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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/30/2008 1:06:16 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2476
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
Just thought I'd add another layer of complexity to this matter - the more we know...
There are also intersex individuals who have normal XY chromosomal arrangements but do not have AIS.
Here's the abstract of the paper I found titled "Wnt4 overexpression disrupts normal testicular vasculature and inhibits testosterone synthesis by repressing steroidogenic factor 1/B-catenin synergy" - Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Vol. 100 No. 19 (10866-10871)
"Genetic studies in mice suggest that Wnt4 signaling antagonizes
expression of male hormones and effectively blocks male development
in the female embryo. We recently identified an XY
intersex patient carrying a chromosomal duplication of the WNT4
locus and proposed that this patient’s feminization arises from an
increased dosage of WNT4. To test this hypothesis, a transgenic
mouse was generated with a large genomic P1 containing the
human WNT4. Although a complete male to female intersex
phenotype was not observed in WNT4 transgenic male mice, a
dramatic reduction in steroidogenic acute regulatory protein
was detected consistent with the marked reduction in serum and
testicular androgen levels. Furthermore, a mild reduction of germ
cells and a disorganized vascular system were observed in testes
of WNT4 transgenic males. Consistent with these in vivo data,
Wnt4 repressed steroidogenesis in adrenocortical and Leydig cell
lines, as evidenced by reduced progesterone secretion and 3-
hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase activity. In vitro studies showed
that Wnt4 antagonizes the functional synergy observed between
the major effector of the Wnt signaling pathway, B-catenin
and steroidogenic factor 1, and chromatin immunoprecipitation
showed that Wnt4 attenuates recruitment of B-catenin to the
steroidogenic acute regulatory protein promoter. Our findings
suggest a model in which Wnt4 acts as an anti-male factor by
disrupting recruitment of B-catenin at or near steroidogenic factor
1 binding sites present in multiple steroidogenic genes."
The point is, there are multiple reasons why one may have a confusing situation as far as gender is concerned.
Indeed. Other things than abnormal sex chromosomes can play a part. Someone can be XY and still have similar problems to someone who is not. If it is the absence of testosterone that tells us to be female (presence of it that tells us to be male), there are a myriad of places for that to be disrupted, turned off, or hindered on many levels, even if someone is XY. The longer I study biology, the more I realize there's so much that goes into everything that happens within us (and the more I realize that one biologist can't know all there is to know). I'd think that embryology would be one of those easy to learn things, but what a person has to go through and do correctly in those eight weeks is a life-long study to some. It's amazing to me, knowing a bit of what has to happen and not happen, that more poeple don't have these kinds of disorders (or any kind, for that matter). I think anyone could appreciate embryology and genetics (and a lot of others)...even if you're not a science nut. :)
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/30/2008 4:25:41 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1054
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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I'm not really up on the clinical aspects of this discussion, but I can tell you all from experience, that when dogs and cats are neutered, they just become sorta like "neutral." They don't then start chasing after members of their own sex. They just lose interest in it altogether after a short time. Now, are they still XX and XY? If so, why? If not, why not? Or are they some other sort of combination? And wouldn't this also hold true of humans? Just curious.............
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
Just thought I'd add another layer of complexity to this matter - the more we know...
There are also intersex individuals who have normal XY chromosomal arrangements but do not have AIS.
Here's the abstract of the paper I found titled "Wnt4 overexpression disrupts normal testicular vasculature and inhibits testosterone synthesis by repressing steroidogenic factor 1/B-catenin synergy" - Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Vol. 100 No. 19 (10866-10871)
"Genetic studies in mice suggest that Wnt4 signaling antagonizes
expression of male hormones and effectively blocks male development
in the female embryo. We recently identified an XY
intersex patient carrying a chromosomal duplication of the WNT4
locus and proposed that this patient’s feminization arises from an
increased dosage of WNT4. To test this hypothesis, a transgenic
mouse was generated with a large genomic P1 containing the
human WNT4. Although a complete male to female intersex
phenotype was not observed in WNT4 transgenic male mice, a
dramatic reduction in steroidogenic acute regulatory protein
was detected consistent with the marked reduction in serum and
testicular androgen levels. Furthermore, a mild reduction of germ
cells and a disorganized vascular system were observed in testes
of WNT4 transgenic males. Consistent with these in vivo data,
Wnt4 repressed steroidogenesis in adrenocortical and Leydig cell
lines, as evidenced by reduced progesterone secretion and 3-
hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase activity. In vitro studies showed
that Wnt4 antagonizes the functional synergy observed between
the major effector of the Wnt signaling pathway, B-catenin
and steroidogenic factor 1, and chromatin immunoprecipitation
showed that Wnt4 attenuates recruitment of B-catenin to the
steroidogenic acute regulatory protein promoter. Our findings
suggest a model in which Wnt4 acts as an anti-male factor by
disrupting recruitment of B-catenin at or near steroidogenic factor
1 binding sites present in multiple steroidogenic genes."
