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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 4:59:11 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3867
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Do you really not get that saying things like "I suspect that is too difficult for you to grasp." and dozens of other equally offensive remarks are personal attacks?
I suspect that you do not understand what a "personal attack" actually means. If I were to say to you, "you are stupid", that would be a persoanl attack. When I say "I suspect that is too difficult for you to grasp", I am expressing my suspicions about how much you can grasp. KJB has just noted that he sees no difference whether a text is a parable or not. So, that is an admission that he does not grasp the difference between parables and narratives. I think it is too difficult for him to grasp.
Speaking of "suspicions", let me tell you I've plenty about you. How is it you think it's proper to "speculate" on what people are capable of grasping? Don't you think everyone could speculate on your ability to "grasp"?
I disagree with your pov on an issue - only in your world does that make it "too difficult for me to grasp". This is the same ploy you continually use on anyone who doesn't agree with you.
And, yeah, you might as well be saying "you are stupid" because that's exactly how you are intentionally portraying whoever is on the receiving end of your barbs.
And, btw, more disingenuousness on your part. There isn't the slightest indication anywhere of KJB not knowing the difference between a narrative and a parable - that's just more of your "stupid" insinuations.
It was obvious to anyone, without your agenda of insinuating other people are stupid, what he was saying. He made his point using the example of Christ speaking in parables: "Some of these people were given no understanding and yet He still spoke to them in parables that He knew they were not grasping."
This is my last word on your lack of decent comportment. If it actually begins to bother me, I'll just put you back on ignore where you were for many months.
I'll reply to your first sentence - last. I suspect it is you who does not "grasp" what a personal attack is...and to quote you so sad.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 5:30:11 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3867
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Does Acts 13:48 address the "cause" of the Gentiles believing? It does say they were "tasso", which has a rather wide usage. But, since God isn't in the text, what support do you have for God being the "cause" in Acts 13:48? Do you see how silly your defense is in Acts 10 about "cause"? Then this has you ordaining yourself for eternal life....don't think even you can do that.
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So, while David was sinning and being wholly devoted to the Lord, he was not lvoing the Lord. How can one be wholly devoted and not loving? If you want to see David being whole devoted to the Lord - read the Psalms.
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Now, kelman, please pay attention to what John DIDN'T write in v.30. He did NOT write "as He spoke these things, many thought they believed in Him". No. He was very clear: many came to believe in Him. Please pay attention to what Christ said concerning the second soil "and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have". Whyever would you make such a comparison? Clearly there are believers and some who only think they are...Christ is perfectly clear on that in Scripture.
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Also, kelman, please pay attention to what John DIDN'T write in v.31. He did NOT write "Jesus therefore was saying to those Jews who thought they had believed in Him". No. He was very clear; Jesus was speaking to Jews within the larger crowd who had believed in Him.
Really, FreeGrace, please pay attention to the fact that what you're saying is irrelevant since there is no connection between these two events and clearly, now pay attention, there are believers and nonbelievers like the second soil.
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Such inability to address this question nor answer it demonstrates the deficiency of the theology. You remind me of a dog with a bone. What's the big deal? Christ taught this way throughout His ministry. You're not making any great theological point as you seem to think you are. Christ often said very similar things in a number of different settings "for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" is very similar to John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,".
As KJB pointed out when Christ spoke in parable those people didn't understand His teaching either. This is simply more of the same - preaching to people who don't understand.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 5:39:54 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3867
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Hey boys and girls, White Flag!
i am calling for seaze fire for a minute-
Do you see the c/a thread being updated on general Christian Doctrines list or is it stuck on 1311 page? is it cookies on my machine, or could be a bug?
I think you broke the joint with your heavy artillery, rascals! 
K or any other dearest wildcat from C - can you please address Common grace arg. i made here
Probably not your machine unless mine has the same disease...though, I've got some different symptoms...lol.
Every time I hit ok to post I get an error message. The page doesn't change it doesn't bring me to what I just posted...it's a pain. I reported it on the "bug report" but so far nothing.
