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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/30/2008 9:28:49 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sue
So what about Buddist Monistaries? They have been around for a lot longer then IHOP so does that mean they are from God as well?
You know trying to prove something using either length of time or number of people is not a strong argument since there a lot of movements that are not of God that have been around longer and have a lot of people involved.
Actually, you're incorrect with that point. When you and others bring up cults to compare to God's moves, you are missing one very, very important fact: We have a very powerful, violent enemy who is constantly coming against us. Those other belief systems do not.
Satan is so powerful and so violently opposed to Jesus that he will go to any length to destroy everything that belongs to Him or is centered around Him. There is no possible way that the movement of spreading the gospel these past 2000 years could have survived if not for God upholding it and giving His power and grace to His followers, not to mention continually intervening with rescues, miracles, etc. Satan is far more powerful than us in our flesh, and without God anything that has to do with Jesus would be annihilated off the map. But God doesn't allow this to happen.
Whereas Buddhists, Scientologists, Mormons have satan on their side. He's quite pleased with their deception and will do all he can to aid them in it. So while their growth happens and continues because they don't have an enemy attacking them, the movements of God grow and continue, not only because of God blessing them and ordaining them, but because we have a God powerful enough to overcome the enemies attacks against them.
Anything centered around Jesus, like a 24/7 prayer house that spends night and day worshipping Jesus, would NEVER be able to continue if not for the grace, power and protection that God extends to them. And this prayer movement would NEVER have been able to spread to 65 nations in over 3000 24/7 prayer houses like it is now without the power of God and God's will upholding them - simply because man can NEVER stand up against so great an enemy as satan and his hordes of hell in our own power.
Now if you want to embrace that place of lies, innuendos and false accusations to say that IHOP does not center their prayers and worship around Jesus when they gather together, then I would have to say that's crossing the line pretty scarily (not that I believe you are).
Man could NEVER have created the Great Awakenings, the Hebrides revival, the Azusa street movement, etc etc., without God's blessing and help.
Man could NEVER start a global prayer movement, centering around Jesus like this one is, without God being behind it. And satan will do all he can to destroy it, ruin its reputation, get the church divided over it, crush it, cause the people who are part of it to give up with despair, and even get other christians deceived in regards to it so that they actually HELP satan to stop it. I for one don't wish to be the one who ends up fighting against God. That is TRULY the scary place to be in.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 1/30/2008 9:38:17 PM >
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 2/1/2008 11:47:58 AM
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wintery
Posts: 1866
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Apparently not. So far we have been to this particular spot in our argument at least three times that I can think of. Which means we are either doing figure eights, or just plain circles.
That much is certain.
quote:
Thank you, I think I shall. According to the statement you made that I objected to, you were speaking about people who are "devoid of sound doctrine". Now, either you believe the people at IHOP-KC are devoid of sound doctrine, or you believe that I am. Otherwise, you have absolutely no reason to have said what you did because of its irrelevancy. That is why I asked you to withdraw your accusation.
Everything you disagree with is an accusation. I no longer think you're trying to obfuscate, I know you believe it. The entire discussion is a matter of sound doctrine, from both viewpoints, or what's the point? I disagree with Mike Bickle. Considering his reported affection for mystics of the dark ages, it is interesting that you chose to ask me to "recant".
quote:
Problem, the old "medicine shows" involved intentional and systematic lying to the victims. For example, putting bootlegged Gin in a clear bottle and calling it the "elixer of Life: the cure all for all ills". That is a hefty claim to level against an organization and a man you do not personally know. That is why I refuse to call WoF preachers or Charismania preachers "liers and charlatans."
While intended as a mere example of manipulation including volunteers, perhaps it is indeed an analogy we've stumbled into.
Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
How do we pull the sheepskin off the wolf? A person teaching you what they believe (say it's biology teacher going over evolution) does not believe themselves to be "lying" or doing any harm, while a Christian (and I know there are various views, I'm not going there) may see things another way. It's a jump on your part to take my offering of the medicine show - an example of manipulation - and claim that I'm already laying that on Bickle. I'm not quite there yet—wait until I say it. You may refuse to call people liars and charlatans, but what does your discernment tell you is actually going on with some of these people? There's an old saying--"It doesn't pass the smell test." There's another good one--Robert DeNiro in Ronin--"When there's doubt, there is no doubt."
quote:
Had you been following Mike's full end-time series, you would see exactly how he got there from an exposition on Revelation 17 and 18. It is as simple as that. The idea is that the Antichrist is going to be raising up a movement of people worshipping himself (as 2 Thessalonians 2 would suggest), while God is raising up the church into maturity and spreading the worship and knowledge of God to the nations. So you have two worship movements being raised up at the same time as the exact antithesis of each other... sounds a lot like Jesus parable of the Wheat and the Tares, doesn't it?
