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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 1:14:09 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 904
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
earthless,
I well try to type out as much of it as I can.... and hopefully not butcher it much due to time constraints. Not everything will be in chronological order:
That was an amazing testimony earthless, many of those things I did not know happened. Shocking to say the least. How anyone could sit through that I don't know.
What happens when you believe that stuff and never get what you demand of God? Is that when they tell you your faith is not strong enough, to give more money, and then it will come to pass?
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 9:56:50 AM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1498
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
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Something EVERYone, especially supporters of the WoF cult MUST SEE
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 7:59:36 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 608
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
Something EVERYone, especially supporters of the WoF cult MUST SEE
Indeed, it should be required viewing. i'd never heard of Justin peters before, he's very solid.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 11:54:55 AM
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mcleod
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Yes this is what I have been writing about how corrupted they are in the interpretating the scriptures. For they put themselves on a pedastel and their close friends who share in the preversion of their thoughts. Paula White is now talking to people whom watch her show. That they need to help others who have need. Which sounds all fine and dandy. Until you see her fruit and it is by the backs of others that she has help others. Ask her to give up one of her houses or rich gifts. She has recieved and low and behold, She will sing a different tune about it. Say possible the same old story. Well God wants me to have this because God's children should have the great and fioner things in life.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:39:36 PM
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earthless
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'hellochurch' is saying that Kenneth Copeland preaches the truth of God's Word. I would like to know how he reconciles Kenneth's failed/false prophecies and his heretical teaching.
Below are just a SMALL snippet of his blasphemous teachings. The most disturbing one of this small sample of three is that Jesus did not atone for our sin on the cross:
quote:
"Jesus went into hell to free mankind from the penalty of Adam's high treason...When His blood poured out it did not atone. Jesus spent three horrible days and nights in the bowels of this earth getting back for you and me our rights with God." (Ken Copeland, Personal letter from Ken Copeland, Ft. Worth Texas, March 12, 1979. (D. R. McConnell, A Different Gospel, page 118)
quote:
"The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, 'Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don't let your tradition trip you up.' He said, 'Think this way - a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain.' And I threw my Bible down...like that. I said, 'What?' He said, 'A born-again man defeated Satan, the firstborn of many brethren defeated him.'
He said, 'You are the very image, the very copy of that one.' I said, 'Goodness, gracious sakes alive!' And I began to see what had gone on in there, and I said, 'Well now you don't mean, you couldn't dare mean, that I could have done the same thing?' He said, 'Oh yeah, if you'd had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could have done the same thing, 'cause you're a reborn man too." (Dr. John MacArthur, "Charismatic Chaos," page 337. Kenneth Copeland, "Substitution and Identification")
quote:
"I was shocked when I found out who the biggest failure in the Bible actually is...The biggest one in the whole Bible is God...I mean, He lost His top-ranking, most anointed angel; the first man He ever created; the first woman He ever created; the whole earth and all the fullness therein; a third of the angels, at least - that's a big loss, man....Now, the reason you don't think of God as a failure is He never said He's a failure. And you're not a failure till you say you're one." (Ken Copeland, Audio-Clip "Christianity in Crisis," Hank Hanegraaff)
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 10:53:39 PM
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csl7037
Posts: 1743
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Thank you earthless for sharing all that - it explains a lot . . . like how you have such a clear understanding of what's really going on here!
quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
That was an amazing testimony earthless, many of those things I did not know happened. Shocking to say the least. How anyone could sit through that I don't know.
What happens when you believe that stuff and never get what you demand of God? Is that when they tell you your faith is not strong enough, to give more money, and then it will come to pass?
I was raised in somewhat hyper WOF and, I can tell you, and I've said before...reality is the only thing that can snap someone out of it. Like when real life happens, and it stinks, you have to face the fact that your magic words don't work!
I do think God humors us to a certain degree. And that's not just true of WOF, the Baptists surely don't have it ALL right. But God humors us, we're human, we're His children. But there comes a point where, if we haven't grown up or grown past it, He's got to let us be challenged in our immaturity or selfishness.
