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Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 9:19:31 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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Discuss the issues surrounding the teachings of Calvin.
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[Deleted] - 7/7/2005 10:01:54 AM
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 11:33:11 AM
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NewinChrist
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To me this is what it basically comes down to.. and although there are clear scriptural examples of God determining specific things to happen (even from before the foundation of the world)..calvinism takes it too far and applies these predetermined purposes of God to specific individuals rather to their respective ends.. such as the church of God etc.. It's clear to me from scripture that God predetermined to have a church although I do not see it in the individualistic way in which calvinists see it..
I've mentioned many times what I perceive to be a bottom line so to speak in calvinism.. and that's their claim that God must allow a person to believe.. how that there's no individual choice in the matter at all...God either makes them believe or He doesn't.. and this is the ultimate fate of man.. this they claim is the sovereignty of God although in my estimation it reduces His creative power to nothing more than robots who are either programmed to believe or not..
I'm sure we'll go on and on as the pages roll.. but it's good (at least in my estimation) to see the bottom line in these things before we speak of the details..
so fasten your seatbelt and enjoy the ride..
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 12:48:56 PM
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NewinChrist
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
quote:
It's clear to me from scripture that God predetermined to have a church although I do not see it in the individualistic way in which calvinists see it..
How is it possible to predetermine the existence of a group of people (i.e., the Church), and leave it to chance whether that group will exist?
How can you have a group with no members?
I guess your assumption here is that the Lord didn't know whether or not any would believe and trust in Him after He gave Himself for them.. He has perfect foreknowledge of these things.. as they were all foretold before they happened..
It's not chance in this respect.. we love Him BECAUSE He first loved us.. I don't see it as some switch that is turned on for some and not for others..? It was people (His creation) hearing the truth of the gospel.. hearing the truth that even when we were (are) sinners that He decided to lay down His life for us.. to forgive us when we were (are) at our worst.. to show us a love that goes beyond knowledge..
To me it's this love and grace that wins the heart..
The other way makes no sense to me at all.. ie, that God decided that certain people would love Him.. and they didn't even have the capacity to make that decision..?
Paul said that he was not ashamed of the gospel.. for it satisfies the deepest demands of my heart and my mind.. it resolves all things.. it proves all things.. it's not some mindless and heartless chain of events going on here.. and I don't want to sound harsh..but there's really no other way to say it I think...
The King has either won the loyalty and affections of His people or He has decided that for them...
Seriously.. which way seems more sovereign to you..?
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 12:50:27 PM
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NewinChrist
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
TF...
From the banned thread:
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
TJ,
The only potential for sin lies in fallible moral agents. When God created men and angels he created the firecracker. There was no potential for sin before that. One of the first detonations was Adam eating the forbidden fruit.
-Turretinfan
TF,
We might be understanding the word "potential" differently.
I agree that without a fallible moral agent in existence, that it is impossible for sin to occur. (Thus, I said that God "doesn't shove the boulder off the mountain himself").
However, consider this:
Set your mind "before the creation"-- in the eternity prior to when God said "let there be light". In that eternity, there was only God in existence.
Now... let's take one single concept for illustration: Truth. God stands for Truth, God upholds Truth, God is Truth.
Ok... Because God is who God is-- Truth, in this example-- there must exist the CONCEPT of "False", or "Lie".
There indeed is no being to think, believe, or conduct a falsity/lie. Therefore, it is impossible for a falisty/lie to ACTUALLY exist.
Nevertheless, the hypothetical CONCEPT of Lie/False exists because God exists... it "potentially exists".... or, "potentially could exist".
(Caps not shouting.. .just too lazy to format)
Note that this view mandates free will apart from God's will..
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 12:52:06 PM
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NewinChrist
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
quote:
and that's their claim that God must allow a person to believe..
Indeed this will go around in circles as usual... but it is not a "claim".
quote:
how that there's no individual choice in the matter at all...
Oh, but yet again... there is every bit of individual choice in the matter. Always, at all times-- whether one choses to reject God or chooses to accept God, THEY THEMSELVES make that choice.
quote:
God either makes them believe or He doesn't..
Your use of the word "makes", makes it sound like it is against their will.
Yes or no.. according to calvinism..Must God allow a person to BELIEVE ?
< Message edited by NewinChrist -- 7/7/2005 12:56:27 PM >
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 12:57:13 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1748
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quote:
He has perfect foreknowledge of these things.. as they were all foretold before they happened..
Let's take this statement NIC. Even with this view, things would have to be as God "foreknows" them or he wouldn't have perfect foreknowledge would he? IOW the results would be the same with your view as our view. If God "foreknows" that someone would come to Christ, that person would have to come to Christ.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 1:01:10 PM
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NewinChrist
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bygraceiamsaved
quote:
He has perfect foreknowledge of these things.. as they were all foretold before they happened..
