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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/29/2007 6:12:36 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1263
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
After reading Adam's latest response to those who have presented page after page of information that should, at the very least, cause him to pause and question his leader's teaching, he continues to blindly defend him at every turn. My heart grows heavy as I see before me living proof of just how deceived one can become under the spell of a false teacher. This is devastating because I recognize that this teacher has been successful in his endoctrination of his follower(s) and to continue to present information to open his eyes is likely futile.
The ONLY thing that has been shown here is page after page of gossip, falsified innuendos, accusations that have not been proven, showing a huge disregard for the fruit that is coming out of IHOP and Mike Bickle's life, which we aren't suppose to do. Heretic-hunters will never be happy until their is a 'burning on the stake' of someone. So I would highly question and call into doubt your idea about who are the deceived ones. I'm sure the Catholic church during the inquisition believed that they were righteous in calling out all the 'heretics' of their time also.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat
This is devastating because I recognize that this teacher has been successful in his endoctrination of his follower(s) and to continue to present information to open his eyes is likely futile.
LOL, I'm sorry but this was too funny to resist, Kat. Mike Bickle? A meek, loving guy who is deeply devoted to learning how to walk like Jesus? He is now an "evil, scheming cult leader who has endoctrinated his followers?" As if none of us have brains any longer and can study scripture for ourselves? I guess we've all just checked our brains at the door, right? And this is why? I know! Because we disagree with Soxfan and Kat and lwr and some of the others on this forum. Reading Adam's posts shows me clearly who has spent time with Jesus. It's so evident in the wisdom that this young 19 year old kid has. HE has definately spent much time in Jesus' presence.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 11/29/2007 6:24:22 PM >
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http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/29/2007 8:50:38 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1102
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: online
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SD456 your continued statements that heavily imply that those who do not agree with you A) dont know what they are talking about, and/or B) dont know Christ Jesus that well; is getting really tiresome.
You claim that we, who have serious questions about IHOP or other groups (such as WOF, Emergent Churches, ect), can not possibly know what we are talking about and pass us off as "heresy-hunters" and ignorant fools. You claim that we do not show love, yet in doing this, you are showing that you fail in that regard as well.
Here are some facts that I will chose to go into more detail to you about, and why I have great concerns with IHOP (and other groups). For 2 years I attended an AG church. This church was the prototypical charismatic AG church. During the two years I attended we had the Ambassador to the Brownsville Revival, Evangelist John Davis visit nearly twice a month. The church called it the "River Revival". People at the church (including myself on some of these) spoke in tongues, preformed healings of the body and spirit, prophesied, were slain in the spirit, experienced holy "uncontrollable" laughter, and other "gifts" of the spirit. For just less than a year I served as the AV guy for the Youth services on Wednesday nights. On at least one occasion (that I actually remember) we had Pastor John Kilpatrick from the Brownsville Revival visit our church for one of our "revival" weekends. When the youth pastor left, Evangelist John Davis' son was appointed to become youth pastor. About 2-3 months after that, when our pastor passed away the new youth pastor was appointed as Senior Pastor.
When I attended I always was one of the more reserved people there. I looked around and saw the way people were doing things (speaking in tongues, prophesying, ect) and I so wanted to join them. I thought I was speaking in tongues several times. I should note that my mother has attended a charismatic non-de church for the past 7 or so years where they believe that tongues is a required sign of salvation; as well as the fact that my uncle and his family are members of a large AG church in the Twin Cities of Mn. Anyway, during the last 6 months of attending this AG church I became more and more uncomfortable with what was going on around me. While I did not recognize it at the time, on multiple times I heard prosperity doctrine spoken about (ie "Dont say you are sick, claim you are healthy!"). During several alter calls when the "man of God" was going about slaying people he would actually try to PUSH me down. Not stand near me and me fall on my own, no tried to push me down by the head. I heard several prophesies (one in which was about a attack more powerful than 9/11) which according to dates set IN the prophecy they failed to come to pass. All these things and more began to weigh on my mind. Since I attended this church with some of my friends from college, I started to talk about this and express my concerns. When I started doing this, they stopped wanting to hang round me, they started to reject me and refused to invite me to social gatherings. And when I decided to stop attending the church for a while, NO ONE tried to find out why. They just let me go and from there on out, the people from my college who I use to be friends with, no longer wanted to hang out with me. The ONLY two who did not do this were my ex-girlfriend and her boyfriend. Which did not help since because of my past with her, I dont hang out with JUST them.
All I had were questions and concerns with what I saw and I just wanted to talk about them and find out more. But instead of giving me answers and helping me out, I was rejected by the church because I did not fall lockstep into their beliefs.
But I am not upset. If this church did not reject me, i would not have began asking questions at my school about theology and about issues I used to automaticly believe in (speaking in tongues, women pastors, free will vs election, ect.) with out question. Thanks to that churches rejection I began to READ Romans and see that free will just does not make sense. I began to READ Acts and 1st Corinthians to learn that the practice of babbling in charismatic churches is NOT the biblical gift of tongues. I began to READ the writings of Paul and learn that a woman still can serve the church in many wonderful ways yet not be allowed to teach as a leader of the church (aka Pastor/Elder). Thanks to what this church did I came to KNOW Christ Jesus in a much more fulfilling way.
Now if this was not enough, I point to the intuition and gut feeling that I have in these matters. From other experiences that I have had, as well as the ones my mother has had I know it to be a gift from God. I know that my feelings of concern for the practice of charismatic churches (including IHOP), are not some wild conspiracy theories, but internal warnings of God. Further more I do not just believe something because some "obscure website" tells me to. For that matter I dont believe something because it is what the church I attend teaches. I research things, I read the bible, I look to see what good Godly preachers (like John Piper, John MacArthur, Allistar Begg, R.C. Sproul, Albert Mohler, ect) say. I do not agree with everything they preach, but I respect what they say about given issues. I read commentaries and use a combination of my Greek NT and a lexicon to see what the original texts say. Sometimes my fears are proven wrong. But most times they are shown to be valid.