At that point, it's a clear point where you have to decide, like you said, to give more money or do whatever crazy thing the prophet du jour is telling you to do - obstinately choosing to hold on to what simply does not hold up to scripture...or you go down a road that has you question everything you were ever taught or believed. And when you're raised in this, you have to question EVERYTHING. You don't just question WOF teachings, you question the very existence and nature of God. And that's something you have to walk through to get out of this delusion. Some people are able to hold on to something at the core, something Biblical, and come to a more solid (but still imperfect) understanding of God and reconcile what was correct and what was from man (or from hell). It has taken me a long time to reconcile all the downright WRONG stuff I grew up believing, and I'm still wading through a lot of it. And there are people who simply fall away - I came very very close to giving it all up and being one of those people. This is a dangerous business! It's not a harmless "difference" in theology. These false teachers cross a line that puts souls in peril.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/28/2008 8:38:58 AM
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Soxfan
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Texas religious empire under scrutiny over its tangle of kinship
"...Kenneth Copeland, 71, is a pioneer of the prosperity gospel, which teaches that believers are destined to flourish spiritually, physically and financially — and share the wealth with others.
His ministry's 1,500-acre campus outside Fort Worth is testament to his success. It includes a church, private airstrip, a hangar for the ministry's aircraft and a $6 million, church-owned mansion."
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/28/2008 9:12:43 AM
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dwtramm
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
Texas religious empire under scrutiny over its tangle of kinship
"...Kenneth Copeland, 71, is a pioneer of the prosperity gospel, which teaches that believers are destined to flourish spiritually, physically and financially — and share the wealth with others.
His ministry's 1,500-acre campus outside Fort Worth is testament to his success. It includes a church, private airstrip, a hangar for the ministry's aircraft and a $6 million, church-owned mansion."
My mother lives about 10 minutes from their ministry property. While there are not many buildings there that are that impressive, the land is. You could put the entire town I live in on their property! You cannot see the mansion from the road. It is hidden by the trees. It is interesting to see the difference of the ministry property and the town of Newark. Newark is a not that impressive of a town. Rather old, and just plain ugly in my opinion, then you drive up to the Copeland compound, that is the way I'd describe it, with the high fences and the security driving around, and it is quite impressive. When Mom first moved by there, we went and just toured their ministry center. They even have a starbucks located within there.
They are really proud of the new airplane that they own. They have a huge picture of it right when you go in and it is the first thing they talk about on the tour.
I could say a few more things about the place, but I will stop there. The last time I drove by, there were doing some additions to their church building on the property.
I guess I hear a little bit more of what goes on their than normal because the block my Mom lives on their are a few people who attend the church there, as well as some who used too. My mother doesn't attend. She is not WOF, thank the Lord. But she has built relationship with a few people within the neighborhood that are, and some who have become disenchanted with WOF theology.
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[Deleted] - 7/29/2008 7:01:22 PM
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 7:12:38 PM
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earthless
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The words quoted by Jesus in John 10:34 are from Psalm 82:6. The pertinent section reads as follows:
quote:
I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High. Nevertheless you will die like men And fall like any one of the princes."
There has been much debate about whom "you" refers - there are three common suggestions: 1) Angelic beings; 2) the Children of Israel at Sinai when they received the Law; 3) human judges or rulers who have judged unjustly.
Many who argue that ancient Israel practiced a form of polytheism or henotheism argue for option #1. They see this verse preserving an old tradition in which the pagan gods are judged by God.
The problem with this view is that Jesus' appeal to this verse presupposes that it refers to human beings; if it refers to angels, the Jews could rightly ignore Jesus' defense, for He is not an angel claiming the title "God," but a man (v. 33).
Jerome Neyrey makes an interesting case for option #2 ("I Said Ye Are Gods:" Psalm 82:6 and John 10). Neyrey argues that extra-Biblical Jewish literature from shortly after the time of Christ indicates that the Jews thought that the Children of Israel had, in a sense, become "gods" when they received the Law.
However, they almost immediately fell into idolatry and lost their divine status. The chief problem I see with Neyrey's otherwise provocative article is that there is simply no example of the Israelites being called "gods" in the Bible, and Jesus' argument is based specifically on Scripture which "cannot be broken."