I don't agree that it can be considered an exposition on Revelation 17 and 18--extrapolation perhaps but that is a stretch. Those chapters are about Babylon and its fall. I looked up Bickle’s teaching on this. I believe you named the wrong chapters. The conjecture makes more sense from 2 Thessalonians 2. However there's not anything substantial there about a prayer and worship movement and counter-movement, so I have to leave it in the fiction realm.
quote:
Once again, to prove this, you need to make a hefty character judgement against the heart of the person prophesying. What did Joel say in Joel 2? "Call the elders... who knows if the Lord will relent and leave a blessing behind?" Joel was quite obviously the real-deal prophet, and yet even his prophesied judgement hinged on whether or not the people would repent.
"Heart" is a fuzzy buzz word and it always means "innocence". "Playing the 'G' card" doesn't cut it. (That means "God card" for those who didn't get it.) Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? This all leads back to testing the prophet—which no defender of IHOP is willing to do.
quote:
Once again, all of the arguments you just posted are either (A) taking us back to the same place we were on page four of this discussion or (B) reliant on character judgements against the cast of characters involved in this play we call "life". So really, I shouldn't dignify this with a response... But the fact is that I hate going around in circles more than about twice.
Nice try. Bickle has not abandoned the prophecies of Bob Jones. Where's the break with the past you spoke of in the IHOP poll thread? It's not there. But to part A, I went back to the first couple of pages of the IHOP poll and I would say nothing has changed between us since then.
Considering the amount of hysteria in the “defenses” of IHOP—i.e., the true leaven, workers of Satan, and God’s gonna getcha for that –posts, well, there’s been a lot of slinging of the word “fruits” around, and why don’t we look at this aspect. What causes this type of reaction to a discussion? Is that the only way to respond? I’ve been looking around IHOP forums and see the same thing I’ve heard personally, and that is, a built-in response to anyone who disagrees. You won’t find it in many teachings, although Bickle friend Rick Joyner’s stuff has these back-hands in it. A couple of months back one of Joyner’s weekly words included that those who disagreed with him, that is, who don’t accept his teaching, which, as a “prophetic” or revelatory word has the implied weight of God on it, those who don’t accept it would not be able to remain Christians for very long but would become worms and die. I’m still here, Rick. I think IHOPpers either know very well what would happen if they disagreed or else don’t want to think about it. But why should they when they’ve already bought into it? The point of a discussion is to consider the others’ views and when you’ve already heard there is going to be opposition and it is not of God then you don’t have anything to hear or consider. This aspect is a manipulation and a cult-like feature of churches who are heavy on prophecy.
Steve Schultz of the Elijah List where Bickle/Joyner/Engle are featured frequently says to remember to be a blessing to those who oppose us. Is he talking about the world or other Christians? Why would someone be in opposition? Could it be because the prophecies contradict one another and couldn’t possibly all be from the same God?
Engle’s theology includes a quote from Honest Abe and some prophecy about the mantle of MLK. Surely, Adam, my friend, you can appreciate the theatrics of that and separate such things from “sound doctrine”.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 2/1/2008 1:40:57 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1498
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
...I’ve been looking around IHOP forums and see the same thing I’ve heard personally, and that is, a built-in response to anyone who disagrees. You won’t find it in many teachings, although Bickle friend Rick Joyner’s stuff has these back-hands in it. A couple of months back one of Joyner’s weekly words included that those who disagreed with him, that is, who don’t accept his teaching, which, as a “prophetic” or revelatory word has the implied weight of God on it, those who don’t accept it would not be able to remain Christians for very long but would become worms and die. I’m still here, Rick. I think IHOPpers either know very well what would happen if they disagreed or else don’t want to think about it. But why should they when they’ve already bought into it? The point of a discussion is to consider the others’ views and when you’ve already heard there is going to be opposition and it is not of God then you don’t have anything to hear or consider. This aspect is a manipulation and a cult-like feature of churches who are heavy on prophecy.
Steve Schultz of the Elijah List where Bickle/Joyner/Engle are featured frequently says to remember to be a blessing to those who oppose us. Is he talking about the world or other Christians? Why would someone be in opposition? Could it be because the prophecies contradict one another and couldn’t possibly all be from the same God?
Engle’s theology includes a quote from Honest Abe and some prophecy about the mantle of MLK. Surely, Adam, my friend, you can appreciate the theatrics of that and separate such things from “sound doctrine”.
