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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/25/2008 2:13:52 AM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
SD,
But do you not find it odd that so many Christians all present the same documentation (FACTS) and concerns about the teachers you choose to adhere to?
Lord knows if any of the preachers I do choose to listen would have a slews and slews of Christians presenting video, audio, written documentation about them I would really be concerned and take a deep and serious study into what was being presented.
LOL. I don't consider a handful of christians on these forums to be slews of people. And there are plenty more, myself included, who have been blessed and brought into a more fruitful walk in Christ because of many of the teachings of the ones some of you dislike.
We must ALWAYS glean what good we can out of a teacher's writings and set aside the things we disagree with. Especially when the things that are disagreed with are secondary doctrines and not primary doctrines that would bring that teacher to hell.
You are assuming I have not studied any of their teachings. We must remember that controversy does not equal sin. Martin Luther had plenty of controversy, didn't he.
Martin Luther hated jews. He wrote that they were the spawn of the devil and that they should not be allowed to live and should be exterminated. His writings were used by Hitler and his Nazis to uphold their exterminating of the jews.
Now why do you have no problem gleaning the good from Martin Luther's teaching while throwing out his heretical (some have called it) beliefs about the jews? And why would God still choose to use and annoint a man who taught people to hate God's original chosen and much loved people? For the exact same reason that God chooses to use the broken vessels of today who don't have all their doctrine correct - because He's God and He will bless whomever He chooses to bless.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 3/25/2008 2:27:18 AM >
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/25/2008 8:25:04 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6355
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
LOL. I don't consider a handful of christians on these forums to be slews of people.
I was speaking worldwide, outside of the board.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
And there are plenty more, myself included, who have been blessed and brought into a more fruitful walk in Christ because of many of the teachings of the ones some of you dislike.
I dislike their teachings, many of them I know personally and have broken bread with many times.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
We must ALWAYS glean what good we can out of a teacher's writings and set aside the things we disagree with. Especially when the things that are disagreed with are secondary doctrines and not primary doctrines that would bring that teacher to hell.
This is EXACTLY where we go on different paths. Your comment is one I absolutely agree with, but what we diverge on is our not seeing eye to eye on how much of what they teach that I have brought to our attention is indeed abhorrent on the primary doctrines such as who Jesus is, what the Gospel is, etc..
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
You are assuming I have not studied any of their teachings. We must remember that controversy does not equal sin. Martin Luther had plenty of controversy, didn't he.
Martin Luther hated jews. He wrote that they were the spawn of the devil and that they should not be allowed to live and should be exterminated. His writings were used by Hitler and his Nazis to uphold their exterminating of the jews.
Yes, I know. Which is why I am not a follower of Martin Luther, nor any fallible man.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
Now why do you have no problem gleaning the good from Martin Luther's teaching while throwing out his heretical (some have called it) beliefs about the jews? And why would God still choose to use and annoint a man who taught people to hate God's original chosen and much loved people? For the exact same reason that God chooses to use the broken vessels of today who don't have all their doctrine correct - because He's God and He will bless whomever He chooses to bless.
Because many of their teachings error on the primary doctrines, I take your comment as saying that God also can use unsaved men and we should pay attention to their teachings as well. Mormons, JW's, Cult leaders, New Ager'ers, etc..
Unless you are ever willing to actually spend some time with me actually discussing the error I see on the primary doctrines, we will never do much then continue going in circles.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/25/2008 3:08:21 PM
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SD456
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Sorry, earthless, then we shall not be able to see eye to eye, as I will not join in the threads that have posters that not only rip to shreds dear teachers and pastors of which they don't agree with, but also mock, belittle, and try to humiliate other posters who say things they don't like. I am wiser than to throw myself into a den of lions.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/25/2008 5:53:27 PM
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earthless
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SD,
In Heaven we will both know.... love you in the Lord.
-earthless
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/28/2008 12:00:07 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1173
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
SD,
In Heaven we will both know.... love you in the Lord.
-earthless
In Heaven we will both know.... love you in the Lord.
It is written concerning the New Covenant that God fulfilled in Jesus Christ:
But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. Then he addressed them: "Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. If Paul had heeded the words spoken by his teacher Gamaliel; he would not have been found guilty of persecuting The Church of God in Christ; as he had done at first.
For Jesus, in His Wisdom, said: Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And: Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. For Jesus said to His chosen Apostles: So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.' "
For it is written: the worker deserves his wages. And: For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. For Jesus said concerning people who speak evil about others: You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. For Jesus said: Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For Jesus said: "Therefore every teacher of the law who has been instructed about the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old." Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever.