In my view, Jesus' reference is unlikely, on the one hand, to rely on Psalm 82, and on the other, on a Midrashic interpretation of it.
Option number three is, on the whole, the most likely - in the immediate context, the "sons of the Most High" are said to judge, albeit unjustly.
There is probable Biblical precedent for calling human judges "gods" (Exodus 22:8, 9; Judges 5:8,9). The judges were "gods" in the sense that the "word of God came" to them as a Divine commission to perform a duty on earth that ultimately belongs only to God.
The judges, then, parallel Jesus - though to a lesser degree; for He received a Divine commission par excellence and every work He does is that of the Father.
The Jews have asked Jesus to plainly say if He is the Messiah. We may summarize His response as follows: "You should already know the answer to this question: My words and my works tell you plainly who I am. The reason you don't know who I am is because you do not believe. My sheep hear my voice and know me, but you are not my sheep. I grant eternal life to my sheep, and no one can snatch from my hand those that the Father gives me. My Father is greater than all and no one can snatch my sheep from my Father's hand - my Father and I are One!"
At this point, the Jews understand that Jesus is making exclusive claims of equality with God, which (unless true!) are blasphemous. Jesus asks which works He has done that warrant the charge of blasphemy. The Jews reply that they are not stoning Him for His works, but for the words He has just spoken. Jesus replies as follows:
"The Scripture says that God calls the judges in Psalm 82 'gods' on the basis of their divine commission. Thus, since the Scripture cannot be wrong, it is not blasphemy for one with a divine commission to have a divine title. I do not have a commission like the judges; I have an exclusive commission from my Father, for He set me apart and sent me into the world - to do the works you have seen, to say the words I have said, to grant eternal life to my sheep, to hold them fast in the same way my Father does, for He and I are One. Therefore, I have not committed blasphemy! But even if you persist in denying my words, you should believe on the basis of my works, for they prove that the Father is in Me in the same way I am in Him: we are One!"
The Jews, of course, do not believe Jesus - not because they misunderstand Him (such would suggest that Jesus was ineffective in communicating His identity, or was being consciously deceptive) - but because they lack faith.
They are not Jesus' sheep, as He has said. Thus, their rejection of Him lies in denial and self-deception, the root cause of all who reject God and His Christ (Romans 1:18-19).
Now that we have that passage in context we know that Kenneth Copeland's teaching that we are "little gods" is biblically incorrect. Furthermore, Copeland and other Word of Faith proponents are heretically wrong when they teach that anyone could have done what Jesus did had they received enough RHEMA (revelation knowledge). False!
Welcome to the boards and please let me know if you have any other questions.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 7:51:43 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 459
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
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RealLifeBibleAnswers,
This this is what happens when you take one verse and build a theology around it.
That verse is not stating that Christians are gods in the way the WOF crowd mean it. It simply means we are God's mouth to people on Earth. Just like the prophets of old spoke what God told them to speak, we do the same. We go out and we teach people what God has said in His Word.
Look at Exodus 4, 7, 22, 28. Psalm 82.
Also by referring to Christians as gods the way WOF is to imply that God is a liar in saying that there are no other gods beside himself.
Earthless you da Man. What a good take.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 8:01:47 PM
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dwtramm
Posts: 281
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
The words quoted by Jesus in John 10:34 are from Psalm 82:6. The pertinent section reads as follows:
quote:
I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High. Nevertheless you will die like men And fall like any one of the princes."
There has been much debate about whom "you" refers - there are three common suggestions: 1) Angelic beings; 2) the Children of Israel at Sinai when they received the Law; 3) human judges or rulers who have judged unjustly.
Many who argue that ancient Israel practiced a form of polytheism or henotheism argue for option #1. They see this verse preserving an old tradition in which the pagan gods are judged by God.
The problem with this view is that Jesus' appeal to this verse presupposes that it refers to human beings; if it refers to angels, the Jews could rightly ignore Jesus' defense, for He is not an angel claiming the title "God," but a man (v. 33).
Jerome Neyrey makes an interesting case for option #2 ("I Said Ye Are Gods:" Psalm 82:6 and John 10). Neyrey argues that extra-Biblical Jewish literature from shortly after the time of Christ indicates that the Jews thought that the Children of Israel had, in a sense, become "gods" when they received the Law.