The point is, there are multiple reasons why one may have a confusing situation as far as gender is concerned.
Indeed. Other things than abnormal sex chromosomes can play a part. Someone can be XY and still have similar problems to someone who is not. If it is the absence of testosterone that tells us to be female (presence of it that tells us to be male), there are a myriad of places for that to be disrupted, turned off, or hindered on many levels, even if someone is XY. The longer I study biology, the more I realize there's so much that goes into everything that happens within us (and the more I realize that one biologist can't know all there is to know). I'd think that embryology would be one of those easy to learn things, but what a person has to go through and do correctly in those eight weeks is a life-long study to some. It's amazing to me, knowing a bit of what has to happen and not happen, that more poeple don't have these kinds of disorders (or any kind, for that matter). I think anyone could appreciate embryology and genetics (and a lot of others)...even if you're not a science nut. :)
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/30/2008 6:11:14 PM
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HHV5
Posts: 159
Joined: 7/20/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
I'm not really up on the clinical aspects of this discussion, but I can tell you all from experience, that when dogs and cats are neutered, they just become sorta like "neutral." They don't then start chasing after members of their own sex. They just lose interest in it altogether after a short time. Now, are they still XX and XY? If so, why? If not, why not? Or are they some other sort of combination? And wouldn't this also hold true of humans? Just curious.............
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
Just thought I'd add another layer of complexity to this matter - the more we know...
There are also intersex individuals who have normal XY chromosomal arrangements but do not have AIS.
Here's the abstract of the paper I found titled "Wnt4 overexpression disrupts normal testicular vasculature and inhibits testosterone synthesis by repressing steroidogenic factor 1/B-catenin synergy" - Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Vol. 100 No. 19 (10866-10871)
"Genetic studies in mice suggest that Wnt4 signaling antagonizes
expression of male hormones and effectively blocks male development
in the female embryo. We recently identified an XY
intersex patient carrying a chromosomal duplication of the WNT4
locus and proposed that this patient’s feminization arises from an
increased dosage of WNT4. To test this hypothesis, a transgenic
mouse was generated with a large genomic P1 containing the
human WNT4. Although a complete male to female intersex
phenotype was not observed in WNT4 transgenic male mice, a
dramatic reduction in steroidogenic acute regulatory protein
was detected consistent with the marked reduction in serum and
testicular androgen levels. Furthermore, a mild reduction of germ
cells and a disorganized vascular system were observed in testes
of WNT4 transgenic males. Consistent with these in vivo data,
Wnt4 repressed steroidogenesis in adrenocortical and Leydig cell
lines, as evidenced by reduced progesterone secretion and 3-
hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase activity. In vitro studies showed
that Wnt4 antagonizes the functional synergy observed between
the major effector of the Wnt signaling pathway, B-catenin
and steroidogenic factor 1, and chromatin immunoprecipitation
showed that Wnt4 attenuates recruitment of B-catenin to the
steroidogenic acute regulatory protein promoter. Our findings
suggest a model in which Wnt4 acts as an anti-male factor by
disrupting recruitment of B-catenin at or near steroidogenic factor
1 binding sites present in multiple steroidogenic genes."
The point is, there are multiple reasons why one may have a confusing situation as far as gender is concerned.
