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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 11:45:37 PM
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Carico
Posts: 532
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
FG,
You never answered my questions concerning being created to love God.
Are you saying man is not created for that which he is commanded to do?
Are you saying that God did not create man to love Him?
If man was not created by God to love Him, why does God command man to love Him?
Why is it that the whole of the Law is wrapped up in this one command and God did not make man to love Him?
I am interested to hear back from you.
The Bible clearly declared that God created mankind [to seek Him. Do you know of any verses that also declare that God created mankind to love Him?
God's ultimate command - the command that is the essense of all His commands - is to love Him. God does not command us to do that which we are not created to do. I don't think so. That would not be just. I think God's ultimate command to us - to love Him with all of our being - shows that he created us to love Him.
What do you think? Do you think that God commands us to do that which we were created to do?
or
Do you think that God commands us to do that which we were not created to do?
What do you think FG?
The only way we can do what God commands is if God gives us the power to do it by His Holy Spirit. Period. Only God can love perfectly. So only God's power can give us the ability to love others the way He loves us. Our sinful nature cannot do that because our sinful nature is completely selfish. "Everything good comes from above." Everything. Nothing good comes from our sinful nature. Nothing.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 11:48:38 PM
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Sola37
Posts: 18
Joined: 7/19/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
A man has 5 teenage children. He specifically warned them never to go near the frozen lake during the winter as the ice could break. One day, he hears screams for help and discovers all 5 of them have fallen thru the ice and are in danger of drowning in freezing water. Using a rope, he offers rescue to the first child, and saves him. But then decides to let the other four children drown without offering them the rope.
Sola…you’re approaching the issue with human emotions and I don’t think we understand the mind of God. God tells us that His ways are not our ways.
Bob
Yet God uses the illustration of a fathers love over and over in Scripture , and also a husbands love, all in effort to communicate the kind of love He has for us. "Husbands love your wives as Christ loves the Church". Sounds to me like we can know EXACTLY the kind of love God has in His heart.
Why is Gods love so mysterious to the Calvinist ?
Why would God not want us to understand His love ? I suppose as a Calvinist you are greatly confused as to why God would love you enough to save you, but not offer salvation to most other people. I know I would be confused (if I were a Calvinist)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 11:55:06 PM
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Carico
Posts: 532
Joined: 8/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sola37
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
A man has 5 teenage children. He specifically warned them never to go near the frozen lake during the winter as the ice could break. One day, he hears screams for help and discovers all 5 of them have fallen thru the ice and are in danger of drowning in freezing water. Using a rope, he offers rescue to the first child, and saves him. But then decides to let the other four children drown without offering them the rope.
Sola…you’re approaching the issue with human emotions and I don’t think we understand the mind of God. God tells us that His ways are not our ways.
Bob
Yet God uses the illustration of a fathers love over and over in Scripture , and also a husbands love, all in effort to communicate the kind of love He has for us. "Husbands love your wives as Christ loves the Church". Sounds to me like we can know EXACTLY the kind of love God has in His heart.
Why is Gods love so mysterious to the Calvinist ?
Why would God not want us to understand His love ? I suppose as a Calvinist you are greatly confused as to why God would love you enough to save you, but not offer salvation to most other people. I know I would be confused (if I were a Calvinist)
Actually, it's the other way around. You cannot understand God's love until you understand His sovereignty and his wrath. But Arminians want to tell God how he should love.  So read the parable of the worker in MT. 20 to see that the employer, not the employees decide who gets hired and who gets fired.  But just like the workers in that parable, Arminians think that everybody should be treated the same. Not so, says Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 11:58:18 PM
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Carico
Posts: 532
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Do Arminians understand; "He who wants to be first will be last?" Or not? 
