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RE: John MacArthur - 7/10/2007 4:08:02 PM
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bride48
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Look at the Doctrinal Statement on the website that Ps 103 gave. It clears up a lot of misunderstanding about what MacArthur teaches. I disagree with some of his end times theology, but otherwise I think he's pretty on target.
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DebbieLynne
And Paul Smith Is Such A Non-Descript Name... (my latest blog entry)
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RE: John MacArthur - 7/10/2007 5:45:07 PM
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earthless
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Like others have said.. I agree with him on many, if not all, things except for his holding to dispensationalism. I am not a dispensationalist.
But eschatology of that sort is a secondary issue and not a core essential of the faith. So it is something we both have the liberty to disagree on and not have to divide over.
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RE: John MacArthur - 7/10/2007 6:36:57 PM
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bride48
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Like others have said.. I agree with him on many, if not all, things except for his holding to dispensationalism. I am not a dispensationalist.
But eschatology of that sort is a secondary issue and not a core essential of the faith. So it is something we both have the liberty to disagree on and not have to divide over.
Exactly. I think he's seeing real problems within evangelical churches, and I admire his courage to challenge those problems!
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Joyfully,
DebbieLynne
And Paul Smith Is Such A Non-Descript Name... (my latest blog entry)
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RE: John MacArthur - 7/10/2007 7:29:47 PM
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humbleinspirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: MensWriter
Odd how someone can choose which miracles to believe in. Over the past thirty years, the stories I could tell of how I've seen God in bold action...
I can't speak for MacArthur, but the claims for what people take for miracles are legion. So, yeah. I am very picky myself.
Well, that would be a contradictory thing then. Because Satan cannot cast out Satan. Jesus said so himself, A house divided against itself will not stand! The devil is a good counterfeiter, if the miracles of churches that he disagrees with are demonic, then shouldn't there be authentic miracles happening in Bible believing, what he believes in churches as well?
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RE: John MacArthur - 7/10/2007 7:37:35 PM
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humbleinspirit
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BTW, Grahamcracker, I have nothing against you personally just trying to comment on your post about miracles being of the devil. I apologize if I misundersood what you wrote. 
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RE: John MacArthur - 7/10/2007 8:07:38 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
Well, that would be a contradictory thing then. Because Satan cannot cast out Satan. Jesus said so himself, A house divided against itself will not stand! The devil is a good counterfeiter, if the miracles of churches that he disagrees with are demonic, then shouldn't there be authentic miracles happening in Bible believing, what he believes in churches as well?
If you will read the Bible, you will note that Satan is shown to be doing miracles. The two magicians who encountered Moses at Pharoah's court did miracles, at least if you take the text at face value.
One of the characteristics of the Antichrist is that he would do miracles and "lying wonders." See Revelation 13:13.
But hey, I'm not saying that Charismatic churches are doing Satanic miracles. Frankly, I don't think they are doing miracles. Perhaps 1 out of 100 or 1 out of 1,000 are truly miraculous. I just don't think they hold very high standards for what they call miracles.
And, I am not saying God is doing nothing. I just think He is getting credit for somethings that are not miracles.
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Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: John MacArthur - 7/10/2007 8:11:16 PM
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humbleinspirit
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OK, I understand that point, but I do think that "real" miracles happen in places where we do not expect, namely closed countries to the Gospel, where you either really believe in Jesus or you don't.
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RE: John MacArthur - 7/10/2007 11:19:52 PM
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asker
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Crankius, you wrote:
quote:
Our works play NO part in our justification before the Lord, because it is only the blood of Christ which can atone for our sins. My works cannot in any way atone for my sin. As a dead person, I cannot do anything of value. All my works are filthy rags.
I do not see how your statement agrees with the most carefully documented salvation principle in all Scripture, that we must repent, which Jesus defined as "stop sinning," prior being justified (I.e. Acts 2:38, 3:19, and 26:17-18).
When Wesley once placed God's required change in behavior (repentance) after justification, he was reprimanded by his church (the Church of England) for "preaching with the Calvinist antinomians." He defended himself by quoting from their articles, but then in a subsequent response corrected himself, quoting from Scripture to show (to agree) that repentance must preceed justification.
