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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/20/2008 8:59:43 PM
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SD456
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If, as it says in Ephesians 3:20
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine,
then I don't understand why it's so difficult to grasp that some people see things that are beyond one's imagination. Even attempting to discredit it by saying, "that's just his imagination," isn't correct IMO, because in actuality, if we can imagine it, then it's not far out enough or wild enough or crazy enough or deep enough compared to the real thing because God has created a universe and spiritual realm that blows everything off the map.
I believe it is fear that holds so many. Some in the church have a greater fear in satan's ability to decieve than they have faith in God's ability to lead in the truth, so they shut themselves off from the wonders of the Holy Spirit and from a supernatural God because of this fear.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/20/2008 9:03:36 PM
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earthless
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SD,
Sis.. you do admit/acknowledge that Satan and the demonic realm disguise themselves as beings of light.. that they will and have been doing so and that their attention is heavily towards believers right?
I just wonder if you're one of those that believe anything and everything from the signs and wonders arena is from God.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/20/2008 9:13:28 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
SD,
Sis.. you do admit/acknowledge that Satan and the demonic realm disguise themselves as beings of light.. that they will and have been doing so and that their attention is heavily towards believers right?
I just wonder if you're one of those that believe anything and everything from the signs and wonders arena is from God.
The bible says he does. But God promised us that if we ask for the Spirit He will not give us a serpent or stone. He promises to lead us in the way that is right. I have faith He is able to do that far more than satan is able to lead us off the path of truth. I guess I just trust that God's abilities in every area are far stronger than satan's. It's called faith. His ability to give me discernment is greater than satan's ability to pull the wool over my eyes, as long as I'm always turning to Him and depending on Him for these things. Which I am. He's a huge papa.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/20/2008 9:16:33 PM
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earthless
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SD,
You didn't answer my one and only real question - do you acknowledge that Satan and the demonic realm can and do mimic signs and wonders - and that many, even believers, can and are fooled by them?
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/20/2008 9:26:19 PM
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cybrjewls
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Not at all like posing as a Christian to accuse a lot of other people of falsehood, just as the devil stood before Angels clothed in light, in times gone by, to accuse the bretheren.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
SD,
You didn't answer my one and only real question - do you acknowledge that Satan and the demonic realm can and do mimic signs and wonders - and that many, even believers, can and are fooled by them?
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/20/2008 9:48:46 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1070
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
SD,
You didn't answer my one and only real question - do you acknowledge that Satan and the demonic realm can and do mimic signs and wonders - and that many, even believers, can and are fooled by them?
I believe that Jesus' sheep WILL recognize His voice, no matter what broken vessel happens to be speaking, and I believe that those who are intimate with Jesus WILL recognize a sign or wonder to be from Him or not. If there are some who get decieved from a Jim Jones or a David Koresh, then that is because they haven't spent enough time with Jesus to truly recognize His voice and His nature. We must all strive to be intimate with our Savior, just bible knowledge alone will NOT save anyone from deception even if they had the entire bible memorized and get it right historically, prophetically and every other way.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 3/20/2008 9:55:01 PM >
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/21/2008 8:13:24 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
Not at all like posing as a Christian to accuse a lot of other people of falsehood, just as the devil stood before Angels clothed in light, in times gone by, to accuse the bretheren.
What are you implying?
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/21/2008 8:15:15 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
SD,
You didn't answer my one and only real question - do you acknowledge that Satan and the demonic realm can and do mimic signs and wonders - and that many, even believers, can and are fooled by them?
I believe that Jesus' sheep WILL recognize His voice, no matter what broken vessel happens to be speaking, and I believe that those who are intimate with Jesus WILL recognize a sign or wonder to be from Him or not. If there are some who get decieved from a Jim Jones or a David Koresh, then that is because they haven't spent enough time with Jesus to truly recognize His voice and His nature. We must all strive to be intimate with our Savior, just bible knowledge alone will NOT save anyone from deception even if they had the entire bible memorized and get it right historically, prophetically and every other way.
Even when Jesus warns that many elect will be fooled and pay heed to deceiving spirits? Ok.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/21/2008 11:07:04 AM
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SirWintery
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
Since I have a bible example that, for me, supports my belief that such places actually exist on the earth, I was curious, do you have a bible verse that, for you, supports your belief that such places do NOT exist? You must have something that scripturally supports your belief, especially when you hold on to it so strongly, don't you?
