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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 11:20:08 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7663
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
Please notice that I said that God draws all who are seeking Him. Do you disagree?
Yes FG... I disagree...God draws those whom He has chosen. No man is seeking God unless God first draws him.Bob
My point is that God HAS drawn first, by reason of the fact that He created mankind to seek Him, and by the fact that He has made Himself evident to everyone, so that no one has any excuse for not seeking Him.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 11:26:05 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7663
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
The Bible clearly declared that God created mankind [to seek Him. Do you know of any verses that also declare that God created mankind to love Him?
God's ultimate command - the command that is the essense of all His commands - is to love Him. God does not command us to do that which we are not created to do. I don't think so. That would not be just. I think God's ultimate command to us - to love Him with all of our being - shows that he created us to love Him.
What do you think? Do you think that God commands us to do that which we were created to do?
or
Do you think that God commands us to do that which we were not created to do?
What do you think FG?
I asked you a question, which you ignored. Please answer my question, and then I will answer this one.
I don't know of any verse that directly states that God created man to love Him with all of his being. There is my answer to your question.
Thanks. I don't know of any either. But, I DO know that man WAS created to seek God.
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What is your answer?
Do you think that God commands us to do that which we were created to do?
Of course.
quote:
or
Do you think that God commands us to do that which we were not created to do?
No. It is absurd to command anyone to do what they were not created to do. Or, to command anyone to do what they are unable to do.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 11:30:30 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7663
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
umcbee,
quote:
That's probably the problem you are having in understanding the view . We do understand sin .
I dont think you do.
No one seeks God.
So, please answer this question for me. Since God DID create mankind to seek Him, do you think He failed to get His creatures to do what He created them to do?
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That is the natural position of sinful mankind.
9What shall we conclude then?
Are we any better?
Not at all!
We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
You see, you really do NOT understand any of this. What does sin have to do with either seeking or not seeking God?
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Are you now going to tell us all that seeking God is not better than not seeking God?
Are we any better? Not at all.
Again, you fail to grasp the issue. Seeking God is what we were created to do. So it isn't an issue of being better or worse. It's an issue of choosing whom you will seek, just as Joshua 24:15 makes clear. But, you don't understand that, do you.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 11:48:44 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
umcbee,
quote:
That's probably the problem you are having in understanding the view . We do understand sin .
I dont think you do.
No one seeks God.
So, please answer this question for me. Since God DID create mankind to seek Him, do you think He failed to get His creatures to do what He created them to do?
quote:
That is the natural position of sinful mankind.
9What shall we conclude then?
Are we any better?
Not at all!
We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
You see, you really do NOT understand any of this. What does sin have to do with either seeking or not seeking God?
quote:
Are you now going to tell us all that seeking God is not better than not seeking God?
Are we any better? Not at all.
Again, you fail to grasp the issue. Seeking God is what we were created to do. So it isn't an issue of being better or worse. It's an issue of choosing whom you will seek, just as Joshua 24:15 makes clear. But, you don't understand that, do you.
Why do you ask people questions when you ignore their answers? We have answered your same questions over and over and over again and you ignore them. So it really doesn't do any good for you to keep asking the same questions. So the only thing that can help you is to read and believe the whole bible, not just take phrases out of context. Until you do that, there's nothing anyone here can do for you because you've shown that you ignore much of the bible just like you ignore our answers. 
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 4:03:15 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3867
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: tdd1975
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I believe you have misunderstood me, and it seems you have made some bad inferences as a result.
At no time in my response did I say "always" or "all the time". My statement is that without the Spirit, I couldn't do any of these things ever. With the Spirit, I can. Sure I slip up, but I can actually do them.
Perhaps there is misunderstandings on both sides.
Calvinism doesn't teach that men never seek God. That would be crazy.
I agree. But I suggest you check out the posts of KJB, Manna, and kelman, who have been constantly attacking my pov that man can and does seek God. You know, FG, for one who is always accusing everyone of "not paying attention" - you ought to heed your own "advice".
Had you "paid attention" you would have seen that I've said man CAN seek God; but, man canNOT seek God the way God commands - with his whole heart.
Right. Man CAN, but man canNOT. Sure.
Yep.....absolute sure and true as well.