However, they almost immediately fell into idolatry and lost their divine status. The chief problem I see with Neyrey's otherwise provocative article is that there is simply no example of the Israelites being called "gods" in the Bible, and Jesus' argument is based specifically on Scripture which "cannot be broken."
In my view, Jesus' reference is unlikely, on the one hand, to rely on Psalm 82, and on the other, on a Midrashic interpretation of it.
Option number three is, on the whole, the most likely - in the immediate context, the "sons of the Most High" are said to judge, albeit unjustly.
There is probable Biblical precedent for calling human judges "gods" (Exodus 22:8, 9; Judges 5:8,9). The judges were "gods" in the sense that the "word of God came" to them as a Divine commission to perform a duty on earth that ultimately belongs only to God.
The judges, then, parallel Jesus - though to a lesser degree; for He received a Divine commission par excellence and every work He does is that of the Father.
The Jews have asked Jesus to plainly say if He is the Messiah. We may summarize His response as follows: "You should already know the answer to this question: My words and my works tell you plainly who I am. The reason you don't know who I am is because you do not believe. My sheep hear my voice and know me, but you are not my sheep. I grant eternal life to my sheep, and no one can snatch from my hand those that the Father gives me. My Father is greater than all and no one can snatch my sheep from my Father's hand - my Father and I are One!"
At this point, the Jews understand that Jesus is making exclusive claims of equality with God, which (unless true!) are blasphemous. Jesus asks which works He has done that warrant the charge of blasphemy. The Jews reply that they are not stoning Him for His works, but for the words He has just spoken. Jesus replies as follows:
"The Scripture says that God calls the judges in Psalm 82 'gods' on the basis of their divine commission. Thus, since the Scripture cannot be wrong, it is not blasphemy for one with a divine commission to have a divine title. I do not have a commission like the judges; I have an exclusive commission from my Father, for He set me apart and sent me into the world - to do the works you have seen, to say the words I have said, to grant eternal life to my sheep, to hold them fast in the same way my Father does, for He and I are One. Therefore, I have not committed blasphemy! But even if you persist in denying my words, you should believe on the basis of my works, for they prove that the Father is in Me in the same way I am in Him: we are One!"
The Jews, of course, do not believe Jesus - not because they misunderstand Him (such would suggest that Jesus was ineffective in communicating His identity, or was being consciously deceptive) - but because they lack faith.
They are not Jesus' sheep, as He has said. Thus, their rejection of Him lies in denial and self-deception, the root cause of all who reject God and His Christ (Romans 1:18-19).
Now that we have that passage in context we know that Kenneth Copeland's teaching that we are "little gods" is biblically incorrect. Furthermore, Copeland and other Word of Faith proponents are heretically wrong when they teach that anyone could have done what Jesus did had they received enough RHEMA (revelation knowledge). False!
Welcome to the boards and please let me know if you have any other questions.
Good explanation Earthless.
I just did a quick look into the text and it seems to me to clearly be in reference to the Jews who were angry at his sayings and in verse 31, they pick up stones to stone Jesus. It is at this event in Scripture that Jesus makes this statement.
I'm absolute agreement with Justin Peters that the text does not state that Christians are gods in any way, it was directed to those Jews (NET translates it as Jewish leaders) that were angry and wanting to stone Jesus.
To me, that is the clear reading of the text anyway, without really digging into it.
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[Deleted] - 7/30/2008 11:42:10 AM
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[Deleted] - 7/30/2008 11:56:28 AM
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 12:37:50 PM
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colliefan
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Eph 5:6 - 11 (HCSB) 6Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for because of these things God’s wrath is coming on the disobedient.£ 7Therefore, do not become their partners. 8For you were once darkness, but now ëyou are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light— 9for the fruit of the light results in all goodness, righteousness, and truth— 10discerning what is pleasing£ to the Lord. 11Don’t participate in the fruitless£ works of darkness, but instead, expose them.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 2:06:51 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6198
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RealLifeBibleAnswers
I'm sorry, but I will not be asking you any questions from this point on. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you, just like Todd Friel and Justin Peters, are unfortunately another "product of indoctrination." Seems to be that your motivation against denouncing "WOF" teachers also places you in the guilty of denying Biblical concepts.