For me that is why I look at and into IHOP. I have a old high school friend who (last I heard) attends IHOP-KC. Before that, she attended a affiliated church in STL. I have in the past talked with her (and her husband) in person about IHOP. I listened as they described what goes on and what they believe they are called to do. I was there when my friend described her desire to see young children (i am talking about 3-7 range) teach, prophesy, heal, ect. And from this point when I first heard about IHOP, not from some website but from someone who actually attends, I was concerned. From listening to Adam, some of my fears have been set aside, but some of them do linger. But it is NOT because I lack love, dont know Christ, or dont know or have experience in what I am talking about. I think I have proven quite well that I do have experience. Truly it is because of that experience that some of my concerns come from.
So I would greatly appreciate it if you cease to make accusations against those of us who do not agree with you. Just because we do disagree, does not in any way give you the right to say what you have said. After all if you are upset that some on this board are attacking Mike Bickle, are you not doing the same thing when you attack others?
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/29/2007 9:31:16 PM
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sue244
Posts: 437
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
ORIGINAL: Adam
Correction.... That article says that Hagin declared prophetically..... not that the man was a prophet. I find it interesting that you didn't really argue with anything inside of the column, but rather felt more inclined to attack Kenneth Hagin (who gets a passing mention at best) and Dutch Sheets (who collaborated with Mike Bickle, Lou Engle, and Francis Frangipane). To me, this is not seeing the forrest because of the trees. To be sure, picking apart minutia rather than actually attacking the structure. In an actual debate, that would be called "surrender of the point".
OOoh! 1 point for Adam! Or maybe that's at least 5 points since he has thus far wisely, and with correct information, debated each of the grievances that said 'heretic-hunters' have brought up.
quote:
God is Love... 1st John 4 tells us that (twice)... But God only tells one thing other than Himself that He loves it..... and that is the human race. Imagine it... the infinite God of the universe, the head honcho, the guy holding all the chips, has set His infinite love and desire on ONE thing.... mankind. Out of all the stars, the angels, the planets, the demons, Satan, whatever aliens there might or might not be, God has chose humanity as the greatest outside source of His pleasure and object of his affection. This does not contradict the Bible in any way. Once again, we miss the point because we didn't read it.
I'm not sure if they get that 'love' concept on these forums. I think, Adam, they have a very hard time wrapping their minds around it. Works, religion, the law, obedience, sinners, God's wrath - they get these things real good, but I'm not too sure about the 'love' thing.
Well if you mean love as how the world deffinition of never hurting any ones feelings, and not saying anyone is wrong then yeah we are lacking love. But if you mean the Biblical deffintion of love then no we aren't. If people truly believe that someone is decieved and going to hell because of it, should they sit their and say nothing? Is that loving when they truly believe it? Or is it loving to try in every way possible to point out that persons errors so that they may go to heaven? Now I don't know about you but in my opinion Love, biblical love always looks out for the person eternal life not their feelings here on earth.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/30/2007 12:17:30 AM
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lw9
Posts: 1131
Joined: 7/22/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
FurGodWurLivin: Correction.... That article says that Hagin declared prophetically..... not that the man was a prophet. I find it interesting that you didn't really argue with anything inside of the column, but rather felt more inclined to attack Kenneth Hagin...
U n b e l i e v a b l e.
You completely ignore the fact that Kenneth Hagin denies the Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible and split hairs over terminology. Bottom line: Whether he was playing prophetic, Prophet, or teacher, Kenneth Hagin was FALSE. Anyone affirming Hagin is in serious, serious error themselves, and that would now include Mike Bickle.
quote:
Once again, you are missing the point. The point is not the greatness of man, but rather is the identity of the Believer that is found in Christ alone. No man is greater than Jesus, or even comes close, but God has crowned us with glory and honor (Hebrews 2). This article is not the glorification of man, but rather is the recognition of what God has actually done.
The words speak plainly enough and Bickle made his points, including the point that Jesus came to establish our greatness at the cross in the atonement. His words, not mine. Not sure why you feel the need to revamp his thoughts for him.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 11/30/2007 12:35:43 AM >
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Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/30/2007 12:21:24 AM
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lw9
Posts: 1131
Joined: 7/22/2005
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Stephanos:
Your testimony is wonderful to read. Thanks so much for taking the time to post that. Sometimes it does take getting booted out of something we're entrenched in to see the light and grow, and I'm thankful to God that you did!