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RE: John MacArthur - 7/11/2007 1:11:01 AM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
OK, I understand that point, but I do think that "real" miracles happen in places where we do not expect, namely closed countries to the Gospel, where you either really believe in Jesus or you don't.
What makes you think they I don't believe Jesus just because most people go around claiming things happened that didn't?
It's really weird that such alleged "miracles" are rarely to never seen here but some place you don't go and likely haven't seen, you believe they are. Do you think God makes them happen but doesn't open them up to examination? He didn't work that way in the Bible.
To say they're happening in places where they cannot be examined doesn't really resolve anything. What I am going on is that all of these claims are for things that no body can check up on. If you move them to 3rd world countries, how does that help?
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 7/11/2007 7:11:30 AM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: John MacArthur - 7/11/2007 8:26:17 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1904
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quote:
ORIGINAL: asker
Crankius, you wrote:
quote:
Our works play NO part in our justification before the Lord, because it is only the blood of Christ which can atone for our sins. My works cannot in any way atone for my sin. As a dead person, I cannot do anything of value. All my works are filthy rags.
I do not see how your statement agrees with the most carefully documented salvation principle in all Scripture, that we must repent, which Jesus defined as "stop sinning," prior being justified (I.e. Acts 2:38, 3:19, and 26:17-18).
When Wesley once placed God's required change in behavior (repentance) after justification, he was reprimanded by his church (the Church of England) for "preaching with the Calvinist antinomians." He defended himself by quoting from their articles, but then in a subsequent response corrected himself, quoting from Scripture to show (to agree) that repentance must preceed justification.
The problem with Wesley was that he taught entire sanctification in this life. That's not scriptural. We are justified at salvation (meaning declared righteous). When the Father looks at us, he see Jesus, meaning he sees as perfect, because Jesus is the mediator as Hebrews puts it.
This does not mean that we still sin, but it does mean that we are not enslaved to sin. We should not desire to sin anymore. We we do sin, we should have an immediate conviction to repent of that sin and continue on. I John offers a great exposition of this to "walk in the light, as He is in the light". Christ is faithful to forgive us our sins.
The problem with Wesley is that he thought we could stop sinning in this life. Jesus said to be perfect, but it was the idea of continually repenting of sin. Not to stop sinning.
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"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: John MacArthur - 7/15/2007 1:13:46 PM
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crankius
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quote:
ORIGINAL: asker
Crankius, you wrote:
quote:
Our works play NO part in our justification before the Lord, because it is only the blood of Christ which can atone for our sins. My works cannot in any way atone for my sin. As a dead person, I cannot do anything of value. All my works are filthy rags.
I do not see how your statement agrees with the most carefully documented salvation principle in all Scripture, that we must repent, which Jesus defined as "stop sinning," prior being justified (I.e. Acts 2:38, 3:19, and 26:17-18).
When Wesley once placed God's required change in behavior (repentance) after justification, he was reprimanded by his church (the Church of England) for "preaching with the Calvinist antinomians." He defended himself by quoting from their articles, but then in a subsequent response corrected himself, quoting from Scripture to show (to agree) that repentance must preceed justification.
Can a dead person fully repent?
If the quality of my repentance brings my justification, then I have room to boast in my salvation.
My repentance comes at conviction of the Holy Spirit and as a result of God opening up my ears and my eyes to see my fallen state. Without God’s work, I would not be capable of repentance. My repentance is not a work of my own, but rather a result of God’s work in me.
Here is the third passage you sited:
quote:
Acts 26:17-18
I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'
Remember that grace is unmerited. If I earn grace by the quality of my repentance, then is it really grace?
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Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: John MacArthur - 7/16/2007 12:43:02 PM
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wintery
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
It's really weird that such alleged "miracles" are rarely to never seen here but some place you don't go and likely haven't seen, you believe they are.
People they trust _tell_ them that it is so. Once it has been said, it gets repeated, person to person, on websites, and more. If your church teaches that miracles are just falling all over the place, you'll snatch at it. A few years ago it was angel stories(and sometimes it still is), which have a similarity to other odd stories. Who can say whether you saw a UFO, Bigfoot, an angel or a leg grow back in Africa? Documentation is either word of mouth or something on camera like, "We will now interview the guy that was dead. Were you dead?" (uninterpreted African language response) "Ah, he says he was dead." Of course, what more proof do we need. God is still God, however let's have something concrete for miracle evidence. Never think that God can't answer prayers but the amount of acceptance for unproven incidents seems out of line.