Indeed. Other things than abnormal sex chromosomes can play a part. Someone can be XY and still have similar problems to someone who is not. If it is the absence of testosterone that tells us to be female (presence of it that tells us to be male), there are a myriad of places for that to be disrupted, turned off, or hindered on many levels, even if someone is XY. The longer I study biology, the more I realize there's so much that goes into everything that happens within us (and the more I realize that one biologist can't know all there is to know). I'd think that embryology would be one of those easy to learn things, but what a person has to go through and do correctly in those eight weeks is a life-long study to some. It's amazing to me, knowing a bit of what has to happen and not happen, that more poeple don't have these kinds of disorders (or any kind, for that matter). I think anyone could appreciate embryology and genetics (and a lot of others)...even if you're not a science nut. :)
Getting neutered doesn't magically change your chromosomal arrangement; your Y chromosome doesn't suddenly turn into an X chromosome. Getting neutered is not the same as being intersex; intersex determination occurs during embryonic/fetal development.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/30/2008 11:22:38 PM
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tracy1242
Posts: 10
Joined: 7/26/2008
Status: offline
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Who said it was a demonic element? I would tend to agree with that. I think it is very possibly the case. I've sprinkled a little holy water on my husband once in a while to see if it sizzled 
It is definitely sinful. There are people who see spirits and can communicate with the other side, and they seem to think there are many things that can be attributed to a demonic posession.
I have not ruled it out in my husband's case. And now I am going to go where I didn't want to go b/c I know you will just say I am crazy....
I have seen ghosts/spirits and occassional an angel all of my life. I don't see them all the time and I've been to places reportedly haunted and saw nothing, so this is not something I can turn off and on like folks on tv. But since I have been married to my husband there has been a dark figure that hovers or stands near him a lot. My children who also seem to have this sensitivity have seen it. It is dark, looks like it is wearing a cape and a hood. It also can change form and has appeared as crabs crawling all over my middle son and it has also appeared as a little girl. I felt the same intense feeling of its presence when the children and my husband have seen it and that is why I felt it was the same thing. My husband sees the dark figure more than anyone and in numerous locations. Once the dark figure really messed with me at an apartment I stayed at. It can be rather scary. I hate that thing being around. I am going to try to do something about this when my husband and I get back in the same house again (we are reconciling from near divorce, he is seeking Christian counsel).
I've not seen the dark entity when my husband is not around. I do see things, but none of us see what may be described as a demon. I would absolutely love it for my husband to have something done to see about the possibility of a posession.
Even if this is not a posession it is definitely evil and it is Satan having a hand in things as this addiction takes over and ruins the person's life and the lives of those around him. This problem is clearly battle for the soul.
I do think those who come by it genetically somehow, like you guys were talking about is different from my husband, he was not born like this, it was born from abuse and environment as a child. Still I would say the devil caused this affliction in those who come by it naturally and that this is their cross to bare, if they overcome it and are victorious they will get their reward in Heaven. If their sex is ambiguous, then I don't think God can hold it against them if they have to choose, but most cross-dressers and trannies aren't ambiguous in their genes or in their genitalia. They only feel like they would like to be the other sex and they feel that pretty intensely.
If you feel sorry for the people you see on Oprah that makes me sick. You are falling for all the deception. They get on their and tell their sad little story, so one sided. They are self-centered and their thinking is not rational, much like the thinking of an annorexic or any addict. Sure I feel sorry for someone who has ambiguous genitals b/c that would really be hard. If your genitals are female but you feel male, or vice versa, I say stay as you are. Read up about the sex changes....very gross and very problematic afterward for most. A lot of these people really regret it and ultimately realize they are just stuck somewhere in the middle not one sex or the other.
The only answer is to turn to God and follow his Lead by staying in the Word and not allowing Satan to twist and turn things to use you as a tool.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/30/2008 11:34:56 PM
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tracy1242
Posts: 10
Joined: 7/26/2008
Status: offline
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Wow, getting too into science for me.... what is AIS standing for, I have heard this before in my support group from a wife of a transgendered. She thought this may apply to her husband b/c of some reason that his mom had some hormone imbalance in pregnancy or something.
I don't really care much with all of that. I know that most of these guys who do this stuff are 100% male in every way and this is an addiction.
There may be some who are different b/c of some biological reason, but I'm not passing judgement on them. That would be hard if by some freak of nature you are messed up that way. I would just still go with whatever I am most like physically if it were me personally. I mean it would be problematic to have a surgery and it would be hard to pass if you were really more the other sex than they one you wanted to be.
I've heard of the lactating male before. You know in some third world countries men breast feed their babies. I don't know if their testosterone is lower or if they have some estrogen levels that are different or what. But men do breastfeed their babies in some countries when they mother is dead. I found that out looking up breastfeeding when I was preggers.