I was actually just going to let you have the last word, but I won't leave it hanging with a question.
I had a post about Jacob's ladder dream (#43) where I gave a couple of views about that.
What should we call it when a _new_ teaching gets printed up, priced and proliferated?
Deuteronomy 4:2
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish aught from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Revelation 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Numbers 22:18 And Balaam answered and said unto the servants of Balak, If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I cannot go beyond the word of the LORD my God, to do less or more.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/21/2008 10:05:28 PM
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cybrjewls
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Greetings! Is he charging for these teachings?
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
Since I have a bible example that, for me, supports my belief that such places actually exist on the earth, I was curious, do you have a bible verse that, for you, supports your belief that such places do NOT exist? You must have something that scripturally supports your belief, especially when you hold on to it so strongly, don't you?
I was actually just going to let you have the last word, but I won't leave it hanging with a question.
I had a post about Jacob's ladder dream (#43) where I gave a couple of views about that.
What should we call it when a _new_ teaching gets printed up, priced and proliferated?
Deuteronomy 4:2
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish aught from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Revelation 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Numbers 22:18 And Balaam answered and said unto the servants of Balak, If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I cannot go beyond the word of the LORD my God, to do less or more.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/22/2008 4:59:11 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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Hi SD:
You know I dont really have a fuss about portals, strange occurances, dreams or visions. God and do all this and much more for someone to reveal a part of himself in them. The bible is full of such examples.
The problem arises when these things become a source of credibility or proof of prophetic manteling. What distinguished the prophets is not visions as much as adherance to the Word of God. That is the bedrock proof.
Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Jos 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
Jer 23:30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbor. Jer 23:31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
Jer 23:32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.
Its not that I need to second guess dreams and visions. I second guess the prophet when they will not adhere to the Word of God. I went just last week to hear two different prophets as they were called by everyone that came to hear them. One of them I interupted his sermon to tell him "becareful brother do not blaspheme". The whole audience was shocked and he was too.
He spent his hour and half sermon to undermine the sovereignty of God, the sinfulness of man and the corruption of the world. The 'wow' revelation of this prophet was nothing more than a 4th century heresy called pelagianism and a new slant on 'open theism'. I dont need to be a prophet to recognize the error their jargon.
The second prophet was mixing american indian spiritualism and christianity, with a little new age mysticism. It was incredibly ridiculous. Of course the whole congregation bought it like ice cream and cookies. I completely rejected this prophet. I dont care about his 'accuracy' with people when he is full of nonsense interms of his scripture teachings.
This prophet was stealing the Words of God and injecting his own teachings in its place. Do I think the church profited by his teaching? I believe they will have to unlearn his drivel in time to come. The pastor was wonderful, but naive about what this man taught.
John
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/23/2008 1:18:50 AM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1173
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Greetings favorable wintery! Bless you in Christ Jesus our Lord. For it is written: when you give a party invite the poor and those who are not able to repay you so that The Father in Heaven will settle the account and that they may welcome you into their inheritances that they receive in the new earth.
For the love of God or for the love of mammon?!
However, I believe that many other Churches also pass the collection plate in accordance with the word spoken by the Apostle of God regarding how the leadership has a privelege to marry and gather 10% donations. For Jesus said: (paraphrase) you give 10% of everything that you have, but you neglect the weightier matters of the law which is the love of God, mercy, and justice. You should have practiced the latter without neglecting the former.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
Greetings! Is he charging for these teachings?
Are you asking me? I am not sure exactly what you mean. Why don't we check his itinerary:
http://www.streamsministries.com/index.php?cat_id=11&page_id=111
(note: This is not an ad. I had to click through each site to find the pricing.)
Top of the list:
Overcomer's Crown - Freedom and Breakthrough Conference
http://www.davidtomberlin.com/conf-registration?id=16
Single registration $35, luncheon $25 per person
Next: Live The Dream Conference
https://www.swiftfire.org/itinerary/conferenceregistration.aspx?id=27
Regular registration $60, luncheon $20
Next: Vineyard Community Church
http://www.vccgn.org/events/johnpauljackson.html
Registration $45
Next: Walking In The Supernatural
http://www.ambasmin.org/?pid=289
I don't sprechen this much, but under pricing I see 60 euros for the conference cost.