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
To say they're happening in places where they cannot be examined doesn't really resolve anything. What I am going on is that all of these claims are for things that no body can check up on. If you move them to 3rd world countries, how does that help?
It sure doesn't help when frauds have been caught which causes a negative toward the advance of the gospel. Why would one say that they "minister in gifts of healing" and that miracles happen when they're in a 3rd world country but don't expect them here? If that's where their ministry is, _if_ they really believe that, isn't it time to move to the 3rd world country and see that all the time? God is only working through stadium meetings in the 3rd world? I don't excitedly line up behind a guy who says this.
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RE: John MacArthur - 7/16/2007 7:16:31 PM
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GrahamCracker
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Thank you, wintery. I certainly believe in miracles. But I believe they are extremely rare. So rare in fact, that I do not believe the claims that people often make.
It is much more common for fraud. That has been documented time and again.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: John MacArthur - 7/16/2007 11:32:41 PM
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Koinoniaphite
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Does it really matter what any of us think about MacArthur's teachings? If they are his teachings and not that of the Lord, what good are they? Don't get me wrong, if MacArthur is doing the Lord's will by teaching the Word, then I am in support of his ministry, but MacArthur and his ministry does not validate the Bible in ANY WAY. The Bible is TRUTH and needs no validation by any man.
Too often, I see men and women cling to the teachings of other men and women to the point that they seem to be tossing the Word to the side. Instead of listening to someone teach on the Word, why not pick it up ourselves? It is RIGHT IN FRONT OF ALL OF US! As a good friend of mine from China said, "It saddens me to think that so many of you will forsake the word for the teachings of other men when the teachings of God are right at your fingertips. My friends and family in China yearn to have the Word always available, but have to rely on the teachings of men. I don't get it!" It took me a while, but I'm not getting it either.
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RE: John MacArthur - 7/17/2007 1:58:29 PM
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Olympian
Posts: 35
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posting blind... we can all sum up the big mac's beliefs and approach to ministry in one word: fundamentalist.
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RE: John MacArthur - 7/17/2007 9:57:15 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
posting blind... we can all sum up the big mac's beliefs and approach to ministry in one word: fundamentalist.
And what is wrong with it? He believes the Scripture is fundamental on how the Christian life should be lived
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RE: John MacArthur - 7/18/2007 6:07:08 PM
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GrahamCracker
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
It is RIGHT IN FRONT OF ALL OF US! As a good friend of mine from China said, "It saddens me to think that so many of you will forsake the word for the teachings of other men when the teachings of God are right at your fingertips. My friends and family in China yearn to have the Word always available, but have to rely on the teachings of men. I don't get it!" It took me a while, but I'm not getting it either.
That's odd. God gave us men to minister His word. If people depart from God's word for the teachings of men--teachings apart from God's will--that's a different story.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: John MacArthur - 7/19/2007 2:13:25 AM
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Coach_mm
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Olympian
posting blind... we can all sum up the big mac's beliefs and approach to ministry in one word: fundamentalist.
Please tell me what's wrong with being a fundamentalist...We might have two differnet definitions.
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RE: John MacArthur - 7/19/2007 9:55:00 AM
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Decrease
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Olympian,
I think there is a distinction between Fundamentalism and Old Evangelicalism, at least historically there is. I would deem people like John R. Rice, Billy Sunday, and David Cloud as Fundamentalists. On the other side, I would not think many fundamentalists would think J. Greshem Machen, Martin Lloyd Jones or John Piper as fitting that same mold. MacArthur, I believe I am very safe in saying, would be considered in that vein not in Fundamentalist thinking.
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Soli Deo Gloria
May I Decrease that He may Increase
http://www.thedickensfamily.org
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RE: John MacArthur - 7/19/2007 10:20:38 AM
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michlang
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Decrease
Olympian,
I think there is a distinction between Fundamentalism and Old Evangelicalism, at least historically there is. I would deem people like John R. Rice, Billy Sunday, and David Cloud as Fundamentalists. On the other side, I would not think many fundamentalists would think J. Greshem Machen, Martin Lloyd Jones or John Piper as fitting that same mold. MacArthur, I believe I am very safe in saying, would be considered in that vein not in Fundamentalist thinking.