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Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/30/2007 2:25:35 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 956
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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quote:
Thank you for your responses. As I was pointing out, this is debatable. And it still doesn't cover everything. As you seem to believe intercessory prayer and fasting is merely a Biblical expression...follow the flow of occurrences here. As yet, no one has proven me wrong that it is a biblical expression to PRAY AND FAST. Until someone can give me valid Biblical proof that praying and fasting are wrong (because that is 90% of what happens at IHOP-KC), I will stick to my guns that it is Biblical.quote:
Discredited KC Prophets prophesy IHOP...their associate Mr. Bickle follows through...young Christians participate and enjoy what they're doing--which is by no means proof that it is ordained by God...and what's next? By allowing themselves to believe that God is doing the first thing and the next thing they're all getting on the same page for whatever is being taught--and "prophesied" to come next. (A) please prove to me that God is NOT raising up Houses of Prayer to fast and pray, and (B) please prove that all of the "young christians" are being duped into outright error. As I have said, IHOP-KC is not the first (Count Von Zinzendorf begand the Moravian Missions Movement with 100 year prayer center much like what we are going, Prayer Mountain in South Korea has had night and day prayer for 20+ years) and we are not the last (IHOP-Atlanta, Zadok House of Prayer, Prayer Furnace Chicago all came after IHOP started). So, either you can claim that IHOP was started by piggybacking onto what God was already doing (which means the prophets did not prophesy), or you can claim that IHOP was started by a prophecy to, in your words, "discredited prophets" (which means they "accidentally prophesied truth). Need I remind anyone that God prophesied through King Saul at least twice that we know of, when Saul was actively trying to kill David and Samuel? The point that you have to come to eventually is that either (A) everyone involved in the "House of Prayer" grouping (From IHOP-KC to IHOP-Atlanta to Prayer Mountain) are all decieved and in danger of hellfire (an assertion that NO ONE is qualified to make), or (B) everyone involved in the "House of Prayer" grouping is "in on the gag" and is trying to decieve the church at large, or (C) we actually might know what we are doing is Godly, and someone else is missing it. There really are no other options that logically make sense when you begin questioning IHOP-KC, because it is part of a larger movement.quote:
What is the grip that the Third Wave/New Apostolic and related teachings has on people that the slightest hint of disagreement incites them to fury so often? I think it is because it's a house built on the sand of dubious sources. Feel free to make that judgement should you wish... many people within the "dubious Third Wave" crew think much of the church is built on stiff, stingy head knowledge and has a form of godliness but denys the power of the same. I'm not one of them, but hey... fair is fair, right?quote:
The above-mentioned discredited KC Prophets. When these "prophets" have appeared on the cover a Christian magazine as such, and put themselves forth as being those who hear from God and as such should be listened to, how can anyone object to their failures being brought up? Because I have my doubts about Ernie Gruen's motives in writing his expose on said prophets. I will not list them because it is simply a different topic. Also to be considered is that most of those christian magazines sendout requests for interviews.... its not like Bob Jones and Paul Cain called up Lee Grady and said "Hey, I want a cover spread with a photo shoot of someone who got healed!". Maybe the problem isn't so much the men who prophesied as it is the people who believed in them. Beyond that, I find it quite interesting that we have this belief that if someone is a prophet (A) they never make a mistake (even though Samuel did when he went to see Jesse's sons) and (B) they are never capable of falling into error (even though Jonah did). I must admit, I am deeply saddened to see that we are so quick to condemn a man (Mike) because of his former associates (Jones and Cain). I can understand why it is done, but it still saddens me. What happens if Carlton Pearson suddenly turned around and repented of Universalism..... would we sit here and pass judgment on whether or not he was "genuine"?quote:
Probably because of the reasons that, to quote an IHOP staffer, that "Mike and several others have distanced themselves from the KCP".
You can't have it both ways. I am not trying to have it both ways. I said Mike has distanced himself from the KCP, and I don't understand why people insist on the man making a 100% clean break (whatever that actually means) from it. Paul never hid the fact that he killed Christians prior to becoming one, so why should Mike have to hide that he knows Paul Cain and Bob Jones? Considering that asking Mike to completely forget his own history is like asking a radically saved druggie to forget their testimony, I think it is highly tasteless to demand somthing of that nature. I remember back to when we were arguing about some WoF pastor and someone said "They should have to give back all the millions they have stolen from honest Christians!" That is highly foolish thinking. First off, how? Second of all, no one is forcing anyone to buy their materials. The same applies to Mike, IHOP, and the KCP. No one was forced, coerced or duped into the KCP movement, Mike is no hypnotist to get people to pray for 20 hours a week, and IHOP just is.... they aren't trying to lure people in to their "cult" and they aren't kidnapping people to make them pray. Myself, I walked into the IHOP lifestyle with both eyes wide open, and I'm not surprised that many people can't believe that.quote:
There's the quote from page one of this thread. Fulfilling the KCP prophecies, yet distancing, yet not making a clean break, but no one should associate IHOP with KCP. Seems mighty sandy to me. Once again, I said that we have distanced ourselves from the movement. It's not like Mike is following prophecy as a script. For example, it has been prophecied to the IHOP family that when we get 500 full time staff member God would add 5000 seemingly overnight. We aren't trying to get people to sign up to be intercessors because we want to hit 500 staff members, but we are wondering how God is going to do it and excited to watch it happen. So, the only sand comes between the time I finish typing my response and the time you finish yours.quote:
After reading Adam's latest response to those who have presented page after page of information that should, at the very least, cause him to pause and question his leader's teaching, he continues to blindly defend him at every turn Actually, I continue to defend Mike not because I feel the man needs to be defended. Rather, because I feel a need to defend IHOP against needless accusation. Not to mention, those "pages and pages" of information are all things that I have heard before and found less than true.quote:
My heart grows heavy as I see before me living proof of just how deceived one can become under the spell of a false teacher. This is devastating because I recognize that this teacher has been successful in his endoctrination of his follower(s) and to continue to present information to open his eyes is likely futile. Flattery will get you nowhere, my friend......... **said he rather flatly**. I appreciate the concern that you believe me to be a blind, decieved fool.... but remember what Jesus told the pharisees? "You claim you see and yet inwardly you are poor, blind, and naked. If you were blind, your sins would be forgiven you." Guess what, I need Jesus....... as does everyone in this room. The real problem is that a house divided against itself cannot stand, so unless the church begins pulling together, we may be in for a rather hard fall. Until you can prove to me Biblically that I am decieved (Biblically, being the key phrase... all I have seen so far is people point back to the 1980's and saying that IHOP must be wrong because Mike used to hand out with Bob Jones and Paul Cain), I will politely ask you to try slapping the other side next time.quote:
Adam, I pray "The Lord will bless you and keep you; The Lord make His face shine upon you, And be gracious to you; 26 The Lord lift up His countenance upon you, And give you peace."...and lead you to the Truth. I take your words for what they say, and not the spirit in which they are offered.... thank you. May the Lord lead you into His everlasting heart of Love. Other than that, don't let the door hit you on the way out, I guess..........quote:
I'm not sure if they get that 'love' concept on these forums. I think, Adam, they have a very hard time wrapping their minds around it. Works, religion, the law, obedience, sinners, God's wrath - they get these things real good, but I'm not too sure about the 'love' thing. eh..... I'm not going to discuss that much...... I'll leave the slander to the more experienced in it.quote:
You completely ignore the fact that Kenneth Hagin denies the Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible and split hairs over terminology. I split hairs over terminology because you were claiming Mike said that Hagin was a prophet and he never did. That is not a fault on my part, that is actually a fault on yours. Also to be noted in the article..... Mike never says that he endorses Hagin's theology, or that Hagin is correct on everything he teaches... he simply stated fact that Hagin declared something prophetically. What does "prophetically" mean? It means proclaiming something that you believe is the word of God about the world... now or in the future. So really, in essence, you are throwing a fit that he got mentioned in an article on the Elijah List....... Big deal. I didn't agree with everything Dr. James Kennedy had to say either, but oh well, I disagreed with the man. (A) please notice that I have not declared anyone a heretic (B) please note that I am not impressed by someone declaring another person a heretic.. and (C) note that it practically destroys your credibility with your opponents to declare them heretics.quote:
denies the Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible Meaning what, exactly? If you are talking about the philosophical view that Jesus died and went to hell to take the keys of death and hades, that doesn't count as "denying the Jesus of the Bible". Claiming Jesus is a Mexican dude who has been married more than once and is behind on child support...... that is denying the Jesus of the Bible... and last I knew Hagin never did that. If you are wanting to tie in the WoF doctrines, good luck..... IHOP doesn't hold to WoF, never has, never will, contradict it on the website, and Mike contrdicts it from the platform.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/30/2007 10:57:54 AM
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SD456
Posts: 1263
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
your continued statements that heavily imply that those who do not agree with you A) dont know what they are talking about, and/or B) dont know Christ Jesus that well; is getting really tiresome.
I've not said one time that you don't know Jesus, I have said that you don't know His heart because I've yet to see any proof that He appointed you folks as His "defenders of the faith", or that He even needs to be defended. I've stated that we will know folks by their fruit and I have found more fruit in Mike Bickle's writing than I have read in your writings on these posts.
quote:
You claim that we, who have serious questions about IHOP or other groups (such as WOF, Emergent Churches, ect), can not possibly know what we are talking about and pass us off as "heresy-hunters" and ignorant fools. You claim that we do not show love, yet in doing this, you are showing that you fail in that regard as well.
I would question which is more loving - defending someone who is being condemned when they are not here to defend themselves, or believing in the second heresay that you read on the net. Or even holding people to some company they kept for a while 10-20 years ago? I think love is easily recognized.
quote:
During several alter calls when the "man of God" was going about slaying people he would actually try to PUSH me down. Not stand near me and me fall on my own, no tried to push me down by the head. I heard several prophesies (one in which was about a attack more powerful than 9/11) which according to dates set IN the prophecy they failed to come to pass. All these things and more began to weigh on my mind. Since I attended this church with some of my friends from college, I started to talk about this and express my concerns. When I started doing this, they stopped wanting to hang round me, they started to reject me and refused to invite me to social gatherings. And when I decided to stop attending the church for a while, NO ONE tried to find out why. They just let me go and from there on out, the people from my college who I use to be friends with, no longer wanted to hang out with me. The ONLY two who did not do this were my ex-girlfriend and her boyfriend. Which did not help since because of my past with her, I dont hang out with JUST them.
I'm terribly saddened by your experience. I have experienced some of those things myself, but then I have been at other renewal type churches that are not at like that, that actually rebuke people who try to 'push' people down (yes, I have had an over zealous prayer person try that a time or two on me). I don't believe that all of this, or any of this, is 'heretical', but I can see how a bad experience can make you not wish to be part of anything that remotely looks like it.
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Thanks to that churches rejection I began to READ Romans and see that free will just does not make sense.
This is a very good example of how reasonable people can have different opinions and not be heretics. I read Romans and see how Free Will is a given and a necessity, you read Romans and believe that Free Will doesn't make sense. We come to complete different conclusions reading the same scriptures. 
quote:
I know that my feelings of concern for the practice of charismatic churches (including IHOP), are not some wild conspiracy theories, but internal warnings of God.
Many other christians have 'gut' feelings against parts of the conservative evangelical church. Should we assume that they are ALL correct in their 'gut'? or could it be possible that 'gut' feelings sometimes happen because our comfort zone is being challenged. That's up for debate I think.
quote:
For that matter I dont believe something because it is what the church I attend teaches. I research things, I read the bible,
As do I and those that I fellowship with who love Mike Bickle and IHOP. You see? You can be grounded in scripture and still come up with different conclusions. I'm glad you like John Piper, but I've never agreed scripturally with Calvinists. I'm of the John Wesley persuasion of things and always will be. But because you enjoy reading John Piper, whom I disagree with on many key points, and I enjoy reading Mike Bickle, whom you disagree with, doesn't make either you or I a heretic. That word needs to be reserved for those who are teaching something that contradicts the essentials of doctrine, which Mike doesn't do.
quote:
I was there when my friend described her desire to see young children (i am talking about 3-7 range) teach, prophesy, heal, ect.
