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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 8:57:40 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 312
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Reformists, in your opinion what does it take for a person to get to heaven? Do you believe one day you are just walking along and Boom your saved? You can't say you repented or even believed because that would be something you are doing.
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 9:04:38 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrcae,
For me to give an understandable response to your post number 31951, I think you would have to learn to understand the definitions and uses of words and terms such as;
Light, evil, nature, sin, effect, created, fail, comprehend, seek, evident, existence, power, nature, attributes, no one, excuse, hostile, etc.......
How can we dialogue when you cant even claim that to believe in Jesus Christ is a good thing to do?
I've agreed that believing in Christ is a good thing to do.
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How can we dialogue when you make distinctions such as right and wrong as being so completely different from good and evil?
Because they are different.
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How can we dialogue when you dont even see sin and evil as being the same sort of thing?
I guess we can't.
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How can we dialogue when I tell you I was not seeking God and you claim that I was?
You just won't admit it. You found Him. You were aware of the existence of God. Maybe in your childhood you were interested, and just forgot. Who cares? The point is this: God made sure the gospel was presented to you, and you believed.
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How can we dialogue when most of the time all you do is accuse people of not understanding anything of your POV and Scripture text when we ALL have so much free-will to understand it all?
I'm glad you noticed that "most of the time" I have to correct the misunderstand of the reformists. btw, free will has zero to do with understanding anything. Why would you think so?
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I think it is you that does not understand that from our POV, we really do understand your POV.
If so, how come when I paraphrase on the pov of the reformed, I don't get "corrected", as I have to do with all the reformists who repeatedly misunderstand and mischaracterize my pov.
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So......I really dont know how I would even begin to answer your post.
I didn't think you would want to.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 9:07:43 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
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I believe you have misunderstood me, and it seems you have made some bad inferences as a result.
At no time in my response did I say "always" or "all the time". My statement is that without the Spirit, I couldn't do any of these things ever. With the Spirit, I can. Sure I slip up, but I can actually do them.
Perhaps there is misunderstandings on both sides.
Calvinism doesn't teach that men never seek God. That would be crazy.
I agree. But I suggest you check out the posts of KJB, Manna, and kelman, who have been constantly attacking my pov that man can and does seek God. You know, FG, for one who is always accusing everyone of "not paying attention" - you ought to heed your own "advice".
Had you "paid attention" you would have seen that I've said man CAN seek God; but, man canNOT seek God the way God commands - with his whole heart.
Right. Man CAN, but man canNOT. Sure.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 9:12:57 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1784
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
Reformists, in your opinion what does it take for a person to get to heaven? Do you believe one day you are just walking along and Boom your saved? You can't say you repented or even believed because that would be something you are doing.
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:5
Everyone is born again in the same fashion…we hear and believe the word (water), we repent and we are born again by the Spirit.
That is why we are commissioned to preach the word to the world…even the elect must hear and accept. You don’t just wake up one morning being saved.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 9:17:13 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Anyone who suppresses the Truth or ignores that Truth is a fool. I agree heartily. And, all mankind has "suppressed or ignored the Truth" - that's what Paul says.
Would you be so kind as to tell me the exact verse where he says that "all mankind" has suppressed or ignored the Truth?
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The reason Cornelius did seek God was because God created him to do so, and because God had made Himself evident to everyone. Not so, FG. God has created all to seek Him; and, God has made Himself evident to all - still, not all do. Why?....because God must still do more - He must change the desperately wicked and deceitful above all - heart of man.
The only problem is you have no support for that from Scripture.
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If you want to claim that God regenerated Cornelius prior to Peter giving him the gospel, you need solid support from the text, which you don't have. I'm not "claiming" anything. I said it is possible Cornelius was regenerate early on in Acts 10 or at the very least he was being drawn by God. You are aware you have no "solid support" for your pov? It remains simply that - your pov.
Ha. My support is Acts 10, and I've only noted what the text says.