Many seek God. Take, for instance the Muslims, they are seeking God. Are they seeking God as He commands, FG?
Lots of people seek God even those with a Christian background may seek God, but until God regenerates their "desperately wicked and deceitful above all things" heart - nope, they will NOT seek as He commands - with their whole heart.
So, yep...for sure!
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 4:12:02 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3867
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
And, all mankind has "suppressed or ignored the Truth" - that's what Paul says.
Would you be so kind as to tell me the exact verse where he says that "all mankind" has suppressed or ignored the Truth? Sure, Paul says right in Romans 3 that he is referring to both Jew and Gentile. So, unless you know of some other designation God uses - it means ALL.
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
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Not so, FG. God has created all to seek Him; and, God has made Himself evident to all - still, not all do. Why?....because God must still do more - He must change the desperately wicked and deceitful above all - heart of man.
The only problem is you have no support for that from Scripture.
Sure I do, FG. So, you see the real problem is you don't believe Scripture when you read.
Ezekiel 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
So, we have Eze 36:26; John 3:3, 5, 7, 8; 1 Pet 1:3 for just a few. And, I like the testimony of Lydia that God had to open her heart so that she might "attend" the words of Paul. Regeneration or being born again is a supernatural birth. Just as we cannot do anything to be born physically - it just happens to us - so too we cannot do anything to cause our spiritual rebirth.
So, you're not about to seek, love, believe, repent, obey - anything - until God gives a new heart and then you can do those things with your whole heart - as He commands.
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I'm not "claiming" anything. I said it is possible Cornelius was regenerate early on in Acts 10 or at the very least he was being drawn by God. You are aware you have no "solid support" for your pov? It remains simply that - your pov.
Ha. My support is Acts 10, and I've only noted what the text says.
If you actually think you "know" when Cornelius was regenerated then it is simply from your imagination. God does not tells us.
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Obviously then, we must feel sympathy for such a poor god who draws and draws and draws...with so little to show for it.
Why any sympathy? Remember that no one has any excuse for not recognizing, honoring God and being thankful to Him, per Rom 1.
Why would you want to sympathize with someone who has NO EXCUSE? That makes no sense at all. Of course it makes no sense because you have obviously read too quickly. My "sympathy" was not with man; but with the god you describe.
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I'm not. It is the calvinists who understand "helkuo" only as drag. It is clear from the uses in Scripture what helkuo means - and it most certainly is drag.
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You need to pay attention. And what you need is to be a little less rude.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 4:20:08 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3867
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
You can't have it both ways. A God that is "interested" in man; but, doesn't ever involved Himself with the events of mankind.
I consider the FACT that He created mankind to seek Him, AND the FACT that He has made evident Himself to man surely demonstrates His interest in man. Further, from the life of Cornelius, we see that He continued to provide further divine Truth to Cornelius. How is that not involvement? Nope, free will creates a theology where God remains aloof from the events of man - even from the event of the Crucifixion. God stands by hoping against hope that someone fulfills His plan for Him....that's pretty much sums up the free will theory. Which theory contradicts Scripture where we are shown that God does indeed work on the heart of man - even unregenerate man.
God decides the steps of man. Man may make his plans but it is always God's will which is fulfilled. Only when God gives the eyes to see, the ears to hear and the heart to understand will man seek Him in the manner God commands.
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I haven't said otherwise. Man can seek God, man can have faith, man can repent of some sins...man can do plenty....none of which will get him saved, though.
The Bible contradicts you. You agree that man can have faith, which I will take as "to believe". I'm sure you know what God does when man believes; He grants eternal life. No, FG, it is only your misunderstanding of Scripture that contradicts. God clearly shows us in many passages that there are those like the "second soil" who do not believe unto salvation.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 4:26:27 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3867
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sola37
Why would God repeatedly use human emotions (father to children, husband to wife) to illustrate His own love if we were not meant to understand ? Jesus even uses a hens love for her chicks as an example. A child could understand this kind of love and the illustrations the Bible uses - Yet Calvinists say "You cant understand the love of God" and when faced with the absurdity of the logical end of Calvinism, they basically have no other answer.