How am I a product of indoctrination? My motivation against any and all false teaching stems from being a Christian. What am I guilty of? Please elaborate, considering you do not even know who I am.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 4:33:55 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3600
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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John 10:34 (KJV)
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law,
I SAID, YE ARE GODS?"
He was confronting them accusing him of blasphemy
because He was claiming to the the Son of God. Which He is.
He was quoting Psalm 82:6
"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you
are children of the most High."
The Hebrew word is "elohim." Which also means "mighty ones, or, judges."
That doesn't make us gods as proclaimed by the WoF camps.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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[Deleted] - 7/30/2008 5:47:48 PM
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 5:56:38 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RealLifeBibleAnswers
the concept that born again Believers (individuals who have receive Jesus, the name of the Holy Spirit) are indeed gods.
And what an ill-conceived concept it is. Countering such Word of Faith teachings is a simple matter of reading the Bible.
God alone is the Sovereign Creator of the Universe (Genesis 1:3; 1 Timothy 6:15), and does not need faith - He is the object of faith (Mark 11:22; Hebrews 11:3).
God is spirit, and does not have a physical body (John 4:24).
Man was created in the image of God (Genesis 1:26, 27; 9:6), but this does not make him a little god nor divine.
Only God has a divine nature (Galatians 4:8; Isaiah 1:6-11, 43:10, 44:6; Ezekiel 28:2; Psalms 8:6-8). Christ is Eternal, the Only Begotten Son, and the only incarnation of God (John 1:1, 2, 15; 1:14, 18; 3:16; 1 John 4:1).
In Him dwelt the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2:9). By becoming a man Jesus gave up the glory of heaven but not His divinity (Philippians 2:6-7) though He did choose to withhold His power while walking the earth as man.
The Word of Faith movement is deceiving countless people, causing them to grasp after a way of life and faith that is not biblical. Our hope is in the Lord, not in our own words, not even in our own faith (Psalm 33:20-22).
Our faith comes from God in the first place (2 Peter 1:1), and is not something we create for ourselves. So, be wary of the Word of Faith movement, and any church that aligns itself with Word of Faith teachings.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 8:19:49 PM
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nicole6598
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Hi I have a question about the prosperity teachings!
My hubby and I have been taught that God wants us to prosper. He wants us to live a good, successful, healthy life. He wants us to prosper in our families, work, home.
I have come to learn that its not all about that, its about growing to be more like Christ. And being affluent, doesn't mean you are a better Christian than someone who isn't.
Hubby isn't there, he can see how that can be wrong, but doesn't think there is anything wrong with being prosperous either. He says that the Bible says we are to prosper. I do know our pastors use the OT alot, be the head not the tail etc etc.
So how can I show hubby that this is not actually what Jesus and God mean for our lives? I mean its not wrong to prosper, but it shouldn't be pushed that its the only way to be a Christian either right?
_____________________________
Proud Aussie, Wife, Mother, Woman!
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 8:37:29 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6198
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
Hi I have a question about the prosperity teachings!
My hubby and I have been taught that God wants us to prosper. He wants us to live a good, successful, healthy life. He wants us to prosper in our families, work, home.
I have come to learn that its not all about that, its about growing to be more like Christ. And being affluent, doesn't mean you are a better Christian than someone who isn't.
Hubby isn't there, he can see how that can be wrong, but doesn't think there is anything wrong with being prosperous either. He says that the Bible says we are to prosper. I do know our pastors use the OT alot, be the head not the tail etc etc.
So how can I show hubby that this is not actually what Jesus and God mean for our lives? I mean its not wrong to prosper, but it shouldn't be pushed that its the only way to be a Christian either right?
In the prosperity gospel, also known as the “Word of Faith” religion, the believer is told to use God, whereas the truth of biblical Christianity is just the opposite - God uses the believer.
Word Faith or prosperity theology sees the Holy Spirit as a power to be put to use for whatever the believer wills. The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is a Person who enables the believer to do God’s will.