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You keep ignoring or rejecting my point that because He created mankind to seek Him, and he makes Himself evident to everyone, that is how He is the factor in why people believe. Those things are the HOW in the drawing work of God toward mankind. Obviously then, we must feel sympathy for such a poor god who draws and draws and draws...with so little to show for it.
Why any sympathy? Remember that no one has any excuse for not recognizing, honoring God and being thankful to Him, per Rom 1.
Why would you want to sympathize with someone who has NO EXCUSE? That makes no sense at all.
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Your pov is that God drags people to Him. You have no support. Should I inform you of the obvious?....that you are not “paying attention” when you say that. Should I inform you that you are mischaracterizing my pov?....nah, no need to….you know you are.
I'm not. It is the calvinists who understand "helkuo" only as drag. You need to pay attention.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 9:25:31 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: kelman
Rather, what is nonsensical is the belief God simply "allows" events to unfold while He remains aloof and non-involved....nonsensical and non-scriptural.
Your assumption that the FW pov is that God allows events while remaining aloof and non-involved is silly and erroneous. Why can't you accept the fact that God CAN allow events to occur while being very interested and involved? You can't have it both ways. A God that is "interested" in man; but, doesn't ever involved Himself with the events of mankind.
I consider the FACT that He created mankind to seek Him, AND the FACT that He has made evident Himself to man surely demonstrates His interest in man. Further, from the life of Cornelius, we see that He continued to provide further divine Truth to Cornelius. How is that not involvement?
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It is only nonsensical to the free will mind. Man makes choices according to his nature and other determining factors. These determining factors are always determined by God's eternal decree.
btw, one of God's "determining factors" is that He created mankind to seek Him. So that means that man's nature includes that ability.  I haven't said otherwise. Man can seek God, man can have faith, man can repent of some sins...man can do plenty....none of which will get him saved, though.
The Bible contradicts you. You agree that man can have faith, which I will take as "to believe". I'm sure you know what God does when man believes; He grants eternal life.
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Besides which, apart from the Holy Spirit the natural man chooses "darkness" because as Scripture tells us "and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."
Again, the reformed insist that "men" always means "each and every one", while also insisting that "all men" only means "all kinds of men". Why is that?  Huh?...where do you get that from? The definition of "men" or "all men" is determined by their context and other relevant scripture.
I get that from the response of the reformists when ALL of the Scriptures that speak of whom Christ died for and include the words "all men", "everyone", "whole world" are ALLways defined as only "all kinds of men", even though there is no contextual reason to understand them that way.
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If man was so "able", what need would there be for the Holy Spirit?.....it would appear - none. Do you agree or disagree that God created mankind to seek Him, which comes from Acts 17:27? Speaking of man the verse says "That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him,.." indicating not all who seek will find.
I've never argued that all will find Him. Why do you keep trying to make that point?
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If you agree, how do you reconcile your pov that man is unable to seek God, then? iow, is God the One who is unable to create His creatures to do what He created them to do? Someone's not "paying attention" again. Man can seek God; but, not all who do will find him. Now, if God regenerates a man - gives him a new heart - man will seek God with all his heart and, of course, will always find Him.
Interesting, but NONE of the verses that promise that those who seek God will find Him have any "preconditions" attached, as you are suggesting.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 9:25:50 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
Reformists, in your opinion what does it take for a person to get to heaven? Do you believe one day you are just walking along and Boom your saved? You can't say you repented or even believed because that would be something you are doing.
What happened to Paul? He not only didn't ask Jesus to come into his life, he was rounding up Christians to be murdered. Jacob actually wrestled with God until God broke Jacob's hip. Moses said; "Who am I Lord?", Jeremiah said, "I am only a child." So most of the OT chosen didn't ask God, they tried to resist God but God's power was too great as Jeremiah tells us in Jeremiah 20:6. To those whom God is drawing, he not only gives us the desire for God, he creates circumstances in our lives to bring us to repentance. "He who falls on the capstone will be broken in pieces. But he upon whom it falls will be crushed." After all, it's God who leads us out of temptation and delivers us from evil, not we ourselves. 
