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RE: Mormonism? - 8/23/2006 6:19:34 PM
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harvesthoney
Posts: 247
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lexie
I told my two Mormon friends everything I believed about Jesus Christ. Then I asked them to tell me why, according to them, I am wrong.
That's too bad, because they are wrong.
quote:
The big issue I have right now is the issue of race. The Book of Mormon teaches that those who didn't want to believe were cursed with black skin. Those who did believe were made "fair and delightsome."
The skin color was to distinguish between the N and the L in the BOM.
quote:
According to them, my husband and child are cursed. However, from what I have read, if my husband and child convert, they will be given white skin! And my friends can try and tell me its not true, which they did, but its in their book so either their book has lied to them, or they are trying to change their book to fit the times and neither sits well.
Again, they are wrong. There was a time that black men could not hold the priesthood, they were not denied membership. There are many mixed marriages in the LDS church.
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/23/2006 6:25:59 PM
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harvesthoney
Posts: 247
Joined: 9/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Harvesthoney, you can’t possibly claim to be greater than Abraham. Even he could not be justified by his works.
I don't.
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/23/2006 6:31:04 PM
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kmangel
Posts: 467
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quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
quote:
ORIGINAL: kmangel
quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
The contradiction in these statements is obvious. Examine them closely. Either Christ's blood is sufficient, or it needs a little help from you.
I don't see a contradiction. Are we not expected to be obedient to Gods laws and commandments, and follow his example?
Do you think what we do, even in following God laws and commandments, will be done perfectly? God requires perfection.
"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavently Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48
So being saved makes one perfect?
What I'm getting at is the character of God. On one hand He is the Perfect Father and loves us "I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with loving-kindness." Jeremiah 31:3 He wants a relationship with us regardless of our sin. So, no, being saved doesn't make one perfect. God loves us though we sin. God also is the Perfect Judge and as a judge He is absolutely just, righteous and holy. The Bible says of God "Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrong." Habakkuk 1:13
How is God to accept us though we sin? He as the Perfect Father loves us and wants a personal relationship with us but He is the Perfect Judge, too, whose very nature is too pure to tolerate our sin.
Here's an example that perhaps will explain better what I am trying to say. There was a young man who was arrested for a number of offenses, including driving while under the influence of alcohol. He was brought before a judge who was nicknamed the hanging judge because, though his integrity was flawless, he always punished offenders to the fullest extent of the law. The bailiff announced the young man's name and a hush fell over the courtroom as the onlookers realized that this young man was none other than the judge's only son. The young man pleaded guilty as charged because he had been caught red-handed. The judge now faced a real dilemma. If he showed mercy and love towards his son, he would have to compromise his justice. If he threw the book at his son, he would not be demonstrating the love he felt as the boy's father. You can imagine the crowd looking on. What was the judge going to do? He issued a fine of $5,000, the maximum penalty allowable by law for the crimes. Then, without hestitation, he stood up, took off his judicial robes and walked around to where his son stood. He then did something only a loving father would so. He paid the debt his son was incapable of paying. And in that one act, he satisfied the requirements of the law and at the same time demonstrated extraordinary love.
That's a glimpse of what God did for us through Jesus Christ.
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/23/2006 7:06:09 PM
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tony.nz
Posts: 284
Joined: 7/6/2005
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Refering back to that issue, who is Jesus Christ?.
Consider these
John 5:37-38
John 6:45-46
John 1:18
Now think about these
Exodus 3:13-14 (John 8:57-58)
Isaiah 6:5
Genesis :8-9
Exodus 24:10-11
And also these
Isaiah 8:13-14
1 Peter 2:7-8
And also these
Rev 1:8, 17-18
Zech 12:10
Isaiah 45:12-13
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/23/2006 8:19:17 PM
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lexie
Posts: 3047
Joined: 6/27/2005
From: Toronto
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quote:
The skin color was to distinguish between the N and the L in the BOM.
Thats not what the Book of Mormon says.