For If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. And: He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. Therefore, "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
< Message edited by prophetica -- 3/28/2008 3:18:01 PM >
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/5/2008 12:34:42 AM
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Mysticweeping
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To so many people writing in regards to Jim Goll and John Paul Jackson in a negative manner, including calling them 'false prophets'
I have been to many conferences where both men have spoken. I have seen both men prophesy. I have been to many other places where others connected to them were speaking. I have books, cds and other materials written by them.
Since I have heard them, I feel that I can give a somewhat balanced perspective on the manner.
I have been to the brownsville revival and also purchases Hank Hannagraafs tapes against the revival. I like to see MANY views and come to a conclusion of what is God and what is not through the reading of the scriptures (the word) and the holy spirit. This is how a balanced discerning takes place..the word and the spirit Combined.
John Jackson, and Jim goll may not be perfect christians, but "he who is without sin cast the first stone" Many of those who have condemned these two men, I feel are doing so unfairly. If you listen to what John Paul Jackson has to say, he would tell you (at least from what I gather) that those dream cards, are not a total 100% answer. He made them using biblical language as a beginning stage to help people start to understand their dreams. Everyone has dreams, and so i find it odd that anyone would question whether these dreams can be used by God to talk to us. '
Regarding the portals and other terminology used by many prophetic people. I do beleive that both the cessationalist and the pentacostals got some things correct. When love comes all things are made perfect. If we are truly living the Christ in Pure love frmo heaven, which not only exhorts, but also disciplines, then we are in the fulfillment of the gifts and therefore any gift (supernatural or natural) that is needed will always come at the perfect time in abudance from the heart connected to God and overflowing in Gods love. Love is the answer to the big 'supernatural' question.
I have seen many things by other people in the prophetic movement that i would call shady and deceptive, however. Both Jim Goll and John Paul Jackson have openly discussed on some of their messages mistakes they made in the past in this light, some presumption and 'zeal' that wasn't perfect. They have openly talked about these things, and do not shy away from them. both men have teachings and materials available on needing a 'reformation' in the prophetic nature of the church. To this extent, I beleive that one shouldnt' cast just such a large accusation as calling them false prophets. I person who truly is seeking God everyday and seeking truth will find it. Scriptures say 'ask and it shall be given unto you, seek and ye shall find"
If these men are seeking Jesus, then if their doctrine or behavoir is wrong, JESUS will work grace, salvation, and redemption into their life, and in which case, they will change beccause the inner work of the spirit will change them. Seeing them speak 'live' and absorbing their materials, I can tell you that while I do not agree with many things that both man teach, I DO beleive they know Jesus, that they are saved, and they are seeking truth with their hearts..
IF LOVING Jesus was a crime, both of these men would be absolutely guilty. To this extent, if someone is keeping records of wrongs, i strongly encourage you to read that 'love is patient, kind....it keeps no record of wrongs...always trusts, always hopes....etcetc"
In any event, we are called to test all things. The inquiry into false prophecies states a position different than what I would consider fair accessment. Shouldn't we love all, and TEST ALL things taught in the world of Christianity. Too many people go with the doctrines they think in their own mind are right ('there is a way that seems right to a man...') but few men take all things to God and ask the father in heaven to show them what lines up with his words, and what doesn't.
Every person in the earth if he were to have every word written down and others judge those words would be considered a false ...(fill in the blank witha gifting..)
again, I don't like alot of what Goes on in thename of prophecy in the christian church, but I dont' like what goes on in the flip side of the church either.. its really about time for the church family to start listening to each other...we might find that many of us have pieces to the puzzle, and putting all the pieces together we can get a balanced, discerning perspective...
We need each other, and the body is made up of many parts..and all the parts should try to love and work with each other a little more.
I would gladly say to anyone who reads this blog thread that I feel confident that whatever they beleive, both John Paul Jackson and Jim goll love Jesus, and that is enough for me to listen to their messages and see what they have to say.
With the massive exodus of beleivers leaving the system of religious christianity, maybe its time for us to have a new perspective of faith? Maybe we are on the verge of another massive reformation where the church starts to live a pure life, full of Gods mercy, and grounded in their salvation.
blessings
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/5/2008 4:21:08 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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Mysticweeping, I feel I must warn you of two things... First is what happens to people who talk common sense in forums...
Second is that if you include the word "mystic" in you handle, you have just painted a target on yourself. I will stand with you, and there are a couple others... but many are not kind to those they can paint as somewhat "out there".
Rock on, citizen!
Adam
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/5/2008 12:38:10 PM
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Mysticweeping
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furGodWurLuvin, thanks for your concern. I know that my screen name may single me out a bit in the minds of some people, but if a person judges someone for a name, for clothing, for the color of their skin, or any other reason, then they simply do not follow the Christ walk as Christ did.