I believe that God will be and has used children for His gifts. Rolland Baker, a missionary in Mozambique, has a book that his parents wrote when they were missionaries in China, describing the move of God that fell on all the orphans they were caring for. These children prophecied, were taken to heaven, saw angels and Jesus regularly. The same thing is being experienced by Heidi and Rolland Baker in Mozambique today. The orphans (about 2000 now I believe) under their care pray for hours, see angels, see Jesus, heal the sick, prophecy accurately, are doing all the 'stuff' that older christians in the West aren't even doing. God can move through anyone He chooses who has the faith. They have gone into hospital clinics and prayed over the sick and the entire hospital was healed and emptied out of sick people. If adults won't have the faith to do Jesus' work, then God will use children, who do have faith to do it. It's happening all over the world today and there are many places you can read about it. Get Heidi Baker's book "there is always enough" and you will read their testimony of what is happening among the poorest people in the world. It's eye opening.
I for one would want my children to be raised in a place where they are taught that they can hear Jesus speak to them, can heal and can prophecy just like the bible says. I've always taught my children that in my home, why wouldn't I want to be part of a place that teaches my children to be faith-filled believers? It's an awesome thing to see.
quote:
So I would greatly appreciate it if you cease to make accusations against those of us who do not agree with you. Just because we do disagree, does not in any way give you the right to say what you have said. After all if you are upset that some on this board are attacking Mike Bickle, are you not doing the same thing when you attack others?
I simply gave a couple examples of how the people in the Inquisition treated christians they disagreed with, and if some on this board have recognized themselves in those examples, that is not my fault. I've denigraded no one on this thread, nor have I accused anyone of being a 'heretic'. I have made simple statements of truth - much of what is being said IS from websites written by people who have grudges of one type or another against the world of Charismata in general, much of what is said IS by people who are 'listening' to second heresay and have never read Mike Bickle's books or spoken personally to him. If you see this is an accusation, then I can't help that.
Again what is love? Defending dear brethren that are being condemned without allowing them to speak a defense for themselves or calling people heretics and doing all you can to destroy their reputation and bring division to the Body of Christ. I would have to again question your idea of 'love'. We have very different ideas of what 'love' actually means.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 11/30/2007 11:34:18 AM >
_____________________________
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http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/30/2007 1:57:37 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1131
Joined: 7/22/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
FurGodWurLivin: Mike never says that he endorses Hagin's theology, or that Hagin is correct on everything he teaches... he simply stated fact that Hagin declared something prophetically.
Can you put aside the word games for just a minute? Endorsing someone 'prophetically' is endorsing them as a man of God. Clearly.
quote:
Meaning what, exactly? If you are talking about the philosophical view that Jesus died and went to hell to take the keys of death and hades, that doesn't count as "denying the Jesus of the Bible".
Hagin's claims:
quote:
“The death of Jesus Christ was not a physical death alone. If it had been a physical death, Abel would have paid the price for mankind. He was the first man that died because of honoring God and His Word. If it had been a physical death only, it wouldn't have worked! And if He hadn't died spiritually, that body never would have died.” (Kenneth Hagin, What Happened From the Cross to the Throne, Tape #00-0303)
“He (Jesus) tasted spiritual death for every man. And his spirit and inner man went to hell in my place. Can’t you see that? PHYSICAL DEATH WOULDN’T REMOVE YOUR SINS. He tasted death for every man. He’s talking about spiritual death.” (Kenneth Hagin, How Jesus obtained his name tape # 44HO1 side 1)
The Jesus of the Bible did not die spiritually on the cross. He was without sin, and He died physically only. [1 Pet 1:18-19, 1 Jn 3:5, Heb 4:15, Heb 10:19, Col 1:19-22, 1 Pet 3:18]
The Jesus of the Bible did not descend into hell [Gehenna], the place of eternal torment reserved for the wicked. He desecended to the OT faithful in Paradise [Hades] to bring them into heaven with Him. [1Pet 3:18-20, Eph 4:8-10, Lk 23:39-43]
The Jesus of the Bible did not atone for sin in hell. He atoned for sin on the cross. [1 Pet 2:24, Col 1:19-22, Col 2:15]
Any other 'Jesus', such as the one taught by Hagin, is a false christ.
Back to Bickle. I've not seen any evidence that he ever repented of his KC Prophets days. It seems that he simply left and reworked himself and his image into a new 'ministry'. All I'm seeing is Bickle speaking out of both sides of his mouth, denying there's any relationship with Latter Rain yet STILL continuing on with Latter Rain associations, language, and obsession with signs and wonders that take precedence over scripture. More on that in a minute...
< Message edited by lw9 -- 11/30/2007 3:29:06 PM >
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/30/2007 3:13:20 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1131
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IHOP's Conference Notes: Women in the Prophetic Guidelines for Prophecy - Chara Boasso:
quote:
I. DEFINING THE PROPHETIC MINISTRY
A. Prophecy is the testimony of Jesus (the thoughts on his heart) being communicated to us by the Holy Spirit.
B. Prophecy takes place when God communicates thoughts to our mind (revelation) and we share those thoughts with others.
C. Most prophecy contains a mixture of our words with God’s words. The revelation that God gives us is always 100% true, however, it is filtered through human communication and perspective; so that by the time it is given through us it contains a percentage of our words as well as God’s. We can learn how to share prophetic words more clearly as we mature in our gifting. A mature word will have a higher percentage of God’s words; a weak word will have a higher percentage of our words.
This is an outright lie on so many levels.
1. The truth has already been revealed in full and scripture is therefore closed. Anyone claiming additional divine revelation knowledge - which would have to be considered scripture - is false.
2. Claiming that most prophecy contains a mixture of man's words and God's words is not Biblical. It's man’s way of justifying and excusing away his errors. It also conveniently sets the followers of IHOP up to accept the lies of their ‘prophets’.