Although I am not a fundamentalist, I agree with the division you set up (Machen certainly is "the" fundamentalist, ironically, in the presbyterian church--reformed, that is). It's hard to say what MacArthur is, except that he is definitely a dispensationalist, which might not necessarily be a fundamentalist.
From a non-fundamentalist perspective, all of the names you mentioned are "conservative" for all intents and purposes. What separates them from those who do not identify themselves as fundamentalists is their view on the inerrant nature of scripture. With regard to that, MacArthur would certainly come out on the fundamentalist side.
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It may be the case that the preferred philosopher of Bush is Jesus, but it is far from likely that the preferred president of Jesus is a politician who improperly enlists him as an ally in wars against the fundamentalists of other religions.-S. Zabala
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RE: John MacArthur - 7/19/2007 12:50:17 PM
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FREELUTH
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It was once explained to me this way. A fundementalist believes in Jesus because they find him in the Bible.
A non fundimentalist believes the Bible because it tells about Jesus.
Kind of confusing but I think the point is, we should hold Jesus in higher regard than scripture. But we would not know about him with out his word. So it seems to go around in circles. ??????
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My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness.
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RE: John MacArthur - 7/19/2007 3:48:27 PM
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michlang
Posts: 119
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FREELUTH
It was once explained to me this way. A fundementalist believes in Jesus because they find him in the Bible.
A non fundimentalist believes the Bible because it tells about Jesus.
Kind of confusing but I think the point is, we should hold Jesus in higher regard than scripture. But we would not know about him with out his word. So it seems to go around in circles. ??????
Well, Jesus is the Word, the Logos. Karl Barth would say this why the scriptures are the witness to the events of the faith--the scriptures are not more important than Jesus. God revealed God's self.
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It may be the case that the preferred philosopher of Bush is Jesus, but it is far from likely that the preferred president of Jesus is a politician who improperly enlists him as an ally in wars against the fundamentalists of other religions.-S. Zabala
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RE: John MacArthur - 7/19/2007 7:18:16 PM
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Koinoniaphite
Posts: 5
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
It is RIGHT IN FRONT OF ALL OF US! As a good friend of mine from China said, "It saddens me to think that so many of you will forsake the word for the teachings of other men when the teachings of God are right at your fingertips. My friends and family in China yearn to have the Word always available, but have to rely on the teachings of men. I don't get it!" It took me a while, but I'm not getting it either.
That's odd. God gave us men to minister His word. If people depart from God's word for the teachings of men--teachings apart from God's will--that's a different story.
The sad part is that we turn to men we have never, nor will ever meet for that. I guess that makes most of us feel better about the fact that we aren't doing our part to mentor others who are newer to the faith than we are, eh?
Discipleship is horribly broken in America. We need to pray for a fix, then get up and do something about it.
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Death is dead!
Praise the Lord!
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RE: John MacArthur - 7/21/2007 6:28:11 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1854
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Koinoniaphite
The sad part is that we turn to men we have never, nor will ever meet for that. I guess that makes most of us feel better about the fact that we aren't doing our part to mentor others who are newer to the faith than we are, eh?
It's nothing like that at all, from my experience. People who already attend 2-3 services a week and Bible studies are then being asked to attend more? Where would they find the time to make a living and spend time with their families?
Further, I don't know about you but drive time in my city is 2 hours a day for most people, just for work. Even drive time to church is lengthy. It is much easier to listen to Bible teaching via radio or TV.
And people are expected to do some sort of ministry. The staff can't do it all. Ministry is what the life of the church is all about.
quote:
Discipleship is horribly broken in America. We need to pray for a fix, then get up and do something about it.
I profoundly disagree with you there. At least where I am, it is alive and well. I have known churches where the pastor discouraged teaching outside the walls of the church building where he couldn't monitor it. Perhaps that is the sort of thing you're talking about. And I have been in places where people get little by way of true Bible study or teaching. It's usually available.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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