I chose the name, knowing that some would be probably single me out because if it, for the main reason that the state of the church at large upsets me, I have cried and prayed many times that GOd would somehow reveal the truth to the christian world, so that she could leave her evil ways.
"Traditionally' mystics were people who had an obsessive love for God, who loved God more than anything. The churches whether catholic, protestant, pentacostal, or charismatic.. the church world did not love mystics, they hated them, murdered them, and tortured them, calling them children of the devil. Then after years of calling these people devils children, they then monument statues, books, and all kinds of things to talk about 'how great' these wonderful people were.
While, I do not doubt that some of those people were completely not in Christ, there are many who were of God. My screen handle for this forum, is my way of saying that I align myself with those in history who loved Jesus Christ more than religion, who followed the ways of God, even to the point of looking uncomfortably odd. There are many people in the christian world, many of whom think they are all on the true path and everyone else is wrong.
If a person really analysed their christian history, no matter what denomination they are in, they will find that at the roots of their conception was someone that many would call a 'mystic' or something who loved Jesus and wanted to see the ways of God move on. Many Churches were founded on revivals that died because people just loving Jesus and focused on being perfect moral people instead of holy people.
I beleive that we can all be deceived by spirits of the age, and so it is my desire everyday to lay down and go before Jesus in prayer. I test all things, whether i say them, whether friends say them or whether others from pulpits say them.
I am just amazed that so many people would bash others when there is so much scandels happening in churches across the denominational barriers.. i just wonder when people will wake up, smell the coffee, and realize that God came to save the whole world... not to set up a religion.
bless you, May Gods mercy be evident in your day
As for my comments on this forum about Jim Goll and John Paul Jackson, I love those two men. I beleive that they are my family in God, and if someone hates their brother, well...Jesus said the light of God, the truth..is not in them.
and then when we read about who he calls our neighbor...well.. its sounds to me like a Christian needs to love everyone...
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/5/2008 1:08:02 PM
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RJR_fan
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From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
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quote:
Except that Jacob's ladder very clearly shows that there are places which angels come up and down from heaven. So it is not a fantasy at all, it is reality.
John 1:51 -- And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
Folks, that "special place" is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Can you point to one square inch of the universe that the King does not claim as His own?
Why settle for anything less than what we were given, the Son, in whom is found all things pertaining to life and godliness? Should we "help out Jesus" by building landing pads for UFOs, portals for angels, or novenas to the Blessed Virgin Mary's apparitions?
If we decide that Jesus Himself isn't enough, how weird can we get?
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Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/5/2008 2:50:05 PM
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Mysticweeping
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RJR fan, i couldn't agree more. I have been to many meetings where people were 'combing the carpets' looking for gemstones from heaven, people were seeking feathers to float out of th rafters (maybe from a hidden bird?)
But I must say this, whil there is lots of signs and wonders, many false, many true.. the focus IS JESUS CHRIST.
What I found to be so amazing over the years, is that miracles follow people who totalling love JESUS CHRIST, and many of those that Love him first and foremost, enjoy the miracles but are not driven by miracles.
Many factions of Christianity are obsessed> its either obessesed with the evils of miracles or obsessed with the good of miracles.. We are called to test all things.
I think if people truly are connected and worshipping JESUS CHRIST then signs and wonders will follow them simply because they beleive, they don't need to conjure anything, because its just the natural flow from salvation.
if the age of miracles have completely died, everyone would be going to hell..because the greatest miracle of all is that of Christ turning ugly sinners into beautiful sinners...that is a miracle worthy to verify miracles still exist.
But how wacky can it get? I would have to say, if you read things that happened in the Bible, I think biblical times were more wacky then most christians. In fact, I think that john the baptist, exekial, isaiah, king david, and others wouldn't even recognize the church if they suddenly showed up today, because all the eccentricites that surrounded those that love Jesus, Father God and Holy spirit....welll they are very rare, and almost instinct... because most people want to use a strainer on the church and make sure everything is perfect, and moral... but God uses some really screwed up people.. for example..rahab the prostitute... now how can anyone get around that..even in theology!!!
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/5/2008 6:42:37 PM
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earthless
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Mystic,
Yet what we see is a stark contrast to what you said in many of these church circles - they push and push for more and greater signs and wonders. Often times conjuring things which are patently false and outright unbiblical.
A few weeks ago I had lunch with a very well-known and influential charismatic pastor. He is also a widely read author and national media figure. This man told me, "When I'm shaving in the mornings, Jesus comes into the bathroom and puts his arm around me, and we talk."
He paused to measure my reaction, and then he said, "earthless, do you believe that?"
"No, I don't," I replied. "But what troubles me most is I think you believe it"
"Why" he asked. "Why it is so hard for you to accept the idea that Jesus visits me in a personal way every morning?"
