrinal question: can the concept of salvation based on water baptism be backed up by Scripture? I wouldn't word it quite the way you have, but, yes, I believe Scripture backs up the fact that salvation takes place when we are baptized.
quote:
If indeed your position is that salvation requires water baptism and without such there is no salvation, then I do believe the onus is on you to scripturally document that. There are a number of passages in the New Testament that link baptism and salvation, but I don't know as I'd go so far as to say the salvation is always impossible without baptism.
I'll give you the passages that I believe link salvation and baptism and perhaps we can develop them as we go along.
Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16; John 3:3-5; Acts 2:38-39; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3-4; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:26-27; Ephesians 5:25-27; Colossians 2:11-13; Titus 3:5; and 1 Peter 3:21.
If we can word this a little differently I think it will be more accurate: "Baptism is linked to belief" Not "Baptism is linked to salvation." In other words, the Baptism is practiced as an outward sign of an inward change.
OK, I'll start with Mark 16:15-16. This is a great passage on linking Baptism with beleif, but notice that condemnation rests upon the one who does not believe, NOT the one who is not Baptised.
Here's an exerpt from the doctrinal statement of my Church:
We believe that two ordinances have been committed to the local church: Baptism and the Lord’s Supper. Christian baptism by immersion is the testimony of a believer showing forth his faith in the crucified, buried, and risen Lord and his union with Him in death to sin and resurrection to a new life. It is also a sign of fellowship and identification with the visible body of Christ (Acts 2:38-42; Acts 8:36-39; Romans 6:1-11). The Lord’s Supper is the commemoration of His death until He comes, and should always be proceeded by serious self-examination. We believe that, the elements of communion are representative of the flesh and blood of Christ (Luke 22:19-20; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 11:23-32).
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/19/2008 12:01:53 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1183
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
If we can word this a little differently I think it will be more accurate: "Baptism is linked to belief" Not "Baptism is linked to salvation." In other words, the Baptism is practiced as an outward sign of an inward change. The only problem I see with the above statement is my contention that the inward change takes place when we are baptized. Sure baptism is an outward sign of an inward change, but that inward change has most recently occured.
quote:
OK, I'll start with Mark 16:15-16. This is a great passage on linking Baptism with beleif, but notice that condemnation rests upon the one who does not believe, NOT the one who is not Baptised. Jesus said who believes and is baptized will be saved. Sounds like Jesus is linking belief and baptism with salvation.
And, of course the condemnation rests upon the one who does not believe, and not the one who is not baptised, because the one who does not believe is not gonna desire to be baptized. Therefore, Jesus must have thought that it was unnecessary to mention baptism in the negative phrase, assuming people would understand that an unbeliever wouldn't even think of baptism.
In the New Testament there is no category of people who believe but are not baptized.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/19/2008 8:26:11 AM
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PromiseLander
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Well, we both agree that the theif on the cross was saved and went to Heaven; Jesus said "today you will be with me in paradise." And of course we know that the theif was not baptised, and that Jesus doesn't lie...
This also goes for the miriad of believers before Jesus came and made propitiation for us: "And Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness." After Jesus made propitiation, His righteousness is imputed to us just as our sin was imputed to Him. Before Christ, we were required to believe in God for salvation, after Christ, we are required to believe in God for salvation. Old testament saints didn't go to Heaven straight away as Jesus had not yet paved the way, but were in "Abraham's Bosom." After Christ came, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," so now believers go straight to Heaven, not a holding pattern. (This is documented Scripturally, but for now I won't go into it as it isn't my main point.)
Now, in the Old Testament, there was the sign of circumcision to mark a believer. It was a sign of God's blessing upon His chosen people, and the mark was made upon the human instrument through which the generations would come. (We later learn that circumcision itself was nothing) Now, in the New Teatament, we are given the ordinance of Baptism. This act symbolizes our death, burrial, and resurrection in Christ and is done by all who believe.
God's covenant was not in the circumcision. Our salvation is not in the Baptism.
As we see throughout the Bible, although the physical marks of a believer may change, the requirement for salvation remains constant: BELIEVE GOD.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/19/2008 8:57:07 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGNAL: PromiseLander
As we see throughout the Bible, although the physical marks of a believer may change, the requirement for salvation remains constant: BELIEVE GOD.
Certainly belief in God is the fundamental requirement for salvation in both the Old and New Testaments. But we see throughout the Bible that belief alone was not sufficient.
I see no connection between physical circumcision and baptism. If you know of a Bible passage that makes that connection, could you post the reference for me?
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/19/2008 9:23:48 AM
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PromiseLander
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGNAL: PromiseLander
As we see throughout the Bible, although the physical marks of a believer may change, the requirement for salvation remains constant: BELIEVE GOD.
Certainly belief in God is the fundamental requirement for salvation in both the Old and New Testaments. But we see throughout the Bible that belief alone was not sufficient.
I see no connection between physical circumcision and baptism. If you know of a Bible passage that makes that connection, could you post the reference for me?
Yeah, actually, Paul equates baptism with circumsision in:
Colossians 2: 11-15
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins[c] of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/19/2008 9:25:10 AM
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PromiseLander
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGNAL: PromiseLander
As we see throughout the Bible, although the physical marks of a believer may change, the requirement for salvation remains constant: BELIEVE GOD.
Certainly belief in God is the fundamental requirement for salvation in both the Old and New Testaments. But we see throughout the Bible that belief alone was not sufficient.
I see no connection between physical circumcision and baptism. If you know of a Bible passage that makes that connection, could you post the reference for me?
Also, don't make the mistake of putting works with faith. By saying that "belief alone was not sufficient" I wonder if you are doing just that? Could you elaborate?