Excellent points wintery!
We had some friends that aligned themselves with the whole Latter Rain/Kingdom Now Movement that Bickle, Joyner, Wagner, etc associate with. When we confronted them and explained that we did not agree with their theology, we were immediately branded with "Jezebel spirits". They basically said the same thing as these guys said. "If you're not with us, you're against us"
Once again, the main goal of Dominionist theology is to establish "One True Church" that once established, can then allow Jesus to return.
We know how the "One True Church" worked for Rome....eh?
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 2/1/2008 1:57:04 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1071
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
Once again, the main goal of Dominionist theology is to establish "One True Church" that once established, can then allow Jesus to return.
We know how the "One True Church" worked for Rome....eh?
i haven't seen any evidence here yet that bickle teaches this. what i've heard him say and what is on his website doesn't sound like that.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 2/1/2008 2:06:28 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1071
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
A couple of months back one of Joyner’s weekly words included that those who disagreed with him, that is, who don’t accept his teaching, which, as a “prophetic” or revelatory word has the implied weight of God on it, those who don’t accept it would not be able to remain Christians for very long but would become worms and die.
stuff like this should come with a reference.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 2/1/2008 2:53:59 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1498
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From: Connecticut
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
i haven't seen any evidence here yet that bickle teaches this. what i've heard him say and what is on his website doesn't sound like that.
See post 558
It is word for word from Dominionist theology
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 2/1/2008 3:02:15 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1071
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how is wealth transfer for building churches/houses of prayer, dominionist theology? perhaps it reminds you of that, but how does it fit perfectly?
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 2/1/2008 3:37:55 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1102
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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Well I had to come back to edit this post. First I want to apoligize for loosing my temper. But to be honest, intelectual dishonesty really burns me up inside.
So calmly lets go over this again.
Dominonists believe that the church will rise to power and eventually through more and more people believing, gain political control, and bring the entire world under one Christian government. This is very simalar to what is taught in postmillineal eschatology circles.
Pre-millinealism does NOT teach anythng close to this. Pre-millinealism does not teach that the church will even come close to having political control over the earth. In fact, one of the hallmarks of pre-millinealism is that there will be a great apostasy (or falling away) FROM the church, as in the church is loosing power, just prior to the tribulation and the second coming of Christ Jesus. Furthermore, IHOP is post-tribulation, which means they believe that the church will still be on earth during the tribulation, and thus the TARGET of persecution from the Anti-Christ and Satan.
Clearly there is NO reference to the church taking control ANYWHERE in pre-millinealism. Therefore, how can you continue to think that IHOP, which is pre-millenialist, is Dominionist?
< Message edited by Stephanos -- 2/1/2008 5:03:55 PM >
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 2/1/2008 5:04:03 PM
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wintery
Posts: 1866
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
THe more and more you people try to lable IHOP as Dominonist, the more and more you show yoruselves as complete and utter fools!
For the hundreth time.
Dominonists teach that the church will eventually rule the world.
IHOP DOES NOT TEACH THIS! And if you think that they do, you are a darn fool! IHOP is one of the strongest pre-millenial, post-tribunal groups out there. It is because of my discussions with my friend who goes to IHOP that I changed from pre-trib to post trib. And here it is again, NO pre-millenial believing church EVER believes that the church will rule the world. Can we hear that again? Pre-Millenial churches DO NOT BELIEVE that the church will ever rule the world!!!!!! If you can not see that, then your eschatology is non-existant, and again, you are a darn fool!
Hello Stephanos,
After seeing several posts with so many words in all caps, I must say, I have never seen anyone appear so angry discussing their own church, much less someone else's.
Whatever the reason, let me look at the Dominionism arguement. So Dominionism sees the church ruling the world. And Bickle sees...a worldwide movement growing and increasing with "billions", his word, monetary "billions" in wealth being transferred from the world to the church and is training his Joseph company for this task. If I take the nameplate off a Chevrolet, is it a completely different product from GM that actually happens to look and perform exactly like a Chevrolet, the car that it in fact is, but is only missing the nameplate?
Paul Cain, latter rain teacher and KC prophet, along with Bickle who can't be judged according to the standard of a prophet because he doesn't claim to be one, only prophetically gifted, Paul Cain who looked at a pancake house and started to prophesy--is he not a latter rain teacher because the latter rain movement is denounced in the IHOP statement of core beliefs "We have had no relationship at all to this past movement." Uhh...starting when?
Stephanos, "I have had no relationship at all with the church I formerly attended, since the last time I was there." Any thinking person would rip me apart on that assertion.