A Biblical prophet either was or was not hearing directly from God. There was no gray area, there was no ‘mixture’, and was NO room for error. Through IHOP’s leading, adults and children will be putting themselves under Biblical judgment for a prophet the moment they utter the words 'God told me...' or 'God showed me...'. In the Old Testament the penalty for false prophecy was DEATH - that's how serious an issue it was and still is since Christ warns against false prophets.
quote:
A. In the New Testament, we learn to prophesy by faith. Our words have mixture, but we can grow and mature in our prophetic gift. Old Testament prophets prophesied by direct revelation.
"…If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith." (Romans 12:6)
B. In the Old Testament, prophets had to be 100% accurate, or be stoned to death. In the New Testament, since prophecy works by the Holy Spirit within us communicating to us and then filtering through our mode of communication, we are not demanded to have 100% accuracy. Instead, we are taught to judge prophetic words.
More lies.
1. Where does the Bible ever state these ‘new rules’ for prophecy that IHOP has concocted?? Where does the Bible ever state that prophecy has changed between the Old and New Testament, so expect errors? NOWHERE. The 'We prophecy in part' defense [which of course pops up in the article] is a gross misinterpretation and perversion of scripture. It's the false prophet's way of getting the people to accept and expect errors.
2. One cannot ‘grow’ and ‘mature’ into prophecy. Prophecy has nothing to do with the person. Prophets do not speak through themselves on their own qualifications, through personal experience or personal opinion, through a learning process, or through a ‘stage’ of where they’re at . They speak what God has told them. End of story.
quote:
I. LEVELS OF PROPHESYING
A. Simple Prophecy: Any believer can do this type of prophecy. Not all believers who prophesy are prophets (I Cor. 12:29), but all can prophesy. Simple prophecy usually takes place one on one, in small group settings, or given individually during ministry times and not in a public setting.
B. Prophetic Gifting/Ministry: One who has a prophetic gifting/ministry that is recognized for ministering in the church regularly. The person will have dreams and visions regularly, and will often have encounters (angelic visitations, etc.), will often prophetically get detailed information (names, dates, places, etc.), and sometimes be used in other areas of gifting as well, such as healing and deliverance. The person regularly receives unusual amounts of revelation but is still being trained in their gifting.
C. Office of Prophet: Only believers who function as Old Testament prophets are those who have the office of a prophet. They have a regular flow of revelation, including open visions, predicting natural events, and sometimes having words confirmed with supernatural signs. A prophet must have a proven ministry (not only in level of gifting, but in fruit, character, and wisdom), which could take years, and must have a consistent track record of great accuracy before they should be recognized by the church as a prophet. A prophet also must be under the authority of the church.
To recap IHOP’s premise: So after many years of making errors in what they claim is God's word and finally ‘growing’ into a reasonable track record, they are now qualified to become an OT-type ‘Prophet’ capable of bringing new divine revelation... because that's what OT prophets DID. As an OT-type prophet, their 'words from God' would have to be considered absolute and scriptural - mistakes and all. God help them.
Reality check: Anyone in the OT attempting to ‘grow’ prophetically and making mistakes along the way would never have made it to 'prophet' because they would have been STONED TO DEATH first, but that logic seems to escape IHOP. Biblical discernment and common sense cannot exist here because it would get in the way of the signs and wonders they are so eagerly chasing after.
As to the other levels of prophesying described by IHOP, the Bible doesn't make any mention of these levels or the alleged accompanying 'signs', such as regular angelic visitations, etc.
quote:
VII. DELIVERING A PROPHETIC WORD
A. Positive, friendly prophecy is a vital component to edification. It’s not just our words, but our compassion and gentleness that are effective in prophetic ministry. We want those ministered to to feel drawn to the Lord by how we share. Prophetic words should be released in a way that is not forceful or that does not ‘bind’ the person receiving the word. This is because we prophesy in part, so we share our words submissively rather than forcefully. Because we can ‘miss it’, it is also wise to not use the words “thus saith the Lord”. It’s much easier, safer and wiser to say you ‘sense’ or ‘feel’ something from the Lord.
They want to appear to be prophets without accepting any consequences for failed prophecies. Nice.
If God truly said something to someone, there should be no beating around the bush and hiding behind 'I feel' or 'I sense'. They either heard from God... or they did not. If there are 'misses', then they never heard from God, period. Speculating, feeling, sensing, and guessing does not qualify as prophecy, and I can get the same vague 'I feel' and 'I sense' messages from a PSYCHIC.
quote:
E. We also have guidelines concerning things to avoid while doing prophetic ministry. This includes prophesying about negative things (sin, the past, correcting, rebuking). Again, the prophetic is for “strengthening, encouragement, and comfort”. This the measuring line for how to share prophetic words.
F. Another thing to avoid is predicting specific detailed information or giving specific direction (dates, time frames, marriages, children, death, life, moving, jobs, etc., or basically, telling people what to do.) The reason why, as we said before, is because of the mixture of accuracy in our prophetic words. You should never act on a prophetic word; a word should only confirm what the Lord has already spoken to your own heart.