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 12:10:00 AM
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Sola37
Posts: 18
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Why would God repeatedly use human emotions (father to children, husband to wife) to illustrate His own love if we were not meant to understand ? Jesus even uses a hens love for her chicks as an example. A child could understand this kind of love and the illustrations the Bible uses - Yet Calvinists say "You cant understand the love of God" and when faced with the absurdity of the logical end of Calvinism, they basically have no other answer.
You guys are seriously missing the mark. God most definitely wants us to understand His love. The ultimate demonstration of His love was His death on the cross for ALL of mankind, not just a few. That is the Gospel message : God so loved the WORLD that WHOSOEVER believes
Why another Christian would want to twist the simple and beautiful meaning of that Gospel into something else is beyond my comprehension. Why anyone would want to try and limit Gods love or to limit the atonement of the Cross to only a select few people is , frankly, at best, insane, and at worst, plain evil.
< Message edited by Sola37 -- 7/25/2008 2:29:37 AM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 5:57:25 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3754
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
It was God's plan that Jesus die on the cross, no doubt. Does this mean that Judas didn't make a choice? Not at all. Jesus was in town and wasn't hiding out. The authorities would have found Him without help. Oh, Judas chose alright; but, the point is could he have chosen otherwise? The answer is "no" because God ordained it to happen precisely as it happened. We can even see the OT prophecy concerning Judas. God didn't just throw the Crucifixion up in the air for it to fall heads or tails. He says Christ was "delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God,"
quote:
God's plan, I believe, in this passage, refers to His plan for what His Son would do, rather than everyone else in Jerusalem. No, the passage makes it evident that it is the action of the Father - not the Son.
quote:
quote:
OT believers were saved precisely as NT believers are. When they are given a new heart[regeneration] they will seek God in the manner He commands - with all their heart. Alright, I lost you. How could Old Testament people have been saved precisely as New Testament people are? If that is the case, why did Jesus Christ need to suffer and die, or even come in the flesh at all? We are told Christ is "the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world." We are also told that God named all believers "before the foundation of the world". It is generally said the efficacy of His sacrifice looks back upon all OT saints and forward to all NT saints. Since it is the plan of God, it could happen no other way than how He determined it would.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 5:59:18 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3754
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
They did not all have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That would condemn every OT saint to hell because we are told:
Rom 8:9 .....Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
quote:
We learn that from acts. Not until the day of Pentecost did everyone that became Christians receive the Holy Spirit. The Apostles were saved before Pentecost which means the Holy Spirit indwelled them. What happened at Pentecost is the fulfillment of the promise of Jesus that He would baptize with the Spirit. There was definitely a change made at Pentecost but it was not a change in the nature of salvation. It had to do with the extent of God's salvation program.
Before Pentecost, only a few people believed and only a few were qualified to be prophets - to declare God's Word. But beginning at Pentecost, because the Holy Spirit was "poured out" there was to be an explosion of believers(3000 one day) and each believer was to be mandated and qualified to bring the Gospel. No change in the nature of salvation but a change in the extent.
quote:
Show me anywhere in the OT where it said any of the OT saints were born again. The Holy Spirit did come up on some of them but it always left, True, the OT didn't use "born again"; but, I don't think we find those specific words used of anyone in the NT either. What evidence do you have that the Holy Spirit ALWAYS left them? You're correct the Spirit came upon all sorts of people to do God's will - just as He does today.
Noah found grace in the eyes of God. Without the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit this is impossible "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD."
quote:
They also did not go to heaven they went to paradise/Abraham's bosom there is a difference in Paradise and heaven. There is no difference between paradise and heaven, they are one-in-the-same.
Paradise is heaven where God is; and, where Jesus' spirit went - just as did the spirit of the thief.
Christ said He(His spirit) was going to the Father(Luke 23:46).
Christ said the thief would be with Him in paradise(Luke 23:43).
Christ said the Father is in heaven(Mat 6:9; 16:17).
God is in paradise (Rev 2:7).
Paul was caught up into the third heaven which is paradise (2Cor 12:2,4).
