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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 2:32:35 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3867
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
Ex 35:28 and spices and oil for the light, for the anointing oil, and for the sweet incense. 29 The children of Israel brought a freewill offering to the LORD, all the men and women whose hearts were willing to bring material for all kinds of work which the LORD, by the hand of Moses, had commanded to be done.
No one has answered the question I have yet. Reformists say that you have to be born again/regenerated before you accept/chose Christ. Then how did Noah, David, etc etc old testament prophets chose God? They were not born again.
The OT saints were saved precisely as NT believers are - by the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. References to the Holy Spirit are varied in the OT. It is said He fills, He comes upon, He dwells within; and, we often see it was temporary simply as a means to fulfill God's will.
Zacharias, Elisabeth, Mary, the mother of Jesus - all on the OT side - were indwelled by the Holy Spirit, they were regenerated, they were born again. And we know David had the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.
quote:
They could not be born again. Their sins were not forgiven, they were postponed. Paul stated that the blood of goat and bulls never cleansed sin. Their/our sins were cleansed by what Christ did on the Cross. So they could not be born again. That is why old testaments saints went to paradise/Abraham's bosom when they died. They could not enter heaven until Christ died on the cross. That is what it is saying about Christ taking captivity captive and when the old testament saints were seem walking among the living. After Christ ascended and so did the OT saints, and now when Christians die they go to heaven. So if you have to born again before you seek God, how did they seek God?
If anyone is not "born again" they are eternally condemned and that includes all people on the OT side of the Cross.
But, of course, all OT saints were, in fact, born again. They ALL had the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.
They ALL entered heaven to be with their Savior when they died.
All mankind was "captive" and Christ led captivity free at the Cross.
At the Cross when some graves opened these saints went into the "holy city". The veil of the Temple was rent, there exists now only ONE holy city - the New Jerusalem - heaven - they went into heaven.
The OT saints sought God with all their hearts because they were born again.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 3:42:10 AM
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Sola37
Posts: 18
Joined: 7/19/2008
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The problem: Most people end up in Hell
The reason:
-Calvinists: God wants it that way. God could save all people but chooses not to.
-Arminian : Man wants it that way. God offers to save all but most freely choose to reject the truth.
That leads to the question :Why?
-Calvinists: Why does God want it that way? Why doesnt He save all if He has the ability to "decree" all people saved?
-Arminians: Why does man want it that way? Why would anyone freely choose Hell over Heaven?
I think one of the keys to understanding this is to realize most people would actually claim to believe in God. There is just so much deception in the world that most people dont have a sincere belief in the truth. They sincerely believe, but they believe a lie. They are comfortable/content in their deception. Jesus said that "many" will say to Him on Judgement Day " Lord Lord" but He will say " I never knew you". That means there are many people who sincerely believe they are saved via Christianity, but the truth is they are not. Same would apply to the false religions. Most have a sincere belief, but its not a sincere belief in the truth. So the real question would be , why are people so comfortable/content in their deception ?
Personally I believe that pride has a lot to do with it, and also the love of sin.
< Message edited by Sola37 -- 7/24/2008 6:19:20 AM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 6:40:52 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1578
Joined: 3/11/2007
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AboundinginHisGrace,
quote:
What do reformists believe is dead? Is it the body, soul, or spirit. The body and soul are much alive, it is the spirit that is dead. So to say that we are dead and not able to seek God doesn't make sense.
Fallen man has the equipment (body and soul) to seek God. Because he is dead to God (dead in spirit) he will not seek God. It is not that fallen man does not have a viable choice because he doesn't have a will that can choose to seek God, but instead he is at enmity with God and will never sincerely seek Him until God makes him alive to Himself (regeneration).
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 6:54:20 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1578
Joined: 3/11/2007
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Sola37,
quote:
Is it safe to say that (according to the Bible) most of the world being on the broad road , and very few being on the narrow road to Heaven is a stumbling block for you ? I understand it is a difficult truth to deal with
How do we explain it ? Who is to blame ? Man or God ?
Hey Sola37, blessings to you.