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/19/2008 11:43:18 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Yeah, actually, Paul equates baptism with circumsision in:
Colossians 2: 11-15
It is interesting that outside of this passage no Biblical passages connect baptism and circumcision in any way. Nevertheless, one passage should be enough to establish a doctrinal truth, if that one passage did indeed teach that truth. I don't believe this passages teaches a connection between physical circumcision and baptism.
There are two categories of Old Testament references to circumcision -- physical and figurative. Those figurative references to circumcision have no connection with physical circumcision at all. Jeremiah speaks of uncircumcised ears, meaning ears that would not hear the word of God. Others speak of the more basic condition of an uncircumcised heart, meaning a heart filled with sin and rebellion against God, whether Jew or Gentile (Ezek 44:7, 9). The Lord exhorted the sinners among Israel to circumcise their hearts (Deuteronomy 10:16; Jeremiah 4:4).
The important thing to notice here is that there is no connection between physical circumcision and the examples of spiritual circumcision that I've given. One does not represent the other. In fact, the relationship between them is incidental.
The only Old Testament circumcision to which baptism has any relation is the spiritual circumcision in the examples I've given. Colossians 2:11 speaks of such a circumcision, a change in the inner spiritual condition. In the Old Testament this kind of change was limited to what people could bring about for themselves. That's why the Israelites were exhorted to circumcise their own hearts. But according to Deuteronomy 30:6 there would come a time when God Himself would circumcise the hearts of penitent believers. This I believe is the "circumcision made without hands" of which the Colossian passage speaks. No reference to physical circumcision whatsoever.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/19/2008 11:52:21 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1183
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Also, don't make the mistake of putting works with faith. By saying that "belief alone was not sufficient" I wonder if you are doing just that? Could you elaborate?
In the Old Testament God set up an elaborate sacrificial system that He expected the people to participate in. Do you really think that God would look favorably on someone who insisted that the sacrifices were unnecessary -- that all you have to do is believe and God will save you?
James tells us that "Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world" (James 1:27). Do you really think God is going to look favorably upon someone who says, "I believe. Therefore, since I believe, I'm saved, so I don't have to visit orphans and widows and I don't have to keep myself unstained from the world.'?
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/19/2008 12:07:57 PM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 358
Joined: 1/14/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Also, don't make the mistake of putting works with faith. By saying that "belief alone was not sufficient" I wonder if you are doing just that? Could you elaborate?
In the Old Testament God set up an elaborate sacrificial system that He expected the people to participate in. Do you really think that God would look favorably on someone who insisted that the sacrifices were unnecessary -- that all you have to do is believe and God will save you?
James tells us that "Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world" (James 1:27). Do you really think God is going to look favorably upon someone who says, "I believe. Therefore, since I believe, I'm saved, so I don't have to visit orphans and widows and I don't have to keep myself unstained from the world.'?
Well, obviously God commands us to do certain things - feed the hungry, take care of widows, ect... But these are outward signs of the fact that we are Christians. We are not saved because we feed the hungry.
Old Testament sacrifices were a picture of things to come. They were to be a picture of the one great sacrifice that Christ would make for the remission of our sins. God Himself said concerning sacrifices: “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?” Says the LORD. Isaiah 1:11. Now, God was of course referring to a nation whose sacrifices became superficial, but if the people were denied their means of salvation, then how could they be redeemed? Salvation was not in the sacrifice. Sacrifices were an outward expression of an inward change.
Look at it this way and see if your conscience still permits it.
If we add ANYTHING to the sacrifice that Christ made for us, (even a command given to us by God) then we are saying that Jesus didn't do enough.
And WHO ARE WE that we can bring anything to the table when it comes to Salvation anyway? Are not even our good deeds as filthy rags before a just God? For we know that even a good deed done by an unrighteous person is sin.
"Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to thy cross I cling..."
"Just as I am without one plea..."
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/19/2008 1:04:05 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1183
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Well, obviously God commands us to do certain things - feed the hungry, take care of widows, ect... But these are outward signs of the fact that we are Christians. We are not saved because we feed the hungry. Quite true. We are not saved because we feed the hungry.
quote:
Old Testament sacrifices were a picture of things to come. They were to be a picture of the one great sacrifice that Christ would make for the remission of our sins. God Himself said concerning sacrifices: “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?” Says the LORD. Isaiah 1:11. Now, God was of course referring to a nation whose sacrifices became superficial, but if the people were denied their means of salvation, then how could they be redeemed? Salvation was not in the sacrifice. Sacrifices were an outward expression of an inward change.
Yes, the sacrifices in the Old Testament were a picture of things to come. That's why God would not look favorably upon someone who said belief was enough and they didn't have to do the sccrifices. Woulda messed up His picture, you see
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/19/2008 1:07:28 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1183
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Look at it this way and see if your conscience still permits it.
If we add ANYTHING to the sacrifice that Christ made for us, (even a command given to us by God) then we are saying that Jesus didn't do enough. No, we wouldn't be saying the Jesus didn't do enough. If God chooses to save us when we are baptized, that doesn't take anything at all away from what Jesus did. His sacrifice is still enough and the benefits of His sacrifice are applied to us when we are baptized. Baptism isn't something extra that we do to get saved, to make up for what was lacking in Christ's sacrifice.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/19/2008 1:32:23 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 576
Joined: 12/22/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide
In the New Testament there is no category of people who believe but are not baptized.
greatdivide,
I do think this is the crux of the matter. There are folks here who contend that one who believes will subsequently be baptized in water, as an outward sign of an inward grace. Then there are those who say that salvation occurs at the time one is water baptized, and this is an outward sign of an inward grace. Of course there are various intricacies involved within both of these belief systems, which I won't expound on at the moment.
But the main point is that all Christians should be and will be baptized with water. (excluding, of course, those who through no fault of their own encounter death and are not able) IOW, o | | |
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