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 8:19:33 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2320
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sola37
You guys are seriously missing the mark. God most definitely wants us to understand His love. The ultimate demonstration of His love was His death on the cross for ALL of mankind, not just a few. That is the Gospel message : God so loved the WORLD that WHOSOEVER believes
Why another Christian would want to twist the simple and beautiful meaning of that Gospel into something else is beyond my comprehension. Why anyone would want to try and limit Gods love or to limit the atonement of the Cross to only a select few people is , frankly, at best, insane, and at worst, plain evil.
Not according to the FULL counsel of God.
You have the cart before the horse, and
you are just sharing what you were taught-
More words from Jesus...
John 6:37 (King James Version)
37All that the Father giveth me
shall come to me; and him that cometh
to me I will in no wise cast out.
Clearly God has given souls to Jesus.
These are the ones that will come.
These are the whosoevers. They ALL come.
Or give us your rendering of the verse.
John 6:44 (King James Version)
44No man can come to me, except
the Father which hath sent me draw him:
and I will raise him up at the last day.
NO ONE can come...EXCEPT...
The ones (chosen by God) God draws.
No other ones will or can come. God's work.
Again, give us your rendering of theis verse.
John 6:65 (King James Version)
65And he said, Therefore said I unto you,
that no man can come unto me, except it
were given unto him of my Father.
God gives to some (NOT ALL) the ability to
come to His Son. And it is GIVEN by God.
And your rendering is what precisely ?
John 10:29 (King James Version)
29My Father, which gave them me,
is greater than all; and no man is able
to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
God GAVE the souls to Jesus.
Where does man's choice come in ?
_____________________________
Lay siege to your sins, and starve them out, by keeping away the food and fuel which is their maintenance and life. (Baxter)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 8:24:57 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2320
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
Good point, Bob. God draws all who are seeking Him.
Nice try FG... 
Bob
Here's a problem verse for the "seekers"
John 9:39 (King James Version)
39And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into
this world, that they which see not might see;
and that they which see might be made blind.
_____________________________
Lay siege to your sins, and starve them out, by keeping away the food and fuel which is their maintenance and life. (Baxter)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 8:26:32 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2320
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood
quote:
KJB, your interpretation is absurd.
Yeah......I think he was writing about Thai kick boxers.
KJB
Or a careless butcher...
_____________________________
Lay siege to your sins, and starve them out, by keeping away the food and fuel which is their maintenance and life. (Baxter)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 8:49:04 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1372
Joined: 12/2/2006
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Sola37,
quote:
Question for the Calvinists:
A man has 5 teenage children. He specifically warned them never to go near the frozen lake during the winter as the ice could break. One day, he hears screams for help and discovers all 5 of them have fallen thru the ice and are in danger of drowning in freezing water. Using a rope, he offers rescue to the first child, and saves him. But then decides to let the other four children drown without offering them the rope.
What are your thoughts of the man ?
You are told to love your wife and your children.
You are actually commanded to love even your enemies.
God is not commanded to love sinners. Who is it that commands Him to do so?
God is not commanded to love anyone and this includes His enemies.
He is not obligated to love me, my wife, and/or my children.
There is no great mystical and supreme power or force of the universe that commands God to do anything.
He is not obligated to love His enemies.
If He loves an enemy it is because He has shown mercy to His enemy.
It is not as if He is under regulation by the United Nations or some other compiled mass of human beings to judge and declare what He should and should not do and hold Him accountable.
He put King Davids child to death and God is good.
He drowned the entire earth and He is good.
He does as He pleases among the inhabitants of heaven and earth and no one can stop Him.
"All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'
And He is good.
He is good even if He threw no rope.
He is good even if He cast the rope around their necks and hung them all from some planet.
He is also good if He saves only one out of millions.
He is also good if He saves millions out of millions.
You are commanded love even your enemies.
You have no command over God and our opinions do not rule over Him.
