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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/11/2005 9:23:54 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2120
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quote:
could you be missing the point that there were many others crucified?
Could you be missing the point that only Christ's blood forgives sins? That there is only one begotten son of God who is the perfect sacrifice? That Jesus Christ led a sinless life, perfectly fulfilling the law, something no one else could, all so that he could willingly die on the cross so that our sins are forgiven? That Jesus Christ himself declared his work finished on the cross?
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/11/2005 9:44:46 PM
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thewindsup
Posts: 56
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
quote:
could you be missing the point that there were many others crucified?
Could you be missing the point that only Christ's blood forgives sins? That there is only one begotten son of God who is the perfect sacrifice? That Jesus Christ led a sinless life, perfectly fulfilling the law, something no one else could, all so that he could willingly die on the cross so that our sins are forgiven? That Jesus Christ himself declared his work finished on the cross?
I agree with this, so how am I missing the point?
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/11/2005 9:51:33 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 467
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From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: thewindsup
i dont see the words "annointed" in the reference and does "it" as in "any person could do it" refer to die on a cross or atone for our sins?
I meant to write born-again.
You gotta understand that he believes that Jesus is born-again. That Jesus defeated satan in hell and that anyone that is born-again could have done the same thing.
Then says something like.
"It wasn't a physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin...anybody can do that."
(Kenneth Copeland, Audio-Clip "Christianity in Crisis," Hank Hanegraaff)
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/11/2005 9:53:35 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2120
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quote:
I agree with this, so how am I missing the point?
The point is that not just anyone could die on a cross and forgive sins. Only Jesus, who is the perfect sacrifice because of who he uniquely* is, could die on a cross and forgive sins. Saying that "anyone could die on a cross" does not mean that Jesus had to do more than die on the cross to forgive sins, because there is only one Son of God to die for the forgiveness of sins, there are no others who can duplicate that act.
EDIT: Since the definition of "unique" has been watered down by overuse in hyperbole, here is the word's definition: Unique "Being the only one of its kind"
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/11/2005 10:19:13 PM
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thewindsup
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But surely you agree anyone could die on a cross? Is that the only point that was being made in this quote?
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/11/2005 11:19:13 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2120
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quote:
But surely you agree anyone could die on a cross? Is that the only point that was being made in this quote?
Yes, anyone could simply died on a cross. Jesus Christ DID NOT SIMPLY DIE on a cross. His entire life built up to that point, his entire life was for the forgiveness of our sins. He was not simply some born-again human, he was the unique Son of God, who life a uniquely perfect life that was sinless and fulfilled the entire law (and prophets). Mr. Copeland claims that anyone could duplicate that feat, and because of that Christ must have done more after his death to forgive our sins. Mr. Copeland seems to have missed that Jesus is unqiue, the one and only who fulfilled the law in his own right. The work of Jesus Christ was fulfilled on the cross, and his blood does indeed cover our sins. The Bible does not say that Jesus Christ suffered while he was dead. The Bible does not say that Jesus was born again. The Bible does not say that Satan had power of Jesus Christ at any time.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/11/2005 11:46:58 PM
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thewindsup
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
quote:
But surely you agree anyone could die on a cross? Is that the only point that was being made in this quote?
Yes, anyone could simply died on a cross. Jesus Christ DID NOT SIMPLY DIE on a cross.
Well, it seems to me that you're making the same point Copeland did! Jesus did more than just die on a cross! I have never heard Copeland deny the fact that Jesus was sinless. It seems like your interpreting some offense against Jesus' deity that I just dont see being made by Copeland? According to the following verse Jesus was made to be sin for us, but that doesnt change his deity, perhaps in the same way that becoming a man did not change the fact that He was God.
II Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2005 12:01:07 AM
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figmentPez
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From: TX
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quote:
Well, it seems to me that you're making the same point Copeland did! Jesus did more than just die on a cross!
No, I'm making a very different point. Copeland claims that everything leading up to Christ's death was insufficient to forgive your sins, and that any born-again person could do the same. I'm saying that Jesus Christ's life was so amazing, that he alone could appease sin by dying on the cross. Copeland claims that more had to happen after death to make Jesus Christ the unique savior of mankind, which is absolutely not what the Bible teaches.
quote:
I have never heard Copeland deny the fact that Jesus was sinless. It seems like your interpreting some offense against Jesus' deity that I just dont see being made by Copeland?
Yup, Copeland claims that any person could live the same life Jesus Christ did, becuase Copeland claims that Jesus Christ's death on the cross was not unique.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2005 10:55:21 AM
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P31W
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Understanding the symbolism of the "lamb without spot" in the law and the sacrificial system and the laws pertaining to "blood" help us in our understanding that it's the blood of the spotless lamb Jesus Christ that was shed for our sins.