2 Nephi 5:21
"And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, evan a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they become like unto a fling; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."
That does not sound like distinguishing them from someone else to me. Why not distinguish them with a mark, why an entire skin of blackness? My question as well to this is, since Adam and Eve sinned, was their skin black?
2 Nephi 5:23
"And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed, for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it and it was done."
quote:
There are many mixed marriages in the LDS church.
3 Nephi 2:14-16
"And it came to pass that those Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites; and their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites; And their young men and their daughters became exceedingly fair, and they were numbered among the Nephites and were called Nephites."
So, if it is possible that once you are saved from skin, that your skin would become white just as happened to the Lamanites, than why are the black people in the LDS, still black? Why is their skin not white?
I personally cannot grasp the fact that the same colour skin my child has was used as a curse for people who have sinned.
As well, the teachings of church "fathers" has not looked favourable upon interracial marriage. Brigham Young stated that the penalty for whites to mix with blacks should be death on the spot. Spencer Kimball taught that you should marry within your own race.
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/24/2006 5:31:38 AM
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AussieTBM
Posts: 28
Joined: 6/27/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: landabee
~sigh~
I see that it is time for the mormon defense league to make it's appearance again.
To those who are considering witnessing: Be diligent and vigilant in your prayer life. Feed on the Holy Word of God daily.
Pray for discernment and protection.
Yes, it is that serious.
This false religion is a lie straight from the pit of hell. It is taking some of the kindest, well meaning and faithful (albeit misplaced faith) people straight to their eternal damnation.
There is no use debating with the mormons on this board. They have no desire to accept the truth (as far as has been demonstrated in the myriad threads preceding this one)
Pray for them. Pray for their families. And pray against the insiduous evil masquerading as truth that leads them to call themselves Christians. They (mormons) are reaping the harvest of souls that belong to the true Jesus.
We must pray against, gird against and evangelize against this lie.
Hi landabee,
Nice to see you again too. The "mormon defense league" never sleeps and has spies everywhere. 
You do say some nice things though in bold.
Warm regards,
aussietbm
_____________________________
For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6)
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/24/2006 5:34:30 AM
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AussieTBM
Posts: 28
Joined: 6/27/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Mormon doctrine fails to understand salvation by grace through Christ alone.
Mormon doctrine teaches that the blood of Christ is not sufficient.
Hi crankius:
You are still saying the same things. Good to be back.
Warm regards,
aussietbm
_____________________________
For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6)
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/24/2006 9:29:09 AM
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AussieTBM
Posts: 28
Joined: 6/27/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lexie
quote:
The skin color was to distinguish between the N and the L in the BOM.
Thats not what the Book of Mormon says.
2 Nephi 5:21
"And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, evan a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they become like unto a fling; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."
That does not sound like distinguishing them from someone else to me. Why not distinguish them with a mark, why an entire skin of blackness? My question as well to this is, since Adam and Eve sinned, was their skin black?
2 Nephi 5:23
"And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed, for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it and it was done."
quote:
There are many mixed marriages in the LDS church.
3 Nephi 2:14-16
"And it came to pass that those Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites; and their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites; And their young men and their daughters became exceedingly fair, and they were numbered among the Nephites and were called Nephites."
So, if it is possible that once you are saved from skin, that your skin would become white just as happened to the Lamanites, than why are the black people in the LDS, still black? Why is their skin not white?
I personally cannot grasp the fact that the same colour skin my child has was used as a curse for people who have sinned.
As well, the teachings of church "fathers" has not looked favourable upon interracial marriage. Brigham Young stated that the penalty for whites to mix with blacks should be death on the spot. Spencer Kimball taught that you should marry within your own race.
Hi Lexie:
We haven’t talked before; I’m aussie and a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints "aka Mormon". To give you a frame of reference I dislike using the word Mormon to describe members of the Church. I find it disrespectful to both the Lord and the warrior prophet Mormon who compiled much of the Book. I use the term LDS.