The LORD has established His throne in the heavens, And His sovereignty rules over all.
Is God unjust?
Not at all!
13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us?
For who resists his will?"
20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?
I am starting to think that the main problem with Arminian and free-will doctrine is that they have never had a full grasp of sin.
The true basic foundation has never been set in their minds and they build gigantic doctrines on a foundation that is not even correct.
The foundation starts with........"we by nature are children of wrath".
If He pours out eternal wrath on children of wrath how is that wrong?
God owes children of wrath exactly that........HIS WRATH.
Arminians and free-willers seem to start out thinking sin and the sin nature really isnt so bad and people are basically good enough to deserve love, eternal rewards....and all sorts of wonderful blessings.
They seem to start out with the idea that God is evil if He does not bless everybody with live and kindness.
They seem to think sin is bad.......but not enough to merit wrath.
They seem to think everybody is deserving of life ropes and life jackets as God owes all these sinners eternal life and eternal bliss in His eternal paradise.
The first and foremost thing they need to understand is God does nothing wrong by not saving some sinful child of wrath.
God does no wrong even if He does not offer to save sinful children of wrath.
It does not matter the causes or lack of causes in the grand picture. God is not required to bring anybody into His paradise and that certainly includes those with a sinful nature no matter how or where they got it from.
That is my 2 cents.
KJB
_____________________________
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 8:57:13 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1372
Joined: 12/2/2006
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Sola37,
quote:
Yet God uses the illustration of a fathers love over and over in Scripture , and also a husbands love, all in effort to communicate the kind of love He has for us. "Husbands love your wives as Christ loves the Church". Sounds to me like we can know EXACTLY the kind of love God has in His heart.
God gives illustrations both ways.
This is what was commanded to Israel;
Exodus 21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
Exodus 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
Leviticus 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
This should be a clear illustration of how severe sin is.
Do you think that for some reason sinners deserve better than that from a Holy God?
KJB
_____________________________
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 10:21:53 AM
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Carico
Posts: 532
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sola37
Why would God repeatedly use human emotions (father to children, husband to wife) to illustrate His own love if we were not meant to understand ? Jesus even uses a hens love for her chicks as an example. A child could understand this kind of love and the illustrations the Bible uses - Yet Calvinists say "You cant understand the love of God" and when faced with the absurdity of the logical end of Calvinism, they basically have no other answer.
You guys are seriously missing the mark. God most definitely wants us to understand His love. The ultimate demonstration of His love was His death on the cross for ALL of mankind, not just a few. That is the Gospel message : God so loved the WORLD that WHOSOEVER believes
Why another Christian would want to twist the simple and beautiful meaning of that Gospel into something else is beyond my comprehension. Why anyone would want to try and limit Gods love or to limit the atonement of the Cross to only a select few people is , frankly, at best, insane, and at worst, plain evil.
Sola, if God allowed us to be perfect then we wouldn't rely on God for a thing. We would rely on ourselves forever and thus couldn't have eternal life because "flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven."
So God needs to humble us so we'll turn only to Him for life. He thus allows Satan to entice us so we understand why we need God. We can't have fellowship with God if we don't think we need him. So God did indeed create humans to have fellowship with Him but the only way he can do that is to show us that we are not as perfect as he is because we didn't create the universe. That's why Romans 11:32 tells us; "For God bound all men over to disobedience so he can have mercy on them all."
And we are not twisting the bible. We believe Romans 9;11-25 John 6:44, Romans 8:20, Matthew 22;14 exactly as written and Arminians don't because they want to believe what their itching ears want to hear.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 10:53:26 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1517
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: online
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FG,
quote:
quote:
So, why don’t you respond to the overwhelming proof that was presented to you that Paul quotes the OT to prove, validate and confirm the truth that “all are under sin”?