The really odd thing is that this only happens on the C/A thread. I can post fine on other threads. Oh, well maybe it's a sign...lol
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 5:44:52 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3867
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Hey boys and girls, White Flag!
i am calling for seaze fire for a minute-
Do you see the c/a thread being updated on general Christian Doctrines list or is it stuck on 1311 page? is it cookies on my machine, or could be a bug?
Sorry to see that you are having some troubles as well. My opening CW page hasn't shown an update since a post of mine 2 days ago! Also, when I hit the OK button, I get a big dialogue box that says "server error in '/' application". I have to X out of that, and hit the refresh button before I can see my own post. But the site no longer takes me to my new post. I have to find it. Bummer.
I addressed this with the webmaster early today, but haven't heard back. I hope they fix it. Quite irritating.
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I think you broke the joint with your heavy artillery, rascals!
Aw, shucks, ma'am, that whar jist targit practice. 
Sorry, for your troubles; but, it's good to know someone else "feels my pain"...lol
Are you able to post on other threads without difficulty?
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 5:55:38 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3867
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I think that is totally bogus. Being willing to honor God has zero to do with being without sin. I am MORE than willing to stop all sin, yet, because of my sin nature (thanks Adam!) I cannot stop sinning. But, I am MORE than willing to stop. So, your point is NOT made. If you're so willing why don't you stop sinning? No one's forcing you to....whatever. Nope, you're simply doing what you desire to do.
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Actually, thanks for pointing this out. I have been the one to repeatedly ask the reformists about the next 6 verses that Paul quoted from the OT after v.10-12. Since the reformed pov is that 3:10-12 speaks of no one in the human race seeking God, what do you do with the other 6 quotes from the OT. Do ALL of them also refer to the entire human race? And you have repeatedly been given the answer.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 5:55:42 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1578
Joined: 3/11/2007
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KJB,
quote:
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No, I am asking you WHY did Jesus even bother to warn them. You haven't answered that yet.
Get real.
That is not what you are getting at and you know it.
You are trying to prove that people have the ability all on their own to believe the gospel.
You are trying to prove it with text of Jesus telling people plain truth while the same text is void of any truth on the matter of human ability.
You are trying to build a human ability POV system out of text that proves and shows nothing at all of a human ability system.
Instead of giving me a supply of Scripture text that supports the notion that people are able to believe all on their own......you supply text that says nothing about any such ability and try to support the text with your fantasies.
You hit the proverbial nail on the head. This is merely another example of trying to prove that man is the pivotal cause of his believing the gospel. The argument is based upon presumption.
Fact: God commands
Presumption: this must mean man is morally able to do it
Fact: God warns
Presumption: this must mean man must be morally able to respond to God's warning
It is not much of an argument because it obviously is based upon preconceived notions about the ability of man in and of himself.
Blessings,
SH
< Message edited by SureHope -- 8/12/2008 6:45:55 AM >
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 6:21:01 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1578
Joined: 3/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
You missed my question. I know what David did. You didn't answer what "wholy devoted" means to you. From 1 Kings 11:4.
That would be an interesting topic, but I am staying focused on and not being sidetracked from the topic of discussion. No man has been man able to do that which God has created him to do and commanded him to do. David is another example of a man who did not fulfill God's purpose and command to love God with all his heart, mind, soul and strength.
OK, end of debate on this topic, then. I see being "wholly devoted" as equivalent to loving God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. If you don't want to answer what being "wholly devoted" means to you, OK.
I answered enough to show that David did not fulfill God’s command to love Him with every fiber of his being. I find it very interesting that you don’t see this obvious fact.
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Being unwilling to honor God is sin. Hopefully you recognize this simple fact.
I do recognize that. I also, as you appear not to, that God created mankind to seek Him, which would include being willing to honor Him. If one cannot honor Him, or because of some perceived "preferences" won't, yet God created him to do so, I disagree with your pov, and I am convinced that God created mankind with the ability to do what He created him to do. You disagree, so, end of discussion.