Why can’t they repeat everything God allegedly told them? All throughout the Bible, God gave very specific messages to His prophets and apostles, including places, times, sins, and grievances. Apparently IHOP’s prophesiers only receive the 'Ambiguously Positive Prophecies' Channel. Details are not their friends because you can’t hide once the prophecy has been proven wrong. Things to consider:
1. IF IHOP’s prophets believe they heard something negative from God, they are told to avoid stating it because it's not 'positive'. By doing this they are BLOCKING what God has allegedly said, and they are therefore false prophets who bring only lies of ‘good news’ rather than God's word in full. [Isa 30:9-10, Jer 23:16-17]
2. IF IHOP's prophets believe they heard details from God [and they've already admitted their prophets do receive details] they are told to avoid stating it because whatever they heard cannot really be trusted, which again means they are BLOCKING what God has allegedly said and not giving His word in full. They are therefore false prophets. [Jer 23:21, Jer 23:26]
3. IF IHOP's prophets cannot trust what they are hearing because they know their own words are mixed in yet they are still claiming their messages are from God, then they are false prophets who speak presumptiously. [Deut 18:20-21, Jer 23:22]
While I don’t believe they're hearing from God in the first place, they've shot themselves down with their own rules. No matter how you dice it up, the Bible condemns both their prophecies and prophets as false. Why would anyone trust someone who claims to be speaking from God but really isn’t sure because of the dreaded ‘mixture’ and therefore cannot speak exactly what they say they heard? For anyone buying into this stuff, it’s long past time to wake up.
I haven't checked out the other conference notes yet, but all of this was from just one article. For those who can see the truth of the situation, I hope you will warn everyone you can - especially parents with children - away from this group. Because IHOP is so ready and willing to go beyond scripture in order to uphold experiences, there will be no way to stop the increasing errors coming through their false prophets. It will all end in tears someday.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 12/1/2007 1:13:53 PM >
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Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/30/2007 7:34:10 PM
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stateofgrace
Posts: 2009
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
For 2 years I attended an AG church. This church was the prototypical charismatic AG church.
Stephanos, I have to say, the things that you described...they are not necessarily "prototypical" of AG churches. There are plenty of AG churches that did NOT jump on the Brownsville bandwagon, who continued to check their experiences agianst the written Word. Our church did not jump on the Brownsville bandwagon, and it is a thriving AG church that has spun off several daughter churches over the years.
< Message edited by stateofgrace -- 11/30/2007 8:00:10 PM >
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/30/2007 10:14:50 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1263
Joined: 8/6/2007
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Acts 5:34-39 But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. Then he addressed them: "Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God."
This is the last statement I will make on this thread. I know that you somehow believe that you are doing right and good by 'exposing' evil men. But I don't believe that any of us have the knowledge or wisdom necessary to know who are the tares among the wheat. In trying to expose the tares and pull them out, we can do much harm and great mistake by actually calling a stalk of wheat a tare. Jesus commanded that we leave the tares and wheat to grow together and that His angels would do the rightful dividing of them, He also said that we will know His followers by their fruit. If what Mike Bickle and IHOP are doing are from God, then nothing can stop them and you are fighting against God. I wouldn't want to be the person who ends up doing that. And you will be held accountable for the wrong judgements you have laid against them. If they are not from God, then what they are doing at IHOP will fail, God will not be glorified in their 24/7 worship of Him and prayers to Him, and it will become evident.
I also want to deeply apologize for the sassy and even sarcastic way I spoke to some of you. I was frustrated and grieved by the way these ministries are spoken about and reacted in an unChristlike way. You are not my enemies, neither is IHOP or Mike Bickle. We are all fellow soldiers on this journey to heaven.
God Bless,
Stace
< Message edited by SD456 -- 11/30/2007 10:51:57 PM >
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/30/2007 10:55:04 PM
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sue244
Posts: 437
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The problem with the logic I see here is the defintion of success of failure. Just because a ministry grows doesn't prove that it is successful or of God, or else the Mormons are a great church of God. Second we are comanded in Jude to contend for the Faith Frankly the whole book of Jude is about how we must be willing to contend for the faith, because men creep in and pervert the gospel. So if we are told to contend for the faith and point out fals teachers then God has given us the wisdom to do so. Its all in His word. Now I have seen a lot of scripture posting on one side of this discussion, and a lot of name calling and thats not what they said and quoting of other people on the other side. So until someone can refute the scritpure posted that is the side I will fall on. I'm not going to argue against what God has said, becase that would end being futile.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/1/2007 1:00:44 AM
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SD456
Posts: 1263
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
Second we are comanded in Jude to contend for the Faith Frankly the whole book of Jude is about how we must be willing to contend for the faith, because men creep in and pervert the gospel. So if we are told to contend for the faith and point out fals teachers then God has given us the wisdom to do so. Its all in His word. Now I have seen a lot of scripture posting on one side of this discussion, and a lot of name calling and thats not what they said and quoting of other people on the other side. So until someone can refute the scritpure posted that is the side I will fall on. I'm not going to argue against what God has said, becase that would end being futile.
I know I said it would be my last statement, but this shall be my last. I wanted to make one more comment on Sue's comment about contending for the faith. We see in Jude that he brings up false teachers that have come into the church, and by his description, their falseness wasn't just in their doctrine but also in their morality. I think it only fair that if you are going to use Jude as the basis of defending the faith from false leaders, then we should look at the type of false leader Jude is speaking about.
Jude 1:4
"For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord."
Looking at this verse and comparing it with Mike Bickle and the people at IHOP - Is Mike a godless man? No. He loves Jesus very much and is contanstly turning people toward Him, so I don't believe He could be considered godless. Has Mike preached a 'grace' that allows for believers to practice immorality? No. He has high standards of purity and holiness for his own life and implores those under him to do the same. Does Mike deny Jesus Christ as our only sovereign and Lord? No. Jesus is his Lord and Savior and he believes that Jesus is sovereign in all things.
Jude 1:8
In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings.
Has Mike polluted his own body with immoral deeds? No. Again he strives for purity in his own life. Does he reject authority? No. He very much believes that all believers need to be under authority and accountable to leadership. He himself is accountable to various elders and other pastors of other ministries. Does he slander celestial beings? No. He has never, that I have heard or read, spoken disrespectfully or arrogantly about either angels or demons (and with demons, meaning he does not flippantly speak about them but understands that satan is a roaring lion trying to find whom to devour).