1 Corinthians 1;28-29 tells us that God chooses the despised, the lowly things of the world, not the wise, "learned" and arrogant so that no one can boast before him.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 9:38:00 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
Good way to change the subject FG. Do you agree with what is glaringly clear or not? I say again, if you cannot admit to something so fundamental, how can we discuss that which rests on the foundation?
"Change the subject???" Why don't you answer my question? If you want Rom 3:10-12 to refer to everyone in the human race, you have to accept that v.13-18 ALSO refers to everyone in the human race. Do you accept that?
Since the train of thought the apostle uses – seen in his words and syntax – we know that Paul is quoting the OT scriptures to validate to the Jews that all are under sin. This is a fact that has been abundantly proven and which you have chosen to disregard.
This is why I say you are trying to change the subject. Since the way Paul uses the phrase “as it is written” shows us without a doubt that he is quoting the OT to prove his point that all are under sin, the problems that arise from the details of the quotes are secondary. In other words, to infer that the OT quotes nullify how he introduced the quotes is backwards thinking.
I've not changed the subject. In fact, I am trying to get you to face the fact that v.10-18 are ALL quotes from the OT, to demonstrate the different ways man sins. But, do you claim that each verse speaks of each and every human being, as you claim for v.10-12?
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You stated, "Your linking 'as it is written' to the previous verse is a serious error" Which I have shown to be quite the opposite. Do you see that? Or do you still hold to your position that “as it is written” does not tie what went before with the biblical quote that comes after? Is this still in your mind, “serious error”? I think you would have a hard time defending that in the light of the way “as it is written” is used in the Bible, which I have abundantly proved (see post 31890).
Just answer the question: do you claim that each of the verses quoted specifically refer to each and every human?
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So, why don’t you respond to the overwhelming proof that was presented to you that Paul quotes the OT to prove, validate and confirm the truth that “all are under sin”?
I've already agreed that he did. What you must now do is face the fact that v.10-12 do NOT speak of every single person in history, unless you want to to claim that v.13-18 ALSO speak of every single person in history. Remember, if you do, then you are making the wild claim that every person in history "shed innocent blood".
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iow, he is describing the various ways men sin. Here they are:
v.10-12 not seeking God = fools
v.13 turning away, and not doing good = not repentant
v.14 mouths full of cursing and bitterness = no grace or gentleness
v.15 violence and murder
v.16 ruinous and miserable lives
v.17 not peaceful
v.18 no fear of God in their eyes
Now, do you defend your position that this list describes everyone individually in the human race, or are you willing to admit that Paul has given us a list of various kinds of evil and sin that men do, as examples of how men are sinful?
I am more than willing to affirm that Paul was consistent in the use of “as it is written” to show that his assertion “all are under sin” is abundantly proven in the scriptures. I can discuss the details of the OT quotes after we establish what you believe concerning why Paul quoted them. Before that is established anything else is a waste of time.
His point as I already pointed out in my previous post, was to demonstrate the various ways man is sinful. But, your claim has been that 3:10-12 speaks of everyone in history. If you still want to claim that, then you must also include v.13-18 as refering to everyone in history. Are you prepared to do that?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 9:40:40 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
The text applies to everyone.
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
KJB, your interpretation is absurd. Maybe your feet were swift to shed blood, as well as your mother's, and father's, and sibling's, but mine never were, as is the case in most of the human race.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 9:49:05 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrcae,
For me to give an understandable response to your post number 31951, I think you would have to learn to understand the definitions and uses of words and terms such as;
Light, evil, nature, sin, effect, created, fail, comprehend, seek, evident, existence, power, nature, attributes, no one, excuse, hostile, etc..
A big hurdle in talking with A-folk is the peacock-like prancing they practice.
Manna, are you not paying attention again? You know that I'm not one of the "A-folk".
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They say God made them better..They don't type that, but it is there. Why would I dare make such an accusation ?
You've made no accusation. What you have done would be better described as a lie by your phrase "they say...". Then you admit none have typed that, so you simply accuse us of thinking that way. I believe that could be called the sin of judging others.