Sure I disagree with you, and have shown you why – God commands that which man has been unwilling to fulfill (loving God with all the heart, mind, soul and strength) and thus have proven unable to fulfill it.
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If man was genuinely willing to honor God and did so, he would be without sin. Man has been unwilling not to sin and thus has dishonored God
I think that is totally bogus. Being willing to honor God has zero to do with being without sin. I am MORE than willing to stop all sin, yet, because of my sin nature (thanks Adam!) I cannot stop sinning. But, I am MORE than willing to stop. So, your point is NOT made.
You are the only one in control of your sinning or not sinning. You can’t blame it on Adam or say, “the devil made me do it.” If you were more than willing to stop sinning you would stop sinning.
I guess you don’t have freedom of will. You contradict yourself in a huge way here.
Or are you saying that God did not create you not to sin, but instead created you to sin. I guess you have an excuse, for it is not your fault for sinning. I guess you don’t have free will and you have to sin.
When you sin you are doing the opposite of loving God. What you just admitted is that you are unable to fulfill God’s command to love Him with every fiber of your being.
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Does anyone choose that which they do not prefer? Of course not.
While you will simply disagree, most likely, many people have chosen things they DID NOT WANT to do. Yea, yea, you can argue all about "ulterior motives", etc, but the FACT is that people many times choose things they wouldn't prefer to do. You don't have a point.
If you like it or not I have a very valid point. The reason people make choices is because they want to make the choice, even when it may bring discomfort and pain. It is very funny that you would think otherwise. I thought you believed in free-will. But now you appear to be contradicting yourself by saying that some people make choices that they don’t want to make. What? Are they forced to make them by outside forces? God or the devil?
Everyone chooses that which they want to choose. Even when people make hard choices that they don’t like, the reason they ultimately choose them is because they believe it is best for them that they do.
Everyone chooses that which they prefer . . . everyone!
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Even when someone does something that is hard or brings discomfort, it is done because of an end that is preferred. Preference has everything to do what is chosen. If, for example, a person hates canned peas and prefers fresh beans, his choice between the two will be made based upon his preferences; all things being equal, he will choose the fresh beans. Although in certain circumstances he may prefer the canned peas because it is easier to store, but he still chooses that which he prefers. This is quite simple and basic. Man's free will is only limited by the disposition of his heart and mind; that which he prefers.
All of this is negated by one simple fact of Scripture. God created mankind to seek Him. Your pov is that man does NOT prefer to do so. Yet you haven't proved it at all.
You argue against the obvious. None of what I have said is negated by what you think man was created for. Whatever he was created for does not change the fact that man chooses that which he prefers. This is the freedom that man has. I thought you believed in freedom of the will.
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Actually, your pov is rather silly: God created mankind to seek Him, yet "forgot" or "didn't know how" to create the "preference" needed to seek. The very fact that God created mankind to seek Him should be obvious to anyone with on open mind and desire to seek truth that God would NOT create man without the "necessary preference" to do what He created him to do.
That is your assumption. But if you think my position is silly than you don’t believe in the freedom of the will. Man is free to do that which he prefers to do; that which he wants to do.
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So, while David was sinning and being wholly devoted to the Lord, he was not lvoing the Lord. How can one be wholly devoted and not loving?
Again, you have to ask the man he had murdered.
Again, he's dead. Dead men don't talk. David was wholly devoted to the Lord. We disagree on what that means, so, end of discussion on that topic.
You miss the obvious. David was a murderer and an adulterer. Not a man that loved God with all of his heart, mind, soul and strength. He sinned just like the rest of us. He disobeyed God just like the rest of us. He dishonored God just like the rest of us. Thank God for His mercy and grace. David relied on God’s mercy and grace and offered sacrifices to God to cover his sins. David was justified by faith alone, not by his ability to love God with all his heart, mind, soul and strength.
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Are you suggesting that David loved the Lord with every fiber of his being when he was lusting after another man's wife, committed adultery with her and had her husband killed? I hope not. David clearly failed to obey God's command to love him with all of his being.