You guys are seriously missing the mark. God most definitely wants us to understand His love. The ultimate demonstration of His love was His death on the cross for ALL of mankind, not just a few. That is the Gospel message : God so loved the WORLD that WHOSOEVER believes
Why another Christian would want to twist the simple and beautiful meaning of that Gospel into something else is beyond my comprehension. Why anyone would want to try and limit Gods love or to limit the atonement of the Cross to only a select few people is , frankly, at best, insane, and at worst, plain evil.
Quite a post here, wrong as can be, but nevertheless quite a post.
No one here has ever said God does not love. And, we can even understand, to some degree, that love. The problem arises when people think they can understand the mind of God. That's presumptuous.
Can you explain why God loves only "some" people - the rest receive eternal damnation? That's not very loving, is it? Would you do that to one of your children? Would you let your son drown for ANY reason? Well, God does.
So far the only absurdity I've seen is when it is insanely claimed that an individual can fully understand the love of God - can understand the mind of God. Actually, one other absurdity is seen - when one refuses to look at ALL Scripture to discover the meaning of God's words.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 4:35:44 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3867
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sola37
kelman,
Is it safe to say that (according to the Bible) most of the world being on the broad road , and very few being on the narrow road to Heaven is a stumbling block for you ? I understand it is a difficult truth to deal with
How do we explain it ? Who is to blame ? Man or God ?
Well, you can say whatever you please since it's quite apparent you don't let the truth get in your way.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 8:47:24 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1578
Joined: 3/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
I don't know of any verse that directly states that God created man to love Him with all of his being. There is my answer to your question.
Thanks. I don't know of any either. But, I DO know that man WAS created to seek God.
Yes, man was created to seek God. The question is, does fallen man seek God based upon the evidence of creation alone or does he seek God because of God's gracious work in his heart (Acts 10 does not give us the answer). Has God created man to do that which man is so stubbornly unwilling to do, that it renders him unable? God’s purpose in creating man to love Him with his entire being and all men’s actions that go contrary to this purpose gives us insight into the answer to this question.
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Do you think that God commands us to do that which we were created to do?
Of course.
We are command to love God with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength. God created us to love Him in this way (as you admit above), but no one has done it. God has created man to do that which he stubbornly refuses to do. Although man has the will and mind to choose to love God with all of his being (he is able in that sense), he willfully chooses not to love God. Man is unable to love that which he refuses to love. Man’s inability is not based upon lack of faculties to do so, but lack of desire to do so; lack of willingness.
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Do you think that God commands us to do that which we were not created to do?
No. It is absurd to command anyone to do what they were not created to do. Or, to command anyone to do what they are unable to do.
Yes, you now admit that God has created man to love Him with all of his being. Man has proven that he is consistently unwilling to do this, yes even unable to do this in the sense that man is unable to do that which he refuses to do. Man's inability consists in his unwillingness.
In the same way fallen man does not sincerely seek the God that he hates. Fallen man does not seek the God of light when he loves darkness and hates the light.
God has created man to love Him and seek Him. Fallen man stubbornly does neither until God's gracious work is done in his heart.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 9:15:10 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7663
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Why do you ask people questions when you ignore their answers? We have answered your same questions over and over and over again and you ignore them.
I asked if God failed to get His creatures to do what He created them to do, and the "answer" I got from KJB was a quote from Rom 3:9, which did NOT answer the question. Why don't you answer the question, if you have one.
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So it really doesn't do any good for you to keep asking the same questions.
I guess you are right. Since the reformed just quote verses that DON'T answer my questions, it appears there isn't any point in my questions.
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So the only thing that can help you is to read and believe the whole bible
I will explain to you once again that what we non-reformed non-arminians don't believe is the reformed interpretation of the Bible.
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not just take phrases out of context. Until you do that, there's nothing anyone here can do for you because you've shown that you ignore much of the bible just like you ignore our answers.
Since you've joined this thread, you've done nothing more than throw empty charges at those who disagree with your interpretation, while you've done nothing to actually advance any of the discussions.
When are you going to contribute something of value to the discussion? For example, you claim here that I "take phrases out of context". Why don't you show me why you think so?
Your charges do nothing for this thread, except demonstrate to me that you have nothing to add other than reformed rhetoric. You haven't backed up even one of your charges yet.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 9:19:04 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7663
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Many seek God. Take, for instance the Muslims, they are seeking God. Are they seeking God as He commands, FG?
