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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 4:51:54 PM
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dwtramm
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
ORIGINAL: dwtramm
I can honestly say that during my crisis of faith God was so gracious and merciful to me.
Its one of the experiences that you have that you are glad you went through, but at the same time you would never want too go through it again, nor would you want to see anyone go through it either.
The good news was, in my anger, hurt, confusion, and frustration I never forsook God's Word. I turned to it in my own dark night of the soul.
He picked up the broken pieces....piece by piece, and molded my heart.
This gives me hope.
One of the things I am struggling with right now, is wondering if I could have done more to knock some sense into my brother. He wasn't really interested in hearing what his younger sister had to say. The times I did try to talk to him he wouldn't listen, or he changed his story so that his situation wouldn't look so bad.
He wasn't honest with me about how bad things were getting in his life.
I keep telling myself that he was responsible for his own decisions, that he was the head of his household and it was up to him to seek Biblical counsel.
But it is still very painful.
I can only speak from personal experience here, I had some people in my life warn me, but because I felt I was right in my beliefs and actions, I ignored them.
It wasn't until my whole world, both theologically and literally fell apart that I began to seek the Lord for His answers and not the idol that I had made of Him in the image of my beliefs.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 9:44:58 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2998
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From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
I keep telling myself that he was responsible for his own decisions, that he was the head of his household and it was up to him to seek Biblical counsel.
But it is still very painful.
First of all, it is painfull. Secondly, your brother was responsible for his decisions. Thirdly, don't waste your pain but use it to tell others of WOF lies.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/26/2008 8:25:10 PM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 222
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mattumanu
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
A few years ago, a friend gave me a book and asked me to read it and tell her what I thought about it. She had found it at her daughter's house, when the daughter was in the hospital having cancer surgery.
The book was Florence Scovill Shinn's The Game of Life and How to Play It.
It did not profess to be WOF--it professed to be metaphysics--but as far as "name-it-and-claim-it" it was there. I cannot recall the percentage of the book that was directly quoting the Bible, but it was large; it was, however, not even close to the truth.
The basic idea was that any prayer was a "demand" of God, and that He was obliged to answer favorably (in the prayer's eyes). For that reason, she also cautioned against negative words or thoughts, as God was bound to give one ehateer one asked for. It made God into someone to be ordered about like a servant.
I am not sure if that is what the current WOF teaches, but the idea that I could obligate God to *anything* was pretty repellant.
From what I've gathered so far, hardcore WOF is metaphysics. It's been said that Kenneth Hagin lifted large passages of E.W. Kenyon's work for his own books, and Kenyon was a Christian Scientist.
what an interesting thread
who said kenyon was a christian scientist? and what is their proof?
what kenyon wrote and taught is diffrent than what mary baker eddy wrote and taught.
kenyon was out of the faith-cure movement, which I believe was a Methodist movement, and it pre-dates the metaphysical cults of christian science [(1890) it exploded in 1910] by many years. mary baker eddy was a student of p. quimby. (new thought) ie sickness is an illusion, it is not real.
most Christians today are not aware of all of the recordings throughout church history of healing's and miracles performed, in Jesus name. and they are written records of church history.
to give you an example of a major diffrence between what mary baker eddy taught and kenyon taught, and this should settle it right here, the subject is sin.
kenyon & hagin taught sickness entered the world because of the fall of man due to sin. ie sickness is a reality and so is sin.
christian science calls sin "an illusion with no basis in fact" just as they consider sickness an illusion of the mind, like p. quimby did.
around 1913 dl moody's brother in law, fleming revell, published a book, by e.l. house, trying to clarify the differences between the healing within the cults, and divine healing.
but anyhow I do have a few books from kenyon, let me quote what he said about christian science, unity, and the metaphysical cults, I will quote from his book "the two kinds of faith" page 17 the quote will be in blue
before we take up revelation faith, we should notice the diffrent kinds of faith that men have in Jesus today.
Christian science, unity, and the other metaphysical and philosophical teachers of today do not believe that God is a person.