Hebrews 10
Since the law has only a shadow of the good things to come, and not the actual form of those realities, it can never perfect the worshipers by the same sacrifices they continually offer year after year. 2 Otherwise, wouldn't they have stopped being offered, since the worshipers, once purified, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3 But in the sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, as He was coming into the world, He said: You did not want sacrifice and offering, but You prepared a body for Me. 6 You did not delight in whole burnt offerings and sin offerings.
7 Then I said, "See, I have come-- it is written about Me in the volume of the scroll-- to do Your will, O God!" 8 After He says above, You did not desire or delight in sacrifices and offerings, whole burnt offerings and sin offerings, (which are offered according to the law), 9 He then says, See, I have come to do Your will. He takes away the first to establish the second. 10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all. 11 Now every priest stands day after day ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this man, after offering one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God. 13 He is now waiting until His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified. 15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. For after He had said: 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws on their hearts, and I will write them on their minds, 17 He adds: I will never again remember their sins and their lawless acts. 18 Now where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
19 Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness to enter the sanctuary through the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that He has inaugurated for us, through the curtain (that is, His flesh); 21 and since we have a great high priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed in pure water. 23 Let us hold on to the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us be concerned about one another in order to promote love and good works, 25 not staying away from our meetings, as some habitually do, but encouraging each other, and all the more as you see the day drawing near. 26 For if we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries. 28 If anyone disregards Moses' law, he dies without mercy, based on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think one will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God, regarded as profane the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know the One who has said, Vengeance belongs to Me, I will repay, and again, The Lord will judge His people. 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God! 32 Remember the earlier days when, after you had been enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to taunts and afflictions, and at other times you were companions of those who were treated that way. 34 For you sympathized with the prisoners and accepted with joy the confiscation of your possessions, knowing that you yourselves have a better and enduring possession. 35 So don't throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance, so that after you have done God's will, you may receive what was promised. 37 For in yet a very little while, the Coming One will come and not delay. 38 But My righteous one will live by faith; and if he draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not those who draw back and are destroyed, but those who have faith and obtain life.
Matthew 27
50 Jesus shouted again with a loud voice and gave up His spirit. 51 Suddenly, the curtain of the sanctuary was split in two from top to bottom; the earth quaked and the rocks were split.
Do a study about why this curtain was in place. Notice is was split from the "top to the bottom" when Jesus gave up his spirit......If Jesus did not pay the price for our sins on the Cross rather had to go into hell then God acted too soon in splitting the curtain so that we could go boldly to his throne of grace.
According to "Copelands false teachings" we were still seperated from God when God tore the curtain. Meaning God acted too soon. The priest should be offering animal sacrifices for another 3 days.
< Message edited by P31W -- 11/12/2005 11:25:08 AM >
_____________________________
“Tolerance is the virture of the man with no convictions.” G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2005 1:16:02 PM
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lecoop
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From a 20 year + WOF'er
I was raised in a Wesleyan Methodist church (now just Wesleyan.) I now know that most of what they taught me was error. (think extreme Armenianism: one bad thought [sin] and I lose my salvation; then their entire doctrine of "entire sanctification" is in error also) However, I was born again there, after hearing many good salvation sermons. Therefore, I will not run this church down just because we disagree over some doctrine. They are getting people born again.
I disagree with Copeland over this doctrine. I disagree with "Dad" Hagin over this doctrine. However, the bible does not say exactly what happened to Jesus after His death, so I will just remain neutral. What I want to point out is this: How many people are coming into the kingdom of God through WOF churches? The answer is millions! I have always wanted to ask people a question: If someone in a WOF church is pulled by the HS to the alter, and prays the sinners prayer, versus someone in say a Baptist church with the same HS and same exact prayer, could anyone say that the one in the Baptist church got born again, while the one in the WOF church did not? How rediculous it would be to say that! Yet some call this a "false revival," and in effect are saying this very thing.
I disagree with "Dad" Hagin over his statement: "The believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth." I understand what he was saying. I know that we have the fulness of the Godhead in us. However, I believe He missed one thing.
Who was Jesus? What made Him human and what made Him God? I think many people do not understand the answer to these questions. Could we accurately say that Jesus was 100% human and 100% God? I don't think so. First, let's define what a "human" is. I submit that a human being is a spirit being, possessing a soul, and living in a body. Does this define Jesus? WE know that God is a spirit, so we have the spirit being. God the redeemer, the second person of the trinity, came to earth to be born in a human body. He "took on" flesh. As Hebrews says, God prepared him a body. So we have a spirit being (God) living in a human body, and possessing a soul. Therefore, we can say that God became a man, because He took on the flesh of a man.