My 2 cents:
I don't see difficulty in this. As far as immediate cause is concerned, man is to blame for choosing to be on the broad road and God is to be held responsible for any being on the narrow road to heaven.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 7:54:23 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1578
Joined: 3/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
Good way to change the subject FG. Do you agree with what is glaringly clear or not? I say again, if you cannot admit to something so fundamental, how can we discuss that which rests on the foundation?
"Change the subject???" Why don't you answer my question? If you want Rom 3:10-12 to refer to everyone in the human race, you have to accept that v.13-18 ALSO refers to everyone in the human race. Do you accept that?
Since the train of thought the apostle uses – seen in his words and syntax – we know that Paul is quoting the OT scriptures to validate to the Jews that all are under sin. This is a fact that has been abundantly proven and which you have chosen to disregard.
This is why I say you are trying to change the subject. Since the way Paul uses the phrase “as it is written” shows us without a doubt that he is quoting the OT to prove his point that all are under sin, the problems that arise from the details of the quotes are secondary. In other words, to infer that the OT quotes nullify how he introduced the quotes is backwards thinking.
You stated, "Your linking 'as it is written' to the previous verse is a serious error" Which I have shown to be quite the opposite. Do you see that? Or do you still hold to your position that “as it is written” does not tie what went before with the biblical quote that comes after? Is this still in your mind, “serious error”? I think you would have a hard time defending that in the light of the way “as it is written” is used in the Bible, which I have abundantly proved (see post 31890).
So, why don’t you respond to the overwhelming proof that was presented to you that Paul quotes the OT to prove, validate and confirm the truth that “all are under sin”?
quote:
quote:
After seeing the truth about how the NT writers use "as it is written," are you willing to acquiesce to that which is so clear and evident?
I will repeat: Rom 3:10-18 describes different kinds of evil that men do, as an illustration of the fact that all are under sin.
But to claim that only v.10-12 describes everyone, without also accepting v.13-18 as describing everyone, you have no point.
After making the point that everyone is under sin, Paul quotes from 7 OT sources to illustrate how men are sinners. But he is NOT saying that everyone in the human race is guilty of what all those verses say.
iow, he is describing the various ways men sin. Here they are:
v.10-12 not seeking God = fools
v.13 turning away, and not doing good = not repentant
v.14 mouths full of cursing and bitterness = no grace or gentleness
v.15 violence and murder
v.16 ruinous and miserable lives
v.17 not peaceful
v.18 no fear of God in their eyes
Now, do you defend your position that this list describes everyone individually in the human race, or are you willing to admit that Paul has given us a list of various kinds of evil and sin that men do, as examples of how men are sinful?
I am more than willing to affirm that Paul was consistent in the use of “as it is written” to show that his assertion “all are under sin” is abundantly proven in the scriptures. I can discuss the details of the OT quotes after we establish what you believe concerning why Paul quoted them. Before that is established anything else is a waste of time.
Do you disagree with the common use of “as it is written” in the Bible:
statement of truth (first clause)
as it is written (transitional phrase that connects the two clauses – shows that the second clause validates and confirms the first clause)
OT quote to validate the initial statement of truth (second clause)?
Do you admit the error of your statement, “Your linking 'as it is written' to the previous verse is a serious error" or do you still hold to that view?
Once this is established we can move on to understand the quotes themselves.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 8:23:13 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1769
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
quote:
If the reformed interpretation of Romans 3:10 were correct ; I wonder how they can explain Ps 14:4 ? God would have no people for the wicked to eat up if their interpretation were accurate . If there were none that understood and did not seek God , how on earth would God have any of what He calls My People in Ps 14:4 ? How would it be possible for God to be in the generation of the righteous (Ps 14:5) if Ps 14:1-3 was referring to all humanity ?
quote:
No one has said that there are not saved people that are called God's people.
Ro 3:9-20 is referring to all unregenerate mankind.
Free separates this group as being only atheists.
Come on tdd , plenty on the reformed side have stated that Ps 14:1-3 is addressing all humanity .
quote:
Romans 3:14 quotes Ps 10:7 , those in 10:7 are described in 10:1-13 as the wicked , who through the pride of his countenance , will not seek after God .
quote:
If it is by your righteous seeking that you are saved, why do all the free will crowd get so upset when we declare that you teach that God only saves good people?
That is exactly what you are teaching right here.