They will tell you that he is a perfect mind, but he has no location.
it is just a great universal mind which finds its home in every individual. He has no headquarters.
It is a mind without a brain, without a personality.
They do not believe in sin as Paul taught it in the revelation given to him.
They do not believe that Jesus died for our sins, but that he died as a martyr.
They do not believe that He had a literal resurrection, a physical resurrection, but as one puts it, a metaphysical resurrection (whatever that means)
If God is not a person and Jesus did not put sin away, then who is Jesus and what is the value of our faith in Him?
One of them calls Him "the way-shower". He is not a way-shower. HE IS THE WAY!
Their faith in Jesus and their faith in God is, after all, faith in themselves and what they inherently have within theselves.
It has caused mighty changes in them, but it has never produced a new creation, nor brought them into real fellowship with the Father God, nor given them righteousness.
What is the faith that the modernists have today?
It is not faith in Jesus as a substitute, for they do not believe in the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ.
It is not faith in God the Father as unveiled to us by Jesus. It does not produce a new creation.
It does not save the lost.
granted many today proclaim that kenyon and hagin taught methaphysical beliefs, one can only make that acusation if they have no knowledge of the teachings of both groups. because they differ like day and night, the only common ground is healing, but the way to receive healing and the teaching on healing even greatly differs, also keep in mind satan is a copycat or imitator of God.
Sorry that this is a long post, but I wanted to try and clear up the diffrence between kenyon and Christian science, hope it has been of some help.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/26/2008 8:51:59 PM
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earthless
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There is no denying that much of Faith theology is derived directly from metaphysics. Some of the substance, style, and scams endemic to the movement, however, can be traced primarily to the teachings and practices of certain post-World War II faith healers and revivalists operating within Pentecostal circles.
With regard to substance, for example, both Kenneth Copeland and Kenneth Hagin point to T. L. Osborn and William Branham as true men of God who greatly influenced their lives and ministries.
Of course, Osborn himself has consistently followed E. W. Kenyon's Scripture-twisting antics, and Branham has (among other things) denounced the doctrine of the Trinity as coming directly from the Devil.
Unfortunately, Hagin and Copeland are not alone in affirming Branham; Faith proponent Benny Hinn gives him a hearty "thumbs up" as well.
When it comes to style, however, Hinn gravitates more toward such faith healers as Aimee Semple McPherson and Kathryn Kuhlman. In addition, Hinn has given his endorsement to notorious revivalist A. A. Allen, who was truly a huckster if there ever was one — which brings us to scams.
Faith teachers such as Robert Tilton and his female counterpart, Marilyn Hickey, have copied many of the scams pioneered by Pentecostal preachers such as Oral Roberts and A. A. Allen. In fact, Tilton and Hickey have managed to exceed even their predecessors' outrageous ploys. This is hard to believe when one considers what sort of schemes they had to outdo.
Roberts is the man who claimed that Jesus appeared and told him God had chosen him to find the cure for cancer. In a lengthy appeal, Roberts avowed that the Lord told him, "I would not have had you and your partners build the 20-story research tower unless I was going to give you a plan that will attack cancer."
Roberts then said that Jesus instructed him to tell his partners that "this is not Oral Roberts asking for the money but their Lord." (The project was completed, but has since been "shut down and sold to a group of investors for commercial development." Not surprisingly, no cure for cancer was ever found.)
Twisted texts, make-believe miracles, and a counterfeit Christ are all common denominators of the Faith movement's leading teachers. And, as all who look into the matter will clearly see, it all began with the metaphysical teachings of Essek William Kenyon.
A lot more can and has already been said in the 87 pages of this and other Word of Faith related threads.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/26/2008 9:14:54 PM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 222
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
There is no denying that much of Faith theology is derived directly from metaphysics.
lay out the metaphysical beliefs, another words kindly educate us with knowledge of the metaphysical religions. what do they teach? define the various groups, and there founders?