What was the difference between Jesus and all the other human males around him, such as the 12 disciples? There was only one difference. They were all spirits living in flesh, but with one HUGE difference: The spirit living in Jesus' body was God, the second person of the trinity, and the creator of the Universe! Yes, BIG difference! Was Jesus then, 100% human? No, because the spirit inside the body was GOD, not a human spirit. Was he 100% man? No, because the spirit in the body was GOD! No man can say that! However, God at this point may have looked very much like a human spirit to other spirits, such as demons. Why do I say this? Because the demonic world could not find Him for about the first 3o years of His life.
So are we "as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth?" Not even by a huge stretch! Yes, we have the fulness of the Godhead living in us. I understand that. However, we are a human spirit living in a human body; not God the creator living in a human body. Therefore, I can see why most of the Christian world would take exception with this. However, Kenneth Hagin was much more than this one statement, just as my Wesleyan church was much more than "entire sanctification." Kenneth Hagin started "Rhema Bible Training center," in Tulsa. That has grown to I believe 14 or 15 other Rhema's around the world. Some of the students from the Rhema in Tulsa have started their own bible schools. I know of one that has at least 14 more bible schools around the world. Some of these graduates have started many churches in third world countries. There are now many thousands of graduates of Rhema schools around the world, and many of these people are on fire for God. So ultimately, if you disagree with a few statements made by WOF people, so what? As Paul said, the gospel is still being preached. Millions are coming into the kingdom of God. These people are not against the church, but for it and with it.
why am I a WOF'er? Simply because most of what they teach is right on with what I believe the bible teaches.
Coop
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2005 1:45:45 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5771
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lecoop
From a 20 year + WOF'er
What I want to point out is this: How many people are coming into the kingdom of God through WOF churches? The answer is millions! I have always wanted to ask people a question: If someone in a WOF church is pulled by the HS to the alter, and prays the sinners prayer, versus someone in say a Baptist church with the same HS and same exact prayer, could anyone say that the one in the Baptist church got born again, while the one in the WOF church did not? How rediculous it would be to say that! Yet some call this a "false revival," and in effect are saying this very thing.
Coop
I think that you make a really big leap as to what is drawing most of those people indoctrinated in the WOF to the alter. A Prayer does not save one; only the understanding of the truth of the Gospel;
The Word of God says;
quote:
(Gal 1:7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
(Gal 1:8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
(Gal 1:9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
My personal opinion is that what is being preached in the vast majority of WOF messages is not what Paul delivered; at least not according to my Bible.
Getting someone to join a "spiritual group" is not necessarily leading someone to Christ; examples such as David Koresh, Rev. Moon, Jim Jones, etc. bear this out.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2005 2:18:44 PM
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P31W
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2 John 1
7 Many deceivers have gone out into the world; they do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch yourselves so that you don't lose what we have worked for, but you may receive a full reward. 9 Anyone who does not remain in the teaching about Christ, but goes beyond it, does not have God. The one who remains in that teaching, this one has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your home, and don't say, "Welcome," to him; 11 for the one who says, "Welcome," to him shares in his evil works.
********
The people God warns us to stay away from are those who try to teach us and who have a problem understanding the dual nature of Christ meaing they deny either his diety or humaness.
These people go "beyond" what scripture teaches us. They teach us stuff from their "special revelation" that cannot be proved with scripture. We are not to remain neutral rather we are to do what John did and call them decievers. If we don't do this and we aid them in any way even with a greeting then we share in their evil deeds.
Decievers bring about false converts. People who worship a false god. We can only worship the God in spirit and truth. That's His standard and we can't change them. The Holy Spirit does not use the false teachings of man to draw men to God. It's the "word of God" that is used. Faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Preach the word in season and out of season.
_____________________________
“Tolerance is the virture of the man with no convictions.” G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2005 2:48:05 PM
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lw9
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Dear lecoop:
quote:
What I want to point out is this: How many people are coming into the kingdom of God through WOF churches? The answer is millions! I have always wanted to ask people a question: If someone in a WOF church is pulled by the HS to the alter, and prays the sinners prayer, versus someone in say a Baptist church with the same HS and same exact prayer, could anyone say that the one in the Baptist church got born again, while the one in the WOF church did not?
There are a few assumptions above I'd like to address.
Assumption 1: WOF churches bring millions into the Kingdom.