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They are better choosers. They see more. They aren't dead in sin, or trespasses. When sin entered the world...no impact. They can see in the dark. They understand more & know more. The love God with ALL their being. The believe they are more able. They instinctively know the way to Heaven.
Your "accusations" are so blatantly erroneous you should be ashamed.
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The C crowd is quick to say "stinky sinner" about himself
With posts like this, why not?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 9:54:22 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
This is another area where non-reformists contradict themselves and the bible. Since they don't believe in election (which is all over the bible),
To be accurate, we surely do NOT believe in the reformist's definition of election. But, you are totally wrong to claim that we don't believe in election. That is nothing more than a cheap smear.
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they have to find some way to claim that man is righteous on his own which is not only unbiblical, but it is self-righteousness which negates the need for the Holy Spirit and the cross.
Again, nothing more than a cheap smear. We non-reformists recognize that God credits His righteousness to those who believe, as Gen 15:6 clearly states.
Why are you so eager to make such erroneous statements?
Let me ask you: does your strong tendency to smear others part of the fruit of the Spirit, or does it come from the lusts of the flesh?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 9:57:39 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
Do you admit the error of your statement, “Your linking 'as it is written' to the previous verse is a serious error" or do you still hold to that view?
FG will do a fine job of answering this ; but I have an opinion : when Paul states "as it is written" , he is not refering to what he had just written , but to what was written in the OT .
If I have misunderstood how you are using it (to refer to what Paul had just written) , I apologize in advance .
I think you have misunderstood how I am using it. Yes, he is obviously referring to what was written in the OT. FG was trying to disconnect "all under sin" with the OT quotes.
Not at all. I was disconnecting the "all under sin" with just v.10-12 referring to everyone in the human race. What do you do with v.13-18?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 10:00:10 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
FG,
You never answered my questions concerning being created to love God.
Are you saying man is not created for that which he is commanded to do?
Are you saying that God did not create man to love Him?
If man was not created by God to love Him, why does God command man to love Him?
Why is it that the whole of the Law is wrapped up in this one command and God did not make man to love Him?
I am interested to hear back from you.
The Bible clearly declared that God created mankind [to seek Him. Do you know of any verses that also declare that God created mankind to love Him?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 10:02:01 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
There are a lot of negatives in that question, but I'll try and answer it. Man sins because it is in his nature to do so. I haven't ever denied that, that I can remember. If I did, it was unintentional. I simply don't agree that this nature includes the inability to look for a way out of the bondage of sin.
How does one dead in sin, walking in the flesh, apart from the Spirit, unable to understand the things of the Spirit, even know they are in the bondage of sin?
The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 10:04:27 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
No of course not, but everyone has the opportunity.
100% correct but not everyone is drawn…there is a difference.
Bob
Good point, Bob. God draws all who are seeking Him.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 10:22:36 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
No of course not, but everyone has the opportunity.
100% correct but not everyone is drawn…there is a difference.
Bob
Good point, Bob. God draws all who are seeking Him.
Notice that he said that not everyone is being drawn just like Jesus says. 
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 10:38:44 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1441
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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FreeGrace,
quote:
I've agreed that believing in Christ is a good thing to do.
A good thing to do. Thanks for the clarification.
Believers are saved and un-believers are not.
Most Christians claim they have been saved by grace which means they did nothing at all to merit salvation. That means they did not DO something to merit salvation
You obviously merited your salvation by the good thing you did (believing).
I said this;
quote:
How can we dialogue when I tell you I was not seeking God and you claim that I was?
And you respond;
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You just won't admit it.
You found Him.
You were aware of the existence of God.
Maybe in your childhood you were interested, and just forgot. Who cares?
The point is this: God made sure the gospel was presented to you, and you believed.
I just wont admit it?
Who cares? I care.
I would rather stick with the truth in my life story rather than your supposed fantasies.
You insinuate I was seeking God just so it will back up your far fetched fantasy on Cornelius.
Why is it you act as if you were there with me as I went through my life?
You have the nerve to sit there and tell me I dont even know what my own situation was in my own life?
That is funny ha ha funny! 
I told you I was not seeking God and I meant EXACTLY what I said.