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/26/2008 9:27:58 PM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 222
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
There is no denying that much of Faith theology is derived directly from metaphysics.
lay out the metaphysical beliefs, another words kindly educate us with knowledge of the metaphysical religions. what do they teach? define the various groups, and there founders?
If we know the complete substance of an apple and the complete substance of an orange, then we are qualified to say that an apple is in fact an orange. if we do not know the substance of both then all we can do is repeat something we have heard said, and try to convince others that it is truth, when in fact it is not.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/26/2008 9:45:52 PM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 222
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the topic of prayer:
Mary Baker Eddy said "the only value of prayer was on the individuals mind. Physical sickness was an error of mortal mind," she said that because that is what P. Quimby taught her, she claimed to have received a healing from Quimby.
sin
The metaphysical cults recognize no personal devil or demons, no Biblical fall of humanity sin to the Christian scientist is an illusion of the mind with no basis in fact. another words there is no such thing as sin.
The metaphysical religion does not have a God, God is in everything, though they speak of a mother earth
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/26/2008 9:53:03 PM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 222
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
, it all began with the metaphysical teachings of Essek William Kenyon.
let me make it easier what did Essek Kenyon teach
that was metaphysical?
please quote his words, book and page, thank you
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/26/2008 10:32:22 PM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 222
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
, it all began with the metaphysical teachings of Essek William Kenyon.
let me make it easier what did Essek Kenyon teach
that was metaphysical?
please quote his words, book and page, thank you
let me quote from Father and His family, by E.w.Kenyon page 151 concerning the new birth, on pages 147-148 he is talking about John 3:1-8
Man's part
It will be interesting for us to note now the part man has to do in this wonderful operation known as the new birth.
First, he hears the message.
Hearing the message in the scriptural sense means understanding it.
He comes to know that he is spiritually dead, a child of the devil without God and without hope.
you notice we do not use the word "believe" or the word "repent".
Believing is actually acting on the Word-when you believe or act on the Word you repent, and you do not repent unless you believe the Word.
Second, he hears the promise of the incarnation and the substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus of Nazareth on his behalf.
Third, he takes Jesus Christ as his savior and confesses him before the world as his Lord, and when he does this, God takes him to be his child.
All this is very simple and easily understood.
The moment that this is done God makes him a new creation, old things pass away, all things become new, and all things have been wrought of God.
and contrary to what some say, e.w.kenyon taught the incarnation was the virgin birth, if you'd like that quote I'll give it to you, book and page
sorry, nothing metaphysical there
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/26/2008 10:47:10 PM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 222
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Not surprisingly, no cure for cancer was ever found.)
God cures cancer, would you like a quote, from History of the united brethern, page 17 (time of writting 1730) to believe against hope is the root of the gift of miracles, and I owe this testimony to our beloved church, that apostolic powers are there manifested. We have had undeniable proofs thereof in the unequivocal discovery of things, persons, and circumstances, which could not have been humanly discovered, in the healings of maladies in themselves incurable, such as cancers, consumptions, when the patient was in the agonies of death.
I got a ton of quotes on this topic, from church records throughout the centuries, why God has healed people of cancer when I have prayed.
We serve a Great God!!!!
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/26/2008 10:51:23 PM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 222
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Not surprisingly, no cure for cancer was ever found.)
God cures cancer, would you like a quote, from History of the united brethren, page 17 (time of writing 1730) to believe against hope is the root of the gift of miracles, and I owe this testimony to our beloved church, that apostolic powers are there manifested. We have had undeniable proofs thereof in the unequivocal discovery of things, persons, and circumstances, which could not have been humanly discovered, in the healings of maladies in themselves incurable, such as cancers, consumptions, when the patient was in the agonies of death.
I got a ton of quotes on this topic, from church records throughout the centuries, why God has healed people of cancer when I have prayed.
We serve a Great God!!!!
