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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/17/2008 10:34:14 PM
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whisperingwaters
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quote:
ORIGINAL: delete123
Blasphemy the Holy Spirit is rejection of God. As the Three make one
God the Father
God The Son
God the Holy Spirit
3 which are *1*
I dissagree but I'm not going to argue about it.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/17/2008 10:46:13 PM
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jonfortean6
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I guess I understand. Maybe I misunderstood what this thread is about.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/17/2008 10:49:54 PM
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whisperingwaters
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I'm responding here again because of the pm I got as I said I do not want to debate this but I will give my stand on it.
I just believe that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and rejection of God are two different things.
Basically to my understanding blasphemy would be cursing the Holy Spirit, I'm not saying this is an exaustive deffinition of blaspheming the Holy Spirit but that it gives the basic idea.
Now rejection of God is a whole other thing; people can be alive in God then for some reason turn their back on God and reject Him in their lives. Just because someone is rejecting God does not mean they are cursing Him.
I also do believe in a triune God in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
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The words of a man's mouth are as deep waters, and the well-spring of wisdom as a flowing brook. Proverbs 18:4
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/17/2008 11:04:39 PM
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whisperingwaters
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jonfortean6
But... I so understand what you guys are saying, but even if you call suicide murder, where does it say in the Bible that if someone is born again and he murders someone, he are no longer going to heaven?
The bible does say that murderers will have their part in the lake of fire (Rev. 21:8). God also told Noah that murderers would be required to pay for their sin in his new covenent with Noah that the sin of murder would be required on each persons head.
I personaly believe that suicide does not send someone to Hell garenteed. The person commiting suicide could very easily ask for forgivness during the act of commiting suicide and therefore would still be heaven bound, even saying this I am not of the opinon that we must confess each and every sin or we are going to hell.
I was one of those who once attempted suicide and I believe I would of gone to heaven if I had been successfull, at the time I was praying for forgivness for the sin I was commiting but I also have asurance in my salvation with God and do not believe that act would send me to Hell.
I some times today think of suicide and when I do I ask God to forgive me for thinking about it even.
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The words of a man's mouth are as deep waters, and the well-spring of wisdom as a flowing brook. Proverbs 18:4
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/18/2008 8:13:28 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters
I'm responding here again because of the pm I got as I said I do not want to debate this but I will give my stand on it.
I just believe that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and rejection of God are two different things.
Basically to my understanding blasphemy would be cursing the Holy Spirit, I'm not saying this is an exaustive deffinition of blaspheming the Holy Spirit but that it gives the basic idea.
Now rejection of God is a whole other thing; people can be alive in God then for some reason turn their back on God and reject Him in their lives. Just because someone is rejecting God does not mean they are cursing Him.
I also do believe in a triune God in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
I agree with you. Calling rejection of the Gospel the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is a manipulative and modern day claim of some unlearned evangelists and preachers - probably borrowed from a pseudo-theologian they heard on radio years ago. It sounds good to anyone unwilling to study the scripture on the subject, but it is definitely twisting the scripture.
I heard the same ear-tickling claim that rejecting the Gospel is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit quite a number of years ago but had to discount it once I read the Lord's words in context on the matter.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/18/2008 9:09:43 AM
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jonfortean6
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Actually, I believe that one way someone blasphemes the Holy Spirit is by rejecting the gospel. But this is a whole new topic for a whole new thread. I wouldn't mind discussing it though.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/18/2008 12:32:22 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jonfortean6
Actually, I believe that one way someone blasphemes the Holy Spirit is by rejecting the gospel. But this is a whole new topic for a whole new thread. I wouldn't mind discussing it though.
Blaspheming the Holy Spirit, according to Jesus, is attributing miracles of the Holy Spirit to Satan.
It may sound pious to call rejecting the Gospel a way to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, but it is adding to both what the Lord said and its contextual meaning.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/18/2008 12:38:26 PM
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Kath
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quote:
But this is a whole new topic for a whole new thread. I wouldn't mind discussing it though.