Here is what is written in Romans 10;
"I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."
Wow!
Imagine that......God was found by those not seeking Him.
Sure puts a log jam in the free-wheeling (or is that free-willing) sprockets of your Cornelius fantasy.
It does nothing at all to injure my TRUE life story.
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I'm glad you noticed that "most of the time" I have to correct the misunderstand of the reformists. btw, free will has zero to do with understanding anything. Why would you think so?
Thanks again for the wonderful clarification.
The reformed thought all along that free-will had nothing to do with a true understanding of the gospel.......and men are still without excuse.
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If so, how come when I paraphrase on the pov of the reformed, I don't get "corrected", as I have to do with all the reformists who repeatedly misunderstand and mischaracterize my pov.
Maybe it is about time you understand that the reformed do understand your POV and they know it is not Biblical.
The only people you ever claim understand your POV are those that agree with it.
We understand it very well.......but we do not agree with it.
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I didn't think you would want to.
I think you need to know that the reformed understand that Cornelius believed the gospel.
No one EVER debated that.
Acts 13 is clear even though you consistantly distort the text;
all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
The wrong way to read it is;
all those that believed were appointed to eternal life.
So.........we reformed KNOW what happened to Cornelius.
God caused him to believe because Cornelius was saved by grace.
KJB
_____________________________
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 10:49:58 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1441
Joined: 12/2/2006
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FreeGrace,
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood
quote:
KJB, your interpretation is absurd.
Yeah......I think he was writing about Thai kick boxers.
KJB
_____________________________
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 11:19:47 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1784
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
Good point, Bob. God draws all who are seeking Him.
Nice try FG...
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 11:25:28 PM
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Sola37
Posts: 18
Joined: 7/19/2008
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Question for the Calvinists:
A man has 5 teenage children. He specifically warned them never to go near the frozen lake during the winter as the ice could break. One day, he hears screams for help and discovers all 5 of them have fallen thru the ice and are in danger of drowning in freezing water. Using a rope, he offers rescue to the first child, and saves him. But then decides to let the other four children drown without offering them the rope.
What are your thoughts of the man ?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 11:28:09 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sola37
Question for the Calvinists:
A man has 5 teenage children. He specifically warned them never to go near the frozen lake during the winter as the ice could break. One day, he hears screams for help and discovers all 5 of them have fallen thru the ice and are in danger of drowning in freezing water. Using a rope, he offers rescue to the first child, and saves him. But then decides to let the other four children drown without offering them the rope.
What are your thoughts of the man ?
What do you think of a boss who doesn't hire everyone qualified for the job? He has to pick someone for reasons of his own and he has the right to do that. The difference is that the father doesn't know the hearts of his children and God does. Jesus himself says, "I have come to turn; son against father, daughter against mother...a man's enemies will be members of his own household."
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 11:34:46 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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Human reasoning is about me. God's wisdom points us to God. Arminianism is about me. Calvinism is about God. Thus, Arminianism comes from human "wisdom" and Calvinism comes from the wisdom of the Holy Spirit.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 11:35:54 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1784
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
A man has 5 teenage children. He specifically warned them never to go near the frozen lake during the winter as the ice could break. One day, he hears screams for help and discovers all 5 of them have fallen thru the ice and are in danger of drowning in freezing water. Using a rope, he offers rescue to the first child, and saves him. But then decides to let the other four children drown without offering them the rope.
Sola…you’re approaching the issue with human emotions and I don’t think we understand the mind of God. God tells us that His ways are not our ways.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 11:42:45 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1590
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
FG,
You never answered my questions concerning being created to love God.
Are you saying man is not created for that which he is commanded to do?
Are you saying that God did not create man to love Him?
If man was not created by God to love Him, why does God command man to love Him?
Why is it that the whole of the Law is wrapped up in this one command and God did not make man to love Him?
I am interested to hear back from you.
The Bible clearly declared that God | | |
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Of course not because all the Gentiles won't be saved. So the "full number" means a predetermined number of Gentiles that were chosen before the creation of the world as Romans 9:22 confirms. 