Jude 1:10
Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals--these are the very things that destroy them.
Does Mike Bickle, or has he ever that I have heard or read, speak abusively about things that he doesn't understand? No. But I have heard others in the Body of Christ speak this way. Are there things he, simply by instinct, contends that he understands? No. Not that I have ever heard. He has always used scripture to explain how he understands things.
Jude 1:12
These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm--shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted--twice dead.
Is Mike and those at IHOP shepherds who only feed themselves? No. He loves God's people very, very much and wishes to only bless them and help them to grow up into maturity into Christ. He wants to feed them meat and not just milk. Is his life like a tree without fruit and uprooted? I don't believe so. There is much fruit being produced in the lives of young people who are learning to pray enduringly and learning to fast and seek God. There is also much fruit from the worship times that are recorded and used all over the world by people in their quiet devotional times.
Jude 1:16
These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.
Is Mike a grumbler or has he shown a propensity to be a grumbler against God? Not that I have ever heard. He speaks much about thanksgiving and seems to always be thanking Jesus for something. Does Mike follow his own evil desires? From his own words he wishes to be pure and holy before God and he tries the best he can, but sometimes fails, to always obey Jesus in everything. I don't believe he follows his own evil desires any more than the rest of us do. Does Mike Bickle spend time boasting or flattering people to get what he wants? A definate no. He is very humble and definately doesn't believe in flattery.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sue
The problem with the logic I see here is the defintion of success or failure. Just because a ministry grows doesn't prove that it is successful or of God, or else the Mormons are a great church of God.
I agree with you and I wasn't using that scripture to say this 'proves' that IHOP is from God. But even the Pharisees understood that we don't always know what God is up to and it's wiser to let the tares grow among the wheat and let God work it all out, then it is for us to believe that we have the wisdom needed to point out all the tares.
But you can use Jude's test of a false teacher on the Mormon church and they are not able to pass the first sentence of his description. Are the Mormon leaders godless? Yes, their lives are God-less because they are not vitally connected to the Father through the Son, so all that they teach is God-less. Do they deny Jesus Christ? Yes. They deny the nature of Christ, that He is fully God and equal in Sovereignty as God. So they are what Jude would call 'false teachers'. I agree with you, Sue, that it's important to look at Jude's qualifications of false teachers.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 12/1/2007 12:22:48 PM >
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/1/2007 11:26:18 AM
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lw9
Posts: 1131
Joined: 7/22/2005
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SD456:
You've defended tooth and nail things completely contradictory to the Bible in this forum, including Latter Rain movements, 'barking like a dog' and 'holy laughter' manifestations, unBiblical 'gifts', and false prophets. And now you're defending a ministry that literally 'grows' false prophets without even Biblically addressing the specific valid concerns that have been raised. The result is that I can't take what you say seriously.
It's a bit ironic that you consistently blast people for DOING WHAT IS RIGHT - being Bereans, testing all things sticking with scripture, and warning others away from real danger - while you continue to defend what is wrong and promote dangerous things. There's something seriously wrong with this picture.
Christians are not immune to being sucked into deceptions and wandering off the path. If they were immune, Christ and the apostles would not have spent so much time WARNING us about it. That's the part you never seem to get. Whether Bickle is Christian or not isn't the issue here, and I'm not even arguing that point. If he has faith in Christ, then his words and actions will pass the Biblical test. BUT Bickle, like the rest of us, is not immune to wandering off into unBiblical territory and dragging others with him. I'm not attacking him personally, but I am examining his history, his associations, his statements, what his ministry is doing, and most importantly, where it's leading the thousands of people who flock to his ministry. All of these things put together is clear evidence of where IHOP came from and what it is right now, and I've seen enough to disturb me very deeply, especially since IHOP is going after children and young adults. The only reason for me to be here and warn others about this is because I seriously care about them.
You are free to go your own way into whatever experiences and beliefs you like, but you don't have the right to criticize and belittle others for doing what the Bible tells them to do. It's really easy to talk about love, but if your words don't display a true love for God's word or a true concern for His people, then it's just empty talk.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 12/1/2007 12:17:06 PM >
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/1/2007 1:09:01 PM
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floydette
Posts: 1080
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
You are free to go your own way into whatever experiences and beliefs you like, but you don't have the right to criticize and belittle others for doing what the Bible tells them to do. It's really easy to talk about love, but if your words don't display a true love for God's word or a true concern for His people, then it's just empty talk.
We need to all be mindful that just because someone's interpretation doesn't line up with yours, it does not mean that the one you so valiantly defend is correct (nor the other person's, btw). There is something called Hermeneutical Humility. We would all be better off if we ALL practice it.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/1/2007 1:35:50 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1131
Joined: 7/22/2005
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floydette:
quote:
We need to all be mindful that just because someone's interpretation doesn't line up with yours, it does not mean that the one you so valiantly defend is correct (nor the other person's, btw). There is something called Hermeneutical Humility. We would all be better off if we ALL practice it.
Through personal interpretation, are you saying you can Biblically support and defend the 'barking like a dog' manifestation, or Biblically support and defend prophets making mistakes when the Bible clearly states a prophet will have NO ERRORS? Let me know how that research goes for you. Seriously, I would like to see what you come up with because those are the kinds of serious issues I'm talking about.
What if someone comes to the conclusion through their own interpretation of the Bible that Jesus isn't God or that Jesus didn't atone for sin on the cross. Should we accept that, too?
Truth isn't relative.
The Bible isn't a free for all of interpretation, and this isn't a matter of 'my interpretation is better than yours'. This is a matter of not only what the Bible actually SAYS, but what it says IN CONTEXT.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 12/1/2007 1:44:29 PM >
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/1/2007 2:03:05 PM
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