Of course not, kelman. But, here is the important question: do any of them have any excuse for where they are seeking Him? No. Why not? Romans 1 tells us.
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Lots of people seek God even those with a Christian background may seek God, but until God regenerates their "desperately wicked and deceitful above all things" heart - nope, they will NOT seek as He commands - with their whole heart.
Once more, just reformed rhetoric. Where is the verse that plainly states that one must be regenerated in order to believe? It just is NOT in the Bible. If your theory regarding regeneration preceding believing were true, then Paul's answer to the jailer makes no sense. Or, since you disagree with me, explain to me why his answer does make sense in light of your pov.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 9:38:33 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7663
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: kelman
And, all mankind has "suppressed or ignored the Truth" - that's what Paul says.
Would you be so kind as to tell me the exact verse where he says that "all mankind" has suppressed or ignored the Truth? Sure, Paul says right in Romans 3 that he is referring to both Jew and Gentile. So, unless you know of some other designation God uses - it means ALL.
Does "context" mean anything to you, kelman? Yes, Paul used "all" in ch 3 to mean everyone in the human race, including 3:23, where Paul included the entire human race in his explanation of how man is justified. But, the suppression of Truth noted in chapter one did NOT include ALL MEN, as you presume. If you disagree, show me where in chapter 1 where Paul says "all men suppress the truth".
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Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
That's why ALL MEN need to be justified freely by His blood, per 3:24,25.
[QUOTE] quote:
quote:
Not so, FG. God has created all to seek Him; and, God has made Himself evident to all - still, not all do. Why?....because God must still do more - He must change the desperately wicked and deceitful above all - heart of man.
The only problem is you have no support for that from Scripture.
Sure I do, FG. So, you see the real problem is you don't believe Scripture when you read.
Oh, so now you're going to act like Carico, huh? No, what I DON'T believe is the reformed theory of theology. That's quite different than not believing the Bible.
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Ezekiel 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
This is a specific promise to the nation of Israel. Are you Jewish? I'm not and this passage is NOT for Gentiles.
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So, we have Eze 36:26; John 3:3, 5, 7, 8; 1 Pet 1:3 for just a few. And, I like the testimony of Lydia that God had to open her heart so that she might "attend" the words of Paul.
I like those words as well. You see, she demonstrates the point I've been making that those who seek God will be given more Truth. You see, the Bible notes that she "worshiped God". Just like Cornelius. So God gave her more Truth. The "opening her heart" phrase does NOT equal regeneration, but the FACT that God makes sure people who seek WILL GET the info.
Recall the phrases from Rom 1 "made evident" and "clearly seen"? That is what God does for those who are seeking Him.
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Regeneration or being born again is a supernatural birth. Just as we cannot do anything to be born physically - it just happens to us - so too we cannot do anything to cause our spiritual rebirth.
I've never argued that we cooperate or assist God in our regeneration, so your statement here is irrelevant.
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So, you're not about to seek, love, believe, repent, obey - anything - until God gives a new heart and then you can do those things with your whole heart - as He commands.
None of the verses you've given prove that or even support that.
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I'm not "claiming" anything. I said it is possible Cornelius was regenerate early on in Acts 10 or at the very least he was being drawn by God. You are aware you have no "solid support" for your pov? It remains simply that - your pov.
Ha. My support is Acts 10, and I've only noted what the text says.
If you actually think you "know" when Cornelius was regenerated then it is simply from your imagination. God does not tells us.
What is an "indication" of regeneration? How about when the Holy Spirit is involved? When do we read of that with him? How about Acts 10:44?
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Obviously then, we must feel sympathy for such a poor god who draws and draws and draws...with so little to show for it.
Why any sympathy? Remember that no one has any excuse for not recognizing, honoring God and being thankful to Him, per Rom 1.
Why would you want to sympathize with someone who has NO EXCUSE? That makes no sense at all.
Of course it makes no sense because you have obviously read too quickly. My "sympathy" was not with man; but with the god you describe.
And why would you take the completely ridiculous pov that I have described some god? And you claim that I read too fast.
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I'm not. It is the calvinists who understand "helkuo" only as drag. It is clear from the uses in Scripture what helkuo means - and it most certainly is drag.