I've already agreed that he did. What you must now do is face the fact that v.10-12 do NOT speak of every single person in history, unless you want to to claim that v.13-18 ALSO speak of every single person in history. Remember, if you do, then you are making the wild claim that every person in history "shed innocent blood".
You are admitting that,
“There is none righteous”
is quoted to prove
“all [are] under sin”
But you are also saying the use of the phrase “there is none” in verses 10-12 are not referring to the “all” in verse 9. You are saying that not all of the "all under sin" are part of the "none righteous," "none who understands," and "none who seeks God."
By your interpretation Paul would have written,
“all are under sin”
“as it is written”
“some are not righteous, not one of the some that are not righteous are righteous, no, not one of them; some do not understand, there are some who do not seek God. Some have turned aside, together these alone [the few that have turned aside] have become useless; there are some who do not do good, there are none of those who do not do good that do any good. Some of their throats are an open grave, with some of their tongues they keep deceiving, the poison of asps is under some of their lips; some of them have mouths that are full of cursing and bitterness; some of their feet are swift to shed blood, destruction and misery are in some of their paths, and the path of peace some of them have not known.”
Your interpretation assumes that there are some who seek God. In other words you believe that only some of the “all under sin” are those who do not seek God and therefore there are some that do seek God. If that were true, then there are some of the “all under sin” who are not righteous and therefore there are some who are righteous.
Righteous sinners? – now there is an oxymoron. That is a “wild claim” as you put it.
Some sinners have not turned aside? I thought turning aside was sin.
Some sinners know the path of peace? Some sinners know peace with God and the peace of God? I don’t think so.
The OT quotes as written by the apostle in no way show types of sinners. The wording does not go along with that foreign thought. The passage must be taken as written and any difficulties dealt with in the context of the overall section in which the passage is found.
The “there is none righteous” is referring to “all under sin.” Of the all who are under sin, there are none righteous, no not one of them who is under sin is righteous. Of the all who are under sin, there are none who seeks for God; not one of those who are under sin seeks for God.
< Message edited by SureHope -- 7/25/2008 11:13:13 AM >
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 1:28:40 PM
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umcbee
Posts: 1658
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
I am starting to think that the main problem with Arminian and free-will doctrine is that they have never had a full grasp of sin.
The true basic foundation has never been set in their minds and they build gigantic doctrines on a foundation that is not even correct.
The foundation starts with........"we by nature are children of wrath".
If He pours out eternal wrath on children of wrath how is that wrong?
God owes children of wrath exactly that........HIS WRATH.
Arminians and free-willers seem to start out thinking sin and the sin nature really isnt so bad and people are basically good enough to deserve love, eternal rewards....and all sorts of wonderful blessings.
They seem to start out with the idea that God is evil if He does not bless everybody with live and kindness.
They seem to think sin is bad.......but not enough to merit wrath.
They seem to think everybody is deserving of life ropes and life jackets as God owes all these sinners eternal life and eternal bliss in His eternal paradise.
The first and foremost thing they need to understand is God does nothing wrong by not saving some sinful child of wrath.
God does no wrong even if He does not offer to save sinful children of wrath.
It does not matter the causes or lack of causes in the grand picture. God is not required to bring anybody into His paradise and that certainly includes those with a sinful nature no matter how or where they got it from.
That is my 2 cents.
Well.........you have just proven what FG has been telling you all along...........that you really don't understand the free choice view period .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 1:33:18 PM
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umcbee
Posts: 1658
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
I - will draw all men unto me - After I shall have died and risen again, by the preaching of my word and the influence of my Spirit, I shall attract and illuminate both Jews and Gentiles.
Bob
What happened to the "all men" ?
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 1:50:52 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1776
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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All kinds of men umcbee. All races colors and creeds. 
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 1:58:34 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1905
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I'm as interested as she is about your explanations of why man is accountable to God since God created man unable to do what God asks of him.
SH: My response to her is public, you can read it if you want.
