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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/25/2008 2:27:54 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
Or by simple observation...
No, you have to reason to make a connection that is not there.
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/25/2008 6:24:31 PM
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notmycity
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
There is no direct connection between verse 9 and verse 10, except by reasoning.
Please remember that it’s a narrative and that the verse divisions were later added.
So what did the angel show John after v. 9, or was the angel simply lying?
< Message edited by notmycity -- 6/25/2008 6:30:35 PM >
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/25/2008 7:33:12 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1743
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Please remember that it’s a narrative and that the verse divisions were later added.
Yes, but the Greek wasn't added later, and it indicates a division between verses 9 and 10. Verse 9 begins with a "kai" and ends in a period, making the whole verse one sentence. Verse 10 also begins with a "kai," and starts a sentence that lasts until verse 14.
quote:
So what did the angel show John after v. 9, or was the angel simply lying?
Perhaps the angel was showing John the new home of the bride. He's setting the stage to introduce to bride by first introducing the home Christ has built for us. Back in Jesus' time, it was the expected norm for the bridegroom to go to their home and build an addition onto his family home where he and his bride would live - this is what Jesus is referencing when He says He is going to prepare a place for us. So here, the angel is first showing John the "room" that Christ has built onto His Father's "house" to house His bride.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/26/2008 9:17:46 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
There is no direct connection between verse 9 and verse 10, except by reasoning.
Please remember that it’s a narrative and that the verse divisions were later added.
Exactly, there could have been weeks or months of events between those verses, a new CHAPTER could have been inserted there. Nothing connects them except human reasoning.
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
So what did the angel show John after v. 9, or was the angel simply lying?
I'm not going to fall into the trap of adding to scripture! If the angel said it was going to do something, it did. There apparently was no need to write anything further.
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/26/2008 9:33:47 AM
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Odeliya
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"Lurker's corner" daily newsletter:
Jimbo - rules!
mrfribbie is excellent, too.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/26/2008 10:24:52 AM
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notmycity
Posts: 1175
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Back in Jesus' time, it was the expected norm for the bridegroom to go to their home and build an addition onto his family home where he and his bride would live - this is what Jesus is referencing when He says He is going to prepare a place for us. So here, the angel is first showing John the "room" that Christ has built onto His Father's "house" to house His bride.
Now we have extra-Biblical teaching based upon the traditions of men.
Please show where Jesus or His apostles ever taught what you stated in the above quote.
John 14:1-5
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
The extra-Biblical teaching that you allude to above apparently had eluded Thomas as evidenced in v 5.
This happened to me not too long ago....
My friend came in the house and said, “Come on outside a minute so I can show you my new car.” And he took me outside and showed me his Honda Civic.
How is the car story any different than the account of “the bride, the Lamb’s wife”?
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/26/2008 11:17:21 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Back in Jesus' time, it was the expected norm for the bridegroom to go to their home and build an addition onto his family home where he and his bride would live - this is what Jesus is referencing when He says He is going to prepare a place for us. So here, the angel is first showing John the "room" that Christ has built onto His Father's "house" to house His bride.
Now we have extra-Biblical teaching based upon the traditions of men.
Please show where Jesus or His apostles ever taught what you stated in the above quote.
With all due respect, understanding culture is a great asset in understanding the Bible. Without understanding culture, I wouldn't know that when John wrote about the Feast of the Dedication, he was referring to Hanukkah, a nonbiblical observance.
God is the source of all knowledge, including general knowledge available to all mankind - He sends rain on the just and unjust. If you want to limit yourself to just what's found in the Bible, you need to throw out all the electric & electronic gadgets in your home and join the Amish.
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RE: The Church is not the bride of Christ... - 6/26/2008 11:41:49 AM
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notmycity
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
If you want to limit yourself to just what's found in the Bible, you need to throw out all the electric & electronic gadgets in your home and join the Amish.
I just happen to believe the following:
2 Tim 3:16-4:4
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God....That the man of God may be [complete], throughly furnished”
As for the “gadgets” comment, I must admit I don’t know what you’re trying to say.
I’d like to talk about 2 Corinthians 11:2 as a “foundational verse” for bridal theology in the next few posts....
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: The Church is not the bride of Christ... - 6/26/2008 2:46:38 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
If you want to limit yourself to just what's found in the Bible, you need to throw out all the electric & electronic gadgets in your home and join the Amish.
I just happen to believe the following:
2 Tim 3:16-4:4
You're preaching to the choir sir. I believe all of the Bible is true. I just don't think all truth is in the Bible -and neither do you unless you can find instructions on math, trigonometry, or algebra etc. in the 66 books of the Bible.
