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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/27/2008 10:49:50 AM
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CCCdnt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cchris
I don´t want to get into a debate over the technicalities of a definition.
After all is said and done, only God knows whether a person is worthy of being excused for any particular sin. I wouldn`t even begin to know. But for the price that was payed, whatever decision is beyond reproach.
I agree with you, Jesus is the only path to salvation. However, I believe that Jesus can guide any soul that he wants, even if it has to be done from beyond the grave.
I will not say much as this seems to be a topic better suited for the Salvation folder, but if you are saying that a person that dies lost can still be saved, the Bible does not support this.
< Message edited by CCCdnt -- 5/27/2008 4:22:57 PM >
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Biblical Doctrine vs Personal Opinion - 5/28/2008 12:37:14 PM
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Neanderthal75
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From: Oil Patch
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Hey there,
Man, do I ever know where you're coming from!!!!!
I just got through debating two Sisters in Christ, whom were doing their best to defend Benny Hinn and the rest of the Word of Faith false teaching crew.
They would not, under any circumstances, accept the admonitions from the Apostles Peter, Paul, and Christ Himself, that we are to confront false teachers, preachers, and prophets.
They kept up the mantra of 'not judging' the persons, and could/would NOT separate that from their teachings.
They kept on with the 'preach love' and don't be 'negative'.
You know, when you address the issue of salvation, and how many people will choose salvation over damnation, as you have tentatively here, you find that people really do NOT like to honestly, openly, or forthrightly, look at those numbers.
If we were to use the Jews of the Exodus as the paradigm, by the time the survivors finally made it through the 40 years 'on the road', only about 1/3 of the original bunch starting out made it to the Promised Land. The majority, 2/3'rds, went down to damnation and destruction.
When we turn to Revelations (Book of the Apocolypse), we see that when God rains down His Wrath upon the Earth, 50%, HALF of all humans are killed by God through the Vial and Bowl Judgements.
You tell people holding the predominant "God is Love" doctrines (rejecting the Holy side of God's Character) that God is going to kill 50% of all the humans on the planet during His Wrath on the Anti-Christ, and they'll look at you with horror, disbelief, and yes, condemnation, because you've had the temerity to actually cite Scripture which tells such a prophecy.
Paul and Peter had it right (how could they not, with the Holy Spirit giving them the Lowdown?); in the End Times, people would cling to teachers/preachers telling them false things, which their 'itching ears' wished to hear.
The wolves are loose Brother, and those of us holding solid doctrinal views of COMPLETE SCRIPTURE, are going to have a harder and harder time from our own, than we will from Unbelievers.
It's not a pretty picture, but then, compared with what our brothers Peter and Paul had to face and what they went through, we're swimming in gravy.
Cheers Brother
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Neanderthal
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/28/2008 12:39:50 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
I never said nor tried to imply that salvation is kept by works. Not believing in OSAS is not the same as believing that salvation is kept by works.
Sure it is. It's certainly not Grace if it's up to your good efforts.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/28/2008 12:45:04 PM
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P31W
Posts: 3003
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I don't believe ANY of us are ever able to understand "all our sins"..... I think God's thoughts and ways are so much higher than our own that we are not even above to "go there".......Most of what we do may come from some sinful hidden motive and we don't even realize it.
If confessing each and evey sin was something that was required to be saved then all of us would spend "all" our time saying 'forgive me of all my sins" and would never be able to get on with our lives.
It's hard to try to live a life that allows you to fall off the grace wagon all the time. Either I am in Christ hands or I am not. He won't let me slip though so I don't worry about where am I going if I die from eating too much, drinking too much, not exercising enough, not going to the doctor for regular medical check ups or taking a gun to my head.
Slow death caused by my own actions or a fast one caused by my own actions does not matter. Christ died for me and because He is who He said He is then I am who He says I am....a Child of God.
My answer to the OP is yes we are forgiven of our sins even suicide. (no matter if we commit it over a long period of time or quickly)
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/28/2008 12:51:17 PM >
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/28/2008 11:22:22 PM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 359
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
I never said nor tried to imply that salvation is kept by works. Not believing in OSAS is not the same as believing that salvation is kept by works.
Sure it is.
I would imagine that most likely you and I would have different ideas as to what actually constitutes a "work".
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/29/2008 10:56:04 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
I never said nor tried to imply that salvation is kept by works. Not believing in OSAS is not the same as believing that salvation is kept by works.
Sure it is.
I would imagine that most likely you and I would have different ideas as to what actually constitutes a "work".