Hmm. let's see: "every fiber", "wholly devoted". Hmm. What's the difference? And, please, this isn't about sin. We all sin. Tell men HOW "every fiber" and "wholly devoted" are not the same thing without mentioning sin.
Sin is the issue so it must be mentioned. So you don’t think that sin is diametrically opposed to loving God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength? That is the position that your are putting forth. David was dependent upon the grace of God. He offered sacrifices to God to cover his sin. David knew that he was a sinner before God and had failed to fulfill God’s moral law. David is a great example of one who did not fulfill that which God had created him for and that which God commands. Because of this David was reliant upon the grace of God alone.
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No man has ever been able to love God with all his heart, mind, soul and strength. God made man to do so, commanded him to do so, and yet, man has refused to do so.
What does Job 1:1 say to you?
It says that Job was blameless, which does not mean that he was sinless, unless, of course, you believe in sinless perfection. You can bring up certain verses about different men, but you must remember that there are none who never sin.
Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins. (Ecclesiastes 7:20 NASB95)
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (Romans 3:23 NASB95)
Sin is the opposite of loving God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Sin shows that the heart is divided; that there are preferences to things other than God Himself. Job was someone who sinned and who repented, showing that he too is an example of someone who did not live up to God’s purpose and command to love Him with all your being, but trusted God’s grace and mercy.
Though I am righteous, my mouth will condemn me; Though I am guiltless, He will declare me guilty. (Job 9:20 NASB95)
I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; But now my eye sees You; Therefore I retract, And I repent in dust and ashes.” (Job 42:5-6 NASB95)
< Message edited by SureHope -- 8/12/2008 9:24:09 AM >
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 6:44:31 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1578
Joined: 3/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
So, what about, "every man has free will to believe whatever he wants" defies the "accepted meaning" of choice? And who's accepted meaning do you speak of?
What about it? Since you've de-limited "believe whatever he wants" to preferences, and you've denied that man was created witht he preference to seek God, how is your definition even valid?
What on earth do you mean when you say, “you’ve de-limited ‘believe whatever he wants’ to preferences?” Usually one wants that which he prefers or prefers that which he wants. I do not deny that man is created with the faculties to honor God and give thanks, but quite the opposite – all have been given every opportunity to do so, but have chosen not to, and therefore, they are without excuse. There are none that are without excuse for their dishonoring sin before God and all have dishonored God in and by their sin.
Since you continue to think that it is "sin" that dishonors God, and that man is able to choose not to sin, but just chooses to sin, and I believe that fallen man is unable to "not sin", further discussion is not warranted.
You have major problems with you statement, “since you continue to think that it is ‘sin’ that dishonors God.” I guess you think “sin” honors God? Get real FG. Sin does dishonor God. We were created to give glory to God and all have chosen to live unto themselves – this is sin. Martin Luther defined sin as, “self turned into self.” This is just the opposite of God’s purpose for man, which is self turned towards God in happy reliance upon Him. Man instead relies upon himself, which is sin and dishonors God.
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and I strongly disagree with your opinion that God would create mankind to seek Him, yet somehow keep such "preference" from him. Your pov just makes no sense, in light of Scripture. You've not shown otherwise.
It makes perfect sense in light of Scripture which I have abundantly shown.
We just keep on keeping on disagree with each other.
Seeking God denotes that someone does not know Him. Why is it that someone does not know God? The reason men do not know God is because of sin. Even though God has revealed Himself in creation, man has chosen not to honor Him as God (many believe that God exists, but do not honor Him as the God that He has revealed Himself to be in creation) or give thanks. All are without excuse for Sin. The essence of sin is being God dishonoring.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 8:09:01 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7662
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theophile2
I'll tell you what. If you can answer for me why God would tell us not to sin, to perfectly follow all of His commandments and to be as Holy as He is when we all know that we can't, then I will work to find you the same answer as it relates to believing in Christ as our Savior. Deal?
May God bless your studies.
