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ORIGINAL: hawkfan428

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The image that you depicted about pro-lifers regarding adoption, abortion-minded women, and single mothers was phony. It served your argument, but was entirely a misrepresentation.

You have obviously had different experencies than I have. Some (not all) pro-lifers I have encountered condemn single mothers for their "loose" morals (but by the same token, appreciated their decision to keep their child). A church that I used to attend would not employ single mothers for that reason. Single mothers could attend the church, but let me tell you, some of the gossipy women of that church would talk so much trash about these single mothers that it was disgusting. And guess what? No abortion-alternative ministry existed at this church! This church was not interested in one. They wanted us to vote Republican. That was their answer to that. What I posted was not some pre-conceived notion. I have seen this with my own eyes, and it disgusted both me and my wife.

While I have seen this with my own eyes, do understand that I'm not saying that all pro-lifers are like that.

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I purposely did not answer your question. I have no obligation to tell you about my charitable activities, but they are various and many.

I asked this because I was trying to gage if you fell into the category that I described above. I think even you would have to admit that it's easier for people to complain and whine about things than to do something about it. I know that there are pro-lifers who do work in these ministries, but others would rather vote Republican and call it good.

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Slavery and abortions are parallel each other in many ways. The exploitation of the weak by the powerful. A sick supreme court siding with exploitation. Republicans on the side of freedom, Democrats on the side of exploitation. Good people fighting the exploitation and the law. Some Christians tolerating or even participating in the exploitation.

Don't be fooled by the Republican party line that they want to truly overturn Roe vs. Wade. In the 2004 election, Bush got 10 million in campaign contributions by the Moral Majority by merely having to say that he opposes abortion. The Republican party is exploiting well-meaning Christians by making empty promises such as overturning Roe vs. Wade. All they care about is your vote. Same goes for Democrats - they want your vote.

Politics is a weird head-game for the voters. The politicians won't let Roe vs. Wade be overturned. The scandal a politician would have if he got his secretary pregnant would be career-ruining. Do you really think they want to eliminate the answer to their scandal troubles? Same goes for a politician whose single daughter gets pregnant. You had better believe that they would want to "take care of the problem".

I also had a friend of mine who's die-hard Republican, ultra-conservative, pro-life, etc. And guess what happened? On 3 separate occasions, he got 3 different girls pregnant. And he coughed up abortion money 3 times because he didn't want to deal with the "hassle" of child support.

Don't rely on politicians to fight a battle for you, that's my point. The line they tow is what big corporation campaign contributors want. That's just the reality of it.

Again, I respect your views on abortion. But trying to get Roe vs. Wade overturned is like spitting on a campfire in the hopes of putting it out. That's why I think churches and ministries need to step up to the plate (which a lot have done already). If we rely on politicians to do it for us, we are merely setting ourselves up.

This will be my last entry here on this thread. I think I have laid out my reasons for not relying on government to take care of this issue, and we will have to agree to disagree on things. Thank you for the spirited debate, and I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors. God Bless!

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Some states would continue to have open season on the unborn, abortion crazy places like NY and California. Some would put in modest restrictions on things like post-viability abortions. A few might try to ban abortions.

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ORIGINAL: tacitus

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Some states would continue to have open season on the unborn, abortion crazy places like NY and California. Some would put in modest restrictions on things like post-viability abortions. A few might try to ban abortions.

See, ljmac, it's this sort of distortion that does your cause no good at all. Roe vs Wade does not stop states from placing restrictions on "post-viability" abortions at all, and never has. In fact, 40 out of 50 states including NY and CA already have laws that go much further than the "modest restrictions" you mention. Did you really not know that?

This is the problem I see with about 90% of your posts. Besides your relentless character assassinations, crude caricatures, and wanton distortion of the views of people who do not full agree with you, you cannot be relied upon to present any facts that are anywhere close to reality. (I would go much further than that if the rules of the forum allowed it.)

People don't listen to emotional, unreliable witnesses. Your one-note rants and crude name calling against anyone who smacks of being liberal are antithetical to the whole ethos of this website. Never in my life have I seen such an attitude as yours from the Christian friends and family I have known in the past 40+ years. I simply do not recognize it.

There is no doubt that you have a passion for your cause, and you *could* be a powerful advocate for it, but all you're doing here is throwing it all away in a barrage of cheap shots and crude distortions, and even though I don't support your cause, I think that is a crying shame.

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ORIGINAL: Closie

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ORIGINAL: ljmac

If one isn't for making abortion illegal, then one is at some smaller level for it. The tolerance of it's legality is necessary for it to thrive.

Will making abortion illegal stop it? Until hearts are changed, please understand that babies will still die. They will be just dead.

Will changing people's hearts stop abortion?

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ORIGINAL: bzirk

I think I posted in this thread a while back, but I don't remember. If I didn't say it already, I think it's possible but I want to qualify that statement. See below.

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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

In response to the topic question....

No...

Supporting murder is not the fruit of the Spirit...