A guy may no longer have a skunk in his basement but he may still smell like it.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 2/1/2008 5:11:36 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1071
Status: offline
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according to bickle the wealth is only for building up prayer houses and he specifically says he does not believe christians will rule the world before Christ's return. re his website's core beliefs statements.
so what do you have from bickle that says he DOES think christians will rule the world?
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 2/1/2008 5:21:19 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1102
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
THe more and more you people try to lable IHOP as Dominonist, the more and more you show yoruselves as complete and utter fools!
For the hundreth time.
Dominonists teach that the church will eventually rule the world.
IHOP DOES NOT TEACH THIS! And if you think that they do, you are a darn fool! IHOP is one of the strongest pre-millenial, post-tribunal groups out there. It is because of my discussions with my friend who goes to IHOP that I changed from pre-trib to post trib. And here it is again, NO pre-millenial believing church EVER believes that the church will rule the world. Can we hear that again? Pre-Millenial churches DO NOT BELIEVE that the church will ever rule the world!!!!!! If you can not see that, then your eschatology is non-existant, and again, you are a darn fool!
Hello Stephanos,
After seeing several posts with so many words in all caps, I must say, I have never seen anyone appear so angry discussing their own church, much less someone else's.
Whatever the reason, let me look at the Dominionism arguement. So Dominionism sees the church ruling the world. And Bickle sees...a worldwide movement growing and increasing with "billions", his word, monetary "billions" in wealth being transferred from the world to the church and is training his Joseph company for this task. If I take the nameplate off a Chevrolet, is it a completely different product from GM that actually happens to look and perform exactly like a Chevrolet, the car that it in fact is, but is only missing the nameplate?
Paul Cain, latter rain teacher and KC prophet, along with Bickle who can't be judged according to the standard of a prophet because he doesn't claim to be one, only prophetically gifted, Paul Cain who looked at a pancake house and started to prophesy--is he not a latter rain teacher because the latter rain movement is denounced in the IHOP statement of core beliefs "We have had no relationship at all to this past movement." Uhh...starting when?
Stephanos, "I have had no relationship at all with the church I formerly attended, since the last time I was there." Any thinking person would rip me apart on that assertion.
A guy may no longer have a skunk in his basement but he may still smell like it.
So the whole eschatology side of dominionism is ignored because it completely blows this pathetic attack on IHOP out of the water?
As I said, intellectual dishonesty from a Christian is sadly pathetic. You and others like you are trying so hard to smash this square peg into a round hole, and you are only making fools of yourselves in the process.
Lets go over it AGAIN!
Eschatologically speaking, IHOP is not, nor can even be considered to be Dominionist in any way shape or form. The system of pre-millienialism completely prohibits this. And to add onto this, the post-tribunal side also blows the link to dominionism away.
Again, to those who say IHOP is dominionist, how in the world do you get past IHOP's eschatological view!!!
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 2/1/2008 5:29:01 PM
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wintery
Posts: 1866
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
THe more and more you people try to lable IHOP as Dominonist, the more and more you show yoruselves as complete and utter fools!
For the hundreth time.
Dominonists teach that the church will eventually rule the world.
IHOP DOES NOT TEACH THIS! And if you think that they do, you are a darn fool! IHOP is one of the strongest pre-millenial, post-tribunal groups out there. It is because of my discussions with my friend who goes to IHOP that I changed from pre-trib to post trib. And here it is again, NO pre-millenial believing church EVER believes that the church will rule the world. Can we hear that again? Pre-Millenial churches DO NOT BELIEVE that the church will ever rule the world!!!!!! If you can not see that, then your eschatology is non-existant, and again, you are a darn fool!
Hello Stephanos,
After seeing several posts with so many words in all caps, I must say, I have never seen anyone appear so angry discussing their own church, much less someone else's.
Whatever the reason, let me look at the Dominionism arguement. So Dominionism sees the church ruling the world. And Bickle sees...a worldwide movement growing and increasing with "billions", his word, monetary "billions" in wealth being transferred from the world to the church and is training his Joseph company for this task. If I take the nameplate off a Chevrolet, is it a completely different product from GM that actually happens to look and perform exactly like a Chevrolet, the car that it in fact is, but is only missing the nameplate?
Paul Cain, latter rain teacher and KC prophet, along with Bickle who can't be judged according to the standard of a prophet because he doesn't claim to be one, only prophetically gifted, Paul Cain who looked at a pancake house and started to prophesy--is he not a latter rain teacher because the latter rain movement is denounced in the IHOP statement of core beliefs "We have had no relationship at all to this past movement." Uhh...starting when?