I haven’t posted here for a while however I want you to know that I have a love for most of the Christians who post to this site. Almost no one here deliberately misleads and almost all have a genuine desire to help their brothers & sisters.
BTW that especially applies to Crankius & landabee their posts are always literate and without condemnation of the individual though they may strongly disagree with the data posted.
Discussion involving our eternal existence should always be considered and researched before posting data that could affect the individual, and in 99% of situations these guys do that. 
I noticed that the discussion was revolving around the colour of someone’s skin and I think there is some misunderstandings here that need to be cleared up.
The thing to remember here is the BoM commences in Old Testament times and is, in LDS opinion, a more correct translation than the Old Testament (OT) we have now.
Most of the critical parts of the original early books had to be rewritten around 1100 BC from the oral traditions because they were lost through idolatry.
quote:
14 And when they brought out the money that was brought into the house of the LORD, Hilkiah the priest found a book of the law of the LORD given by Moses.
15 And Hilkiah answered and said to Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD. And Hilkiah delivered the book to Shaphan.
16 And Shaphan carried the book to the king, and brought the king word back again, saying, All that was committed to thy servants, they do it.
17 And they have gathered together the money that was found in the house of the LORD, and have delivered it into the hand of the overseers, and to the hand of the workmen.
18 Then Shaphan the scribe told the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath given me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king.
19 And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the law, that he rent his clothes.
(Old Testament | 2 Chronicles 34:14 - 19)
So the LDS Church is attacked mostly because we have such complete records, not only of OT times, but also the early days of the restored Church. Every error of the, very human, early leaders of the LDS Church are fully recorded and can easily be accessed by anybody. We don’t try to hide anything. I find it interesting that records of other denominations, from the 1800s are not so easy to find.
I wonder if we were able to access the records of every statement made by Baptist Preachers & Leaders in the 1830s what we would find.
Funnily enough I do have a few documented examples, however, I would not post them out of respect for Christians on this site. I do wish that a more Christian attitude could be taken by some here to offer the same courtesy. Not very likely I guess.
OK, it’s getting late and I am getting tired. If you (and the Moderator) will permit I will post more info a little later, however I leave this thought. We love you anyway.
Yes, the Lord caused a mark to be put on those who had some opposition to his people, but consider what he did to those who openly fought against his will. Consider the fate of the Amalekites.
quote:
1 SAMUEL also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD.
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
(Old Testament | 1 Samuel 15:1 - 3)
This “mark” is not only found in the BoM for example:
quote:
15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
(Old Testament | Genesis 4:15)
It should be noted that the mark was to protect Cain; it was not a mark of retribution.
BTY we are also confusing two different situations, which I would love to discuss further if you permit.
I would also add that the largest growth in the LDS Church is currently being experienced in Africa. The members there are quite incredible. I strongly recommend this site as a valuable source of unbiased information on the subject under discussion.
<link edited TOS 16>
Sincerely,
aussietbm
< Message edited by Kath -- 8/24/2006 11:26:54 AM >
_____________________________
For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6)
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/24/2006 11:22:06 AM
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crankius
Posts: 4468
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
I wonder if we were able to access the records of every statement made by Baptist Preachers & Leaders in the 1830s what we would find.
Aussie,
No problem with Baptists who are crazy. There are numerous Christians who are crazy and say stupid things. I’m sometimes crazy and say stupid things.
But if any Baptist preacher claimed that all other churches are not part of God’s Kingdom and that God had established his church as the one and only true church, he would be a certifiable nut, and not part of Biblical Christianity.
The Mormon prophets have said many false things, which makes them false prophets.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/24/2006 11:32:01 AM
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lexie
Posts: 3047
Joined: 6/27/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline
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Hi Aussie, nice to meet you.
quote:
This “mark” is not only found in the BoM
True, the mark is found in the Old Testament, however, it is a mark, not a skin of blackness.
quote:
It should be noted that the mark was to protect Cain; it was not a mark of retribution.