We shouldn't have. A "work" is something based on your own merits. Grace is entirely an undeserved, unmerited gift of God - you don't receive it by keeping or doing anything. As the song goes, "Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe."
Another song says it equally as well:
My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness.
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly trust in Jesus’ Name.
On Christ the solid Rock I stand,
All other ground is sinking sand;
All other ground is sinking sand.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/29/2008 11:05:48 AM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 359
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Grace is entirely an undeserved, unmerited gift of God - you don't receive it by keeping or doing anything.
If what I put in bold were true, then universalism would be true (everyone would be saved). The Bible does say a person must do some things to be saved - a person must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, confess that Jesus is Lord, believe in his heart that God raised Him from the dead, accept Jesus as Savior, etc. All of these are conscious actions one must do to be saved.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/29/2008 11:10:22 AM
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Roberta_
Posts: 7000
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Why does this thread keep turning to OSAS?
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/29/2008 11:14:50 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Grace is entirely an undeserved, unmerited gift of God - you don't receive it by keeping or doing anything.
If what I put in bold were true, then universalism would be true (everyone would be saved)...
Nonsense. Unless you're deliberately being obtuse, you apparently do not understand salvation. That's okay, God doesn't expect you to understand everything before He'll save you.
He won't even kick you out for trying to maintain what you couldn't earn and deserve in the first place.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/29/2008 11:15:33 AM
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essence1
Posts: 8
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Grace is entirely an undeserved, unmerited gift of God - you don't receive it by keeping or doing anything.
If what I put in bold were true, then universalism would be true (everyone would be saved). The Bible does say a person must do some things to be saved - a person must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, confess that Jesus is Lord, believe in his heart that God raised Him from the dead, accept Jesus as Savior, etc. All of these are conscious actions one must do to be saved.
What about people who die before they do all of that? For example, small children.
< Message edited by essence1 -- 5/29/2008 11:23:30 AM >
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/29/2008 11:19:08 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Why does this thread keep turning to OSAS?
Some of those who reject the notion that Jesus really means eternal life when His word says eternal life think if a person commits suicide they lose their salvation because they don't have a chance to ask forgiveness before they die. By extension, they believe that anyone killed or that dies suddenly with unforgiven sin, forfeits their salvation.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/29/2008 11:23:30 AM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 359
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Why does this thread keep turning to OSAS?
Probably because, as was discussed prior, a person's belief in OSAS will a lot of times determine his/her belief on what happens to a professing Christian that committs suicide. If OSAS is true, then if one believes it is possible for a Christian to committ suicide, then the person is still saved after he committs suicide. Some believe the Bible teaches it is possible for a Christian to fall away from Christ and to return to a lost state. If that is the correct position, then if a person that was a professing Christian committed suicide, there would be the possibility that the person had fallen away from Christ and was no longer saved (this would be where the act of suicide would be possible evidence that the person was no longer saved and not the cause of the person becoming lost). There are also those that believe that certain sins, murder being one, that if left unrepented, will cause a Christian to no longer be saved. If this is the correct position, then since suicide is self-murder, and one that a person cannot repent of (if the death is instant), then the person would die lost.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/29/2008 11:30:56 AM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 359
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Grace is entirely an undeserved, unmerited gift of God - you don't receive it by keeping or doing anything.
If what I put in bold were true, then universalism would be true (everyone would be saved)...
Nonsense. Unless you're deliberately being obtuse, you apparently do not understand salvation. That's okay, God doesn't expect you to understand everything before He'll save you.
He won't even kick you out for trying to maintain what you couldn't earn and deserve in the first place.
Romans 10:9-10
9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
John 3:16
16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Your words were that a person does not receive grace [salvation] by doing anything. The Bible says that one must believe in Jesus to have eternal life. "Believing in Jesus" is doing something. Belief is a conscious act.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/29/2008 11:32:51 AM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 359
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quote:
ORIGINAL: essence1
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Grace is entirely an undeserved, unmerited gift of God - you don't receive it by keeping or doing anything.
If what I put in bold were true, then universalism would be true (everyone would be saved). The Bible does say a person must do some things to be saved - a person must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, confess that Jesus is Lord, believe in his heart that God raised Him from the dead, accept Jesus as Savior, etc. All of these are conscious actions one must do to be saved.
What about people who die before they do all of that? For example, small children.
I believe that children that die before they are old enough to understand who Jesus is, understand what salvation is, etc. go to be with the Lord. This is also a subject of debate among Christians.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/29/2008 11:34:36 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
...There are also those that believe that certain sins, murder being one, that if left unrepented, will cause a Christian to no longer be saved. If this is the correct position, then since suicide is self-murder, and one that a person cannot repent of (if the death is instant), then the person would die lost.