Firstly, no one but God knows who is truly saved and who is not. The most we can say is that IF a person has heard the Word and truly believes the Word, they will be saved. We have to leave it at that since we don't know another's hearts and minds. Anyone can mouth the words 'I am Christian' and give an appearance of godliness while their hearts and thoughts proclaim a different story altogether:
1 Cor 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man, which is in him?
Pro 20:27 The lamp of the Lord searches the spirit of a man; it searches out his inmost being.
Ps 44:21 Would not God find this out? For He knows the secrets of the heart.
Secondly, if a person is listening to WOF doctrine instead of the truth of the Holy Bible, then they are learning about a false Jesus Christ and a deception [see Assumption #3] . So, while millions may be 'hearing a word' and going down to altar calls in WOF churches, who knows what their faith is truly in since they are not hearing the true Word.
Assumption 2: Saying a prayer saves people.
As pointed out by RCJames, repeating a prayer does not save. The Bible states a person must hear the Word of God, repent, and believe the truth.
Mark 1:4 After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. 15 “The time has come,” he said, “The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!”
Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out…
Assumption 3: WOF is just like any other mainstream church.
The Holy Spirit speaks only one truth, and that truth will never contradict the Holy Bible. God's Word is one truth for all time. Therefore, when the Holy Bible condemns and rejects false teachers, the Holy Spirit will not contradict that and suddenly support a false teacher or a false church. The WOF teachers are false teachers, and therefore are rejected by the Bible and the Holy Spirit. There are numerous contradictions of WOF vs. Bible and the Holy Spirit, but the most serious one is the denial of Jesus Christ:
WOF: The blood of Christ did not atone for sin. Jesus died spiritually and was dragged into hell to be tortured, was reborn in hell.
Bible: The blood of Christ atoned for sin. Jesus died physically, not spiritually, and atoned for sin through His shed blood on the cross.
Different Jesus Christ, different gospel, different truth altogether. Faith in this false Jesus Christ [and denial of the true Jesus Christ] will not save a soul.
quote:
However, the bible does not say exactly what happened to Jesus after His death, so I will just remain neutral.
I hope the following helps explain a little further. Before Jesus Christ came, men and women died in their faith. No one ascended into heaven before Him:
Acts 2:29 Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “ ‘The Lord said to my Lord…
Heb 11:37 They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated – 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains and in caves and holes in the ground. 39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only with us would they be made perfect.
Heb 11:13 All these people [descendants of Abraham] were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance.
Jesus did come, and after His death He did the following:
1Pet 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men.” 9 Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.
He descended and fulfilled the promise to bring those believers who died before His coming into heaven with Him.
Take care, and God bless you.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 11/12/2005 3:20:40 PM >
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2005 7:42:08 PM
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thewindsup
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
However, the bible does not say exactly what happened to Jesus after His death, so I will just remain neutral.
I think he meant the Bible doesnt give specifics about what happened between Jesus death and resurrection, so you are using your understanding of other scriptures to try to explain what you dont know for sure.
I dont really see how making statements about what occured between Jesus' death and resurrection is a denial of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross or the atonement of His shed blood. It is a false accusation to say that Copeland denies the atonement Jesus provided for us.
II Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2005 8:35:35 PM
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thewindsup
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
quote:
I dont really see how making statements about what occured between Jesus' death and resurrection is a denial of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross or the atonement of His shed blood. It is a false accusation to say that Copeland denies the atonement Jesus provided for us.
Regardless of what you think Copeland is teaching, he still says that our redemption was not earned on the cross but after while Christ was dead. This is a blatant lie, we are redeemed by his blood, not some fight in hell. The veil was torn while he was on the cross, not while he was in the tomb.
You already said it wasnt only the his sacrifice on the cross, but also because of His sinless life, so how is it such heresy to say that it was also what He did before His resurrection? Again, this does not constitute a denial of Jesus' sacrifice for us on the cross.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2005 8:46:15 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2120
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
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quote:
You already said it wasnt only the his sacrifice on the cross, but also because of His sinless life, so how is it such heresy to say that it was also what He did before His resurrection? Again, this does not constitute a denial of Jesus' sacrifice for us on the cross.
The difference? One is Biblical truth, as stated in the Bible, the other isn't. And, yes, it is a denial, since it says Jesus's work was not finished on the cross. It denies that his sacrifice was sufficient. My statement that Jesus's life was important is specifying exactly who and what was sacrificed on the cross, Copeland's teachings deny that the life of Jesus was a sufficient sacrifice for sins, and claim that he had to be tortured after his death, he had to endure more than the Bible says was sufficient.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2005 8:47:16 PM
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thewindsup
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Yes, speaking of denying the power of God. How about denying the power of the Holy Spirit to heal and bless our lives in a supernatural way????