I'll tell you what. I've repeatedly asked asked a very legitimate question regarding John 8:24. Most recent is 32878. If you would kindly give me your opinion as to WHY Jesus said what He did to either "non-elect" or "pre-faith" elect, then I'll give your question a go, OK?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 8:13:50 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7662
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
I disagree with your pov on an issue - only in your world does that make it "too difficult for me to grasp". This is the same ploy you continually use on anyone who doesn't agree with you.
If you do grasp my pov, why haven't you been accurate when you attempt to characterize it, then? It certainly appears that you haven't grasped it.
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And, btw, more disingenuousness on your part. There isn't the slightest indication anywhere of KJB not knowing the difference between a narrative and a parable - that's just more of your "stupid" insinuations.
He said whether John 8:24 was a parable or not was not important. What does that mean to you?
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It was obvious to anyone, without your agenda of insinuating other people are stupid, what he was saying. He made his point using the example of Christ speaking in parables: "Some of these people were given no understanding and yet He still spoke to them in parables that He knew they were not grasping."
But the point is that Christ told His elect disciples that they were given understanding. So, why haven't any of the elect reformed ones been able to understand WHY Jesus said what He said in John 8:24? Hasn't Jesus given you the understanding of that verse?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 8:20:58 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1595
Joined: 12/2/2006
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FreeGrace,
King James Bond cant tell the difference between parables and narratives....... 
That is one of your new distorted ploys.
This is in fact your post;
quote:
Since ALL Scripture is profitable, why would Jesus have any "secret motives" when warning either non-elect, or "pre-faith" elect? Neither makes sense, from the reformed pov.
You can find that quote as well as my response in post number 32840.
Here is part of my response as it starts out;
Jesus spoke to some people in parables. Some of these people were given no understanding and yet He still spoke to them in parables that He knew they were not grasping.
Why would He speak truth to them in parables when He knew and was perfectly clear they were VOID of any understanding on these secret things?
Why do you think He would do such a thing?
Do you suppose that God exercises justice as well as kindness on the earth?
10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"
Jesus replies;
11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.
But the question still remains as to why? Why is it given to us and not to them? Why does He speak to them in that way so that they do not understand?
What is the reason and purpose of giving certain people the knowledge of the secrets.......but not to others?
I was making no mention at all that I could not tell the difference between parables and narratives.
I was simply using more Scripture because you implied all Scripture is profitable.
We are later told in profitable Scripture;
14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
Now isnt that the cats meow!
He knows they will NEVER understand and He knows they will NEVER perceive, and yet He still tells keeps telling them the truth.
Taunting is it?
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 9:03:11 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7662
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Does Acts 13:48 address the "cause" of the Gentiles believing? It does say they were "tasso", which has a rather wide usage. But, since God isn't in the text, what support do you have for God being the "cause" in Acts 13:48? Do you see how silly your defense is in Acts 10 about "cause"? Then this has you ordaining yourself for eternal life....don't think even you can do that.
No, since "tasso" doesn't have as its root meaning "to ordain/appoint". The rroot meaning is "to line up, to set up in a line", and comes from a military usage. What the Gentiles did was "line up" to hear about eternal life. This is very clear from the text, esp note v.43 and 44. The text clearly supports the idea that they were very interested in the words (gospel) of Paul and of eternal life.
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Now, kelman, please pay attention to what John DIDN'T write in v.30. He did NOT write "as He spoke these things, many thought they believed in Him". No. He was very clear: many came to believe in Him.
Please pay attention to what Christ said concerning the second soil "and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have". Whyever would you make such a comparison? Clearly there are believers and some who only think they are...Christ is perfectly clear on that in Scripture.
Your answer fails to address what John actually wrote. There is NO HINT of these believers "only thinking they had believed". And I have paid attention to what Jesus said in Luke 8:12,13. He equated believing with being saved, and said the second soil believed. The "for a while" is irrelevant to being saved.
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Such inability to address this question nor answer it demonstrates the deficiency of the theology.