Where would anyone get the idea in scripture that some sins are okie dokie to die with unrepented? Jesus did not leave heaven, take on the flesh, suffer extreme pain & shame, die a horrible death on the cross just to cover "major" sins. He would have to have done all that if the entire human race had only committed "minor" sins.
It's minimizes Jesus' completed work on the cross to categorize sin as "hell-worthy" or the kind God just smiles at and excuses.
If anyone expects to get into heaven any other way than entirely on the merits of Jesus, they are going to be disappointed.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/29/2008 11:36:43 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
Your words were that a person does not receive grace [salvation] by doing anything. The Bible says that one must believe in Jesus to have eternal life. "Believing in Jesus" is doing something. Belief is a conscious act.
Tell us, how did you EARN your salvation and what was your particular good quality that made you worthy of grace?
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/29/2008 11:37:47 AM
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Qtman
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Jimbo I don't know about you but reading some of these post makes me very thankful that when I am standing in front of the Judgment Throne it will be He that sits on that throne and not them.
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A friend gave me a report with Stats showing that 4,153,237 people got married last year. Now I don't want to start any trouble but I can't help but wonder. Shouldn't that be an even number?
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/29/2008 11:42:16 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
Jimbo I don't know about you but reading some of these post makes me very thankful that when I am standing in front of the Judgment Throne it will be He that sits on that throne and not them.
But some seem so sold on their inherent goodness they might expect to at least be His advisor.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/29/2008 12:27:14 PM
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essence1
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I don't believe God's love is as easy to escape as some may think.
"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the LOVE OF GOD that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom. 8:38,39,
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/29/2008 2:11:45 PM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 359
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
Your words were that a person does not receive grace [salvation] by doing anything. The Bible says that one must believe in Jesus to have eternal life. "Believing in Jesus" is doing something. Belief is a conscious act.
Tell us, how did you EARN your salvation and what was your particular good quality that made you worthy of grace?
Please show me in which post I said that I believe salvation has to be or can be earned. Also, please show me in which post I said that I was "worthy of grace".
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/29/2008 2:14:42 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
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quote:
ORIGINAL: essence1
I don't believe God's love is as easy to escape as some may think.
"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the LOVE OF GOD that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom. 8:38,39,
Well said!
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/29/2008 2:31:15 PM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 359
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
You wrote in another thread:
quote:
...Bible shows that murderers and liars have the same spiritual consequence...
That would indicate to me you think that a born again believer who commits suicide and another born again believer who tells a lie, however slight, then drops dead will both go to the same place, hell, because both have died with unrepented sin of the same magnitude.
That's a sad way to live...
Did you even read the context of that particular post? That post was dealing with the issue of abortion in the context of whether or not a Christian should support a candidate that is pro-choice. The person to which I responded had quoted the verse that said that murderers, liars, etc. will have their part in the lake of fire (not trying to be word for word here...trying to pull from memory), and said that we should not vote for anyone based on this. I said that she was arguing out of context because the discussion was not the spiritual consequences of sin. To further make my point I asked if she would advocate that a person that lied in court receive the same judgement in a court of law as a person that cuts a baby into pieces, because that was the context from which she seemed to be arguing.
To further address your post, please show me where I indicated that I believe that committing a sin of some type will cause a Christian to lose his salvation.
If you notice in my posts, I have pointed out what different Christians believe about salvation - OSAS versus CS - and the variants of CS. While I did point out that some believe that committing certain sins and not repenting of them will cause a Christian to become lost, I did not say if I believe that or not. As I recall, the only belief I have made known in these posts that I believe about salvation is that it is conditional. I intentionally have tried to stay away from elaborating on the specifics of my beliefs regarding this to try to avoid what you seem to be trying to do...debate the security of the believer. There is a one-stop thread for that. I have been in that thread before and see little point in debating in it again. Most that can be said from either side of the debate has already been said and neither side is usually swade. I would guess that if a full-blown debate erupted on OSAS in this thread that the moderators would step in and direct the thread back to topic. However, if I see a thread such as this one where the answer to the question will vary depending on one'e beliefe about the security of the believer, I will post just that...that there are different beliefs among professing Christians regarding "eternal security" and the answer received will depend on which belief the person answering holds.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/29/2008 3:15:41 PM
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Kath
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This thread is not about OSAS.
If the thread does not move from OSAS I'll have to start deleting and ask Fritz to restrict those who insist on turning it in that direction.
Sincerely
Kath
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< Message edited by Kath -- 5/29/2008 3:25:21 PM >
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