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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 8:02:53 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7663
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Most Christians claim they have been saved by grace which means they did nothing at all to merit salvation. That means they did not DO something to merit salvation
You obviously merited your salvation by the good thing you did (believing).
I also claim that I have been saved by grace, which means that I did nothing at all to merit salvation. However, are you completely unfamiliar with the answer that Paul gave to the jailer who asked him what he must DO to be saved? Paul told him to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Now, do you seriously want to argue that Paul was teaching works salvation with his answer?
Also, are you completely unfamiliar with Rom 4:4,5 which differentiates works from faith, so that one's faith is non-meritorikous?
quote:
You have the nerve to sit there and tell me I dont even know what my own situation was in my own life?
So, what's the problem? I've been accused of not knowing my own pov by numerous reformed. 
quote:
Maybe it is about time you understand that the reformed do understand your POV and they know it is not Biblical.
Please explain why I keep having to correct the posts of the reformed who either mischaracterize my pov, or claim my pov leads to some conclusion, which it doesn't.
quote:
The only people you ever claim understand your POV are those that agree with it.
I would be more than happy to congratulate ANY calvinist who can accurately state my pov.
quote:
The wrong way to read it is;
all those that believed were appointed to eternal life.
I agree with you about this way to read it. When the entire context is accepted, it is clear that Luke was contrasting the unbelieving Jews who Paul indicted as "were not worthy of eternal life" with the believing Gentiles who were [b[]very interested in eternal life. Or, do you want to disagree that the Gentiles showed a very great interest in what Paul was teaching, which is eternal life?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 8:06:21 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7663
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
It's mind-boggling that Arminians don't believe the bible. They don't believe this verse either: Acts 2:39,
No, Carico, the only thing "mind-boggling" is your inability to understand the very clear and obvious difference between believing what the Bible says and believing what the reformists think the Bible says.
Every time you make this absurd claim that non-reformists "don't believe the Bible", you are only showing your ignorance. It is your interpretation of the Bible that we absolutely do NOT BELIEVE.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 8:09:57 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7663
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
The Bible clearly declared that God created mankind [to seek Him. Do you know of any verses that also declare that God created mankind to love Him?
God's ultimate command - the command that is the essense of all His commands - is to love Him. God does not command us to do that which we are not created to do. I don't think so. That would not be just. I think God's ultimate command to us - to love Him with all of our being - shows that he created us to love Him.
What do you think? Do you think that God commands us to do that which we were created to do?
or
Do you think that God commands us to do that which we were not created to do?
What do you think FG?
I asked you a question, which you ignored. Please answer my question, and then I will answer this one.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 8:16:55 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7663
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
You are admitting that, “There is none righteous” is quoted to prove “all [are] under sin” But you are also saying the use of the phrase “there is none” in verses 10-12 are not referring to the “all” in verse 9. You are saying that not all of the "all under sin" are part of the "none righteous," "none who understands," and "none who seeks God."
I am saying that Paul quoted from 7 OT passages to demonstrate how people are sinful.
You haven't answered my question yet. Do you want to argue that each verse from 10-18 speaks of each member of the human race?
Do you admit that you have "shed innocent blood"?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 8:21:25 PM
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umcbee
Posts: 1769
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
umcbee,
quote:
Well.........you have just proven what FG has been telling you all along...........that you really don't understand the free choice view period .
Hardly.
What do you mean , hardly ?
From what you posted its abundantly clear you don't understand the free choice view .
quote:
Free-willers and Arminians have a hard time understanding sin.
That's probably the problem you are having in understanding the view . We do understand sin .
quote:
Sin is AWAY from God.
I understand that .
quote:
Sin is not TOWARDS God.
No one disputes that .
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Sinning is not seeking God.
That don't mean that sinners don't and can't seek God .
quote:
Sin is seeking sin.
Then you are saying that as a Christian , everytime you sin , you are seeking sin and not God ?
quote:
Having a sin nature is NOT a good thing at all.
Who has ever said that it was ?
quote:
I understand that people are born locked into a sinful nature and not a free nature. They cant escape that and it is not something I wrestle with as I know it is just the ways things are.