Indeed, however as I posted earlier, the Lord God cursed the Lamanites with a skin of blackness so that they would not be enticing to others. When they had white skin, they were fair and delightsome. You can correct me if I'm wrong, maybe there is some "hidden meaning" behind it, but thats what the scripture in 2 Nephi says. So, when I, as someone who does not believe the Book of Mormon reads it, I am reading that my skin is delightsome and my husbands skin is not. My husband is beyond belief that other blacks could read such a piece of scripture and be okay with it. I would like to hear how it has been explained to them.
quote:
I would also add that the largest growth in the LDS Church is currently being experienced in Africa
I am glad that you added this at the end. When I question LDS members about race this is usually the first statement. That and Gladys Knight. Interesting, while reading the BlackLDS website, I read through all the testimonies. Don't doubt that these people have a zeal for God however I found that the website did very little to dismiss that "issues" that have come about with race.
quote:
I wonder if we were able to access the records of every statement made by Baptist Preachers & Leaders in the 1830s what we would find.
I don't doubt we would find some "interesting" stuff. Which is why I personally feel, and I'm sure many others do, that is why we as Christians don't elevate mere man to prophet. All denominations have their issues, no doubt. But when I read that Brigham Young, a so-called prophet of the faith, stated that I should be shot for marrying my husband, I must admit, it doesn't make the faith look enticing to me. Whether he said it in 1800, 2006 or 33 AD. My husband and I married through the love of Jesus Christ, a love that sees no boundaries and no colour. Jesus would have never condemned our act of love. Which is why I belong to a church established by Jesus Christ, in the name of Jesus Christ, with the foundation of Jesus Christ, and not one established by men.
BTW...I will be asking my friends all of my questions when I meet with them next week. In the meantime, please feel free to answer me, maybe respond to the scriptures from 2 Nephi that I posted.
BTW...I also mentioned in another post that I am not looking to convert or attack anyone with different views as mine. I am just asking of my LDS friends to look at scripture in the same way they ask me to look at theirs. I am challenging them on what I have read in their scripture. I'm not looking for them to change their mind and I'm not looking for them to change my mind. I'm just struggling to understand their beliefs, where they come from, and the impact of it on the world around them, the same I do for myself with the Bible.
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/24/2006 5:16:04 PM
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harvesthoney
Posts: 247
Joined: 9/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lexie
quote:
The skin color was to distinguish between the N and the L in the BOM.
Thats not what the Book of Mormon says.
2 Nephi 5:21
"And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, evan a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they become like unto a fling; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."
That does not sound like distinguishing them from someone else to me. Why not distinguish them with a mark, why an entire skin of blackness? My question as well to this is, since Adam and Eve sinned, was their skin black?
2 Nephi 5:23
"And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed, for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it and it was done."
quote:
There are many mixed marriages in the LDS church.
3 Nephi 2:14-16
"And it came to pass that those Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites; and their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites; And their young men and their daughters became exceedingly fair, and they were numbered among the Nephites and were called Nephites."
So, if it is possible that once you are saved from skin, that your skin would become white just as happened to the Lamanites, than why are the black people in the LDS, still black? Why is their skin not white?
I personally cannot grasp the fact that the same colour skin my child has was used as a curse for people who have sinned.
As well, the teachings of church "fathers" has not looked favourable upon interracial marriage. Brigham Young stated that the penalty for whites to mix with blacks should be death on the spot. Spencer Kimball taught that you should marry within your own race.
Check out 2 Nephi 30:6
Why God chose this way to distinguish the differences between the two groups was His doing.
Why are black LDS still black? I guess genetics.
As far as interacial marriages......We follow the living prophet (G.B. Hinckley) not the dead ones. Apparently he says it's ok now.
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/24/2006 5:20:35 PM
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kmangel
Posts: 467
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
As far as interacial marriages......We follow the living prophet (G.B. Hinckley) not the dead ones. Apparently he says it's ok now.