FG: in my comment here, you indicated you would answer her if she asked. Now you seem to suggest that you have already done so. If so, which post # was it? Thanks.
The post is 31950. You have started debating it I think, I will follow the debate , as well as offer my own comment next.
I am very grateful for all the our respectful C campers answers, I just don’t get it. Gladly put the blame squarely on myself.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 2:07:34 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1905
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
My point is man is without excuse for his sin because God has made Himself evident to all through the means of His creation. In the light of this, man has chosen to dishonor God in his sin; he suppresses the truth in and by his unrighteousness. This suppression of truth could be considered willful unbelief, which is the essence of sin.
I make a distinction between 1. unbelieving (or suppressing the truth) that which God has made evident of Himself in creation and 2. not believing (rejecting) the gospel.
I don’t see it yet, honestly.
See, I understand Rom 1 as God made himself evident to all While i see that we are responsible for sinning because we are physically able to not sin.
But
Rom 1… Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made…While claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes.
that appears as if we are held responsible for not honoring God, but worshipping idols(anything that is creature over the creator) I am not sure I have an opinion on all this got to study this more. FG or anybody from Fw camp, feel free to get involved. Re: responsibility in Rom 1.
quote:
Obviously God thinks that man has the equipment to honor Him, for He holds man responsible for not honoring Him.
That is were I disagree with C view - it does as i get it, say we don’t have the equipment. Until regenerated (born from the Spirit) we are unable. All the worship, honor, etc that we can give God is pointless without that extra piece of equipment.
Sort of like we can switch the 10 gear bike to 10th gear, but not to 11th or 12th. We are not given that by the creator of the bike. To demand from us to go into 12 gear the manufacturer has to give it to us first. To demand from us to exercise the belief we have to be capable of exercising that belief. And C view holds it that we don’t.
quote:
I wish I had more time to think this through and write more concisely (very busy time of the year for me). appreciate the help I have a relative here who is in contstruction/roofing, same thing -i said: email updated pics of yourself, so your kids remember what you look like :)
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 7:19:31 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1372
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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umcbee,
quote:
Well.........you have just proven what FG has been telling you all along...........that you really don't understand the free choice view period .
Hardly.
Free-willers and Arminians have a hard time understanding sin.
Sin is AWAY from God.
Sin is not TOWARDS God.
Sinning is not seeking God.
Sin is seeking sin.
Having a sin nature is NOT a good thing at all.
I understand that people are born locked into a sinful nature and not a free nature. They cant escape that and it is not something I wrestle with as I know it is just the ways things are.
All those people that cannot freely-choose not to sin will be held accountable for their sin unless they are forgiven.
How this nature started....where it came from.....main causes.....primary causes.......secondary causes.....who everybody would like to blame.....did the devil make me do it......etc etc.......are all TRIVIAL to the fact that people cannot freely shake off this sinful nature they have and each one will be held by God for their sins even if they think, moan, groan, complain, and whine that they feel it is unfair.
If people are already so free.......what did Jesus come to set people free from.......their freedom?
KJB
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For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 7:41:22 PM
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umcbee
Posts: 1658
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
All kinds of men umcbee. All races colors and creeds.
Bob
If it means "all kinds of men" , then why didn't the Holy Spirit say "all kinds of men" ?
I don't think Scripture ever uses the term "all kinds of men" ; I can't for the life of me find it in Scripture .
Surely the Holy Spirit is able to discern between "all men" and "all kinds of men" .
I rather believe that it points back to the ole reformed cop-out of the secret decoder ring that only the Calvinist has for discerning just what the Spirit meant when He said ALL .
There is absolutely nothing in the text nor context of that nor any other Scripture that could steer one to reach the conclusion of "all kinds of men" except the typical Calvinist presupposition of "all kinds of men" to self-support a presupposed doctrine .
Carico would absolutely screw your hide to the wall for such an outlandish interpretatoin as that if he weren't a Calvinist .
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kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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