Let's take this statement NIC. Even with this view, things would have to be as God "foreknows" them or he wouldn't have perfect foreknowledge would he? IOW the results would be the same with your view as our view. If God "foreknows" that someone would come to Christ, that person would have to come to Christ.
I agree completely bygrace.. although foreknowledge doesn't mean that I didn't have a choice.. it simply means that He foreknew the people who would be ****ed in their hearts so to speak and call upon Him for their salvation.. He didn't force it to happen, He knew it would happen..
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 1:12:57 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
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So what would happen to God's foreknowledge if he sees one as coming to Christ and they would freely choose not to......
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 1:21:22 PM
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NewinChrist
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bygraceiamsaved
So what would happen to God's foreknowledge if he sees one as coming to Christ and they would freely choose not to......
That would be Falseknowledge... lol...
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 1:26:51 PM
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NewinChrist
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God knows the end from the beginning, and He has told us the end from the beginning in His word.. the NT book of Revelation tells us the end of all things to come.. this doesn't mandate that He is forcing all things to happen.. He's simply telling us what IS going to happen..
This isn't that difficult is it..? I mean, do most people automatically associate foreknowlede with determining things that happen..?
Let's try an example...
If I KNOW that drinking and driving leads to an eventual accident.. does that mandate that I MADE the accident happen.. ?
Of course NOT.. foreknowledge doesn't mandate events..it simply knows that events will occur... yeah...ney..?
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 1:36:19 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
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quote:
This isn't that difficult is it..? I mean, do most people automatically associate foreknowlede with determining things that happen..?
Ugh yeah.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 1:37:43 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1748
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quote:
foreknowledge Foreknowledge \Fore*knowl"edge\, n.
Knowledge of a thing before it happens, or of whatever is to
happen; prescience.
[1913 Webster]
If I foreknew,
Foreknowledge had no influence on their fault.
--Milton.
[1913 Webster]
"WordNet (r) 2.0"
foreknowledge
n : knowledge of an event before it occurs [syn: precognition]
"Moby Thesaurus II by Grady Ward, 1.0"
33 Moby Thesaurus words for "foreknowledge":
apprehension, clairvoyance, command, comprehension, conception,
conceptualization, decree, foreboding, foredestiny,
foregone conclusion, foreknowing, foreordination, foreseeability,
forewisdom, grasp, grip, ideation, intellection, intelligence,
mastery, mental grasp, necessity, precognition, predestination,
predetermination, prehension, preordination, presage, prescience,
presentiment, savvy, understanding, wisdom
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 1:37:51 PM
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Chief
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
quote:
ORIGINAL: bygraceiamsaved
So what would happen to God's foreknowledge if he sees one as coming to Christ and they would freely choose not to......
That would be Falseknowledge... lol...
LOL on that one, NIC.
Here are verses for us to consider.
Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
Isa 14:27
For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
_____________________________
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 1:38:15 PM
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NewinChrist
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bygraceiamsaved
quote:
This isn't that difficult is it..? I mean, do most people automatically associate foreknowlede with determining things that happen..?
Ugh yeah.
So if you KNOW something is going to happen.. to you it means that you're making it happen..?
I know the drinking/driving example is a poor one.. but do you suggest that knowing that drinking and driving leads to accidents mandates that they must happen..?
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 1:39:48 PM
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jazzact13
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Let me give a bit of a story, a parable if you would, that shows my I have problems with some parts of Calvinism.
A man builds a robot. He programs this robot to kill someone. The robot does it's job and kills this person. The man and the robot are taken into custody. At the trial, the man defends himself by saying that while, yes, he did program the robot to do the deed, he is not guilty, but that while the robot was programed to kill and had no say in the matter, it is actually the robot that is guilty of murder.
Now, to apply that to Calvinism. In their view, all we do is predetermined (programed). We have no say in the matter at all. God is the one who has predetermined everything. Yet despite the fact that God is the only truly active participant, and we are only animated puppets, we are still the ones who are guilty of the sins we commit, even though we cannot NOT commit them. We are like the robot, in that we can do nothing except what is fated or destined for us to do, what has been foreordained for us to do, yet despite our helplessness, we are the ones deemed to be guilty.
I cannot find justice in this scenario.
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 1:43:39 PM
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Chief
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quote:
This isn't that difficult is it..? I mean, do most people automatically associate foreknowlede with determining things that happen..?
Ac 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Ac 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
_____________________________
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 1:44:15 PM
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NewinChrist
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Chief
quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
quote:
ORIGINAL: bygraceiamsaved
So what would happen to God's foreknowledge if he sees one as coming to Christ and they would freely choose not to......
That would be Falseknowledge... lol...
LOL on that one, NIC.
Here are verses for us to consider.
Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
Isa 14:27
For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
These verses are in the context of GOD doing His work.. of course He was going to execute on what His word said from the beginning.. although this has nothing to do with Him allowing certain individuals to believe and not others.. although I think you know that already...and it's as if you're saying something like this to disprove something that you already know that nobody is saying..
lol.. that's a good sentence..
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 1:47:53 PM
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NewinChrist
Posts: 89
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Chief
quote:
This isn't that difficult is it..? I mean, do most people automatically associate foreknowlede with determining things that happen..?
Ac 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Ac 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
AGAIN.. this is applying what GOD HAS DONE to what people can or can not do..
Although you already knew that Chief, didn't you.. nobody has denied that God was foreordained from the foundation of the world to offer Himself for the sins of the world.. nobody has said anything contrary to that.. although again.. I'm sure you already knew that..
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 1:49:39 PM
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NewinChrist
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jazzact13
Let me give a bit of a story, a parable if you would, that shows my I have problems with some parts of Calvinism.
A man builds a robot. He programs this robot to kill someone. The robot does it's job and kills this person. The man and the robot are taken into custody. At the trial, the man defends himself by saying that while, yes, he did program the robot to do the deed, he is not guilty, but that while the robot was programed to kill and had no say in the matter, it is actually the robot that is guilty of murder.
Now, to apply that to Calvinism. In their view, all we do is predetermined (programed). We have no say in the matter at all. God is the one who has predetermined everything. Yet despite the fact that God is the only truly active participant, and we are only animated puppets, we are still the ones who are guilty of the sins we commit, even though we cannot NOT commit them. We are like the robot, in that we can do nothing except what is fated or destined for us to do, what has been foreordained for us to do, yet despite our helplessness, we are the ones deemed to be guilty.
I cannot find justice in this scenario.
I'm so glad that others see it this way too.. sometimes I wonder if I've walked into the proverbial 2x4 too many times.. lol..
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 1:55:28 PM
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Chief
Posts: 104
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
quote:
ORIGINAL: Chief
quote:
This isn't that difficult is it..? I mean, do most people automatically associate foreknowlede with determining things that happen..?
Ac 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Ac 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
AGAIN.. this is applying what GOD HAS DONE to what people can or can not do..
Although you already knew that Chief, didn't you.. nobody has denied that God was foreordained from the foundation of the world to offer Himself for the sins of the world.. nobody has said anything contrary to that.. although again.. I'm sure you already knew that..
I was merely pointing out that determination and foreknowledge are associated in scriptures.
_____________________________
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 1:57:19 PM
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Chief
Posts: 104
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
quote:
ORIGINAL: Chief
quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
quote:
ORIGINAL: bygraceiamsaved
So what would happen to God's foreknowledge if he sees one as coming to Christ and they would freely choose not to......
That would be Falseknowledge... lol...
LOL on that one, NIC.
Here are verses for us to consider.
Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
Isa 14:27
For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
These verses are in the context of GOD doing His work.. of course He was going to execute on what His word said from the beginning.. although this has nothing to do with Him allowing certain individuals to believe and not others.. although I think you know that already...and it's as if you're saying something like this to disprove something that you already know that nobody is saying..
lol.. that's a good sentence..
NIC,
Clarify for me real quick what you meant by God allowing certain individual to believe and not others.
_____________________________
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:03:41 PM
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NewinChrist
Posts: 89
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Chief
Clarify for me real quick what you meant by God allowing certain individual to believe and not others.
Well let's see Chief.. in a PM you were just telling me how that the only choice you had was to sin.. so why do I think you already know exactly what you're asking here.. why don't you tell us..
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:12:02 PM
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turretinfan
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From: Death to Life by the Power of the Spirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: holdon
Does Calvinism imply determinism?
Calvinism is a philosophy in which God determines history.
quote:
Do we have to reject Calvinism because of its deterministic philosophy?
Nope, that is one reason to embrace it.
-Turretinfan
_____________________________
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:18:06 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1748
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quote:
So if you KNOW something is going to happen.. to you it means that you're making it happen..?
According to scripture God allows things to happen at times without any intervention, in the case of salvation, God changes the heart, changes the will and adds another bonus of giving spiritual insight to be able to see things as God sees them. We see them from his point of view and not ours.
Jazz: If a man is drowning and someone saves him, he fights this person who is trying to save him, but yet the man continues to save this person's life. The drowning man is taken to shore and given CPR, realizes what just happened to him, his life is saved if the man saving him would have let the fighting stop him the drowning man would have been dead. What do you think that drowning man's reaction would then be?
The Bible says you are robots of Satan before God interneves, yet because of what Christ did on the cross, God sets us free from that, where is that what you have ascribed. Does God "program us to kill?" I would say your analogy is way off base.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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