Does he keep shaving? I wondered. Or does he collapse in utter fear and trembling in the presence of the holy, glorified Lord?
When Isaiah saw the Lord on His throne, he said, "Woe is me, for I am ruined!" (Isaiah 6:5). Peter saw Him and fell on his face and said, "Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord!" (Luke 5:8). I don't believe anyone could keep shaving in the presence of the risen Lord!
For a lot of self-professed believers, Scripture is not enough, is not sufficient for their daily walk. God Himself says His Word is sufficient! (Psalm 19:7-14; 2 Timothy 3:15-17).
A lot more can be said, sorry for the rant.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/5/2008 9:42:33 PM
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Mysticweeping
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Very fascinating Earthless. Let me say that I completely understand where you are coming from. There is a holy fear of God, and if that holy fear is not there, we can come into some serious delusions. But I also think, as much as this man says Jesus appears to him everymorning, maybe Jesus appears to him in his heart, and so therefore he is seeing Jesus comfortably putting his arm around him? I can't say that God wouldnt' do that, but I would want to know then, what Jesus said in the context of the morning shave.
I have had 'experience's where I felt that I was going into a supernatural place with God myself. I have have had times where i was screaming at the tops of my lungs "holy holy holy...Oh God do not kill me, please dont' kill me..holy holy holy." etc. I might have looked like an insane person on the outside by a strangers perspective, but the holy tangible presence of God had invading my being and I thought i would die.
This holy fear is what you are talking about. When Isaiah Said "woe is me!" I can feel that verse now when i read it! I went for about 10 days unable to function and totally undone. I felt completely wiped out. But i can tell you, after that time, My life changed, I was a much softer, and more loving person than i was before. God had invaded my life!
I was not seeking that experience, nor was I trying to coax God for encounter. I was minding my own business, singing praises to God and worshipping him for his splendor, his beauty, and thats when it happened.
Other times I have 'sensed' Gods presence, and when I have felt that I might be hearing the voice of God, I always go back to scriptures..because God does not contradict his word. There are times when I did not do what I heard being said, and I prayed that if i was making an error it was in the attempt to hear clearly whether it was truly God or a decieving spirit. Over time I learned how to hear what was God and what wasn't from doing so.
now I understand that you may or may not agree with my position, and that is perfectly fine. I am not going to say that an experience validates my salvation, because it doesn't. Experiences are merely experiences, it is our faith in Christ that saves us.
I will agree with you endless, that many of those people in that network and that circle do NOT talk about that, and i can assure you that when I had my encounter, it was in a church and people were scrambling to get away from me. My closest friends who were near me, were crawling away from me as fast as they could saying that the precious of God on me was so terrifying they didn't know if I was going to die, but they didn't want to stick around to see if they woudl die too. hahaha.. I find that amusing... though i didn't die, and Gods presence didn't wipe me off the earth, but its sure seemed like it!
When I think of Jonathan Edwards preaching "sinners in the hands of an angry God' i can easily see now, how so many people felt as if the earth was opening before them, and the holy presence of God in that revival brought them into utter repentance. When Gods spirit shows up, all your sin and darkness is laid bare.
Do I beleive that God can speak to us without us trembling? Yes. I beleive that is the purpose of the holy spirit. Jesus sent the holy spirit, as our guidance counselor, to lead us into all truth, and to show us the ways of God. I think it is the presence of Father God in heaven and the throne that can be terrifying, but I beleive the holy spirit's job is to be a force of salvation to us, in a way that doesn't have us feel like we are going to explode, or die. There is the simple peace of God to learn the truth.
I will not deny to you, or anyone that much of what is happening in Charismatic or similar churches is a mixture of Light and Dark, it is sort of like a lukewarm experiement that will eventually be puked out of Gods mouth.
But what i CAN say is this, there are people that love Jesus and are seeking truth in those circles of thought. I can tell you that growing up in an anabaptist denomination, I saw few people so dedicated to Jesus as I see in the renewal/revival circuits. Sure they are just as religious and strange as other sectors of christianity, but you know what.. I would rather be with people who love Jesus and seek him everyday than people who just seek Jesus on sundays.
And I would rather be with people who were in pursuit of truth than people who felt they already have 'arrived' at truth. I am not saying this to any person, I am just explaining that I think sometimes we get off on the wrong place of seeking to find all the dirty laundry of someone ..instead of seeing if they are pursuing life and Christ, or not.
If someone is seeking Jesus, much like Jesus said .. whoever is not against you..is for you...
to earthless, i appreciate your comments, and I would thank you for your interaction.