You remind me of a dog with a bone. What's the big deal? Christ taught this way throughout His ministry. You're not making any great theological point as you seem to think you are. Christ often said very similar things in a number of different settings "for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" is very similar to John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,".
Why can't you give a simple explanation of WHY Jesus told the "non-elect" that they would die in their sins unless they believed in Him? Do you notice the "unless"? That is a word for potential. Why would Jesus indicate potential to the class known as "non-elect". I'm trying to understand Scripture from the reformed perspective, but so far, none of the reformed have been helpful in understanding WHY Jesus said what He said in John 8:24.
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As KJB pointed out when Christ spoke in parable those people didn't understand His teaching either. This is simply more of the same - preaching to people who don't understand.
But, WHY would Jesus use "potential" with the "non-elect"? From your perspective, that doesn't make any sense. I'm trying to understand your theology, but you aren't helping. And there are NO parables in John 8, so that is no defense.
You need to face the fact that the phrase "unless you believe that I am He" is a potential. iow, IF they believed in Him, THEN they wouldn't "die in their sins".
WHY would Jesus say that to the "non-elect" who the reformed consider to be "prepared for destruction" anyway?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 9:07:50 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7662
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I think that is totally bogus. Being willing to honor God has zero to do with being without sin. I am MORE than willing to stop all sin, yet, because of my sin nature (thanks Adam!) I cannot stop sinning. But, I am MORE than willing to stop. So, your point is NOT made. If you're so willing why don't you stop sinning? No one's forcing you to....whatever. Nope, you're simply doing what you desire to do.
With a "new heart", no less. I am willing to stop, but my sin nature isn't.
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Actually, thanks for pointing this out. I have been the one to repeatedly ask the reformists about the next 6 verses that Paul quoted from the OT after v.10-12. Since the reformed pov is that 3:10-12 speaks of no one in the human race seeking God, what do you do with the other 6 quotes from the OT. Do ALL of them also refer to the entire human race?
And you have repeatedly been given the answer.
Not. So, you apply each and every verse from 13 to 18 as applying to each and every person in history? Are your feet "swift to shed blood"? Wow!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 9:21:27 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7662
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
You missed my question. I know what David did. You didn't answer what "wholy devoted" means to you. From 1 Kings 11:4.
That would be an interesting topic, but I am staying focused on and not being sidetracked from the topic of discussion. No man has been man able to do that which God has created him to do and commanded him to do. David is another example of a man who did not fulfill God's purpose and command to love God with all his heart, mind, soul and strength.
OK, end of debate on this topic, then. I see being "wholly devoted" as equivalent to loving God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. If you don't want to answer what being "wholly devoted" means to you, OK.
I answered enough to show that David did not fulfill God’s command to love Him with every fiber of his being. I find it very interesting that you don’t see this obvious fact.
At this point, all I'm asking is what "wholly devoted" means to you. I still don't know.
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If man was genuinely willing to honor God and did so, he would be without sin. Man has been unwilling not to sin and thus has dishonored God
I think that is totally bogus. Being willing to honor God has zero to do with being without sin. I am MORE than willing to stop all sin, yet, because of my sin nature (thanks Adam!) I cannot stop sinning. But, I am MORE than willing to stop. So, your point is NOT made.
You are the only one in control of your sinning or not sinning. You can’t blame it on Adam or say, “the devil made me do it.” If you were more than willing to stop sinning you would stop sinning.
I blame my sin nature for my sin, as Paul did in Rom 6 and 7. Your last statement here indicates you do not understand the sin nature. I don't want to sin, but my sin nature does. There is a constant battle between my sin nature and my human spirit, as Paul noted.
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When you sin you are doing the opposite of loving God. What you just admitted is that you are unable to fulfill God’s command to love Him with every fiber of your being.
Just thought of something. Are you suggesting the command must be continuous? If not, then it is certainly possible to do it at times.
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Actually, your pov is rather silly: God created mankind to seek Him, yet "forgot" or "didn't know how" to create the "preference" needed to seek. The very fact that God created mankind to seek Him should be obvious to anyone with on open mind and desire to seek truth that God would NOT create man without the "necessary preference" to do what He created him to do.