So........you're telling me that you don't wrestle with sin ? Boy.......are you ever the blessed one ; even more blessed that the Apostle Paul .
quote:
All those people that cannot freely-choose not to sin will be held accountable for their sin unless they are forgiven.
If they don't have a choice , how will they ever ask to be forgiven ?
quote:
How this nature started....where it came from.....main causes.....primary causes.......secondary causes.....who everybody would like to blame.....did the devil make me do it......etc etc.......are all TRIVIAL to the fact that people cannot freely shake off this sinful nature they have and each one will be held by God for their sins even if they think, moan, groan, complain, and whine that they feel it is unfair.
What a ridiculess statement KJB . Who ever said that anyone can shake off the sin nature by themselves ? Have you managed to shake your's off even with the help of God ? Just another example that you really really don't have any understanding of free choice whatsoever .
quote:
If people are already so free.......what did Jesus come to set people free from.......their freedom?
Really KJB.......I didn't ever believe that I would have to explain this to such a Biblical tacktician as yourself . The answer is the fear of death , hell , and the grave .
Of course.......you will probably say that Jesus came to set people free from sin ; but if that is the case , why do you or I still sin ?
Jesus sets us free from the consequences of our sin ; which is death , hell and the grave .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 8:25:48 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Please notice that I said that God draws all who are seeking Him. Do you disagree?
Where is that written exactly ?
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 8:28:16 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7663
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Carico,
quote:
Acts 2:39, "The promise is for you and your children and for all whom the Lord our God will call."
Also Romans 11:25, "Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in." What's the "full" number? All the Gentiles? Of course not because all the Gentiles won't be saved. So the "full number" means a predetermined number of Gentiles that were chosen before the creation of the world as Romans 9:22 confirms.
Those are some pretty awesome proof texts.
I think there is a reason why FreeGrace does not apply Romans 3:13-18 to everybody.
I, for one, have never had a mouth "full of cursing and bitterness", nor have my feet ever "shed blood". I wonder how many of the calvinists have a violent background. To claim that each verse from 3:10-18 describes every person in the human race is worse than absurd.
quote:
FreeGrace does not see himself in that same position.
I've always acknowledged that I am a sinner, and needed salvation. But, a number of verses in 3:10-18 do NOT apply to me.
quote:
Such a position applies only to evil fools and evil sinners.
You again fail to grasp or understand my pov. 3:10-18 is a list of various sins that various people do, thus proving that "all are under sin".
quote:
I really feel that the text in Romans 3:13-18 is applicable to everybody even though it uses some strange terms.
Are you willing to agree that v.10-18 ALL described YOU?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 8:31:16 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7663
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Please notice that I said that God draws all who are seeking Him. Do you disagree?
Where is that written exactly ?
I'll answer that after you answer my question first.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 8:38:32 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
The Bible clearly declared that God created mankind to seek Him.
Really ?
Revelation 4:11 (King James Version)
11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour
and power: for thou hast created all things,
and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 8:46:17 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
They are better choosers. They see more. They aren't dead in sin, or trespasses. When sin entered the world...no impact. They can see in the dark. They understand more & know more. The love God with ALL their being. The believe they are more able. They instinctively know the way to Heaven.
Your "accusations" are so blatantly erroneous you should be ashamed.
Why then were you able to choose better ?
Why do others NOT choose Christ ?
Do you have better equipment ?
Do you possess greater understanding ?
Are you somehow favored by God ?
It certainly appears so...
You succeeded where other men failed !
Does God bless you more than other men ?
How were you able to make a better decision ?
What prompted you to choose Christ ?
Why did God NOT give this to the condemned ?
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 8:49:56 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
The text applies to everyone.
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
KJB, your interpretation is absurd. Maybe your feet were swift to shed blood, as well as your mother's, and father's, and sibling's, but mine never were, as is the case in most of the human race.
Guess God made you special then ?
Jesus says anger equals murder.
Matthew 5:21-22 (King James Version)
21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 8:53:54 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1905
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
Please notice that I said that God draws all who are seeking Him. Do you disagree?