John

I have known Christians (mostly fairly new Christians) who were initially pro-abortion and later convicted by the Holy Spirit about that view. So yes, it's possible.

We do not have perfect understanding at the point of salvation. So there can certainly be a misunderstanding about this and a number of other thrings. Thankfully, the Lord does not let us remain in that kind of thinking.

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ORIGINAL: katydid278

God tells us to not covet they neighbor's anything, yet he Himself says he's a jealous God. He ordered Israelites to murder many people, including women and children (Babies, already born and fully developed).

Not saying anything against God and I don't always agree with him lol but He is who He is.

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is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion?

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ORIGINAL: hawkfan428

Bottom line here: Overturning Roe vs. Wade does nothing to stop the abortion issue. While it may satisfy the "morality utopia" of certain people, it does nothing to address the side issues related to abortion. If you were to do this as stated above, I guarantee you would save at least one life. As one person put it a couple of pages ago in this thread, if one life is saved then the campaign is all worth it. It would apply to abortion-alternative ministries as well.

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ORIGINAL: tacitus

Sound like good suggestions to me. I would add that if the most rabid anti-abortion crusaders on this message board would:

(a) tone down the spite and vitriol launched at anyone they suspect is the least bit in favor of abortion even in the most limited of circumstances;

(b) quit the childish name-calling of any politician or public figure who doesn't come out as 100% anti-abortion,

and

(c) act like a reasonable human being and actually engage in respectful debate with others on this board

then perhaps they would actually have a chance of persuading some of those around here who are not fully anti-abortion that there may be some merit to their argument. They may think believe you are fully justified in calling someone who supports even very limited abortions a baby-killer, when the same old rant is thrown in people's faces day after day, it has no shock value left. It simply confirms in people's mind that the name-callers are raving lunatics, and that there is no point in even trying to engage in a discussion.

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I have no doubt I will get a number of angry replies -- and I know who they'll be from too. But remember, it's hard to open minds when your own mind is welded shut. You may feel that all the rage and anger is justified, and you have every right to feel that way, but to many others it's become nothing but white noise to be ignored and rejected.

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ORIGINAL: P31W

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is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion?

Sure it is!!! I use to be myself before I began to grow in my faith and knowledge of scripture. Before I began to discipline myself so that I could "hear" the Holy Spirit guiding me.

There is a reason why God tells the mature chrisitan to mentor the immature one.

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ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN

wow this topic is even more heated than my opinions about the current presidential election this year.

but anyhoo, has anyone heard of an etopic pregnancy, where the baby gets implanted in the fallopian tubes - the baby will have 100% chance of not surviving, and could kill the mother unless the baby is aborted.

Would this be considered a legitimate reason for abortion, under the eyes of God? or would it be a sin to abort the baby which has no chance of living.

I heard Dr Walt Larimore who is speaking as a Christian doctor, today on Moody bible radio show. (Moody is anti-abortion).. I was surprised to hear that it might be ok to abort an etopic pregnancy which has 0 chance of survival... unless medical science came up with some way to transport the baby who may be like 1 month in the womb, if they could come up with a way to put the baby in an incubator for the next 8 months till he can be born.

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ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22

I remember asking a similar question in morality/ethics. An ectopic can live without killing the mother (or it may kill the mother and live, or it may both kill the mother and die itself), but to many Christians I see that the risk is great enough that abortion is "okay" in that instance.

(It is a big risk, BUT, my point was that they can live and have.) They don't all die or kill the mother. There are healthy babies around who were ectopic pregnancies, and their mothers are sitting right by them. :) I see people say ectopics always miscarry (or are aborted) here, but they can live to viability outside the womb. (That's why I asked in the other forum.) Didn't get many decent answers though. I think perhaps when the risk gets to a certain point to some, then abortion is okay? Either that, or perhaps it's such a commonplace practice even among Christians that it's considered okay/not sinful?

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ORIGINAL: benelchi

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ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22

I remember asking a similar question in morality/ethics. An ectopic can live without killing the mother (or it may kill the mother and live, or it may both kill the mother and die itself), but to many Christians I see that the risk is great enough that abortion is "okay" in that instance.

(It is a big risk, BUT, my point was that they can live and have.) They don't all die or kill the mother. There are healthy babies around who were ectopic pregnancies, and their mothers are sitting right by them. :) I see people say ectopics always miscarry (or are aborted) here, but they can live to viability outside the womb. (That's why I asked in the other forum.) Didn't get many decent answers though. I think perhaps when the risk gets to a certain point to some, then abortion is okay? Either that, or perhaps it's such a commonplace practice even among Christians that it's considered okay/not sinful?

I don't think there is a whole lot of debate about this issue among Christians. When a pregnancy presents a genuine risk to the mother's life and a decision must be made between choosing to risk the mother's life and her baby's life the choice should be made save the life of the mother, and while it is possible for there to be gray areas that can make the validity of this decision difficult, they are very few and far between. Most of the time the "health risk" argument is made, there is very little legitimacy for it i.e. most of the time abortions are performed because of perceived health risks to the mother, it is "mental health" that is being used to excuse an abortion.