I am not a church attending Christian, I don't even beleive in Christianity to be honest. I got saved from religion and Christianity and found Jesus. Jesus is nothing like the christian world, and so I beleive in the word of God, i beleive in the holy spirit and Jesus and father God, but i do not beleive in the church system. I no longer attend churches for some of the very issues you are addressing, because I got tired of people who play games, whether in the ultrafundamental side or the supercharismatic side. I know that some people would be angry at that, but i Do have fellowship almost everyday with beleivers, and we all share our lives with each other, the good, the bad, and the ugly... and so.. we have a community of people who are learning and loving, seeking Truth and Jesus.. and in some ways it feels very refreshing not to hear people trying to manipulate each other for money, whether it was from the flashy evangelist or the preachers teaching that the flock must tithe 10 percent to their ministry.. all the money, the powerm, the charades, the games.. all the stuff..is just not Christ-like..
so if there is anything that i can say regarding it all.. is the Bottom line is LOVE JESUS. and LOVE OTHERS..
doctrines and disagreements would not exist, if all were led truly by the spirit. THe Bible says that if we have disagreement we should take it to the spirit who will show us the truth.. and then.. we would be completely in agreement on all things, and would see much more truth than many see now, because they are divided instead of wanting to lay down they opinions for the truth.
bless you all
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/5/2008 10:34:08 PM
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SirWintery
Posts: 2084
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mysticweeping
To so many people writing in regards to Jim Goll and John Paul Jackson in a negative manner, including calling them 'false prophets'
Roll call: wintery--"Here!" 
Welcome, Mysticweeping.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mysticweeping
I have been to many conferences where both men have spoken. I have seen both men prophesy. I have been to many other places where others connected to them were speaking. I have books, cds and other materials written by them.
Confession is good for the soul, isn't it?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mysticweeping
Since I have heard them, I feel that I can give a somewhat balanced perspective on the manner.
I appreciate the nice manner in which you are posting so I am not trying to be harsh here, but I must say that there is no balance for unscriptural "revelations".
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mysticweeping
I have been to the brownsville revival and also purchases Hank Hannagraafs tapes against the revival. I like to see MANY views and come to a conclusion of what is God and what is not through the reading of the scriptures (the word) and the holy spirit. This is how a balanced discerning takes place..the word and the spirit Combined.
I followed Kilpatrick around the church, very closely when he came here during the days of the "revival". I watched him growl out words at a senior citizen and pretty much drop her to the floor in front of me. A minister I knew asked me to be a catcher for a few minutes. Fortunately the subject did not fall. Did you think I popped out of an egg with my critiques?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mysticweeping
John Jackson, and Jim goll may not be perfect christians, but "he who is without sin cast the first stone" Many of those who have condemned these two men, I feel are doing so unfairly.
Is there really a "fair" way to condemn someone, especially to those who disagree? As far as being without sin, wouldn't it be even better for a repentant false prophet to address these matters? I wonder how such a person would be criticized? Fairly? Besides, if I can't walk into a room without coming under the eyes of those in it, do you think anyone becomes a public figure, and a minister, without expecting to have what they say examined? Perhaps you've heard once too often that anyone criticizing is just wrong on that basis--disagreeing is not allowed. However, in this folder "alleged" false teachers are discussed. I know it must be perturbing to hear how they look to me, but I've posted some Scriptures with my views in these pages.
I don't think I got around to Jim Goll. I think I passed him on the sidewalk one day here in Florence, Alabama. Interesting how he changed his "stage name".
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ORIGINAL: Mysticweeping
If you listen to what John Paul Jackson has to say, he would tell you (at least from what I gather) that those dream cards, are not a total 100% answer.
I'm sure I need his other products as well. A friend forwards Elijah list emails to me regularly. When I have time I read them.
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ORIGINAL: Mysticweeping
He made them using biblical language as a beginning stage to help people start to understand their dreams. Everyone has dreams, and so i find it odd that anyone would question whether these dreams can be used by God to talk to us. '
"Everyone has dreams"...I'd stop right there. We come to know God and His character through the written Word. We come to know the Sandman through dreams. God _might_ speak through a dream...but I've encountered the local Third Wave dream interpreters personally and I find them very distasteful and simplistic...and wrong. All over these threads we talk about how these "prophetic" types dig for a new gimmick by recycling the Old Testament. Maybe living for Christ with His Word as the guide just doesn't sell. There's an old, old CCM song called "Commercial Suicide"...very interesting.
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ORIGINAL: Mysticweeping
Regarding the portals and other terminology used by many prophetic people. I do beleive that both the cessationalist and the pentacostals got some things correct. When love comes all things are made perfect. If we are truly living the Christ in Pure love frmo heaven, which not only exhorts, but also disciplines, then we are in the fulfillment of the gifts and therefore any gift (supernatural or natural) that is needed will always come at the perfect time in abudance from the heart connected to God and overflowing in Gods love. Love is the answer to the big 'supernatural' question.