Where do you see that I have ever stated "righteous seeking" ? What I said is a direct quote of Ps 10:1-13 ; which plainly states that the wicked , who through the pride of his countenance , will not seek God .
Furthermore , no one of the free choice view has ever stated that God only saves good people . If that were the truth , there would be no one saved because there are no good people .
Moreover , none of the free choice view have ever said that seeking saves anyone , that's absurd .
Therefore , you are in grave error when you state that I am teaching anything of the sort .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 8:23:37 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1595
Joined: 12/2/2006
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quote:
I will repeat: Rom 3:10-18 describes different kinds of evil that men do, as an illustration of the fact that all are under sin.
But to claim that only v.10-12 describes everyone, without also accepting v.13-18 as describing everyone, you have no point.
After making the point that everyone is under sin, Paul quotes from 7 OT sources to illustrate how men are sinners. But he is NOT saying that everyone in the human race is guilty of what all those verses say.
The text applies to everyone.
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 8:33:41 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1595
Joined: 12/2/2006
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AboundinginHisGrace,
quote:
They could not be born again. Their sins were not forgiven, they were postponed. Paul stated that the blood of goat and bulls never cleansed sin. Their/our sins were cleansed by what Christ did on the Cross. So they could not be born again.
"And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die" (2 Samuel 12:13).
quote:
That is why old testaments saints went to paradise/Abraham's bosom when they died. They could not enter heaven until Christ died on the cross. That is what it is saying about Christ taking captivity captive and when the old testament saints were seem walking among the living. After Christ ascended and so did the OT saints, and now when Christians die they go to heaven. So if you have to born again before you seek God, how did they seek God?
How did John the Baptist seek God?
Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John. 14He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth. 16Many of the people of Israel will he bring back to the Lord their God. 17And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
Looks to me as though God had Johns life mapped out long before John did any whining, willing, or running. 
Any comments on Ezra 1 and God moving the hearts of men to proclaim and obey?
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 8:35:55 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1769
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
Do you admit the error of your statement, “Your linking 'as it is written' to the previous verse is a serious error" or do you still hold to that view?
FG will do a fine job of answering this ; but I have an opinion : when Paul states "as it is written" , he is not refering to what he had just written , but to what was written in the OT .
If I have misunderstood how you are using it (to refer to what Paul had just written) , I apologize in advance .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 8:55:25 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1595
Joined: 12/2/2006
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Sola37,
quote:
Context is always KEY :)
Another great KEY would be to refrain from distorting text.
quote:
>> We read from Malachi 1:2 that God loved Jacob and hated Esau. Why is this
so? Jacob is such a deceiver yet God prefered him than Esau. Does this
mean that it is God's Sovereighty to choose who He wants to bless more and
who He blesses less? Yet, we also know that God does not practise
favoritism.<<
Here is text from Malachi 1;
4 Edom may say, "Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins."
But this is what the LORD Almighty says: "They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD.
5 You will see it with your own eyes and say, 'Great is the LORD -even beyond the borders of Israel!'
He does not practice favoritism in any way?
It sure seems He has had a lot of favor on my household and I can certainly tell you we did not deserve it.
Why is it so that He hated and loved?
It is because God choose to do so.
The text in Romans is clear that it had nothing to do with the two willing or running.
This sovereign choice of God to love (yes love) and hate (yes hate) one over another was all according to His perogative.
quote:
The expression "Esau I hated" does not intend to suggest that God held some
form of malice against Esau or that He held him in contempt.
I dunno about that.
Maybe you should do a word search on hate and explore its meanings?
quote:
Neither does
"Jacob I loved" suggest that God loved the sins of Jacob (any more than Jno.
3:16 means that God loves the sins of the world because He loves the world).
8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.
quote:
You are on the right track when you speak of the sovereignty of God. God
has the right to choose who He will use to accomplish His purposes here on
earth, and on one occasion He choose Jacob rather than Esau.
What ever happened to that valuable and cherished free-will you were promoting?
quote:
Romans 9:8-13
explains that God's choice was made before they were born, so it had nothing
to do with their "good or evil," but everything to do with God's sovereign
right to choose (elect) who He would use to accomplish His purposes (cf.
Rom. 9:11).