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ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22

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ORIGINAL: benelchi

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ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22

I remember asking a similar question in morality/ethics. An ectopic can live without killing the mother (or it may kill the mother and live, or it may both kill the mother and die itself), but to many Christians I see that the risk is great enough that abortion is "okay" in that instance.

(It is a big risk, BUT, my point was that they can live and have.) They don't all die or kill the mother. There are healthy babies around who were ectopic pregnancies, and their mothers are sitting right by them. :) I see people say ectopics always miscarry (or are aborted) here, but they can live to viability outside the womb. (That's why I asked in the other forum.) Didn't get many decent answers though. I think perhaps when the risk gets to a certain point to some, then abortion is okay? Either that, or perhaps it's such a commonplace practice even among Christians that it's considered okay/not sinful?

I don't think there is a whole lot of debate about this issue among Christians. When a pregnancy presents a genuine risk to the mother's life and a decision must be made between choosing to risk the mother's life and her baby's life the choice should be made save the life of the mother, and while it is possible for there to be gray areas that can make the validity of this decision difficult, they are very few and far between. Most of the time the "health risk" argument is made, there is very little legitimacy for it i.e. most of the time abortions are performed because of perceived health risks to the mother, it is "mental health" that is being used to excuse an abortion.

Eh, if one is 100% pro-life, knowing that an ectopic pregnancy can live to viability and both may live... why is it still justified? Once a woman gets to a certain percentage of risk, it's okay? What if it's not an ectopic, but presents just as much risk? I think some of this comes from ectopics always being destined by people to die; some live. What if an ectopic was aborted, but it and the mother would have lived had it not been aborted? Does that not matter to pro-life Christians? Or is the risk factor what's mattering the most to Christians?

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Matthew 7
A Simple Guide for Behavior
1-5 "Don't pick on people, jump on their failures, criticize their faults— unless, of course, you want the same treatment. That critical spirit has a way of boomeranging. It's easy to see a smudge on your neighbor's face and be oblivious to the ugly sneer on your own. Do you have the nerve to say, 'Let me wash your face for you,' when your own face is distorted by contempt? It's this whole traveling road-show mentality all over again, playing a holier-than-thou part instead of just living your part. Wipe that ugly sneer off your own face, and you might be fit to offer a washcloth to your neighbor.

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ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

Thank you for saying this. We are so quick to jump on pet sins that we forget we are just as guilty of sinning. Sin is sin. If anger equals murder towards our brother than we all must be GUILTY. Abortion is not the end all be all of sins.

Someone mentioned spiritual maturity. I suppose when we reach the point that we recognize our own sin without condemning another for their sin, we may be progressing. As long as we continue to judge and condemn we are stagnate. We aren't better than those who have had abortions. We aren't special in God's eyes because we made a different choice.

Let me remind you, that Jesus died for those who have aborted too.

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ORIGINAL: SpiritualPowers

Matthew 7
A Simple Guide for Behavior
1-5 "Don't pick on people, jump on their failures, criticize their faults— unless, of course, you want the same treatment. That critical spirit has a way of boomeranging. It's easy to see a smudge on your neighbor's face and be oblivious to the ugly sneer on your own. Do you have the nerve to say, 'Let me wash your face for you,' when your own face is distorted by contempt? It's this whole traveling road-show mentality all over again, playing a holier-than-thou part instead of just living your part. Wipe that ugly sneer off your own face, and you might be fit to offer a washcloth to your neighbor.

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Stating abortion is murder and against God's word isn't judgment, but simple biblical fact... If a person is a liar they not so because one recites the 10 Commandments, but because they lied...

Yes, that is true and it makes them just as guilty.

John the point being is we are all guilty of transgressing God's law. The only one that is the worst and unforgivable is blasphemy.

Gossiping is as bad as stealing. Slandering is as bad as murder. Envy, strife, drunkenness etc, all offend God. Abortion is no less detestable to Him than vanity.

If only we all could take this same stance against ALL sin, we might actually be a peaceful nation. But as long as one trumps another and people are allowed to point fingers to keep the focus off their own sin, we just won't make progress.

And it is judgment when one is called out and the others are ignored.

We simply can not say one is less offensive to God than another.

_____________________________

"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip

Come visit

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ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

Yes, that is true and it makes them just as guilty.

John the point being is we are all guilty of transgressing God's law. The only one that is the worst and unforgivable is blasphemy.

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Gossiping is as bad as stealing. Slandering is as bad as murder. Envy, strife, drunkenness etc, all offend God. Abortion is no less detestable to Him than vanity.

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If only we all could take this same stance against ALL sin, we might actually be a peaceful nation. But as long as one trumps another and people are allowed to point fingers to keep the focus off their own sin, we just won't make progress.

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And it is judgment when one is called out and the others are ignored.

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We simply can not say one is less offensive to God than another.