I imagine we have a thread or two in the God folder if someone wants to check, if not then someone could start a thread over there.
Thanks!
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/18/2008 12:56:17 PM
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delete123
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quote:
ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters
quote:
ORIGINAL: delete123
Ther is only one sin that one is not forgiven for and that is total rejection of God.
Acording to the bible the only unforgiveable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and not rejection of God.
I apologize for my error. I looked it up last night and you are right. The only unforgiven sin is Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit
CRH
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/18/2008 12:57:26 PM
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dyluck
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Very interested in discussing that other topic! someone please post the link if it gets created.
Ok back to our topic at hand:
What do you guys think of this verse then?
Hebrews 10:26-27 "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries."
This is what I understand: If you go on sinning willfully after knowing truth (what is pleasing to God?), then no longer is there santification for you (you had it and now it's gone); therefore no ability to forgive because you aren't santified by the blood of Jesus any more "no longer".
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/18/2008 8:01:21 PM
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Kath
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but this is off topic. Please get back to "Is suicide forgiven"
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/19/2008 12:46:44 PM
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CCCdnt
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Issues such as this will probably never be settled this side of heaven. There is not a universal agreement about the "security of the believer" among professing Christians. Some examples of different beliefs about salvation among professing Christian are as follows: once saved/always saved, twice lost/always lost, possible for a Christian to forfiet his salvation (not by committing a particular sin X number of times but by choosing to no longer to want to be in Christ / no longer believing in Christ / no longer wanting to be saved / etc.), possible to no longer be saved by committing certain sins such as murder, lying, as well as possibly other variations of these beliefs. The belief about what happens to a professing Christian after suicide is usually based on one's belief about the security of the believer. This is why it is difficult to discuss a topic such as this without it getting into the area of eternal security versus conditional security. This is why when I comment in threads such as this I will usually give examples of the different beliefs among professing Christians.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/19/2008 1:43:51 PM
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CCCdnt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
But there is only 1 truth. would you not agree CCCdnt?
Yes, I agree.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/23/2008 8:15:10 PM
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cwb
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quote:
In the blog it refers to the following: "The ναοϚ (naos) is the Most Holy Place in which God uniquely dwelt in the O.T. tabernacle and temple." As being in context that naos, God's temple, over the church as a whole.
Don't know blogs...
The temple is where God is. A church is a meeting of 2 believing persons [temples]. The church is all believers, collectively.
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We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/24/2008 9:16:22 AM
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dyluck
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
quote:
In the blog it refers to the following: "The íáïϚ (naos) is the Most Holy Place in which God uniquely dwelt in the O.T. tabernacle and temple." As being in context that naos, God's temple, over the church as a whole.
Don't know blogs...
The temple is where God is. A church is a meeting of 2 believing persons [temples]. The church is all believers, collectively.
This was from another thread we were talking about where it says "our body is the temple of God" - After the curtian ripped, we are now the temple of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
We were looking into if this verse was linked to Suicide. Now apparently this verse was written in context of church leaders leading their church away from truth and essencially "destryoing" God's temple. Now the only part that really gets me is where it says "you are that temple"... As far as I know this part of the statment is directed at the congregation itself.
So anyway that is the history of that.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/24/2008 5:57:16 PM
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cwb
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
Yeah - that 'context' does lead one to believe suicide isn't forgiven. But then, homocide, destruction of another's temple, can be forgiven, so...
???
I am believing it can be forgiven.
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We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/24/2008 6:00:58 PM
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beachcooky
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
Yeah - that 'context' does lead one to believe suicide isn't forgiven. But then, homocide, destruction of another's temple, can be forgiven, so...
???
I am believing it can be forgiven.
All sins are forgiven...like I said earlier. Except the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. It doesn't say, "Your sin is not going to be forgiven if you destroy God's temple." No, it does not.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/24/2008 8:40:52 PM
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Robert_G
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I've said this before.