It is speaking about children of God.
quote:
Since the choice being discussed did not involve Jacob and Esau's condition
of goodness or evil, the text is not discussing their eternal salvation,
only that God made a choice one (Jacob, along with his descendants) and not
the other (Esau and his descendants) to fulfill the divine purposes of God
(Messiah, etc.)
You used Malachi once to show a point......why not use it again?
Here it is;
They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD.
You also used John 3..........lets use it again;
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
quote:
This answers the idea of divine favoritism: God choice was
not regarding their salvation, but their place in accomplishing the divine
purposes of human redemption (sending Christ into the world). All their
descendants will be saved in exactly the same way: faith in Christ and
obedience to His gospel (Rom. 11:25-36).
Children of the promise.
Romans 9;
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 8:58:31 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrcae,
For me to give an understandable response to your post number 31951, I think you would have to learn to understand the definitions and uses of words and terms such as;
Light, evil, nature, sin, effect, created, fail, comprehend, seek, evident, existence, power, nature, attributes, no one, excuse, hostile, etc.......
A big hurdle in talking with A-folk is
the peacock-like prancing they practice.
Maybe they are unaware of this habit.
They say God made them better...
They don't type that, but it is there.
Why would I dare make such an accusation ?
They are better choosers. They see more.
They aren't dead in sin, or trespasses.
When sin entered the world...no impact.
They can see in the dark.
They understand more & know more.
The love God with ALL their being.
The believe they are more able.
They instinctively know the way to Heaven.
The C crowd is quick to say "stinky sinner"
about himself and God's rescue from hell.
Like the publican, looking at the ground,
not daring to hardly speak, certainly no bold
claims about what he has done himself, just
"Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner !!!"
Then you have the other guy-
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 9:29:50 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
McFatty,
quote:
If I'm not wrong, according to you, no creature is able to meet what He requires because He refuses to allow them to. Is that right?
In regard to the intent of my post to you.....instead of both of us going into more and more questions, can we at least come to a conclusion on the first question?
One of your questions on this forum was if God actually commanded people to do what they were incapable of doing. That is what I was responding to.
Dialogue on other issues such as "causes" can certainly follow.
You had the notion that if God commanded people to do what they could not do, He was sort of a cruel brute of sorts if He was to punish them. You used the idea of a person commanding another person not to urinate, and then the person was punished for urinating when it was only natural for them to urinate.
The following is the text that someone else posted to you in an attempt to show you that Jesus Christ most certainly commanded a person to do what they were unable to do;
"'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
The text implies "commandments".
I say the Word of God is clear that all people fall short and do not meet what is commanded.
I say the Word of God is clear that those with the written law as well as those without the written law are all guilty of not keeping the law.
Your repsonse to the text was;
quote:
I believe you have misunderstood me, and it seems you have made some bad inferences as a result.
At no time in my response did I say "always" or "all the time". My statement is that without the Spirit, I couldn't do any of these things ever. With the Spirit, I can. Sure I slip up, but I can actually do them.
Someone may have misunderstood you.
With the above clarification that you gave I really dont think I have a mis-understanding.
I think you have a misunderstanding of what the commands command.
I figure by your response that you dont have an actual grasp of those commands (and I am not saying that to belittle you at all).
That is what I was responding to.
I am not un-willing to go into more questions and answers with you in a dialogue......but is it possible we can reach a conclusion on this issue first?
I say the Word of God is clear that people are not to sin.
I also say the Word of God claims that people are not capable of meeting what is required by God.
Do we agree on that or not?
I think this is the first hurdle that when properly understood clearly shows that people are with a sin nature and not a free nature.
By nature people have a sinful-will which is hostile to God and is not a free-will.
That is why they do not meet what is commanded.
KJB
For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
I agree that people aren't capable of meeting what is required by God without help, however once we have the Holy Spirit, anything is possible through faith. Jesus told us we could move a mountain by simply asking it to move. How much more could we love God with the Holy Spirit helping us?
As far as the Bible saying we aren't supposed to sin, I agree. I believe the passage went something like, "Do not sin, but if you do sin, know that you have an advocate with the Father in Jesus Christ." I know that isn't word for word, but I can't remember where to find that verse. Romans, I think.