This is why we should listen to what God says in the Bible, not what somebody "says is okay now." If we listen to what man says we likely will hear anything our itching ears want to hear. Otherwise, we just go around and around and never hear or speak about what God actually says in His Word.
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/24/2006 5:55:44 PM
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harvesthoney
Posts: 247
Joined: 9/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kmangel
quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
As far as interacial marriages......We follow the living prophet (G.B. Hinckley) not the dead ones. Apparently he says it's ok now.
This is why we should listen to what God says in the Bible, not what somebody "says is okay now." If we listen to what man says we likely will hear anything our itching ears want to hear. Otherwise, we just go around and around and never hear or speak about what God actually says in His Word.
If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, it makes sense to me that He would have a living prophet on earth today. God doesn't change but humans do. Hence, the need for a living prohet on the earth today.
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/24/2006 6:42:38 PM
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tony.nz
Posts: 284
Joined: 7/6/2005
Status: offline
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I think it is difficult for LDS to understand the concept of the Universal Church of God. Denominationalism is a human administrative structure. Largely, it does not matter which denomination you associate with, and I have associated with several. Denominations do tend to cluster around a group of non-essential doctrines. Having said that, the Methodist congregation I am part of currently, would be considered unusual by many Methodists around the world, being rather informal and accepting of charismatic gifts.
So, how do you define a christian? One possible definition is all those who identify themselves as such. Personally, I do not have a problem with that definition. However you define it though, it is only a label used to identify a group of people. And, Jesus made it clear, that at the judgement, there would be many who consider themselves christians, who would not make the grade. So, the key thing is not whether you label yourself as a christian, or whether other people recognise you as one, or whether you are on a church membership list, but whether you are part of Church of Jesus Christ, those whose names are recorded in heaven. God alone is the keeper of that list.
Jesus Christ is the only mediator between man and God. No prophet, arch-bishop, church official, self-styled apostle, or Pope, stands between me and God. Those who worship Him, worship in spirit and in truth. There is no temple, no place on earth, no group that you "must" associate with, in order to worship Him. Listen to the words of Jesus to Nicodemus, (a man who was desperately trying to reconcile the opinions of his "exclusive group" with what his eyes were seeing)
"Do not marvel that I said to you "You must be born again" The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit" John ch3
In John 3:14, an analogy is drawn between Christ being lifted up, to the story of Numbers 21:5-9, where the Israelite people who looked at the serpent lifted up by Moses were healed. Just the same, those who look to Christ, who was "lifted up" on the cross for the sins of the world, will live spiritually and eternally. (vs 15-16). So, you can call yourself what you like, even wear stripped pyjamas and call yourself a banana if you like, it is your personal response to Jesus Christ that matters. His is the only name (identity) through whom we can be saved.
HH - the problem with your idea of a "living prophet" being required, is who was the "living prophet" between 350BC (the end of the time of the prophets in Israel), and the birth of Christ, and who was the living prophet from the ascension of Christ until Joseph Smith?
All those poor people without a living prophet, not knowing which way to turn! And, if you designate someone a "living prophet" today, how can he contradict the so-called living prophets who preceeded him? How can any of them contradict previous recognised prophets such as Jesus Christ? If we do not really know what Jesus truly said, how do we know if what they say confirms it or contradicts it? On the other hand, what does Matt 24:23-26 say?
I must say, if I accepted your argument about the need for a prophet, I think I would have to be a Catholic, because at least the Pope claims an unbroken line from the church apostles.
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/24/2006 7:07:38 PM
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lexie
Posts: 3047
Joined: 6/27/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline
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quote:
Check out 2 Nephi 30:6
When I read this, I thought it was referring to the part of the Bible where those of us who were Gentiles were living in darkness but through Jesus Christ we are able to live in light. Was I supposed to check this out because of that, or because it has something to do with the issue of race?
quote:
Why God chose this way to distinguish the differences between the two groups was His doing.