It's not whether suicide can be forgiven or not. Suicide like any other sin can be forgiven.
The burning question is: Was the person who committed suicide a Christian or NOT?
That is what matters.
Lets look at some of the worst sins out there.
If I asked you approx what % of pedophiles went to heaven after being executed, you'd probably say 0, or maybe 1%...just going on estimates here. (I've seen the posts and opinions from people here on regards to pedophiles, so I'm probably not far off)
In fact, many people here would even doubt them if they said they had become saved on death row, because according to many people on this forum, pedophiles deserve hell more then anyone else. (And no, I didn't make that up)
If I asked you the same question of people who'd committed 1st degree murder and then committed suicide, the % would probably not be much higher.
If I asked the same question about people who blatantly, maliciously preach a false gospel, and then they committed suicide, you'd probably also say 0%.
And on each of those 3 questions, I'd probably agree with you, except for the part about a pedophile deserving hell more then the rest of us.
We all deserve it equally.
Again...Heaven for them? Possible, yes. Probable? No
So...then we ask the same question of someone who takes their own life, which IS first degree murder, not to mention suicide covers several other sins as well.
Again...the burning question is....Can a Christian take his own life???
Possible? Yes....Probable?....No
There are always exceptions, but on the grand scale of things, a Christian will NOT fall that deep into sin, just like Christians don't rape little boys and girls, they also won't murder themselves in Cold blood, nor another person, nor will they blatantly, maliciously preach a false gospel.
Christians do NOT do these sins, nor do they take their own lives.
Its time Christians STOP trying to trump the truth (scripture) with their feelings and emotions. Yes its sad when someone we love takes their own life, but our hurt feelings don't change what the bible says about murderers.
Christians do NOT murder in cold blood.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/24/2008 9:05:48 PM
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beachcooky
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
I've said this before.
It's not whether suicide can be forgiven or not. Suicide like any other sin can be forgiven.
The burning question is: Was the person who committed suicide a Christian or NOT?
That is what matters.
Lets look at some of the worst sins out there.
If I asked you approx what % of pedophiles went to heaven after being executed, you'd probably say 0, or maybe 1%...just going on estimates here. (I've seen the posts and opinions from people here on regards to pedophiles, so I'm probably not far off)
In fact, many people here would even doubt them if they said they had become saved on death row, because according to many people on this forum, pedophiles deserve hell more then anyone else. (And no, I didn't make that up)
If I asked you the same question of people who'd committed 1st degree murder and then committed suicide, the % would probably not be much higher.
If I asked the same question about people who blatantly, maliciously preach a false gospel, and then they committed suicide, you'd probably also say 0%.
And on each of those 3 questions, I'd probably agree with you, except for the part about a pedophile deserving hell more then the rest of us.
We all deserve it equally.
Again...Heaven for them? Possible, yes. Probable? No
So...then we ask the same question of someone who takes their own life, which IS first degree murder, not to mention suicide covers several other sins as well.
Again...the burning question is....Can a Christian take his own life???
Possible? Yes....Probable?....No
There are always exceptions, but on the grand scale of things, a Christian will NOT fall that deep into sin, just like Christians don't rape little boys and girls, they also won't murder themselves in Cold blood, nor another person, nor will they blatantly, maliciously preach a false gospel.
Christians do NOT do these sins, nor do they take their own lives.
Its time Christians STOP trying to trump the truth (scripture) with their feelings and emotions. Yes its sad when someone we love takes their own life, but our hurt feelings don't change what the bible says about murderers.
Christians do NOT murder in cold blood.
Woo, amen :]
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/25/2008 9:44:52 AM
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d4nnyb0y02
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Is suicide forgiven? That depends on one thing I suppose--Is suicide a sin?
Sins are what we are forgiven of by God's grace... so if suicide is sinful, then yes, it is forgiven. Seems to meet the criteria to me.