Does this answer your question?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 9:34:57 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
For your first question, let me give a clarification. I disagree it was a "foreordination" in the way you mean the word. I believe Judas was free to choose as he would, and that God did not choose Judas' actions, but that God foreknew what they would be, because God is not constrained by time as we are. He is past, present, and future all at once.
The problem with that is God insists that HE determined what was to happen. This does not agree with the idea some have concerning "foreknowledge" to mean simply knowing something in advance. Foreknowledge means much more than that.
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: -Acts 2:23
quote:
For your second question, God said we are blessed when we week Him with our whole hearts. There are more places in the Bible talking about seeking than just these. Also, if everyone is wicked when not chosen to be saved by Christ, and all the wicked are unable to seek him with the whole heart, then why are these whole heart seeking passages being written well before Christ? OT believers were saved precisely as NT believers are. When they are given a new heart[regeneration] they will seek God in the manner He commands - with all their heart.
It was God's plan that Jesus die on the cross, no doubt. Does this mean that Judas didn't make a choice? Not at all. Jesus was in town and wasn't hiding out. The authorities would have found Him without help. God's plan, I believe, in this passage, refers to His plan for what His Son would do, rather than everyone else in Jerusalem.
Alright, I lost you. How could Old Testament people have been saved precisely as New Testament people are? If that is the case, why did Jesus Christ need to suffer and die, or even come in the flesh at all?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 10:02:02 AM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
McFatty,
quote:
If I'm not wrong, according to you, no creature is able to meet what He requires because He refuses to allow them to. Is that right?
In regard to the intent of my post to you.....instead of both of us going into more and more questions, can we at least come to a conclusion on the first question?
One of your questions on this forum was if God actually commanded people to do what they were incapable of doing. That is what I was responding to.
Dialogue on other issues such as "causes" can certainly follow.
You had the notion that if God commanded people to do what they could not do, He was sort of a cruel brute of sorts if He was to punish them. You used the idea of a person commanding another person not to urinate, and then the person was punished for urinating when it was only natural for them to urinate.
The following is the text that someone else posted to you in an attempt to show you that Jesus Christ most certainly commanded a person to do what they were unable to do;
"'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
The text implies "commandments".
I say the Word of God is clear that all people fall short and do not meet what is commanded.
I say the Word of God is clear that those with the written law as well as those without the written law are all guilty of not keeping the law.
Your repsonse to the text was;
quote:
I believe you have misunderstood me, and it seems you have made some bad inferences as a result.
At no time in my response did I say "always" or "all the time". My statement is that without the Spirit, I couldn't do any of these things ever. With the Spirit, I can. Sure I slip up, but I can actually do them.
Someone may have misunderstood you.
With the above clarification that you gave I really dont think I have a mis-understanding.
I think you have a misunderstanding of what the commands command.
I figure by your response that you dont have an actual grasp of those commands (and I am not saying that to belittle you at all).
That is what I was responding to.
I am not un-willing to go into more questions and answers with you in a dialogue......but is it possible we can reach a conclusion on this issue first?
I say the Word of God is clear that people are not to sin.
I also say the Word of God claims that people are not capable of meeting what is required by God.
Do we agree on that or not?
I think this is the first hurdle that when properly understood clearly shows that people are with a sin nature and not a free nature.
By nature people have a sinful-will which is hostile to God and is not a free-will.
That is why they do not meet what is commanded.
KJB
For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
I agree that people aren't capable of meeting what is required by God without help, however once we have the Holy Spirit, anything is possible through faith. Jesus told us we could move a mountain by simply asking it to move. How much more could we love God with the Holy Spirit helping us?
As far as the Bible saying we aren't supposed to sin, I agree. I believe the passage went something like, "Do not sin, but if you do sin, know that you have an advocate with the Father in Jesus Christ." I know that isn't word for word, but I can't remember where to find that verse. Romans, I think.
Does this answer your question?
Oh really? What about Paul's thorn?  Notice that Paul asked God to remove it. Why do you think that is? And what was God's reason why he didn't? So that Paul wouldn't become conceited.
Why do you think Jesus tells us to pray to God to lead us out of temptation and deliver us from evil?I, for one, would love to be as sinless as God is. Why don't you think I am?
Because God doesn't want to share His throne with anyone. That means that He alone decides when his grace is sufficient for us and where he will strengthen us. So we can do anything God wants us to do because he will give us the strength to do what he wants us to do...and it's not to be be God ourselves.