Stephanos, "I have had no relationship at all with the church I formerly attended, since the last time I was there." Any thinking person would rip me apart on that assertion.
A guy may no longer have a skunk in his basement but he may still smell like it.
So the whole eschatology side of dominionism is ignored because it completely blows this pathetic attack on IHOP out of the water?
As I said, intellectual dishonesty from a Christian is sadly pathetic. You and others like you are trying so hard to smash this square peg into a round hole, and you are only making fools of yourselves in the process.
Lets go over it AGAIN!
Eschatologically speaking, IHOP is not, nor can even be considered to be Dominionist in any way shape or form. The system of pre-millienialism completely prohibits this. And to add onto this, the post-tribunal side also blows the link to dominionism away.
Again, to those who say IHOP is dominionist, how in the world do you get past IHOP's eschatological view!!!
Hello Stephanos,
While neither pathetic nor dishonest, I am done for the day and probably for the weekend. Have a good one! See you next week!
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 2/1/2008 5:46:03 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1102
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: offline
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So you leave with out answering the eschatological issue with claming IHOP is domininonist. Again, intellectual dishonesty at its best. If you believe you may be wrong, ADMIT IT. If you think that pre-millenialists believe that the church will take over the world, say that is what you believe. If you think IHOP is lying when they say they are pre-mil, post-trib, then say so! But continuing to run in a circle claiming IHOP is dominionist, when solid evidence has been given to PROVE they are not, that makes you intellectually dishonest.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 2/2/2008 11:04:20 AM
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wintery
Posts: 1866
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
So you leave with out answering the eschatological issue with claming IHOP is domininonist. Again, intellectual dishonesty at its best. If you believe you may be wrong, ADMIT IT. If you think that pre-millenialists believe that the church will take over the world, say that is what you believe. If you think IHOP is lying when they say they are pre-mil, post-trib, then say so! But continuing to run in a circle claiming IHOP is dominionist, when solid evidence has been given to PROVE they are not, that makes you intellectually dishonest.
No, I left because I was off the clock at work and my family needed me.
The problem with this is that you haven't slowed down to see who is posting what. I said I'd take a look at the Dominionism claims and did so in a conversational manner. Furthermore, I see no response from you, zero, zilch, nada, none on the things I said.
I'll skip the conversation and say that I see variations on a theme in IHOP's statements of what they don't believe. Statements of what they don't believe! Incredible!
By posting that your definition by textbook puts them in the clear, you have not considered why they must deny these associations.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 2/2/2008 11:14:35 AM
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wintery
Posts: 1866
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
Excellent points wintery!
We had some friends that aligned themselves with the whole Latter Rain/Kingdom Now Movement that Bickle, Joyner, Wagner, etc associate with. When we confronted them and explained that we did not agree with their theology, we were immediately branded with "Jezebel spirits". They basically said the same thing as these guys said. "If you're not with us, you're against us"
Once again, the main goal of Dominionist theology is to establish "One True Church" that once established, can then allow Jesus to return.
We know how the "One True Church" worked for Rome....eh?
Naming spirits that aren't found in Scripture is an entire subject to itself, and it is found among these "ministries" whose only "credibility" comes from endorsing one another. Who can sort out the variations in The Kingdom Movement, Kingdom Now and other Dominionist twists? It's more important to see their associations and realize that their beliefs mutate over time, making statements of what they do or don't believe secondary to what they actually practice.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 2/2/2008 1:54:21 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1071
Status: offline
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wintry, i still don't see what you're basing your claim that bickle is a dominionist, on.
what is your definition of dominionist?
why is it a problem with someone stating what they DON'T believe as well as what they DO believe? seems an effort to be clear to me.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 2/2/2008 5:46:00 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1263
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Well I had to come back to edit this post. First I want to apoligize for loosing my temper. But to be honest, intelectual dishonesty really burns me up inside.
So calmly lets go over this again.
Dominonists believe that the church will rise to power and eventually through more and more people believing, gain political control, and bring the entire world under one Christian government. This is very simalar to what is taught in postmillineal eschatology circles.
Pre-millinealism does NOT teach anythng close to this. Pre-millinealism does not teach that the church will even come close to having political control over the earth. In fact, one of the hallmarks of pre-millinealism is that there will be a great apostasy (or falling away) FROM the church, as in the church is loosing power, just prior to the tribulation and the second coming of Christ Jesus. Furthermore, IHOP is post-tribulation, which means they believe that the church will still be on earth during the tribulation, and thus the TARGET of persecution from the Anti-Christ and Satan.
Clearly there is NO reference to the church taking control ANYWHERE in pre-millinealism. Therefore, how can you continue to think that IHOP, which is pre-millenialist, is Dominionist?