We aren't forgiven (saved) because we don't sin, or because we confess every sin individually and specifically... We are saved by the grace of God, His gift, and His faithfulness to us... having once trusted Christ for our salvation.
< Message edited by d4nnyb0y02 -- 9/25/2008 9:55:15 AM >
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/25/2008 7:45:40 PM
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dyluck
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I think some people have a gross missconception of the nature at which sin is detestible to God. Yes we sin and we all fall short of the glory of God, but we don't go on sinning (habitual sin) and nor are we to willfully sin... Suicide is willful sin (especially those who do not have chemical imbalances in their brain). If someone argues that Suicide is not willfull (on purpose) then I don't know what to say... Suicide is none other then willful...
1 Peter 4:16-19
16However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. 17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18And,
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"
19So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.
Here's an interesting one... maybe someone can clarify... "Sin that leads to Death"
1 John 5:16-17
16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.
Also, how can someone who commit suicide repent? they cannot turn away because their sin is absolute. It is a sin that leads to death... I'm not discrediting God's forgiveness at all please and once again in the end, God will judge... I just wouldn't take my chances... I would rather live a life in this earth in absolute misery then have the rather large chance of going to hell.
The bible does give clues to suicide (seen above and other versus people have posted).
Lastly this is the whopper!!!!! Please read this study it and then think again before purposly sinning... A christian is dead to sin and alive in Christ.. they are not longer a slave to it and sin should be detestable to them even if they have to live under horrible circumstances.... Look at Lazarous and the rich man for instance... What a horrible life Lazarous had, but look where he is now!
Read below: And please don't call Peter a Legalist... It's in the bible; therefore GOD wanted it there and therefore we should Obey it as the inspired word of God....
Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Verse 31 is interesting too... Shows you that God saved you through his Son from himself, for himself and his Glory. Please brothers and sisters, we need to stop testing God's Holy Grace... We are all still sitting at our computer becuase of the Grace of God... We all deserve Hell... That IS the GRACE of God. Jesus came because of the Grace of God... We have a chance of salvation because of the Grace of God. God says he wants everyone to come to repentance, but it doesn't say everyone will come to repentance. This is the "will" God has given us. To choose...
I will repeat again Read Romans 6
Brotherly love!
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/26/2008 12:14:31 AM
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d4nnyb0y02
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Hebrews is not a the whopper in the light of your interpretation, but is a whopper in the light of interpretting it through Christ's sacrifice.
There is no more sacrifice for sin. Even if you want to, you cannot. It is not an option. Christ has fullfilled everything. If you have received knowledge of the truth, you cannot return or make ammends through sacrifice -- there remains no more sacrifice for sins. Attempting to do so would only be trampling the blood of Christ (His Work, His Gift, His Promise) underfoot. We just realize that it is by grace, not of works... lest any man boast. There is no sacrifice for sins. Christ has done it all, period, the end.
It is a whopper indeed. It has nothing to do with "being good enough" with sacrifices, or earning our salvation by sacrifices. There remains no more sacrifice... Christ is it... it is finished.
You misunderstand the power of God in His intent to save us... :) We don't have to repent for every sin, every time we sin. We repent (turn towards God, and trust in Christ) when we are saved. To think that having unconfessed sin when we die will end us in hell... is a slippery slope which is not the Gospel of grace we have in Christ. It just isn't, period. Is suicide sinful? Well, by all means yes. So are all of the sins you have committed, but forgotten about. God forbid that we should earn our salvation, by naming every sin specifically... and being sorry for each sin, specifically. I trust Christ to know my sin, and then to remember my sin no more.
Should I return to the swine pits, there will still remain no more sacrifice for sins. We must return to grace, where it all began. Trying to "justify" ourselves will only be trampling the blood of Christ underfoot. There is no sacrifice for sins... it is finished! We are saved, and saved forever by His finished work. This is the Gospel of grace, and there is no other, praise the Lord.
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