< Message edited by Carico -- 7/24/2008 10:11:11 AM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 10:13:04 AM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 403
Joined: 4/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
Ex 35:28 and spices and oil for the light, for the anointing oil, and for the sweet incense. 29 The children of Israel brought a freewill offering to the LORD, all the men and women whose hearts were willing to bring material for all kinds of work which the LORD, by the hand of Moses, had commanded to be done.
No one has answered the question I have yet. Reformists say that you have to be born again/regenerated before you accept/chose Christ. Then how did Noah, David, etc etc old testament prophets chose God? They were not born again.
The OT saints were saved precisely as NT believers are - by the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. References to the Holy Spirit are varied in the OT. It is said He fills, He comes upon, He dwells within; and, we often see it was temporary simply as a means to fulfill God's will.
Zacharias, Elisabeth, Mary, the mother of Jesus - all on the OT side - were indwelled by the Holy Spirit, they were regenerated, they were born again. And we know David had the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.
quote:
They could not be born again. Their sins were not forgiven, they were postponed. Paul stated that the blood of goat and bulls never cleansed sin. Their/our sins were cleansed by what Christ did on the Cross. So they could not be born again. That is why old testaments saints went to paradise/Abraham's bosom when they died. They could not enter heaven until Christ died on the cross. That is what it is saying about Christ taking captivity captive and when the old testament saints were seem walking among the living. After Christ ascended and so did the OT saints, and now when Christians die they go to heaven. So if you have to born again before you seek God, how did they seek God?
If anyone is not "born again" they are eternally condemned and that includes all people on the OT side of the Cross.
But, of course, all OT saints were, in fact, born again. They ALL had the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.
They ALL entered heaven to be with their Savior when they died.
All mankind was "captive" and Christ led captivity free at the Cross.
At the Cross when some graves opened these saints went into the "holy city". The veil of the Temple was rent, there exists now only ONE holy city - the New Jerusalem - heaven - they went into heaven.
The OT saints sought God with all their hearts because they were born again.
They did not all have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We learn that from acts. Not until the day of Pentecost did everyone that became Christians receive the Holy Spirit. If you notice in the old testament the holy spirit left them before they died. They could not go to heaven because their sins were not forgiven. Paul said the blood of goats and bulls never took away sin. Show me anywhere in the OT where it said any of the OT saints were born again. The Holy Spirit did come up on some of them but it always left, the Holy Spirit even came upon lost people for God to use in the OT. So it was different then, not everyone that was a follower of God had the Holy Spirit. They also did not go to heaven they went to paradise/Abraham's bosom there is a difference in Paradise and heaven. When Jesus died He didn't go to heaven, He went to paradise (Today you will be with me in Paradise). After He was resurrected and spent time with the apostles and other He then ascended. I know now you have to be born again to enter Heaven I am not saying that. And now People who die that are Christians do go to heaven, but in OT they did not.
< Message edited by AboundinginHisGrace -- 7/24/2008 10:20:41 AM >
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 10:15:51 AM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
Ex 35:28 and spices and oil for the light, for the anointing oil, and for the sweet incense. 29 The children of Israel brought a freewill offering to the LORD, all the men and women whose hearts were willing to bring material for all kinds of work which the LORD, by the hand of Moses, had commanded to be done.
No one has answered the question I have yet. Reformists say that you have to be born again/regenerated before you accept/chose Christ. Then how did Noah, David, etc etc old testament prophets chose God? They were not born again.
The OT saints were saved precisely as NT believers are - by the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. References to the Holy Spirit are varied in the OT. It is said He fills, He comes upon, He dwells within; and, we often see it was temporary simply as a means to fulfill God's will.
Zacharias, Elisabeth, Mary, the mother of Jesus - all on the OT side - were indwelled by the Holy Spirit, they were regenerated, they were born again. And we know David had the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.
quote:
They could not be born again. Their sins were not forgiven, they were postponed. Paul stated that the blood of goat and bulls never cleansed sin. Their/our sins were cleansed by what Christ did on the Cross. So they could not be born again. That is why old testaments saints went to paradise/Abraham's bosom when they died. They could not enter heaven until Christ died on the cross. That is what it is saying about Christ taking captivity captive and when the old testament saints were seem walking among the living. After Christ ascended and so did the OT saints, and now when Christians die they go to heaven. So if you have to born again before you seek God, how did they seek God?