That is your assumption. But if you think my position is silly than you don’t believe in the freedom of the will. Man is free to do that which he prefers to do; that which he wants to do.
Well, did God "forget" to add the ability to seek Him or not? If He created man to seek Him, man HAS the ability to do so. Many don't, and many have.
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Sin is the issue so it must be mentioned. So you don’t think that sin is diametrically opposed to loving God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength? That is the position that your are putting forth. David was dependent upon the grace of God. He offered sacrifices to God to cover his sin. David knew that he was a sinner before God and had failed to fulfill God’s moral law. David is a great example of one who did not fulfill that which God had created him for and that which God commands. Because of this David was reliant upon the grace of God alone.
Did David sin continuously? When he wasn't sinning, but being dependent on the grace of God and offering sacrifices to God to cover his sin, was he loving God with every fiber or not? Please explain.
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No man has ever been able to love God with all his heart, mind, soul and strength. God made man to do so, commanded him to do so, and yet, man has refused to do so.
What does Job 1:1 say to you?
It says that Job was blameless, which does not mean that he was sinless, unless, of course, you believe in sinless perfection. You can bring up certain verses about different men, but you must remember that there are none who never sin.
Ah, and my point is that no believer sins continuously. So, what are believers doing when they aren't sinning? Why can't you accept that when believers aren't sinning, they are able to love God with every fiber?
This isn't an "all or nothing" deal, as you seem to think.
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Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins. (Ecclesiastes 7:20 NASB95)
Exactly my point! It isn't "all or nothing". We all sin, but we don't sin continuously. What are we doing when we aren't sinning?
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for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (Romans 3:23 NASB95)
Yes. Do you sin continuously or occasionally?
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Sin is the opposite of loving God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Sin shows that the heart is divided; that there are preferences to things other than God Himself. Job was someone who sinned and who repented, showing that he too is an example of someone who did not live up to God’s purpose and command to love Him with all your being, but trusted God’s grace and mercy.
Again, do you sin continuously or occasionally?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 9:21:41 AM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Justification, forgiveness, salvation, and eternal life are based on our faith. You mention the "faith of Jesus"... Yes, I sure did mention it since the Bible is quite clear that it is the faith of Jesus Christ that justifies which means in canNOT be your faith.
Please notice those 3 little dots after "Jesus". Why didn't you deal with the verses I presented that link our forgiveness, justification, salvation and eternal life on what we believe? Can you be more honest here?
LOL...imagine you lecturing on honesty!
I did deal with them. I said none of the verses you supplied indicate that it is your faith which saves. But, contrary to you, I was able to supply verses which say that it is the faith of Jesus Christ which justifies.
How can you claim honesty when you didn't deal with any of them. For example, Acts 16:31 says Paul told the jail to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and he would be saved. How is that the "faith OF Christ"?
And you haven't dealt with Romans 3:11, "There is no one who seeks God," or John 6:64 when Jesus was talking about Judas; "This is why I tell you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.' So you need to deal with the plank in your own eye so you can see clearly enough to remove the speck from the eyes of anyone else.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 9:23:39 AM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Justification, forgiveness, salvation, and eternal life are based on our faith. You mention the "faith of Jesus"... Yes, I sure did mention it since the Bible is quite clear that it is the faith of Jesus Christ that justifies which means in canNOT be your faith.
Please notice those 3 little dots after "Jesus". Why didn't you deal with the verses I presented that link our forgiveness, justification, salvation and eternal life on what we believe? Can you be more honest here?
LOL...imagine you lecturing on honesty!
I did deal with them. I said none of the verses you supplied indicate that it is your faith which saves. But, contrary to you, I was able to supply verses which say that it is the faith of Jesus Christ which justifies.
How can you claim honesty when you didn't deal with any of them. For example, Acts 16:31 says Paul told the jail to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and he would be saved. How is that the "faith OF Christ"?
