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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 3/7/2008 4:59:50 PM
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TwinCityGirl
Posts: 1112
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: peculiar_lady2
I am asking about the "legality" issue....constitutional issue....of the court's ruling to make it illegal to choose to homeschool in the state of CA because of one abusive situation and family who happened to be homeschoolers (that's really what the court case is about...a family who was found to be abusive, then they found that they homeschooled, so they were sent to court over the hsing issue, not the abuse issue)
Sarah, I haven't read the articles and I will go back and do that, but I will answer your question as asked:
No, I do not think the government should make it ILLEGAL for parent(s) to homeschool their children in California or any other state. They are the children of the PARENTS.
While I absolutely believe in car seats for children for safety reasons, I also don't think the government should DEMAND it when parents leave the hospital with their newborn that they PROVE that they have a car seat.
It's kind of along those same lines for me.......people give birth to children and how much intervention should the government have over the family? It just seems really Big Brother to me.
Edited to add: It reminds me of the "mandatory vaccines", too. I know Canada has had some quibbling about possibly making the Gardasil shot (for the HPV virus, a sexually transmitted disease) MANDATORY for girls at age 12, I believe. There is talk of making it MANDATORY to vaccinate your 12-year-old girl for an STD.
That kind of stuff just creeps me out, and it makes me very wary of the government(s) butting in where they do not belong. Does the government of the country you live in OWN YOUR CHILD, or do you? (I know that seems like weird phrasing, but it starts to feel like you buy the USA BABY or the CANADA BABY --- it's creepy.)
Jeanie
< Message edited by TwinCityGirl -- 3/7/2008 5:11:01 PM >
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 3/7/2008 5:03:15 PM
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TwinCityGirl
Posts: 1112
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quote:
ORIGINAL: peculiar_lady2
Jeanie...can you do a weekly check-in in the pregnancy thread for us, cause I know you are getting into the end here and we want to keep up with you (and pray) as best we can. So can ya....huh huh huh.....PWWWEEEEEZZZZEEEEEEE
Hi, Sarah:
The request is really sweet of you. I'm kind of uncomfortable with posting an update there, but I can post one here.
No baby yet. Soon, though. But not yet. Doing well.
Thank you for asking, and for any/all who might be praying. The prayers are felt, God is hearing them, and we just covet the prayers. Thank you!
Jeanie
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 3/7/2008 5:04:59 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
Posts: 5066
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From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
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quote:
While I absolutely believe in car seats for children for safety reasons, I also don't think the government should DEMAND it when parents leave the hospital with their newborn that they PROVE that they have a car seat.
Is that really a government demand or a hospital regulation? Because I know in Colorado that varies by hospital.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 3/7/2008 5:08:14 PM
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TwinCityGirl
Posts: 1112
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
quote:
While I absolutely believe in car seats for children for safety reasons, I also don't think the government should DEMAND it when parents leave the hospital with their newborn that they PROVE that they have a car seat.
Is that really a government demand or a hospital regulation? Because I know in Colorado that varies by hospital.
Yes, Ryanne, you're absolutely correct in that it varies, but it is MANDATED by some hospitals and you have to PROVE it.
What if you are planning on taking the city bus home? Or a cab? Or you live 4 blocks from the hospital and you want to walk home?
Sorry to derail the homeschool topic but it all starts to get blurry to me after a while.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 3/7/2008 5:11:02 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
Posts: 5066
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From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
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Well... I know in places like NYC where most people walk or take a cab you aren't required to show that you have a carseat, there was a HUGE debate over it on my other forum, lol.
Ya know, I have to admit that it doesn't bother me and I wish there was stricter legislation about carseats but it seems everything these days is a slippery slope.
ETA- we could start the whole carseat stricterness(I don't think that's a word) by making Pediatricians take some car seat safety courses. The whole 20lbs and 12 months is SO outdated and yet that's what is still being taught.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 3/7/2008 5:11:34 PM
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nicole6598
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From: Australia
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certified here is qualified Sarah, sorry it was just a language difference.
I understand that teaching at home would be quicker, I am a teacher  I know how long it would take and I know alot of homeschooling families that do it well, but this family did not do it well and instead of playing or going outside or actually doing their curriculum for the week they sat in their rooms on computer games or watching tv, they did not meet standards of some of our lowest achievers.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 3/7/2008 5:12:59 PM
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McGuinessMagee
Posts: 4036
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I believe there are good and bad homeschoolers and there are good and bad teachers.
To show my bias, we did homeschool J and X for several years.
When they entered school I knew where they were at academically, knew that J was behind in English (not because of lack of teaching, because he is one of those students who just isn't interested in it and unfortunately has the personality that if he's not interested, he's also not interested in learning - believe me I tried every method I knew and some more besides to make English relevant to the things he is interested in) and we told the school that when he started.
The person in the position to decide which class he went into told us he was going into one year level and because he was in a composite class we didn't find out until the six month report that she'd put him into the year above.