If anyone is not "born again" they are eternally condemned and that includes all people on the OT side of the Cross.
But, of course, all OT saints were, in fact, born again. They ALL had the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.
They ALL entered heaven to be with their Savior when they died.
All mankind was "captive" and Christ led captivity free at the Cross.
At the Cross when some graves opened these saints went into the "holy city". The veil of the Temple was rent, there exists now only ONE holy city - the New Jerusalem - heaven - they went into heaven.
The OT saints sought God with all their hearts because they were born again.
They did not all have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We learn that from acts. Not until the day of Pentecost did everyone that became Christians receive the Holy Spirit. If you notice in the old testament the holy spirit left them before they died. They could not go to heaven because their sins were not forgiven. Paul said the blood of goats and bulls never took away sin. Show me anywhere in the OT where it said any of the OT saints were born again. The Holy Spirit did come up on some of them but it always left, the Holy Spirit even came upon lost people for God to use in the OT. So it was different then, not everyone that was a follower of God had the Holy Spirit.
Since according to you, God's power has nothing to do with man's righteousness, then to you, what led people in the OT to be righteous enough to follow God? The devil? Or their sinful nature? 
This is another area where non-reformists contradict themselves and the bible. Since they don't believe in election (which is all over the bible), they have to find some way to claim that man is righteous on his own which is not only unbiblical, but it is self-righteousness which negates the need for the Holy Spirit and the cross.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 10:22:22 AM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 403
Joined: 4/28/2008
Status: offline
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God still has to open our eyes, but we are not forced. I know man by his self will not chose God. It does take the convicting of the Holy Spirit. But it is up to man to repent or not.
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 10:23:34 AM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
God still has to open our eyes, but we are not forced. I know man by his self will not chose God. It does take the convicting of the Holy Spirit. But it is up to man to repent or not.
So if someone hits you on the head and heals you of blindness, how much of a decision did you make to be able to see? And secondly, why do you want to take credit for the healing that someone else did for you?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 10:28:15 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
McFatty,
quote:
If I'm not wrong, according to you, no creature is able to meet what He requires because He refuses to allow them to. Is that right?
In regard to the intent of my post to you.....instead of both of us going into more and more questions, can we at least come to a conclusion on the first question?
One of your questions on this forum was if God actually commanded people to do what they were incapable of doing. That is what I was responding to.
Dialogue on other issues such as "causes" can certainly follow.
You had the notion that if God commanded people to do what they could not do, He was sort of a cruel brute of sorts if He was to punish them. You used the idea of a person commanding another person not to urinate, and then the person was punished for urinating when it was only natural for them to urinate.
The following is the text that someone else posted to you in an attempt to show you that Jesus Christ most certainly commanded a person to do what they were unable to do;
"'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
The text implies "commandments".
I say the Word of God is clear that all people fall short and do not meet what is commanded.
I say the Word of God is clear that those with the written law as well as those without the written law are all guilty of not keeping the law.
Your repsonse to the text was;
quote:
I believe you have misunderstood me, and it seems you have made some bad inferences as a result.
At no time in my response did I say "always" or "all the time". My statement is that without the Spirit, I couldn't do any of these things ever. With the Spirit, I can. Sure I slip up, but I can actually do them.
Someone may have misunderstood you.
With the above clarification that you gave I really dont think I have a mis-understanding.
I think you have a misunderstanding of what the commands command.
I figure by your response that you dont have an actual grasp of those commands (and I am not saying that to belittle you at all).
That is what I was responding to.
I am not un-willing to go into more questions and answers with you in a dialogue......but is it possible we can reach a conclusion on this issue first?
I say the Word of God is clear that people are not to sin.
I also say the Word of God claims that people are not capable of meeting what is required by God.
Do we agree on that or not?
I think this is the first hurdle that when properly understood clearly shows that people are with a sin nature and not a free nature.
By nature people have a sinful-will which is hostile to God and is not a free-will.
That is why they do not meet what is commanded.
KJB
For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
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