Yes, but it seems that God only chose to do this within your scripture. In the Bible, God does not do such a thing. And while I can't claim to have great knowledge of the OT, from what I do know, when God chose to bring vengence upon people who disobeyed, He used ways other than turning their skin black. It's not like there weren't black people on the earth until God decided to turn the Lamanites black.
quote:
As far as interacial marriages......We follow the living prophet (G.B. Hinckley) not the dead ones. Apparently he says it's ok now.
So if the next "living prophet" says that interracial marriage is not ok, then will the church ban it? Because for as many people as there are that feel that it is "ok", many people feel it is not "ok." Will the church flip flop on issues based on who the "living prophet" is?
This reminds me of those who like to pick and choose from the Bible and say "well that was for that time." In a sense it seems to me that the LDS are picking and choosing from their line of prophets what they think works for today and would in a sense get more members. Because while I'm sure that most members today don't agree with Brigham Young saying that whites should be put to death for mixing with blacks, there is a lot of other stuff he said that they still agree with. When I think of a prophet, I think of this scripture.
Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brothers, one like you, and will put My words in His mouth. And He shall speak to them all that I shall command Him.
Deu 18:19 And it shall happen, whatever man will not listen to My Words which He shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.
Deu 18:20 But the prophet who shall presume to speak a word in My name which I have not commanded him to speak or who shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deu 18:21 And if you say in your heart, How shall we know the word which Jehovah has not spoken?
Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah, if the thing does not follow nor come to pass, that is the thing which Jehovah has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You shall not be afraid of him.
Why would God have one prophet say one thing, and another prophet say something else?
Good to know it is "ok" now. Although, the apparently part of that sentence throws me off a bit, as though maybe some in the LDS don't agree with it.
quote:
If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, it makes sense to me that He would have a living prophet on earth today. God doesn't change but humans do. Hence, the need for a living prohet on the earth today.
Humans change because of sin. God gave us the free will to do what we want, and that is why we live the way we do today. God says that fornication is wrong. Yet we live in a time of extreme sexual immorality. If the living prophet said that fornication is "ok", will the church accept that practice, because he is the living prophet?
Remember...
Joh 1:17 For the Law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/24/2006 7:52:35 PM
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kmangel
Posts: 467
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, it makes sense to me that He would have a living prophet on earth today. God doesn't change but humans do. Hence, the need for a living prohet on the earth today.
The Bible can be trusted. It is God's love letter to us showing us His plan for salvation. It's not everything we can know but everything we need to know. God knew before He ever created our world that Jesus would come into our time and space, living the perfect life we could not live in our place. That's what I was getting at earlier when I was asking you how someone imperfect can go to heaven. They can't. God says he can't tolerate evil. God knew Jesus would suffer and die to pay for our sins--the debt we could not pay. God took our sins and placed them on Jesus who suffered and died to pay a price we could not pay. Jesus suffered the wrath of God on our behalf. "God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." (2 Corinthians 5:21) And God in exchange for our sin, gave us the perfect life of Jesus Christ. Our sin for His perfection. We ourselves can't earn or deseve it, but we can accept the gift, and we can live a life of gratitude for this gift which He so freely offers us. All this talk about races, and prophets changing like the wind what they "hear" God speaking, and all the other things that get us away from what's really important only prevent us from discovering what we really need. We have the Good News. There need not be any surprises in store for us or any new revelations. It's all in the Bible, one hundred percent.
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/24/2006 9:37:05 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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Mormons worship a Jesus who they claim was a polygamist and the spirit-brother of Satan. They believe in a Jesus who was not always god and whose blood does not cover all sins. The Jesus of the Mormon Church is not the Jesus of the Bible. Actually Mormons would be better off not invoking the name of God, given to do so in such a false manner is to brazenly ask for God's wrath...
John
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/25/2006 5:30:25 AM
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SmileyTish
Posts: 178
Joined: 6/23/2005
From: From the Edge of Beyond
Status: offline
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HH...I think I have posted to you before...but, point blank, until you can show me more than a vague reference IN THE BIBLE in a CURRENT translation (NIV, KJV) one that has not be corrupted by the Mormon or LDS that the religion of Joseph Smith is valid, then we really have no meeting ground.