1730 was long before metaphysical cults, that united brethren writing sounds like a word faith writing.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/26/2008 11:06:42 PM
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gennaoanothen
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Let me make it too easy,
give me any or all orthodox Christian doctrine, and I shall quote e.w.kenyon, book and page, how is that?
and we shall see if there is anything methaphysical in there, let us be good bereans, shall we.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/26/2008 11:07:58 PM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 222
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Good night and God Bless
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/27/2008 7:44:36 AM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 222
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen
quote:
ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
, it all began with the metaphysical teachings of Essek William Kenyon.
let me make it easier what did Essek Kenyon teach
that was metaphysical?
please quote his words, book and page, thank you
let me quote from Father and His family, by E.w.Kenyon page 151 concerning the new birth, on pages 147-148 he is talking about John 3:1-8
Man's part
It will be interesting for us to note now the part man has to do in this wonderful operation known as the new birth.
First, he hears the message.
Hearing the message in the scriptural sense means understanding it.
He comes to know that he is spiritually dead, a child of the devil without God and without hope.
you notice we do not use the word "believe" or the word "repent".
Believing is actually acting on the Word-when you believe or act on the Word you repent, and you do not repent unless you believe the Word.
Second, he hears the promise of the incarnation and the substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus of Nazareth on his behalf.
Third, he takes Jesus Christ as his savior and confesses him before the world as his Lord, and when he does this, God takes him to be his child.
All this is very simple and easily understood.
The moment that this is done God makes him a new creation, old things pass away, all things become new, and all things have been wrought of God.
and contrary to what some say, e.w.Kenyon taught the incarnation was the virgin birth, if you'd like that quote I'll give it to you, book and page
sorry, nothing metaphysical there
the incarnation according to Kenyon
father and his family, page 98
Could the Son of God have been incarnate if his body had been conceived by natural generation?
Would it have been possible for God to have come into a child born of natural generation and dwell in the child and be incarnate?
We can not see how this is possible, for Paul tells us that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" and that death (spiritual) has entered into all men for that all have sinned.
I f Jesus had been born of natural generation and God had come into him, He would have been a fallen spirit, a being subject to the devil with God dwelling in him; that would not be an incarnation
two major orthodox doctrines listed here salvation and incarnation, Kenyon is in agreement with correct orthodox teaching, nothing metaphysical there, keep in mind metaphysical =God is in everything, everything is God, there is no devil, there is no sin, therefore no need to be saved
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/27/2008 10:41:42 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6355
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
There is no denying that much of Faith theology is derived directly from metaphysics.
lay out the metaphysical beliefs, another words kindly educate us with knowledge of the metaphysical religions. what do they teach? define the various groups, and there founders?
I believe I have done that already in this (and other threads). Have you read this entire thread? Sincerely asking.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/27/2008 11:24:23 AM
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mcleod
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Say earthless, I would like to know would you put Copeland in the same mind set as the Ladder Day Saints? Because he was talking like he had the power of God and he... I believe even said recently on his broadcast. That because of the blessing we were equal to the Son Jesus).
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/27/2008 12:36:51 PM
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gennaoanothen
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
There is no denying that much of Faith theology is derived directly from metaphysics.
lay out the metaphysical beliefs, another words kindly educate us with knowledge of the metaphysical religions. what do they teach? define the various groups, and there founders?
I believe I have done that already in this (and other threads). Have you read this entire thread? Sincerely asking.
no, I have not read the entire thread, but I do look forward to reading it, and I will try to examine the thread to see if in fact anyone has presented proof the teachings of kenyon align with the teachings of metaphysical teachings and if that proof has been posted in the thread,
but I am sure you would agree that the writings of kenyon I have posted thus far are orthodox, and does not agree with metaphysical teaching.
for the sake of time I will try to narrow it down to kenyon's teaching, and hagin basically taught closely to kenyon, I would admit some currently have probably gone beyond kenyons teaching, in the advent they would not be orthodox per-se, would not make kenyon, not orthodox.
and please if you know personally of any of kenyons writings that would in fact align with metaphysical teachings, present it, and I shall examine it.