The prosperity gospel movement closely resembles some of the destructive greed sects that infiltrated the early church. The Apostle Paul and the other apostles were not accommodating to or conciliatory with the false teachers who propagated such heresy. They identified them as dangerous false teachers and urged Christians to avoid them.
Paul warned Timothy about “constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain…. But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness.” (1 Timothy 6:5, 9-11.)
Paul said covetousness is idolatry (Ephesians 5:5) and forbade the Ephesians to avoid anyone who brought a message of immorality or covetousness (Ephesians 5:6-7). Prosperity teaching prohibits God from working on His own, meaning that God is not Lord of all because He cannot work until we release Him to do so.
Faith, according to the Word of Faith doctrine, is not submissive trust in God; faith is a formula by which we manipulate the spiritual laws prosperity teachers believe govern the universe. As in the name “Word of Faith” implies, this movement teaches that faith is a matter of what we say more than who we trust or what truths we embrace and affirm in our hearts.
A favorite term in the Word of Faith movement is “positive confession.” It refers to the teaching that words have creative power. What you say, Word of Faith teachers claim, determines everything that happens to you.
Your confessions, especially the favors you demand of God, must all be stated positively and without wavering. Then God is required to answer (as though man could require anything of God!).
Thus God’s ability to bless us supposedly hangs on our faith.
James 4:13-16 clearly contradicts this teaching, “Come now, you who say, Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit. Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that. But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil.”
Far from stressing the importance of wealth, the Bible warns against pursuing it. Believers, especially leaders in the church (1 Timothy 3:3), are to be free from the love of money (Hebrews 13:5).
The love of money leads to all kinds of evil (1 Timothy 6:10). Jesus warned, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions” (Luke 12:15).
In sharp contrast to the Word of Faith emphasis on gaining money and possessions in this life, Jesus said “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal” (Matthew 6:19).
The irreconcilable contradiction between the prosperity gospel and the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is best summed up in the words of Jesus in Matthew 6:24, “You cannot serve God and riches.”
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 8:46:58 PM
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nicole6598
Posts: 4074
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: Australia
Status: offline
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Earthless, thank you, I read alot of your posts on this now and again. So I thank you for answering :)
I have been looking into the WOF and prosperity preachers and reading books about it and I totally disagree with it and I can't believe I got "sucked" in. Although I didn't know any different. They can be very persuasive.
But how can they use scripture to prove their point? See my hubby will say "but it says God wants to prosper us" etc etc so its hard when some verses will contradict another. How do you get around that? I guess you look at the overall message and see what is spoken about more?
Earthless you will be appalled at what is on the AOG Australia website!
"Life is meant to be lived as an increasing adventure in prosperity. God’s intention is to prosper the righteous so that they can demonstrate the power of His Kingdom on earth. Prosperity is not an option but a mandate and responsibility given to all who believe in the authority of the name of Jesus. We are called to show forth the wonders of His increasing Kingdom, and this clearly requires an increasing measure of affluence so that we can have an increasing measure of influence. "
That underlined bit got me so mad. I showed hubby last night, and he said "yeah but there's nothing wrong with being prosperous, God wants us to prosper". (he isn't very astute with scripture so couldn't show me examples, but I know where he is talking about, the OT stuff).
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Proud Aussie, Wife, Mother, Woman!
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 8:52:04 PM
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dwtramm
Posts: 281
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
Earthless, thank you, I read alot of your posts on this now and again. So I thank you for answering :)
I have been looking into the WOF and prosperity preachers and reading books about it and I totally disagree with it and I can't believe I got "sucked" in. Although I didn't know any different. They can be very persuasive.
But how can they use scripture to prove their point? See my hubby will say "but it says God wants to prosper us" etc etc so its hard when some verses will contradict another. How do you get around that? I guess you look at the overall message and see what is spoken about more?
Earthless you will be appalled at what is on the AOG Australia website!
"Life is meant to be lived as an increasing adventure in prosperity. God’s intention is to prosper the righteous so that they can demonstrate the power of His Kingdom on earth. Prosperity is not an option but a mandate and responsibility given to all who believe in the authority of the name of Jesus. We are called to show forth the wonders of His increasing Kingdom, and this clearly requires an increasing measure of affluence so that we can have an increasing measure of influence. "
That underlined bit got me so mad. I showed hubby last night, and he said "yeah but there's nothing wrong with being prosperous, God wants us to prosper". (he isn't very astute with scripture so couldn't show me examples, but I know where he is talking about, the OT stuff).