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
As for the “gadgets” comment, I must admit I don’t know what you’re trying to say.
Same as above. If you are unwilling to accept any facts beyond what's in the Bible, then you should reject the facts that ungodly men like Bill Gates used to create PCs. Don't forget TV & radio, neither are in the Bible.
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RE: The Church is not the bride of Christ... - 6/26/2008 2:53:06 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1175
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
If you want to limit yourself to just what's found in the Bible, you need to throw out all the electric & electronic gadgets in your home and join the Amish.
I just happen to believe the following:
2 Tim 3:16-4:4
You're preaching to the choir sir. I believe all of the Bible is true. I just don't think all truth is in the Bible -and neither do you unless you can find instructions on math, trigonometry, or algebra etc. in the 66 books of the Bible.
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
As for the “gadgets” comment, I must admit I don’t know what you’re trying to say.
Same as above. If you are unwilling to accept any facts beyond what's in the Bible, then you should reject the facts that ungodly men like Bill Gates used to create PCs. Don't forget TV & radio, neither are in the Bible.
Last time I checked, the 2 Timothy 3-4 passage has nothing to say about gadgets, math, trigonometry, or algebra, etc.
What do those things have to do with our conversation on a DOCTRINAL issue, or are you attempting to cloud the OP?
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/26/2008 3:04:42 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
What do those things have to do with our conversation on a DOCTRINAL issue, or are you attempting to cloud the OP?
If anyone is trying to cloud the OP, it's you. I was only responding to your comment here:
quote:
Now we have extra-Biblical teaching based upon the traditions of men.
Please show where Jesus or His apostles ever taught what you stated in the above quote.
You are trying make correcting the error in the OP impossible by not allowing any evidence outside of the Bible even though it is true and helps to understand the culture.
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/26/2008 3:40:50 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1175
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
You are trying make correcting the error in the OP impossible by not allowing any evidence outside of the Bible even though it is true and helps to understand the culture.
If God is the author of Scripture, please tell me what culture has to do with sound doctrine?
Also, culture and tradition is constantly changing, whereas God and His completed prophecy remain the same...
Consider The Revelation of Jesus Christ as “the last Word”, for it is in that particular Scripture that we see:
Rev 3:12
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Rev 22:7
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/26/2008 3:50:00 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
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quote:
If God is the author of Scripture, please tell me what culture has to do with sound doctrine?
Have you ever read Proverbs or Jesus' parables. Both take lessons from extra biblical things and cultural practices to get across spiritual ideas.
If you are unable to use extra biblical ideas and concepts in understanding scripture, then you will never be able to explain - or understand - very much about the Bible. It's that a straightjacket theology.
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/26/2008 4:03:58 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1175
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Have you ever read Proverbs or Jesus' parables. Both take lessons from extra biblical things and cultural practices to get across spiritual ideas.
So the new creation/holy city is a “spiritual idea”?
Also, did the apostles use parables?
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/26/2008 4:15:01 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
Also, did the apostles use parables?
Remember Paul at the Areopagus? He appealed to a PAGAN culture and false gods to introduce them to Jesus. Paul many times spoke of cultural things to get across biblical concepts including boxing, wrestling, the military, and on and on. (He also used sarcasm on stubborn folk, but that's another topic).
The Bible is filled with allusions to the secular to get concepts across (the Song of Solomon, for another example).
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 6/26/2008 5:07:26 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 242
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From: Minnesota
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Jesus did not die on the cross and suffer shame for a city and His bride is not made of stone. That is idolotrous and contrary to the earliest OT truth.
A huge misconception people have is that Jesus died for His Bride. This is found nowhere in Scripture. So Jimbo, can you prove that Jesus died for His bride? Of course you have to use Scripture only. If you can't find that in Scripture, will you discard that notion?
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 6/26/2008 5:14:53 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 242
Joined: 6/23/2005
From: Minnesota
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
I doubt you are going to get anyone with anything new to offer, NMC, and I am rather baffled as to why you resurrected this post whn you do not have anything new to add to it yourself.
This is one of the better threads I can remember in the past year. So what if it is resurrected?
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/26/2008 5:23:56 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Jesus did not die on the cross and suffer shame for a city and His bride is not made of stone. That is idolotrous and contrary to the earliest OT truth.
A huge misconception people have is that Jesus died for His Bride. This is found nowhere in Scripture. So Jimbo, can you prove that Jesus died for His bride? Of course you have to use Scripture only. If you can't find that in Scripture, will you discard that notion?
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
-Ephesians 5:25
If the Church is the Bride of Christ, and it is, then He gave Himself for it.
I'm supposing you're going to tell us that His death on the cross was unrelated to His giving Himself. Save your energy, I'm not buying.