That is only one of its uses. Why don't you find and ask a Greek scholar about the use of "helkuo" in the Septuagint in Jer 31:3 and SoS 1:4?
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You need to pay attention. And what you need is to be a little less rude.
If one continues to mischaracterize my pov, what else can I conclude? And how else can I "suggest" one actually begin to pay attention? Thanks. btw, how often do I say "thanks" and "please" when I ask questions? Who else does that on this thread? Is that being rude?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 9:51:30 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7663
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
You can't have it both ways. A God that is "interested" in man; but, doesn't ever involved Himself with the events of mankind.
I consider the FACT that He created mankind to seek Him, AND the FACT that He has made evident Himself to man surely demonstrates His interest in man. Further, from the life of Cornelius, we see that He continued to provide further divine Truth to Cornelius. How is that not involvement?
Nope, free will creates a theology where God remains aloof from the events of man - even from the event of the Crucifixion. God stands by hoping against hope that someone fulfills His plan for Him....that's pretty much sums up the free will theory. Which theory contradicts Scripture where we are shown that God does indeed work on the heart of man - even unregenerate man.
I just gave you a reasonable response to show God's interest, and all you can do is repeat your empty charge that the FW pov paints God as "hoping against hope". Since I've many times noted God's omniscience, and the reformed rarely mention it, how can you honestly hold to that erroneous view? You know better, and you have no excuse.
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God decides the steps of man.
And that would include all of man's sins? No, man is NOT a puppet, whose strings are being pulled by God, even though your theology accepts that picture. You can't have it both ways. Either God DOES decide everything man does, which DOES make God the author of sin, OR, God has given man the freedom to choose his actions. The FW pov does NOT make God the author of sin, as the reformed pov does.
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Man may make his plans but it is always God's will which is fulfilled.
That is correct. No one argues otherwise. But God's will does NOT mean that He causes man to sin, or causes man to believe.
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Only when God gives the eyes to see, the ears to hear and the heart to understand will man seek Him in the manner God commands.
True. And He does that to those who seek Him actively. Like Lydia and Cornelius.
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I haven't said otherwise. Man can seek God, man can have faith, man can repent of some sins...man can do plenty....none of which will get him saved, though.
The Bible contradicts you. You agree that man can have faith, which I will take as "to believe". I'm sure you know what God does when man believes; He grants eternal life. No, FG, it is only your misunderstanding of Scripture that contradicts. God clearly shows us in many passages that there are those like the "second soil" who do not believe unto salvation.
Ha. Jesus equated believing with being saved in Luke 8:12. In the very next verse (context is KING), He notes the second soil believed.
Here is a syllogysm in the manner of Turretinfan:
One who believes is saved. Luke 8:12
The second soil believed. Luke 8:13
The second soil is saved.
Your argument that they only believed "for a while" is irrelevant, as previously noted, because there is NO WHERE in the Bible where there is a time limit on believing before one is saved.
When Jesus noted believing, He was speaking ONLY OF saving faith, which is quality of faith. The time limit that He spoke of speaks of quantity of faith, not quality of faith. So your argument fails.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 10:01:18 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7663
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
I don't know of any verse that directly states that God created man to love Him with all of his being. There is my answer to your question.
Thanks. I don't know of any either. But, I DO know that man WAS created to seek God.
Yes, man was created to seek God. The question is, does fallen man seek God based upon the evidence of creation alone or does he seek God because of God's gracious work in his heart (Acts 10 does not give us the answer).
It doesn't only IF one begins with the presupposition that man does not have the freedom to believe or reject what God makes evident. Acts 10 IS proof, even though reformed theology denies it.
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Has God created man to do that which man is so stubbornly unwilling to do, that it renders him unable?
No, it does not. Further, the very fact that man can be "unwilling" proves that man is free to choose. One cannot be unwilling if he is unable.
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Do you think that God commands us to do that which we were created to do?
Of course.
We are command to love God with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength. God created us to love Him in this way (as you admit above), but no one has done it. God has created man to do that which he stubbornly refuses to do. Although man has the will and mind to choose to love God with all of his being (he is able in that sense), he willfully chooses not to love God. Man is unable to love that which he refuses to love. Man’s inability is not based upon lack of faculties to do so, but lack of desire to do so; lack of willingness.