Yes FG... I disagree...God draws those whom He has chosen. No man is seeking God unless God first draws him.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 8:56:22 PM
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umcbee
Posts: 1769
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
Surely the Holy Spirit is able to discern between "all men" and "all kinds of men" .
Yes, but are you able ...???
Sure , the Holy Spirit said "all men" . What about that don't you understand ?
quote:
Are you not familiar with literary devices ?
Yeah , I call a lot them textual gymnastics , which you are so fond of imploying .
quote:
We all here love the hyperbole !!!
Sure , it is simply helpful if all here understood when it is being used .
quote:
Look at this illustration for example.
Do we take it as a fundamentalist ?
Or does it mean something different ?
Acts 5:42 (King James Version)
42And daily in the temple,
and in every house, they ceased not
to teach and preach Jesus Christ.
Were they in EVERY house ? NO !
Can you make the distinction that the text is refering to believers in the church houses and not unbelievers in any other home ? Apparently not .
quote:
Did they "cease not" ? They had to cease.
How do you know that they didn't work in shifts ? IMO , you are questioning the text .
quote:
Things are not always as they appear
.......are they ?
Rightly dividing the Word of Truth would help you.............unless you believe the Holy Spirit is trying to pull the wool over your eyes .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 8:56:43 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
You keep ignoring or rejecting my point that because He created mankind to seek Him, and he makes Himself evident to everyone, that is how He is the factor in why people believe. Those things are the HOW in the drawing work of God toward mankind. Obviously then, we must feel sympathy for such a poor god who draws and draws and draws...with so little to show for it.
Why any sympathy? Remember that no one has any excuse for not recognizing, honoring God and being thankful to Him, per Rom 1.
Why would you want to sympathize with someone who has NO EXCUSE? That makes no sense at all.
Kelman is saying feel sorry for God !
God tries to draw...nothing !
God is attempting to call...nothing !
God is pleading with man to come...nothing !
God really wishes man would respond...nothing !
As opposed to: Things happen as God desires !
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 9:00:01 PM
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umcbee
Posts: 1769
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Its apparent to me that some here can type faster than they can think ! 
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 9:01:29 PM
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umcbee
Posts: 1769
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
Let the spin begin !!!
It began with Calvin
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 9:05:46 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1578
Joined: 3/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
The Bible clearly declared that God created mankind [to seek Him. Do you know of any verses that also declare that God created mankind to love Him?
God's ultimate command - the command that is the essense of all His commands - is to love Him. God does not command us to do that which we are not created to do. I don't think so. That would not be just. I think God's ultimate command to us - to love Him with all of our being - shows that he created us to love Him.
What do you think? Do you think that God commands us to do that which we were created to do?
or
Do you think that God commands us to do that which we were not created to do?
What do you think FG?
I asked you a question, which you ignored. Please answer my question, and then I will answer this one.
I don't know of any verse that directly states that God created man to love Him with all of his being. There is my answer to your question.
What is your answer?
Do you think that God commands us to do that which we were created to do?
or
Do you think that God commands us to do that which we were not created to do?
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 9:10:23 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1595
Joined: 12/2/2006
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umcbee,
quote:
That's probably the problem you are having in understanding the view . We do understand sin .
I dont think you do.
No one seeks God.
That is the natural position of sinful mankind.
9What shall we conclude then?
Are we any better?
Not at all!
We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
Are you now going to tell us all that seeking God is not better than not seeking God?
Are we any better? Not at all.
What part of you do you consider better than the fool that FreeGrace posts about?
If you think you were seeking God by your own free-will it goes along with the same concept that FreeGrace uses........those that do not seek are fools because they fail to see what God has made evident.
I repeat the text;
Are we ANY better?
Not at all.
It implies that in no way shape or form are we any better than the fool.
Do you suppose there is something BETTER about you than the foolish guy that did not seek?
You have a special God loving seeking ability?
John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing -- except it be given him from heaven.
Free-will concepts are a total lack in understanding of bondage to the sin nature.
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit that is from God -- so that we may understand the gifts bestowed on us by God.
And we speak of these things in words not taught by human wisdom.... but taught by the Spirit -- interpreting spiritual things to those who are spiritual.