That is the Hillsong Church influence on the A/G Australia. I think Brian Houston, the pastor of Hillsong, is still the General Supertendent of the A/G there, and he has a WOF background.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 8:57:28 PM
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nicole6598
Posts: 4074
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: Australia
Status: offline
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Yes Brian is the National Exectuive. I belong to AOG church. I think the executives at their national conference meetings push certain teachings, and I have noticed they are pushing WOF and prosperity more and more.
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Proud Aussie, Wife, Mother, Woman!
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 9:04:13 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6198
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
Earthless, thank you, I read alot of your posts on this now and again. So I thank you for answering :)
All glory and honor to Jesus Christ, Lord of Lords!
quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
I have been looking into the WOF and prosperity preachers and reading books about it and I totally disagree with it and I can't believe I got "sucked" in. Although I didn't know any different. They can be very persuasive.
They sure can be, I personally know. A lot of has to do with the wicked nature of our flesh, our carnality, liking to hear that we can have financial riches, good and comfy lives, and no problems because we're Christians. As Scripture so aptly notes - it tickles our ears.
quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
But how can they use scripture to prove their point?
Easy. Just like cults do and have done since the beginning.
quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
See my hubby will say "but it says God wants to prosper us" etc etc so its hard when some verses will contradict another. How do you get around that?
Context. Knowing how to properly read Scripture in light of Scripture. A lot of those passages I know your husband brings up were speaking directly to and for Israel. Not always for New Testament believers like you and I.
quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
I guess you look at the overall message and see what is spoken about more?
We're take it all and test it in light of what the context of Scripture says.
quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
Earthless you will be appalled at what is on the AOG Australia website!
Ironically enough, I was on that website just a few weeks ago. My family was sincerely invited to become members of a local AoG church in my city. Many of my wife's family attends there and it would have been perfect for us due to its location, etc..
But after attending a few services we had to respectfully decline. It saddens me that some once doctrinally sound Pentecostal churches are being over-run by Word of Faith teachings.
quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
"Life is meant to be lived as an increasing adventure in prosperity. God’s intention is to prosper the righteous so that they can demonstrate the power of His Kingdom on earth. Prosperity is not an option but a mandate and responsibility given to all who believe in the authority of the name of Jesus. We are called to show forth the wonders of His increasing Kingdom, and this clearly requires an increasing measure of affluence so that we can have an increasing measure of influence. "
That underlined bit got me so mad. I showed hubby last night, and he said "yeah but there's nothing wrong with being prosperous, God wants us to prosper". (he isn't very astute with scripture so couldn't show me examples, but I know where he is talking about, the OT stuff).
Simply point him to Jesus Christ, to the apostles, to the disciples, to the followers of Jesus depicted in the pages of the Bible. They didn't hunger after money nor lavish lifestyles. Instead they faced hunger, imprisonment, beatings, be-headings, loss of friends, the gory mane of a tiger, the melting oil of being lit on fire alive, chains, and death.
I, for one, am embarrassed by the Word of Faith teachers and I am ashamed to be represented by them.
These men represent Christianity to millions and millions around the world.
They present a false picture of what it means to be a Christian and I think it is abhorrent. Michael Horton has rightly asked, "Do those who occasionally view televangelistic programming know that evangelical Christianity offers an intelligent interpretation of and hope for human existence?
Stated most simply, the error of the faith movement is that they exalt man and decrease God. They exalt man to God status and reduce God to man's status.
They are aware that what they are teaching is unorthodox and controversial to say the least, yet they have no wish to change their tune.
They refuse to be accountable to anyone. No man is an island unto himself. These men who are spokesmen for the Christian faith to the public and represent the Lord Jesus to millions through their television programs are preaching a different Jesus, a different gospel, and a different spirit than what is revealed to us in Holy Scripture.
The Apostle Paul has some strong words for these men and with them I close. I pray we wi | | |
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