Thank you, Stephanos, for this very clear description of what Dominionism is. I appreciate it greatly.
I said in an earlier post that just because someone believes that there will be a transfer of wealth to support a ministry, does not mean that that person believes in all the other points of a certain doctrine. I wish people could lighten up a little and 'listen' to what's being said.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 2/2/2008 5:52:11 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1263
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
according to bickle the wealth is only for building up prayer houses and he specifically says he does not believe christians will rule the world before Christ's return. re his website's core beliefs statements.
so what do you have from bickle that says he DOES think christians will rule the world?
That's a very good question, mrsdash. One must believe that if they are a dominionist. And who cares anyway that Dominionists believe what they do? It does not pertain to salvation in any way so does not make them heretics at all. And if they're wrong, they will sooner or later discover that for themselves when they are either raptured or the tribulation happens and they are all terribly persecuted. They'll be able to then say, "Oh, gosh, we were wrong! Well, let's keep worshipping Jesus anyway!"
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 2/3/2008 7:41:18 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 956
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:
Everything you disagree with is an accusation. I no longer think you're trying to obfuscate, I know you believe it. The entire discussion is a matter of sound doctrine, from both viewpoints, or what's the point? I disagree with Mike Bickle. Considering his reported affection for mystics of the dark ages, it is interesting that you chose to ask me to "recant". No, not everything I disagree with is an accusation. An accusation is telling me that IHOP-KC is devoid of sound doctrine (devoid meaning completely empty of). That is beyond being a "Berean" and is all the way into heresy hunting. The entire discussion is arguing about finer points of doctrine, which I think we would all agree is not a primary topic. No one will be in Hell because they believed IHOP-KC's teaching on prophecy. No one will be in Hell because they believed that the church is destined to take over the world prior to the return of Christ. For all the bluster many have put forth about eschatology being secondary, I find it interesting that so many are willing to put IHOP-KC in the realm of fruitcakes because they THINK ihop-kc is a part of the dominionist strain (to be noted again... they are not).
I used the word "recant" on purpose because people enjoy using words like "heresy", "heretic", "false _____". So I got a bit punchy... isn't the first time and won't be the last. Would you care if I rephrase it and say "would you care to wthdraw your accusation of IHOP-KC being 'devoid' of sound doctrine"? There is a fine line between disagreeing with someone, and declaring them to be outside the faith entirely. Which, based on this...quote:
While intended as a mere example of manipulation including volunteers, perhaps it is indeed an analogy we've stumbled into.
Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
How do we pull the sheepskin off the wolf? A person teaching you what they believe (say it's biology teacher going over evolution) does not believe themselves to be "lying" or doing any harm, while a Christian (and I know there are various views, I'm not going there) may see things another way. ...you are more than quite willing to do. If you did not intend to be drawing a line between the two, then there is no reason to put them in the same sentance. My point is that it seems to be quite popular to imply that if you dissent, you are either being lied to or you just aren't using your "good Christian sense". I seem to remember a thread in the "general faith" folder where everyone was giving mental assent to "in essentials, unity; in non-essentials, grace; in all things, charity". Amazing how this falls apart when push actually comes to shove. The fact is that you are willing to pan the entire organization as either duped, decieved, or unthinking because you have difficulty with secondary doctrines.quote:
I don't agree that it can be considered an exposition on Revelation 17 and 18--extrapolation perhaps but that is a stretch. Those chapters are about Babylon and its fall. I looked up Bickle’s teaching on this. I believe you named the wrong chapters. Actually not, I was in the room when he gave the sermons on Revelation 17 and 18 that I'm referring to. To each his own about accuracy of exegesis, but if you listen to the sermons he gave about it you will actually hear where he gets his stuff from. However, this would be a gigantic merry-go-round to start arguing about it here. Since we've already been on a couple of those and seen the "results" of our lengthy arguments, I would suggest that that is pointless.quote:
"Heart" is a fuzzy buzz word and it always means "innocence". "Playing the 'G' card" doesn't cut it. (That means "God card" for those who didn't get it.) Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? This all leads back to testing the prophet—which no defender of IHOP is willing to do. Heart may be a "fuzzy buzz word" for you. However, it isn't a buzz word for me. Judging the spirit of another is something that nobody has the right to do... or the ability to do accurately.quote:
But to part A, I went back to the first couple of pages of the IHOP poll and I would say nothing has changed between us since then. That was what I was trying to point out in my response. I'm glad we agree on something. Since we are no further in this discussion, why must we continue it?quote:
Considering the amount of hysteria in the “defenses” of IHOP—i.e., the true leaven, workers of Satan, and God’s gonna getcha for that –posts, well, there’s been a lot of slinging of the word “fruits” around, and why don’t we look at this aspect. Should you like to begin discussing errors in argument form, shall we start looking at verbal attacks from the "arguments" against IHOP? i.e., Devoid of sound doctrine, being duped, being lied to, being decieved.quote:
there’s been a lot of slinging of the word “fruits” around, and why don’t we look at this aspect. What causes this type of reaction to a discussion? Is that the only way to respond? No. That is the fact. Jesus himself said that "by their fruits you will know them." To date, no one has shown anything that is truly heretical that IHOP-KC actually teaches. There's a lot of speculation of what "group" we are a part of, but nothing that we actually teach. Are there people losing their salvation because they attended the OneThing? Will people be in Hell because they were on staff? Does Jesus no longer love people because they spent their lives "praying incorrectly"? The only real danger is finding out that you love Jesus more at the end of it than you did when you started.quote:
I’ve been looking around IHOP forums and see the same thing I’ve heard personally, and that is, a built-in response to anyone who disagrees. You won’t find it in many teachings, although Bickle friend Rick Joyner’s stuff has these back-hands in it. A couple of months back one of Joyner’s weekly words included that those who disagreed with him, that is, who don’t accept his teaching, which, as a “prophetic” or revelatory word has the implied weight of God on it, those who don’t accept it would not be able to remain Christians for very long but would become worms and die. I’m still here, Rick. I can't speak for Rick Joyner. His words are on his own head. I thought this discussion was about IHOP-KC and Mike Bickle, so let's keep this there. I haven't used the ill-speak you quoted, and you won't find it in Mike's sermons, so it isn't a valid argument in this thread. Most of the people who actually know what they are talking about and have been around IHOP-KC for a while don't.quote:
The point of a discussion is to consider the others’ views and when you’ve already heard there is going to be opposition and it is not of God then you don’t have anything to hear or consider. This aspect is a manipulation and a cult-like feature of churches who are heavy on prophecy. Okay, I don't want to, but I will ask anyway... Did you actually consider my point of view? Did you have a pre-notion that IHOP-KC is not of God? Before claiming that I wasn't honestly discussing, ask yourself your own questions. We weren't having a discussion... what the last 25 pages would count as would be an argument. Were the language a bit more hostile it would have been a "flame war". Some people asked me questions, and I answered them to the best of my ability. Some people disagreed with me, so I gave reasons for believing what I do. Many of those who disagree with me still do, and if anything their opinion of me has lowered. Though I feel this is no fault of my own, I will strongly object to the "cult-like" statement made earlier.
Do you believe that your doctrine is of God? If you answer yes, then whatever disagrees with you is NOT of God... otherwise God is of a duplicitous mind and we have no business believing anything He says anyway. So no, this is not cult-like... this is called believing something to be truth. If you believe something is true, anything that disagrees with you must necessarily be false in your mindset, or else the truth is not absolute. Since God is true and every man is a liar, you either believe God or you believe a lie... else God is not absolute either. Considering that none of us have perfect doctrine, we all have an equal amount of opportunity to be dogmatic about something that is false. So the question becomes, if you throw a party when you "prove" someone else to be false, how will you feel when the world finds out what falsehoods you held on to at the Great White Throne? Remember, the measure you use is the measure you will get according to the Sermon on the Mount.quote:
Engle’s theology includes a quote from Honest Abe and some prophecy about the mantle of MLK. Surely, Adam, my friend, you can appreciate the theatrics of that and separate such things from “sound doctrine”. First off, if there is anything this discussion has proven, it is that I am not your friend. Secondly, I don't like being flattered. Thirdly, Lou Engle's theology isn't theatrics. Martin Luther King turned the world on it's ear in his time because of preaching justice for the downtrodden and afflicted. I believe that MLK had an apostolic gifting, because (A) he was martyred for his message and (B) the country was anything but the same after his life ended. You want fruit to prove that MLK was an apostle in his day? Barack Obama is a black man running for President of the USA. Had you told anyone that was a possibility in the 60's, you would have been laughed out of town, shot, or both. I don't agree with Obama, and I wouldn't dream of voting for his platform, but the man is overcoming in ways that black people in the 1950's and 60's couldn't have dreamed about. Lou had a dream/vision in which God told him that the mantle that was on MLK was being offered for the changing of this nation again. Lou doesn't claim to have that mantle or be "the one" who will change the country... he believes that God wants to change this country, and Lou wants to see it happen... so he prays and prays and prays and teaches other people the same.quote:
We had some friends that aligned themselves with the whole Latter Rain/Kingdom Now Movement that Bickle, Joyner, Wagner, etc associate with. once again, this is flat out false. Mike and IHOP-KC are not part of the LR or Kingdom Now movements. Mike has specifically contradicted both from the platform. Considering how many people have said this, it is evidence that I am not actually being listened to.quote:
It is word for word from Dominionist theology No it isn't. Soxfan, how many times do I have to say it before you will even notice that I am saying it? I am a staff member here, I hear Mike speak in person............... a lot............... a whole lot. Mike has and will continue to contradict all three movements you are trying to "pin" us as.quote:
If I take the nameplate off a Chevrolet, is it a completely different product from GM that actually happens to look and perform exactly like a Chevrolet, the car that it in fact is, but is only missing the nameplate? The problem with this argument is that we only have the hubcaps off the car that everyone claims we are driving. Better question... Does putting a '68 ferrari bumper on a '92 Chevy Nova make it a foreign luxury car? Of course not. Dominionism is talking about taking over the world politically, militarily and actually. Mike is talking about God providing for His Son's Bride at the end of the age. There is a world of difference between the two.quote:
is he not a latter rain teacher because the latter rain movement is denounced in the IHOP statement of core beliefs "We have had no relationship at all to this past movement." Uhh...starting when? Paul Cain was a latter rain preacher. Many of the prophecies given in 1983 are coming true. Mike is not a part of the latter rain movement (or I should say, former movement), and as far as I can remember, before having his recent moral issues, Paul Cain was no longer a part of the Latter Rain movement either. So really, the connection you are making between IHOP-KC and the Latter Rain group is fuzzy at best.quote:
The problem with this is that you haven't slowed down to see who is posting what. I said I'd take a look at the Dominionism claims and did so in a conversational manner. Furthermore, I see no response from you, zero, zilch, nada, none on the things I said.
I'll skip the conversation and say that I see variations on a theme in IHOP's statements of what they don't believe. The fact is that our eschatology directly contradicts Dominionism, our evangelism using our eschatology contradicts the Kingdom Now crew, and the fasting and prayer for God to break in with power in Kansas City contradicts the Latter Rain movement. So really, it isn't just a wrote denial. It is a fact of being here. So really, the arguments of IHOP being a part of either of these three movements are DOA (dead on arrival). **thought deleted by author... too un-humble** Rather than using the standard arguments against IHOP-KC, lets talk about facts. It would be a refreshing change.quote:
do or don't believe secondary to what they actually practice. Fair enough... lets talk about what we practice... IHOP-KC is built on four key values (interestingly enough, these also spell "IHOP" in acronym form). These values are Intercession (partnering with God in prayer), Holiness (living rightly by the empowering Grace of God), Offerings to the poor (living simply to give more away), and the Prophetic (hearing God's voice and responding to Him in love and devotion). All four of these are the main things that IHOP staffers are taught to live by. Our "code of conduct", if you will. I can show all four in action on the campus at almost any given time (that I'm awake). IHOP has a select few main focuses of what we do... Namely, praying for God to send revival (with a particular focus on the Nation of Israel), restoring the First Commandment to First Place in the lives of the staff members (Love the Lord your God), establishing a habitation for the spirit of God through Night and Day prayer until the return of Christ, raising up and training others to do the same. You want IHOP-KC in a nutshell, there it is.quote:
They'll be able to then say, "Oh, gosh, we were wrong! Well, let's keep worshipping Jesus anyway!" This is the thing that gets missed in discussions like this one. At IHOP-KC your doctrine is secondary... the primary is doing the First Commandment. If I find out that I'm wrong in my doctrine, it doesn't destory my day because I can go into the Prayer Room, say "Hey God, I blew it... but you love me passionately anyway... (Song of Solomon 1:4)" The basis for everything that happens at IHOP-KC is a simple "God loves me, and God likes me... even in my weakness and immaturity". If taking comfort in God's desire for my heart is wrong, then I don't want to be right.
Adam
< Message edited by FurGodWurLivin -- 2/3/2008 7:49:35 AM >
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 2/3/2008 2:46:56 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
Status: offline
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It is also written: Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. And, God looks at the heart.
quote:
quote:
"Heart" is a fuzzy buzz word and it always means "innocence". "Playing the 'G' card" doesn't cut it. (That means "God card" for those who didn't get it.) Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? This all leads back to testing the prophet—which no defender of IHOP is willing to do. Heart may be a "fuzzy buzz word" for you. However, it isn't a buzz word for me. Judging the spirit of another is something that nobody has the right to do... or the ability to do accurately.
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