J started having issues with bullying and we talked to this person. J stopped coming home and telling us that the bullying was continuing because he thought we'd gone to the highest authority.
Eighteen months after starting at that school J finally snapped and did something which got him suspended for four weeks. The deputy principal who we had talked to about the bullying hadn't actually done anything. We found she hadn't even recorded the visit dh had made to her office over the issue let alone any phone calls.
And what we found ourselves with was a suicidal 11yo who was being ostracised because he'd finally reacted, all because one teacher hadn't fulfilled their obligation of care.
Now, some would say that J was a prime target for bullying because he hadn't learnt to socialise and it was all because we chose to homeschool, it was our fault that he didn't have the skills to deal with other children.
Add into that mix his little sister who is extremely social by nature and had no trouble fitting in at school at all.
And then add to that that there are children who attend school from Kindergarten who are just as victimised.
School isn't the answer to socialisation. And a child who isn't social is not always the product of lack of opportunity to socialise (we did take our children to many places where they had the opportunity to be social while homeschooling.
Abuse can happen in the home. And abuse can happen at school.
In our situation the abuse took place at school. Should school be made illegal because of our experience?
I have no problem with the idea of a person having to prove they have the capacity to teach their children. I don't necessarily thing that is defined by how long a person has sat through lectures and whether they can regurgitate the latest educational jargon.
The person I believe was responsible for the abuse of our son had all the degrees and status required for her role. What she lacked was simple compassion.
Kylie 
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When joy was stripped away, pain was the friend who convinced me I was still alive, but when sorrow left me empty none remained to tell me I was dead
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 3/7/2008 5:15:12 PM
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bride48
Posts: 5576
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Near Boston
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Can we say "socialism" ladies?
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DebbieLynne
Thankfulness (my latest blog entry)
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 3/7/2008 5:17:48 PM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10416
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From: Cow country, Upstate NY
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Homeschool...I absolutely do not think our government, in any form, has the right to make homeschooling illegal. I am not currently hsing, but live in one of the strictest states as far as regulations. I do not oppose those regulations at all. I believe they are reasonable and help keep people on track who might otherwise have trouble staying there. I don't believe the government should be able to come in and inspect a homeschool without just cause, but I don't believe logging hours/days, taking a test once a year, and sending the district superintendent a report card are too much for a legitimate homeschooler.
Car seats...in our area, you have to have a car or ride in someone else's, so yes, the hospital does make you bring in the car seat and show them that you know how to use it. If you don't have one, the county has a program available that will give one to you, so there is no excuse. To me, car seat and seat belt laws for children are necessary and need to be enforced MORE, not less. I see way too many kids bouncing around in cars because their parents either don't care or don't demand that they buckle up. Adults buckling up, I don't feel the same about, but kids should not be able to decide such an important thing and there are people who would never have or use car seats for their kids if they didn't have to.
BTW, forget who mentioned ACSI Christian schools having certified teachers. They don't all have to be certified to qualify for ACSI standing, just a certain percentage, which is not that high. I think our school has 3 or 4 certified teachers, out of 15, and we were ACSI until the costs of membership outweighed the benefits last year.
< Message edited by PrincessDonna -- 3/7/2008 5:24:23 PM >
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 3/7/2008 5:20:50 PM
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Nicole_Michelle
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quote:
So I went out with the lady today (that I mentioned I'd felt God leading me to ask her do something with after prayer meeting.) I LOVE her! She's so sweet and fun! I think we will be good friends. I'm excited.
That is so awesome!!!
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For the love of photography - my blog
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 3/7/2008 5:44:04 PM
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solo_soprano22
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I don't want to get too involved. Any thread where some don't believe in homeschooling and others do tend to get out of hand. I think I actually stated why I think that way somewhere above. There's not a whole lot more to it than that for me.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 3/7/2008 5:47:44 PM
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bride48
Posts: 5576
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From: Near Boston
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Some standardized testing should be in place, but certication...? No.
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DebbieLynne
Thankfulness (my latest blog entry)
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 3/7/2008 6:28:24 PM
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Krislynx
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Tamara, sorry if I was pushy. Also, sorry about the organic chem reference - it wasn't meant to be a dig, I just thought of the most advanced classes I took in high school (public) and listed those. For me advanced math and chemistry will be 2 of the most difficult things to teach at home so they readily come to mind anyway. Once again, sorry.
Kris
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 3/7/2008 6:45:40 PM
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purejoy
Posts: 881
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna
Homeschool...I absolutely do not think our government, in any form, has the right to make homeschooling illegal. I am not currently hsing, but live in one of the strictest states as far as regulations. I do not oppose those regulations at all. I believe they are reasonable and help keep people on track who might otherwise have trouble staying there. I don't believe the government should be able to come in and inspect a homeschool without just cause, but I don't believe logging hours/days, taking a test once a year, and sending the district superintendent a report card are too much for a legitimate homeschooler.
I tend to agree with Donna.