Yes, once more we get to the key; man's lack of willingness, which proves that he is able. btw, there is no verse that says that no one ever has been unwilling. Many are, to be sure. Lydia was NOT unwilling, nor was Cornelius. They were diligent in seeking God, and God made sure they both got more Truth revealed.
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Man's inability consists in his unwillingness.
No it doesn't. To be unwilling DEMANDS ability. Otherwise, there is NO issue in being either willing or unwilling.
For example, if you are physically unable to jump vertically 20 feet, it is irrelevant whether you are willing or unwilling to do it. iow, it doesn't matter. Only IF you could do it would being willing or unwilling relevant.
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In the same way fallen man does not sincerely seek the God that he hates.
Where do you read that everyone in human history hates God? What about Lydia and Cornelius? Is your pov that they hated the God that they worshiped? That would be absurd, of course.
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Fallen man does not seek the God of light when he loves darkness and hates the light.
No, the Bible says that "men love darkness", NOT that "all men" love darkness. It's always funny when the reformed always want "men" to mean everyone in history, but when the Bible speaks of "all men", they do NOT want it so speak of everyone in history. Why is that? Where's the exegesis in THAT?
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God has created man to love Him and seek Him. Fallen man stubbornly does neither until God's gracious work is done in his heart.
Verse, please?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 10:38:51 AM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
I don't know of any verse that directly states that God created man to love Him with all of his being. There is my answer to your question.
Thanks. I don't know of any either. But, I DO know that man WAS created to seek God.
Yes, man was created to seek God. The question is, does fallen man seek God based upon the evidence of creation alone or does he seek God because of God's gracious work in his heart (Acts 10 does not give us the answer).
It doesn't only IF one begins with the presupposition that man does not have the freedom to believe or reject what God makes evident. Acts 10 IS proof, even though reformed theology denies it.
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Has God created man to do that which man is so stubbornly unwilling to do, that it renders him unable?
No, it does not. Further, the very fact that man can be "unwilling" proves that man is free to choose. One cannot be unwilling if he is unable.
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Do you think that God commands us to do that which we were created to do?
Of course.
We are command to love God with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength. God created us to love Him in this way (as you admit above), but no one has done it. God has created man to do that which he stubbornly refuses to do. Although man has the will and mind to choose to love God with all of his being (he is able in that sense), he willfully chooses not to love God. Man is unable to love that which he refuses to love. Man’s inability is not based upon lack of faculties to do so, but lack of desire to do so; lack of willingness.
Yes, once more we get to the key; man's lack of willingness, which proves that he is able. btw, there is no verse that says that no one ever has been unwilling. Many are, to be sure. Lydia was NOT unwilling, nor was Cornelius. They were diligent in seeking God, and God made sure they both got more Truth revealed.
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Man's inability consists in his unwillingness.
No it doesn't. To be unwilling DEMANDS ability. Otherwise, there is NO issue in being either willing or unwilling.
For example, if you are physically unable to jump vertically 20 feet, it is irrelevant whether you are willing or unwilling to do it. iow, it doesn't matter. Only IF you could do it would being willing or unwilling relevant.
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In the same way fallen man does not sincerely seek the God that he hates.
Where do you read that everyone in human history hates God? What about Lydia and Cornelius? Is your pov that they hated the God that they worshiped? That would be absurd, of course.
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Fallen man does not seek the God of light when he loves darkness and hates the light.
No, the Bible says that "men love darkness", NOT that "all men" love darkness. It's always funny when the reformed always want "men" to mean everyone in history, but when the Bible speaks of "all men", they do NOT want it so speak of everyone in history. Why is that? Where's the exegesis in THAT?
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God has created man to love Him and seek Him. Fallen man stubbornly does neither until God's gracious work is done in his heart.
Verse, please?
The bible says; "No one seeks God." So it doesn't do any good to quote the bible when you deliberately avoid verses that contradict your beliefs. So you're making up your own bible and your own God.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 10:52:16 AM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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I'd like to ask non-reformists if they believe in Satan. Satan is the great deceiver because he deceives people into believing that the truth is a lie and that a lie is the truth. So where's free will if Satan deceives?  Or don't you believe in the power of Satan?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 11:29:57 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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All is not always all...