There are those who have been swayed to follow these men and their teachings and when they should be seeking God they get the dream interpretation card or something else. Love would not leave them hungry and thirsty yet supplied only with man-made answers. Once again, is it just wrong to disagree? I've seen how quickly a "minister" can go from his public persona to a teeth-grinding display, so I won't bite on a show of "love" when I can see the teaching is off. (Is that Ray Stevens I hear in the background singing "Everything is Beautiful"?) The issue calls for more substance than that.
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ORIGINAL: Mysticweeping
I have seen many things by other people in the prophetic movement that i would call shady and deceptive, however.
Please share, if necessary in another thread.
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ORIGINAL: Mysticweeping
Both Jim Goll and John Paul Jackson have openly discussed on some of their messages mistakes they made in the past in this light, some presumption and 'zeal' that wasn't perfect. They have openly talked about these things, and do not shy away from them. both men have teachings and materials available on needing a 'reformation' in the prophetic nature of the church. To this extent, I beleive that one shouldnt' cast just such a large accusation as calling them false prophets. I person who truly is seeking God everyday and seeking truth will find it. Scriptures say 'ask and it shall be given unto you, seek and ye shall find"
Based on past mistakes, which books do they no longer sell? Mysticweeping, they cannot eat their cake and have it too. To me it's just another way of saying they have yet another new revelation. Car manufacturers change models every few years, fashions change regularly and then there are those who get new "revelations" constantly.
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ORIGINAL: Mysticweeping
If these men are seeking Jesus, then if their doctrine or behavoir is wrong, JESUS will work grace, salvation, and redemption into their life, and in which case, they will change beccause the inner work of the spirit will change them. Seeing them speak 'live' and absorbing their materials, I can tell you that while I do not agree with many things that both man teach, I DO beleive they know Jesus, that they are saved, and they are seeking truth with their hearts..
Didn't say they weren't "saved" for I will not judge this-nor could I.
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ORIGINAL: Mysticweeping
IF LOVING Jesus was a crime, both of these men would be absolutely guilty. To this extent, if someone is keeping records of wrongs, i strongly encourage you to read that 'love is patient, kind....it keeps no record of wrongs...always trusts, always hopes....etcetc"
I do appreciate the nice manner you're posting in. However when the followers of a JPJ come after me and my daughter and those around us at a public event trying to seduce someone into giving them a dream to interpret so they can "minister", the sit-back-and-love approach is not going to hold water. I posted most of that story in another thread. It certainly makes me think someone should have been doing something a long time ago. If the only thing available to me right now is to make a few comments on a message board, I'm not doing it to mess up anyone's day.
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ORIGINAL: Mysticweeping
In any event, we are called to test all things. The inquiry into false prophecies states a position different than what I would consider fair accessment. Shouldn't we love all, and TEST ALL things taught in the world of Christianity. Too many people go with the doctrines they think in their own mind are right ('there is a way that seems right to a man...') but few men take all things to God and ask the father in heaven to show them what lines up with his words, and what doesn't.
Every person in the earth if he were to have every word written down and others judge those words would be considered a false ...(fill in the blank witha gifting..)
"Every person in the earth" is not claiming to be a teacher from God.
Romans 3:4 By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, "That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged."
Have a nice night.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/6/2008 1:57:16 AM
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Mysticweeping
Posts: 6
Joined: 4/5/2008
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Hello Wintery.
I just want to say that while I appear to be 'nice' there are times when I am not afraid of calling something false. However, I don't beleive that John Paul Jackson is as vile as so many do.
First and foremost, since i stated above, I do not goto church anymore. I do not need a pastor, prophet, or any sort of 'church leader' to tell me the truth, that is what the scriptures and the holy spirit are for. Because of this, I don't fall into the delusions of granduer that so many do when they kiss the pretty feet of many leaders in various denominations.
Books of revelations are not new. In fact, Pilgrims Progress, a Christian classic, came to John Bunyan in a vision like experience. THat book is not contradicting Gods word, and has been a convicting piece of literature for years. It also came under a form of 'revelation.'
If we are to test all things, from all people, then why do we need to be claiming who is false and who is true all the time? Now granted, I am not disagreeing with you that many ministry teams can be a little overkill with their desire to help people, whether its dream interpretation or doctrnial brainwashing. I visited a baptist church once where they were cessationist and the minister shook my hand and didn't let go as his wife was trying to shove their little book of doctrine, chock full with free stuff like pens, a tablet with the church contact information as the header, and other trinkets. I told the pastor and his wife that I didnt' want their info, and they tried to insist to the point that I told them I would never return to their church and they were preaching blasphemy against the word of God for some of the things he spoke on that morning. They stood shocked. So i assure you, I am not the run of the mill charismatic.