You can look the rest up if you're interested. You might have to click as if you're registering to see the pricing.
< Message edited by prophetica -- 3/23/2008 11:19:11 AM >
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/23/2008 4:56:19 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1070
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Even when Jesus warns that many elect will be fooled and pay heed to deceiving spirits? Ok.
Except that the bible does not say that the elect would be deceived. It says 'if it were possible' , which I believe is not if we are intimate with Jesus.
Matthew 24:24
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.
Jesus promised that no one could snatch us out of His hands OR the Father's hands. That is a promise that we can rest in. If our lives are hid in Christ then we WILL recognize true and false signs and wonders.
John 10:28,29
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
It ALL depends on if we know him or not, and that word 'know' is translated to mean 'knowing' intimately inferring the kind of intimate knowing that a man and wife know of each other. How many in the church are taught to 'know' Jesus, long for His presence, long for prophecy more than any other gift because prophecy is a very important mode of communication between us and our savior? Very few are. Many know the bible very well, but few are intimate with Jesus as much as they should. It is intimacy with Jesus that protects from deception, not knowledge of the bible alone.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/23/2008 5:05:53 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1070
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
Hi SD:
You know I dont really have a fuss about portals, strange occurances, dreams or visions. God and do all this and much more for someone to reveal a part of himself in them. The bible is full of such examples.
The problem arises when these things become a source of credibility or proof of prophetic manteling. What distinguished the prophets is not visions as much as adherance to the Word of God. That is the bedrock proof.
Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Jos 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
Jer 23:30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbor. Jer 23:31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
Jer 23:32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.
Its not that I need to second guess dreams and visions. I second guess the prophet when they will not adhere to the Word of God. I went just last week to hear two different prophets as they were called by everyone that came to hear them. One of them I interupted his sermon to tell him "becareful brother do not blaspheme". The whole audience was shocked and he was too.
He spent his hour and half sermon to undermine the sovereignty of God, the sinfulness of man and the corruption of the world. The 'wow' revelation of this prophet was nothing more than a 4th century heresy called pelagianism and a new slant on 'open theism'. I dont need to be a prophet to recognize the error their jargon.
The second prophet was mixing american indian spiritualism and christianity, with a little new age mysticism. It was incredibly ridiculous. Of course the whole congregation bought it like ice cream and cookies. I completely rejected this prophet. I dont care about his 'accuracy' with people when he is full of nonsense interms of his scripture teachings.
This prophet was stealing the Words of God and injecting his own teachings in its place. Do I think the church profited by his teaching? I believe they will have to unlearn his drivel in time to come. The pastor was wonderful, but naive about what this man taught.
John
Yes, there are some who teach false things. I've not heard such things taught by any of the people that God has led me to learn from. If what they said was wrong, and I can only take your word for it since I don't know who you are referring to, then it's good that you recognized it. But then I couldn't just take your word on teachers, I must listen to them for myself.
On one of these threads there was a gentleman who went to The Call with Lou Engle, and he believed all kinds of false teaching and false praying things were happening. But I know Lou's teachings and have been to those type of prayer conferences and I had to disagree with him. What he felt was false was, I believe, simply nothing more than his comfort zone being stretched in a way that he didn't like and he misunderstood the purpose behind praying the way they were....so one person's opinion is not good enough for me. I have to hear someone for myself. And this gentleman who went to The Call actually believed that everyone else was being decieved and 'brain-washed' more or less by emotionalism. So the fact that you felt that everyone was simply being deceived except for yourself, makes me question your opinion more than an entire body of christians. And it would make me need even more to hear it for myself. (Though I'm not saying that you weren't right in your conclusions of the teacher.)
< Message edited by SD456 -- 3/23/2008 5:12:28 PM >
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/23/2008 6:18:10 PM
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earthless
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SD,
Do you believe all things stand or fall in light of Scripture?
If so, then your continual comments that no one you listen to has ever preached false teachings, heretical things, is highly incorrect. Sorry sis, but I pray the Lord helps you see what my wife also once did not want to see and admit.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/23/2008 6:34:15 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1131
Joined: 7/22/2005
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quote:
prophetica: However, I believe that many other Churches also pass the collection plate in accordance with the word spoken by the Apostle of God regarding how the leadership has a privelege to marry and gather 10% donations.