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 6/26/2008 5:39:13 PM
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Bluethread
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Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Jesus did not die on the cross and suffer shame for a city and His bride is not made of stone. That is idolotrous and contrary to the earliest OT truth.
A huge misconception people have is that Jesus died for His Bride. This is found nowhere in Scripture. So Jimbo, can you prove that Jesus died for His bride? Of course you have to use Scripture only. If you can't find that in Scripture, will you discard that notion?
We see in the book of Hosea(Salvation), Israel is Adonai's bride. Now if one interprets church as a group and gentile believer's are grafted into(grouped with) Israel, then we are Adonai's bride also.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 6/26/2008 6:19:37 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1175
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
We see in the book of Hosea(Salvation), Israel is Adonai's bride. Now if one interprets church as a group and gentile believer's are grafted into(grouped with) Israel, then we are Adonai's bride also.
Actually, the theme of Hosea follows these verses:
Hosea 4:15-19
15 Though thou, Israel, play the harlot, yet let not Judah offend; and come not ye unto Gilgal, neither go ye up to Bethaven, nor swear, The LORD liveth.
16 For Israel slideth back as a backsliding heifer: now the LORD will feed them as a lamb in a large place.
17 Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.
18 Their drink is sour: they have committed whoredom continually: her rulers with shame do love, Give ye.
19 The wind hath bound her up in her wings, and they shall be ashamed because of their sacrifices.
Consider that there are two cities of Jerusalem:
Gal 4:25-26
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Heb 13:14
14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
(Not one made of stone)
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/26/2008 6:23:47 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 242
Joined: 6/23/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
-Ephesians 5:25
What is "it"? The verse you quoted is clear that Jesus died for the church. You just make the false assumption that Church=Bride.
I'll be back on Monday....have a good weekend!
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/26/2008 7:13:23 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1743
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
Now we have extra-Biblical teaching based upon the traditions of men.
You'd best start learning Greek and Hebrew. English is never once taught in Scripture.
quote:
The verse you quoted is clear that Jesus died for the church. You just make the false assumption that Church=Bride.
Would I be safe in assuming you do not believe that the Church is the body of Christ?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/27/2008 7:37:30 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
-Ephesians 5:25
What is "it"? The verse you quoted is clear that Jesus died for the church. You just make the false assumption that Church=Bride.
I'll be back on Monday....have a good weekend!
I suppose if I were 5 years old that I would miss the whole analogy that passage alludes to, but since I've attained adulthood in age and reasoning (reached long before you were even conceived), it's pretty obvious the whole point of the passage is comparing the husband/wife, bridegroom/bride relationship between Christ and His Bride, the Church.
If you can think of a reason that Paul would just throw in comments about Christ & His Church in the midst of talking about husband/wife, bridegroom/bride relationships besides throwing off 2000 years of believers, I'd like to hear it, for it's entertainment value, if nothing else.
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/30/2008 11:19:57 AM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 242
Joined: 6/23/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I suppose if I were 5 years old that I would miss the whole analogy that passage alludes to, but since I've attained adulthood in age and reasoning (reached long before you were even conceived), it's pretty obvious the whole point of the passage is comparing the husband/wife, bridegroom/bride relationship between Christ and His Bride, the Church.
If you can think of a reason that Paul would just throw in comments about Christ & His Church in the midst of talking about husband/wife, bridegroom/bride relationships besides throwing off 2000 years of believers, I'd like to hear it, for it's entertainment value, if nothing else.
quote:
JimboFletch
You choose to ignore scripture and instruction from elders and those who'd like to see you rejoin 99% of believers.
quote:
JimboFletch
You cannot find a legitimate, serious student of scripture with your view on this. A flake, maybe, but not a legitimate, serious student of scripture.
You have committed the following fallacies:Appeal to Belief, Appeal to Tradition, Appeal to Ridicule, Appeal to Numbers, Appeal to Antiquity, and of course the ad hominem attack. Perhaps you still have some growing up to do! 
Anyway, to comment on Ephesians 5...Paul is writing about the responsibilities for husbands and wives in marriage based on Christ's (Head) example towards the Church (body). Your understanding of the Christ/Church relationship is flawed because you are substituting either husband or bridegroom for Head while substituting wife or bride for body.
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/30/2008 11:23:33 AM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 242
Joined: 6/23/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Would I be safe in assuming you do not believe that the Church is the body of Christ?
I believe that the Church is the Body. Ephesians 5 is usually quoted as "proof" that the Church is the Bride. However, these verses are proof that the Church is the Body.
< Message edited by Beanteaser -- 6/30/2008 12:51:04 PM >
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