Those who are unspiritual do NOT receive the GIFTS of God's Spirit.... for they are foolishness to them.... and they are unable to understand them.... because they are spiritually discerned.
Job 32:9
"It is not the old that are wise, nor the aged that understand what is right. But truly it is the Spirit in a mortal -- the breath of the Almighty -- that makes for understanding."
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 9:11:20 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sola37
Why would God repeatedly use human emotions (father to children, husband to wife) to illustrate His own love if we were not meant to understand ? Jesus even uses a hens love for her chicks as an example. A child could understand this kind of love and the illustrations the Bible uses - Yet Calvinists say "You cant understand the love of God" and when faced with the absurdity of the logical end of Calvinism, they basically have no other answer.
Ah, helpless Jesus...
Please come man, oh please, oh please !
You can have that kind of god...
Where are all these emotions you speak of ?
Please list more for our edification.
Now here's Calvie illustrations, which by the
way are not manmade, just taken from Bible.
---potter>>>>>>clay
---Creator>>>>>>>creature
---Master>>>>>>>servant
---Holy>>>>>>>unholy
---Sinless>>>>>>>sinful
---God>>>>>>>man
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 9:16:08 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
Let the spin begin !!!
It began with Calvin
Cute, but you forgot this part !!!
Tell that to the angels then...
At one time they didn't exist.
Yet, God created the angels knowing that
some of them would be eternally condemned.
God did the same thing with man.
WOW, freewill folk, there's a precedent.
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 11:05:33 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7663
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
The Bible clearly declared that God created mankind to seek Him.
Really ?
Apparently you are unaware of Acts 17:27, or as Carico would say, you don't believe the Bible.
quote:
Revelation 4:11 (King James Version)
11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour
and power: for thou hast created all things,
and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Is this some kind of attempt to pit Scripture against itself?
Do you think Rev 4:11 somehow negates Acts 17:27?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 11:15:05 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7663
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote]ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
They are better choosers. They see more. They aren't dead in sin, or trespasses. When sin entered the world...no impact. They can see in the dark. They understand more & know more. The love God with ALL their being. The believe they are more able. They instinctively know the way to Heaven.
Your "accusations" are so blatantly erroneous you should be ashamed.
Why then were you able to choose better ?
Why did you?
quote:
Why do others NOT choose Christ ?
Some are fools who reject the Truth that God even exists. Some recognize that God exists, but they just aren't interested in seeking Him. Some simply chose to worship other gods, just as Joshua 24:15 speaks of.
quote:
Do you have better equipment ?
No, God created ALL MEN to seek Him. Why would you think so?
quote:
Do you possess greater understanding ?
No. God has made evident to everyone His existence, so that men would seek Him. In fact, this Truth has been clearly seen by everyone, so that no one has any excuse for not seeking Him.
quote:
Are you somehow favored by God ?
Given your particular theology, that is just a hoot!
quote:
It certainly appears so...
Only to one who doesn't understand very much.
quote:
You succeeded where other men failed !
No one has any excuse to "fail". Or do you disagree?
quote:
Does God bless you more than other men ?
If you are interested in God's plan for who He blesses and who He punishes, just read Isa 1:19,20.
quote:
How were you able to make a better decision ?
From my freedom to choose between the options available, just as you did.
quote:
What prompted you to choose Christ ?
My realization that I was a sinner going to hell and that Christ died for me.
quote:
Why did God NOT give this to the condemned ?
You silly. He created everyone to seek Him. Further, He made Himself evident to everyone, so that no one has has any excuse for not seeking Him. So, your question is rather foolish.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 11:18:14 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7663
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
The text applies to everyone.
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
KJB, your interpretation is absurd. Maybe your feet were swift to shed blood, as well as your mother's, and father's, and sibling's, but mine never were, as is the case in most of the human race.
Guess God made you special then ?
Again, a rather odd question from one who believes in calvin's election!
quote:
Jesus says anger equals murder.
Paul's quote from the OT wasn't speaking of anger, but rather actual murder.
quote:
Matthew 5:21-22 (King James Version)
21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Was this principle in effect during the OT?
You are just trying to divert attention away from the pickle you all are in.
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