In all honesty metaphysical is far from orthodox Christianity.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/27/2008 3:02:09 PM
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golfjack
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I guess there has been much discussion about WOF preachers and teachers. Yes, as a Wof preacher, Christians are entitled to their opinions, but not their own set of facts. Do you see what I am driving at? The question is, Do Wof preachers teach from God's Word or not? Let me give you an example: How does one interpret Mark 11:23-24? Notice the word sayeth is mentioned three times. Do we not have to use our mouths to be saved ( Romans 10:9-10).
Peace, Golfjack
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/27/2008 3:18:42 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
I guess there has been much discussion about WOF preachers and teachers. Yes, as a Wof preacher, Christians are entitled to their opinions, but not their own set of facts. Do you see what I am driving at? The question is, Do Wof preachers teach from God's Word or not? Let me give you an example: How does one interpret Mark 11:23-24? Notice the word sayeth is mentioned three times. Do we not have to use our mouths to be saved ( Romans 10:9-10).
Peace, Golfjack
Golfjack, I don't think any one would argue about true faith as being the issue. It is what lies behind that faith. Like a lot of those on the boob tube. Will tell you that if you plant a seed (money). That you will recieve a get harvest of money. Which would and does appear to be a me..me and all about me religion. What can I gain in this world for myself.
Which I not saying you are. But let's look at some of those who live in homes which are worth more than a million dollars or drive cars which run around over 100 thousand dollars. This is the problem with them. Give me the money so that I may have a lavish life style and you to can also life a lavish life style when God pours out his blessing on you.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/27/2008 7:43:20 PM
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golfjack
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Mcleod. Jesus was endowed with the Holy Spirit when He was bapptized with fire and cloven tongues. We as believers have the same Spirit as Jesus did. Same power to preach and wiith healings following. We can all have the same power. In other words, I can do anything Jesus did while on earth. Therefore, Coperland was right on. You see, Biblical facts and not just opinions. Forgive me, for not having enough time to give you scripture to prove my points.
Peace, Golfjack
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/27/2008 7:53:45 PM
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dwtramm
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quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
Mcleod. Jesus was endowed with the Holy Spirit when He was bapptized with fire and cloven tongues.
Peace, Golfjack
Please so from Scripture where Jesus was baptized with fire and cloven tongues.
Thanks.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/27/2008 7:58:48 PM
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gennaoanothen
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quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
I guess there has been much discussion about WOF preachers and teachers. Yes, as a Wof preacher, Christians are entitled to their opinions, but not their own set of facts. Do you see what I am driving at? The question is, Do Wof preachers teach from God's Word or not? Let me give you an example: How does one interpret Mark 11:23-24? Notice the word sayeth is mentioned three times. Do we not have to use our mouths to be saved ( Romans 10:9-10).
Peace, Golfjack
greetings golfjack
I agree the Word does say, believe in our heart, and confess with our mouths.
Matthew 10: 32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
welcome to the forum
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/27/2008 8:54:41 PM
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golfjack
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I see that most recognize that Kenyon's teachings line up with God's Word. The baptism of Jesus with fire is mentioned in Matt. 3:11-12.
I was taught at Rhema Bible Inst. Many of the classes were taught by the late Kenneth Hagin. I found him to be the most humbelist Christian I have ever met. Therefore, Papa dad has taught me much. If anyone knows about WOF, I should. Feel free to ask me questions. OH, by the way, Hagin went to TBN and told some of the Preachers they were too money minded and if they kept it up, they would lose their gifts of the Spirit. Having said that, there are some very good preachers on TBN. I like Kenneth Copeland, Fredrick Price, Joel Osteen, and some others. By the way, I have made it a practice not to tear down someone's miinistry, not less I feel it is heresy. Carlton Pearson is a good example of one who has drifted away.
Peace, Golfjack
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/27/2008 9:05:28 PM
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dwtramm
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quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
The baptism of Jesus with fire is mentioned in Matt. 3:11-12.
Wrong. Jesus is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit and fire, it doesn't say He was baptized with fire.
Here is the passage.
quote:
Matthew 3:11-12 ESV - 11 "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."
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