I also would disagree with the happy slappy doctrines of the vineyard church where the original choices of only prophecying positive things came from, though i understand it was through crazy prophetic nut jobs that they started creating 'rules' like that to protect people.
i cannot say that one man is false and another is not because i have never been to one church service where the message was 100% pure, 100% God. I can tell you that i have been through all kinds of churches ranging from the non denominational modern to the super fundamentalist conservative. The truth is, any message, teaching, or whatever..is just one mans understanding, one mans perspective in an attempt to speak Gods truth. I have seen so many scriptures taken out of context, from both sides of every issue, that I have come to the point that I just dont' have a problem with hearing everyone out.
You mentioned the elijah list, and i find that to be amusing since the Elijah list to me is the epitome of disgusting. Selling 'the annointing' through products is nothing more than a 'mantle' of simon the sorcerer.
Where we may disagree is that I do beleive that a person can get revelation from God everyday. In fact, everytime I open up my Bible, i get revelation from God, and the spirit of God, sent by Jesus leads me into the true understanding of what is written in his word.
Just because someone knows the scriptures, can quote the scriptures, or even can use scriptures to prove their point or perspective means absolutely nothing.
SATAN used scriptures, quoted scriptures and tossed them at Jesus to try and tempt Jesus. JESUS, did not suddenly tell satan his theology was accurate because he quoted scriptures, no, he gave it right back. I do beleive that the majority of christianity likes to play the scripture battle game, but without the spirit of God illuminating those scriptures, all we have is a bunch of doctrinal, logic based conclusions. Logic is not necessarily a bad thing, but when used against the spiritual truth of scriptures, it is.
Everybody does indeed dream, i heard a scientist say once that if people didn't dream they would die. I don't know if that is true, but if it is, its an interesting statement. Sure i said that God might speak through a dream, but I didn't say all dreams were Gods spoken word, and certainly everyone needs to test all things. test test test!
I think the phrase 'popped out of an egg' is kind of funny, i never heard that expression before you said it wintery, i think i may have to use it sometime. But truthfully, I don't think anyone on this board is just ranting and raving to rant and rave. I think people all have a valid perspective. I wouldn't be writing and corresponding on this forum if I didn't think it was worth discussion.
I am sorry you have had such bad experiences in these meetings. I can't say I have always had good ones, because many of the meetings I goto I have been very saddened by what happens. But I continue to go, because I have found that when I goto a conference and meet people and spend time with them afterwards I meet some very sincere people, and when I address some of the things that were totally not God, and wacked out during the evening, many times they get angry at me, but then...as time goes by, their eyes are opened and they contact me..sometimes a few days, sometimes a few months, and even after a couple years, and they tell me that their eyes were opened and they just cant' beleive that they bought into some of the junk that they did. So I beleive that if we show them love, which includes speaking out on what is not God, then love covers over a multitude of sins, and reaches inside and it changes people..
I am not siding with these prophetic people when I say what I do, although, I love them just as much as I love others, but I will say this. If a person is a false prophet, they aren't saved. You cannot serve two masters, and so if a person is serving darkness, they are not from Jesus. So from my understanding if you call someone a false prophet you are basicly assuming they aren't Gods children. If you have a differing perspective on that, then that is all totally ok.
One thing I chose to do when I hear these folks speak, or anyone, is to realize that God talked through a donkey. God speaks through anyone he wants to, and so i can meet an atheistic and listen to them and learn from them, but I don't have to accept everything hook line and sinker.
One of the things John Paul very obviously teaches is dream interpretation. That has been discussed before on this thread. I have listened to his teachings on dreams, and one of the things he does do, is gets people into the scriptures. They teach on the different dreams and visions people had in the BIble, and encourage people to start by studying the dreams in the Bible to get a biblical understanding of Dreams. I don't think that anyone who beleives in teh Bible would disagree to that..
But I beleive the grey area, and the issue that has some people heated is the whole 'dream cards' and the sort of blanket of interpretation of the dreams from a general perspective. I dont' always agree with what they are teaching in regards to that, and I do know people who use the cards as if they are 100% accurate. But those people are worshippers of man, they idolize leaders whether its john paul jackson or jerry falwell. John Paul Jackson is not responsible for people misusing the cards that he intended to be used to basic understanding on how to begin to understand dreams.
Dreams don't always mean something directly from God, in fact, again John Paul talks about that in the tapes. They discuss misinterpretation of peoples dreams as a serious issue because it can cause problems to people who follow dreams instead of seeing what is really true.
Now who has the problem? Obviously if a person has a dream about something and then thinks they have to do exactly what they saw in the dream because it was a dream, then if they don't test that dream and test the interpretation..they are responsible.