Unless you have BIBLICAL proof then, I have nothing to talk to you about. Mainly because I do not see that using BOM as an adequate defense because I see BOM as a pure work of fiction.
I see you discussing BOM and what it says with regularity in here, but you cannot defend it when it comes up against the Word of God. Point blank, the BOM may say a lot of nice things, but where it disagrees with the Bible, then it is wrong...where it adds to the Bible...it is wrong. Because point blank, the Bible is our sole source for truth. Yes I listen to pastors and I read other books, but I am always comparing what they say to the Bible and if they are wrong...then I call them on it and disregard the information...if they continue to teach against the Bible then I don't have anything to do with them.
Point blank, we are not going to agree because our view of Truth as revealed Through the Cannonical Bible...is not the same.
_____________________________
I'm going crazy -- wanna come along?
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/25/2006 12:26:59 PM
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lexie
Posts: 3047
Joined: 6/27/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline
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Here is what I find interesting about the BoM. When you skim through it, like I did the first time, you think "wow, it is so much like the Bible." Essentially, much of it is a cut and paste of the Bible. But when you read through the whole thing, you see that there is a lot in there that is not Biblically sound. What I find more interesting is that Joseph Smith was a Christian man and in the 1800's would have had access to a Bible and the teachings of God. So who is to say that he didn't just make it up? Of course it can sound like the Bible when I'm sure he owned one of his own.
My other question to any LDS here is why is it when LDS are witnessing they only take with them the BoM. Is there a reason why no one has shown or told me about the Doctrines and Covenants or the Pearl of Great Price?
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/25/2006 1:18:14 PM
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kmangel
Posts: 467
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, it makes sense to me that He would have a living prophet on earth today. God doesn't change but humans do. Hence, the need for a living prohet on the earth today.
Regarding prophets today:
Luke 16:16: “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
Hebrews 1:1-2: “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.…”
Since “prophets” existed “until” John the Baptist, why would I need a living “prophet” when the Bible says that I can go directly to Jesus for daily revelation through prayer and the study of His Word?
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/25/2006 5:29:28 PM
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tony.nz
Posts: 284
Joined: 7/6/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lexie
Here is what I find interesting about the BoM. When you skim through it, like I did the first time, you think "wow, it is so much like the Bible." Essentially, much of it is a cut and paste of the Bible. But when you read through the whole thing, you see that there is a lot in there that is not Biblically sound. What I find more interesting is that Joseph Smith was a Christian man and in the 1800's would have had access to a Bible and the teachings of God. So who is to say that he didn't just make it up? Of course it can sound like the Bible when I'm sure he owned one of his own.
My other question to any LDS here is why is it when LDS are witnessing they only take with them the BoM. Is there a reason why no one has shown or told me about the Doctrines and Covenants or the Pearl of Great Price?
That actually raises a very good point. Don't you think it is strange that the BOM 'cuts and pastes" directly from the KJV, including translation errors.? This is something that was supposedly translated directly from a much more ancient record.
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/26/2006 4:14:07 AM
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AussieTBM
Posts: 28
Joined: 6/27/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius: I’m sometimes crazy and say stupid things.
Crankius, I was going to write that I completely agree with that, however I then realised it applies to me too.
Warm regards
aussietbm
_____________________________
For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6)
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/26/2006 10:48:26 AM
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AussieTBM
Posts: 28
Joined: 6/27/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lexie
Hi Aussie, nice to meet you.
Hi Lexie:
Sorry to take so long in continuing our discussion and I also note the thread has taken other turns, however I will quickly finish my first post. My work schedule of late has been a little demanding.
The colour of skin you initially referred was in relation to the Lamanites and is not related to African Americans. It was a mark placed on the Lamanites (North & South American Indians) to distinguish them from the Nephites. Today there are millio | | |
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