There are some terrible homeschoolers. One of my friends was "homeschooled" so that she could stay home and watch her younger siblings while her mom went out and did things people shouldn't be doing.
There are some awesome homeschoolers....those whose first priority is their child's education. I think the biggest piece is that you don't have to know everything, you just have to know where to find the right resources. Hook up with a co-op, or do the video courses you can enroll in. Just do something rather than nothing about those subjects you're not "qualified" to teach.
Going off a little bit here, but for me personally, as a blanket statement, I will not homeschool. I was homeschooled for a year, bascially to try it and do something fun. It was a great year, and I was also glad to go back to a Christian day school after that. But for my husband and I, we have been very convicted that we should not homeschool in order to seclude or insulate or children from the "real" world. I know we will be strict parents and they won't be watching, reading, or doing things that they should not be. But we feel very led that for us, we need to be a light IN the world. Honestly, going from a Christian day school to a public high school was one of the best things for me. Not only for my individual growth, but also for my exposure to others with different beliefs, and learning how to love, accept, and be Christ to so many other people.
I know that can happen while being homeschool as well, but I guess the main thing for us is not to homeschool out of fear. If we have a child that has special needs, or even just needs to not be in the classroom, then we would absolutely homeschool. For us, it's the motive behind it.
If any of that makes sense. 
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 3/7/2008 7:06:51 PM
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lexie
Posts: 3034
Joined: 6/27/2005
From: Toronto
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There are a few situations in which I would homeschool. Like if we are living in our current neighbourhood, I would not send Akeelah to the school across the street.
We plan to start working on the Kindergarten curriculum with Akeelah shortly before she goes to school. It goes back to how school is done in Dh's country and when they started.
While I think there should be some sort of "check-up" on those who do homeschool, and it's something I would fully submit to if I hs'ed, I just don't know how they would do it. For example, I cannot teach my child high school math because I did not do it myself. But my husband is a high school math teacher and could do it. Or we would hire a tutor...but how do they make sure we are doing that. Plus, having a knowledge of a subject or a university degree in it doesn't mean that you'll actually put any effort into homeschooling. So I don't know how they would check up on it. But I don't think it should be illegal. Basically I don't have any answer how to make sure it's done properly.
Car seats - the lady next to me in the hospital when I had Keke went into labour a month early. They didn't have a car seat, they did not own a car and planned to take a cab home. The hospital told them they would not be allowed to leave without a car seat so the day his child was born, the man was running around trying to buy one. Besides, I don't think any responsible cab driver would take a baby without a car seat...what if there was an accident on the way and something happened to the baby, they could be sued (since we live in a sue-happy world).
quote:
I know Canada has had some quibbling about possibly making the Gardasil shot (for the HPV virus, a sexually transmitted disease) MANDATORY for girls at age 12, I believe. There is talk of making it MANDATORY to vaccinate your 12-year-old girl for an STD
I haven't heard any talk of it being mandatory....Merck would like it to be. What's happened here with it is the governments (federal and provincial) are funding it the same way they do any other vaccination for our children. So if we want our children to have it at the age of 12, then our doctor or schools will do it for free. If we choose not to get it we do not have to sign anything the way we do if we opt out of the MMR vaccines for example (which is only required for schooling...we have opted out thus far and haven't come up against anything).
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 3/7/2008 8:04:42 PM
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uponeagleswings
Posts: 1710
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Out here in the desert
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Thanks for bringing this topic over Sarah- I've been reading along in the HS folder but didn't want to post there. I think most of what I have to say has already been said.
What gets me about this case is that the courts looked at a family that obviously had some issues (reports of abuse, etc), and decided that homeschooling was the problem, then generalized it to all hs households to make hs illegal. The ruling also says lots of things that imply that the state has more power over what kids learn than the parents do. The part about requiring a certified tutor to teach is absurd for a hs family (probably the idea). Most teaching certifications are 4 year degrees, but only cover a specific range of grades. Being certified to teach grades K-3, 4-6, and 8-12 would require completing 3 different 4 year teaching programs (with some possibility for overlap). And how about the double standard that private schools can employ non-certified teachers, but students who are being "individually tutored (hs)" need certified tutors??
I am certified to teach elementary and special ed, and unless God changes DH's and my mind we are planning to homeschool whatever children we have. I have my reasons why, but I don't need to go into them here I can see requiring SOME SORT of certification and oversight to homeschool, in order to deter the lazy "homeschoolers"- maybe a few hours course on record keeping and accountability, to be renewed every few years, but then we get into the whole slippery slope argument among other things. I'm cynical about standardized testing in general- there's lots of research to show that its not such a great thing, but some sort of accountability could be a good thing.
I'm not sure what the hs rules are in AZ, but I've read in several times that it is one of the most lenient hs states there is. Which could be good, because many of the schools in our area aren't that great. We have lots of small charter schools here too.
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I don't want my children to take standardized tests. My standards are higher than the government's.