And you need to deal with Romans 3;11, and John 6:64 which you haven't done but instead, tried to interpret other verses to contradict those passages. So you need to first address the plank from your own eye so you can see clearly enough to remove the speck from the eyes of anyone else. 
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 9:25:19 AM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Justification, forgiveness, salvation, and eternal life are based on our faith. You mention the "faith of Jesus"... Yes, I sure did mention it since the Bible is quite clear that it is the faith of Jesus Christ that justifies which means in canNOT be your faith.
Please notice those 3 little dots after "Jesus". Why didn't you deal with the verses I presented that link our forgiveness, justification, salvation and eternal life on what we believe? Can you be more honest here?
LOL...imagine you lecturing on honesty!
I did deal with them. I said none of the verses you supplied indicate that it is your faith which saves. But, contrary to you, I was able to supply verses which say that it is the faith of Jesus Christ which justifies.
How can you claim honesty when you didn't deal with any of them. For example, Acts 16:31 says Paul told the jail to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and he would be saved. How is that the "faith OF Christ"?
And how can you claim honesty when you still haven't dealt with Romans 3;11 or John 6;64 which you haven't done but instead tried to interpret other verses to contradict those passages? So you need to first deal with the plank in your own eye so you can see clearly enough to remove the speck from the eyes of anyone else.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 9:27:39 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7662
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
You have major problems with you statement, “since you continue to think that it is ‘sin’ that dishonors God.” I guess you think “sin” honors God?
You seem to be having "major problems" understanding my statements. Your silly conclusion is baseless, that I think that sin honors God. The issue from Rom 1 is that ignoring and not seeking God is what dishonors Him, in spite of His making His existence clearly seen to everyone.
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Seeking God denotes that someone does not know Him.
No, seeking God denotes that the person has become aware of the existen ce of god and His power, nature, and attributes and wants to know more. No one seeks that which they are unaware of. Such as fools, who claim there is no God. Such ones do not seek Him, as Psa 14 and 53 state.
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Why is it that someone does not know God? The reason men do not know God is because of sin.
The ONLY reason people don't know God is because they fail to seek Him. Because, if they did seek Him, as the Scriptures promise, they WILL find Him.
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Even though God has revealed Himself in creation, man has chosen not to honor Him as God (many believe that God exists, but do not honor Him as the God that He has revealed Himself to be in creation) or give thanks. All are without excuse for Sin. The essence of sin is being God dishonoring.
No, all are without excuse for not seeking Him. Since you and completely disagree on what we are without excuse, there is no reason to continue this endless discussion.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 9:31:07 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7662
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
He knows they will NEVER understand and He knows they will NEVER perceive, and yet He still tells keeps telling them the truth.
Taunting is it?
From the reformed perspective, it sure is! You still haven't explained WHY Jesus would tell the "non-elect" they were going to die in their sins, given the reformed pov that they are simply "prepared for destruction" anyway.
Further, the phrase "unless you believe that I am He" introduces a potential. Why would Jesus use a potential with the "non-reformed", since in reformed theology, there is absolutely NO potential for the "non-elect" to either believe or be saved.
Why can't you answer this? Your theology creates these questions when considering John 8:24. Yet, you can't. Why not?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 9:33:30 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7662
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Carico
And you haven't dealt with Romans 3:11, "There is no one who seeks God,"
Well, Carico, where have you been lately? Of course I have. Rom 3:10-12 is a direct quote from Psa 14 and 53, and the subject is fools, not the human race. But I guess you just don't believe the Bible, and you think Rom 3:10-12 applies to everyone in the human race. In spite of the fact that Cornelius was an unbeliever who did seek God, and did find Him.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 10:44:05 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1769
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
SureHope,
I am glad you wanted to stay on track with the topic.
You have given good solid answers TOO many times to list.
The POV FreeGrace tries to give on Romans 3:11......there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.........is something he always points back to Psalms 14 as he claims it only applies to a specific group called fools as non-fools seek God on their own.
Psalm 14;
1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
FreeGrace has a very bad habit of never reading further to find out more.
Psalm 14 continues;
1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God | | |
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