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2005 8:59:52 PM
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P31W
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Wind it appears that both you and the other poster today on this thread do not "deny" that Copeland is teaching things about the death of Christ that cannot be supported with scripture.
My question to you is the same as it was to the other poster.
God gives us these instructions in 2 John 1
9 Anyone who does not remain in the teaching about Christ, but goes beyond it, does not have God. The one who remains in that teaching, this one has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your home, and don't say, "Welcome," to him; 11 for the one who says, "Welcome," to him shares in his evil works.
If you belive kenneth is teaching things that goes beyond what God's inspired word instructs then "why" do you continue to defend him? Do you believe these instructions are for "you" or "us" today or that we can ignore scripture at will?
_____________________________
“Tolerance is the virture of the man with no convictions.” G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2005 9:08:03 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1131
Joined: 7/22/2005
Status: offline
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Dear the windisup:
quote:
I think he meant the Bible doesnt give specifics about what happened between Jesus death and resurrection, so you are using your understanding of other scriptures to try to explain what you dont know for sure.
The scriptures I posted are the specifics of what Christ did after His death and before His resurrection.
quote:
I dont really see how making statements about what occured between Jesus' death and resurrection is a denial of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross or the atonement of His shed blood. It is a false accusation to say that Copeland denies the atonement Jesus provided for us.
“...When His blood poured out, it did not atone. It did away with the handwriting of the ordinances that were against us.” (Kenneth Copeland, Form letter, March 12, 1979 )
“Because his physical death was not enough for the payment of sins there was a another way for sins payment. Jesus put Himself into the hands of Satan when He went to that cross, and took that same nature that Adam did [when he sinned].” (Kenneth Copeland, The Incarnation (Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1985, audiotape #01-0402) side 1.)
“It ain’t the physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin because if it had been any prophet of God that had died for the last couple of thousands of years before that could have paid that price, it wasn’t physical death. Anybody could do that.” [Kenneth Copeland, www.voiceofwarning.com/realvideo.htm]
How many times does Copeland [or Hagin, or Meyers, or Hinn...] have to deny the completed work of the cross before you will understand the error? Either Jesus shed His blood on the cross for our sins, or He didn't. The Bible says He did, WOF says He didn't. Which are you going to defend.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 11/12/2005 9:10:44 PM >
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2005 9:12:21 PM
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thewindsup
Posts: 56
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
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You know, I am not really defending him. He doesnt need me to defend him and I dont know everything he says or believes and it is obvious that most of you know even less what about what he has taught. I am defending the truth of the Word, that people who are anti Word of Faith are attacking by saying that it is not Gods will to heal and prosper his Children.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2005 9:55:46 PM
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lecoop
Posts: 187
Joined: 11/5/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: lecoop
From a 20 year + WOF'er
What I want to point out is this: How many people are coming into the kingdom of God through WOF churches? The answer is millions! I have always wanted to ask people a question: If someone in a WOF church is pulled by the HS to the alter, and prays the sinners prayer, versus someone in say a Baptist church with the same HS and same exact prayer, could anyone say that the one in the Baptist church got born again, while the one in the WOF church did not? How rediculous it would be to say that! Yet some call this a "false revival," and in effect are saying this very thing.
Coop
I think that you make a really big leap as to what is drawing most of those people indoctrinated in the WOF to the alter. A Prayer does not save one; only the understanding of the truth of the Gospel;
The Word of God says;
quote:
(Gal 1:7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
(Gal 1:8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
(Gal 1:9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
My personal opinion is that what is being preached in the vast majority of WOF messages is not what Paul delivered; at least not according to my Bible.
Getting someone to join a "spiritual group" is not necessarily leading someone to Christ; examples such as David Koresh, Rev. Moon, Jim Jones, etc. bear this out.
Thanks
RC
I can tell you from 20 years of being there: the gospel is being preached, the Holy Spirit draws people to the alter, and they pray to get born again, just as in any other church where the Holy Spirit comes. I would guess that you have never ventured into the door of a Rhema church. Dad Hagin probably preached more from Paul's epistles than anyone I have ever listened to. I will be the first to admit that with all the many Rhema churches or offshoots, one could probably find error. However, I could say the same for any denomination. However, the basics, or as Hank Hanegraaf says, doctrine "inside the pale of orthodoxy," is being taught. Reinhard Bonke, is probably getting to the place that he will have preached face to face to more people that anyone that has ever lived. He gets millions born again every year.
Coop
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