Tithing to a church to help fund a meeting place that everyone makes use of and charging money for what is allegedly 'special revelations of God' are two different things. There is no comparison. My pastor doesn't withhold Bible teachings until everyone pays a set amount. My pastor doesn't even ask anyone to tithe.
The apostles didn't charge anyone to hear the revealed truth of God, and they didn't set up shop with their latest 'scrolls of truth' for sale.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 3/23/2008 6:50:05 PM >
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/23/2008 11:00:26 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1070
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
SD,
Do you believe all things stand or fall in light of Scripture?
If so, then your continual comments that no one you listen to has ever preached false teachings, heretical things, is highly incorrect. Sorry sis, but I pray the Lord helps you see what my wife also once did not want to see and admit.
Thanks, earthless, for your prayers. Prayers are always a good thing. I've always said that most teachers have wrong doctrine somewhere. I've never said that anyone is perfect in doctrine, it's impossible for us to have perfection in our doctrine since scripture is not black and white and easily understandable on every subject.
I said that the people I listen to do not contradict scripture or teach heretical teachings as so many on these threads believe people do. I may come to a different conclusion about a scripture or a subject, but that doesn't mean the teacher is false or teaching heresy.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/24/2008 8:03:22 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6355
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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SD,
But do you not find it odd that so many Christians all present the same documentation (FACTS) and concerns about the teachers you choose to adhere to?
Lord knows if any of the preachers I do choose to listen would have a slews and slews of Christians presenting video, audio, written documentation about them I would really be concerned and take a deep and serious study into what was being presented.
< Message edited by earthless -- 3/24/2008 8:16:06 AM >
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/24/2008 11:12:08 AM
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YvonneW
Posts: 25
Joined: 2/14/2008
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quote:
Lord knows if any of the preachers I do choose to listen would have a slews and slews of Christians presenting video, audio, written documentation about them I would really be concerned and take a deep and serious study into what was being presented.
Thank you Earthless.
YW
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/24/2008 11:33:44 AM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1173
Status: offline
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Greetings deareast earthless! Please notice the Teaching of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ: Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets. It is also false to believe that because others speak well of some ministries all the time that they are all in Good Graces with Christ Jesus. For it is written: Everything they do is done for men to see. And, They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men. Because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God --children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. The true believers are not born on their own decision, just as no one enters this world on their own choosing. For no one can come to The Son unless The Father draws them, and no one can come to The Father except by Jesus Christ. The Father chooses those He has born into The Kingdom of God unto Good Fruits to abide in The Love of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior and remain in Him to produce fruit in keeping with repentance; fruit that will last and endure the trials by fire that are to come when people stand before The Great White Throne Judgment Seat Of God. Yet, we are to make every effort to enter through the narrow passage.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
SD,
But do you not find it odd that so many Christians all present the same documentation (FACTS) and concerns about the teachers you choose to adhere to?
Lord knows if any of the preachers I do choose to listen would have a slews and slews of Christians presenting video, audio, written documentation about them I would really be concerned and take a deep and serious study into what was being presented.
< Message edited by prophetica -- 3/24/2008 11:56:28 AM >
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/24/2008 12:16:17 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6355
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
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Prophetica,
Thank God we have the Bible to know what is true and what is false.
No guessing games needed.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/24/2008 12:28:10 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1173
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Amen. For it is written: Jesus said: I Am The Way, The Life, and The Truth. And The Word of God is Living and Active Sharper than any double edged sword Dividing between joints and marrow, even soul and spirit. For The Word became Flesh and Dwelt among us. For this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Prophetica,
Thank God we have the Bible to know what is true and what is false.
No guessing games needed.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/25/2008 2:05:09 AM
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sherronefaith
Posts: 117
Joined: 4/15/2005
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Judge not that you be not judged (Matthew 7 )is God warning to those who know in part, we will know all or enough when God reveals it in His own time. We are just as bad as the Prophets we condemn when we make certain judgments based on presumption. I must agree that discernment is for our protection but are we presenting our bodies a living sacrifice, that we may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God (Romans 1:1-3).
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