If someone gives me advice on how to fix something on my house, if I take their advice without checking it out to see if it is legit, i could possibly cause more damage. So its important to take anythign I hear and see if it is the truth. This is what more people need to do. Part of the problem with all of this is that people still think they need leaders.
You see, if we were living in biblical days, when people ALL had something to contribute when they gathered for fellowship, if everyone brought something whether song, message, prophecy, etc.. then we wouldn't be so dissected as a church.
But since people look to their superheroes, the local pastor, the sunday school teacher, the prophet or whoever...then they get all out of shape, and then others get out of shape..
if people didn't elevate their leaders so much maybe we wouldn't even need to discuss false prophets versus true??
Sure their was leadership in teh BIble, but that leadership was not how it is today, the didn't rule the church with an iron fist. THe church was the PEOPLE, not the building.
Anyways, the reason i bring this up is because I don't beleive the real issue is with the men themselves... I think the real issue is how the church elevates or lowers these men. Instead of looking to men, we all should be looking to Jesus.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/6/2008 3:26:20 AM
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SD456
Posts: 1070
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
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What I found to be so amazing over the years, is that miracles follow people who totalling love JESUS CHRIST, and many of those that Love him first and foremost, enjoy the miracles but are not driven by miracles.
Thank you, mystic, that is so completely correct. Signs and miracles simply follow those who are desperately in love with Jesus. The people I know who have operated in those gifts have never been driven by miracles, they're just passionate and focused on Jesus.
It's all about Jesus and God will choose to reveal things to whomever delights in pursuing His wisdom and revelation in things.
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I was minding my own business, singing praises to God and worshipping him for his splendor, his beauty, and thats when it happened.
Yep, that's usually when things happen when we're worshipping Jesus.
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I am just explaining that I think sometimes we get off on the wrong place of seeking to find all the dirty laundry of someone ..instead of seeing if they are pursuing life and Christ, or not.
Yes, there does seem to be a lot of pointing fingers. Jesus very clearly said that we will know His followers by their fruit - He did not say by their perfect doctrine or their nice, flawless personalities. It seemed very important to Jesus that we judge people by their fruit.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 4/6/2008 3:39:32 AM >
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MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/6/2008 3:31:30 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2478
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
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What I found to be so amazing over the years, is that miracles follow people who totalling love JESUS CHRIST, and many of those that Love him first and foremost, enjoy the miracles but are not driven by miracles.
Thank you, mystic, that is so completely correct. Signs and miracles simply follow those who are desperately in love with Jesus. The people I know who have operated in those gifts have never been driven by miracles, they're just passionate and focused on Jesus.
It's all about Jesus and God will choose to reveal things to whomever delights in pursuing His wisdom and revelation in things.
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I was minding my own business, singing praises to God and worshipping him for his splendor, his beauty, and thats when it happened.
Yep, that's usually when things happen when we're worshipping Jesus.
Matthew 7:
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
I wish your statements were fully true, but alas, miracles follow those who are not serving Jesus first as well.
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love.ben
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/6/2008 3:40:11 AM
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SD456
Posts: 1070
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
What I found to be so amazing over the years, is that miracles follow people who totalling love JESUS CHRIST, and many of those that Love him first and foremost, enjoy the miracles but are not driven by miracles.
Thank you, mystic, that is so completely correct. Signs and miracles simply follow those who are desperately in love with Jesus. The people I know who have operated in those gifts have never been driven by miracles, they're just passionate and focused on Jesus.
It's all about Jesus and God will choose to reveal things to whomever delights in pursuing His wisdom and revelation in things.
quote:
I was minding my own business, singing praises to God and worshipping him for his splendor, his beauty, and thats when it happened.
Yep, that's usually when things happen when we're worshipping Jesus.
Matthew 7:
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
I wish your statements were fully true, but alas, miracles follow those who are not serving Jesus first as well.
I think what you are missing in that verse is Jesus saying, "I never KNEW you." He's not talking about people who are intimate with Jesus and who are desperately in love with Him and are pursuing Him with all their hearts, because those people truly know Jesus and are in love with Jesus.
It's easy to keep throwing that verse around. But that verse isn't speaking about everyone in the church, only about those that aren't intimate with the person of Jesus. There are many who are intimate with the bible, but I wonder if they are truly intimate with Jesus Himself and does Jesus speak to them? Do they recognize His voice when He speaks? Do they recognize the HS leading them throughout their daily lives? Those things will better prove whether someone KNOWS Jesus.
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http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/6/2008 3:42:19 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2478
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
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I think you were missing my point. Miracles are not necessarily a result of an intimate relationship.
Just because miracles follow a person around does not mean they are in step with God at all.
This seems to contrast what you said:
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Signs and miracles simply fol | | |
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