World isn't entire world...
More confusion for freewillers 
1 John 5:19 (King James Version)
19And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
If we are of God, then WHOLE world not in wickedness.
John 1:10 (King James Version)
10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Part of the world knew Him not; not the WHOLE world.
John 6:33 (King James Version)
33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
If life is given to WHOLE world, then all 100 % are saved.
John 14:31 (King James Version)
31But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
The WHOLE world does not know or care Jesus loves Father.
1 Corinthians 11:32 (King James Version)
32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
WHOLE world is not condemned. World cannot be “all”.
1 John 3:1 (King James Version)
1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Anyone in the WHOLE world doesn’t know these people ? No one ?
John 12:31 (King James Version)
31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Devil is prince of WHOLE world…even believers ?
Now look at verse 12…in the right context !!!
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
OK, let the spin begin !!!
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 11:35:01 AM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
All is not always all...
World isn't entire world...
More confusion for freewillers
1 John 5:19 (King James Version)
19And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
If we are of God, then WHOLE world not in wickedness.
John 1:10 (King James Version)
10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Part of the world knew Him not; not the WHOLE world.
John 6:33 (King James Version)
33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
If life is given to WHOLE world, then all 100 % are saved.
John 14:31 (King James Version)
31But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
The WHOLE world does not know or care Jesus loves Father.
1 Corinthians 11:32 (King James Version)
32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
WHOLE world is not condemned. World cannot be “all”.
1 John 3:1 (King James Version)
1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Anyone in the WHOLE world doesn’t know these people ? No one ?
John 12:31 (King James Version)
31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Devil is prince of WHOLE world…even believers ?
Now look at verse 12…in the right context !!!
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
OK, let the spin begin !!!
Jesus always makes a distinction between his chosen and the rest of the world. But Arminians don't believe that because they think it's unfair that God does the choosing just like the workers in the parable of the sower thought their employer was unfair. That's human reasoning which God tells us is foolish in his sight.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 12:05:10 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Jesus always makes a distinction between his chosen and the rest of the world. But Arminians don't believe that because they think it's unfair that God does the choosing just like the workers in the parable of the sower thought their employer was unfair. That's human reasoning which God tells us is foolish in his sight.
Hey C !
Why are freewillers so confused by words ?
We interchange words all the time !!!
We say, "Everyone was at the party".
Who is everyone ? All ? Or part of all ?
These remedial and fundamental concepts make it
hard to dialogue when folks insist on their way, and
ignore basic definitions and literary devices and rules.
Speaking of fair...why would anyone call God UNfair ?
Because they wouldn't do it that way ? And since they
are made in God's "image", God can't do it that way.
But, who O man, are you to talk back to God ?
Why are the angels not complaining about this ?
They had a similiar problem and lost 1/3 of them.
Are they angry at God in righteous indignation ?
Do they accuse God of being UNfair ?...Nope !
Why are the angels silent on this matter ?
Do they know something we don't know ?
Or do they submissively yield to God's decisions ?
And let's examine another UNfair decision of God's.
God is going to judge sin and condemn people to an
eternity in hell for 50 years of sin ? Or only 5 years ?
FOREVER in hell for only a few minor infractions ?
The freewillers should be squawking about that one !
That appears really, really UNfair, doesn't it !!!!
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 12:12:05 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7663
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
The bible says; "No one seeks God."
Yes, Rom 3:10 does. Paul made a direct quote from Psa 14 and 53, which speaks of fools, who say in their heart there is no God. Why would fools who reject the existence of God seek Him? So, while you think 3:10 speaks of all of humanity, it speaks of fools. I do NOT believe your interpretation of the verse, as you don't believe mine.
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So it doesn't do any good to quote the bible when you deliberately avoid verses that contradict your beliefs.
Well, you haven't yet provided any verses that contradict my pov.
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So you're making up your own bible and your own God.
No, you are making up your own view of what you think the free will view is. That's all.
All you've done is quote verses, as if that proves your point. Since ALL verses need interpretation, I reject yours, as you reject mine.
But, until you provide some substance in your disagreement, you haven't made any point at all.
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