I guess my husband could have breast fed since he was taking hormones and developing breasts. The idiot offered to breast feed one of our kids and told me men could breast feed. I was like "Gross, no way!" That proves another part of his problem...coveting what another has.
Thou shall not covet. My husband was super jealous when I gave birth and of my bond with the children through breastfeeding. It's the devil messing with his mind and stealing his soul. I would not rule out a demon either, like someone said.
I'm actually worried about living with him again. It's been pretty peaceful for me and the kids without the dark entity. I am going to call someone in TX to help me with this, I know my husband won't go for it, but really, that's probably b/c the demon is with him. He sees ghosts too, so I don't know why he doesn't believe a demon posession can happen.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/31/2008 8:51:38 AM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2476
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
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I see a lot of stuff I'd like to reply to, but I have to go to class. :) I'll say more later. Deb, I just wanted to say that I think since the world isn't perfect anymore, many things happen that shouldn't. Babies are born without genitals...without various body parts or defective ones.... a ton of things. Some babies are born brainless with basically an open head at the top. I can't say I think God makes people "freaks," but it happens.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/31/2008 8:53:31 AM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2476
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
I don't really care much with all of that. I know that most of these guys who do this stuff are 100% male in every way and this is an addiction.
Have you tested "most of these guys" to SEE if they have a problem, or is this just your own opinion or judgment? You seem to do a lot of judging about "most" of these men and state facts that are unfounded, but where is your proof other than what you think (or what you have experienced yourself)? Nowhere have I seen that most of these men actually try to figure out if they have a problem or not. If you have a large-scale study, I'd love to take a look. As far as I know, there have been none.
And a big part of the problem (IMO) is that too many Christians "don't really care much with all of that." I think we should. We should care, because these are people too-- people with problems, and not everyone fits your opinion or personal experiences with this. I'm not sure how you know that "most" of them don't have a biological/genetic/hormonal/intrinsic problem, but if you have such a wealth of facts that no one else does, could you share?
< Message edited by solo_soprano22 -- 7/31/2008 9:15:46 AM >
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/31/2008 9:03:47 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4099
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
So how do you include God in that statement? Do you think God creates "freaks of nature."
Just wondering. There are children born with all kinds of birth defects; internal organs missing, fingers growing in the wrong places, even missing brains. Did God create them that way?
We live in a fallen world and things get messed up because of it.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/31/2008 9:27:03 AM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1054
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
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OK, we should care. If we do care, what can we do about it? We can pray, we can throw money at the problem, and we can be nice to those who are afflicted through no fault of their own. What do you (or any of you reading this thread) propose we do?
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
And a big part of the problem (IMO) is that too many Christians "don't really care much with all of that." I think we should. We should care, because these are people too-- people with problems, and not everyone fits your opinion or personal experiences with this. I'm not sure how you know that "most" of them don't have a biological/genetic/hormonal/intrinsic problem, but if you have such a wealth of facts that no one else does, could you share?
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/31/2008 10:42:05 AM
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stampinlady
Posts: 1542
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Northern IL
Status: offline
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quote:
There are children born with all kinds of birth defects; internal organs missing, fingers growing in the wrong places, even missing brains. Did God create them that way?
We live in a fallen world and things get messed up because of it.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
I had a problem with the other poster calling these "freaks' of nature" and I was wondering if she believed God created them like that.
Thanks for posting those verses. Can you explain them a little?
_____________________________
Deb
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/31/2008 10:53:02 AM
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HHV5
Posts: 159
Joined: 7/20/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
quote:
There are children born with all kinds of birth defects; internal organs missing, fingers growing in the wrong places, even missing brains. Did God create them that way?
We live in a fallen world and things get messed up because of it.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
I had a problem with the other poster calling these "freaks' of nature" and I was wondering if she believed God created them like that.
Thanks for posting those verses. Can you explain them a little?
I was a bit taken aback as well, but I don't think she meant offense at the term. However, we should be cognizant of the impact a seemingly innocuous phrase can have.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/31/2008 1:04:47 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4099
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
Thanks for posting those verses. Can you explain them a little? My intrepretation (for what it is worth) on Rom 8.20-22 is this: when Adam fell he plunged this whole creation into a downward spiral. Things tend to go from bad to worse. We await our own finalized redemption with the return of our Lord, and creation itself also longs for that day as it will be freed from the bonds of our fallenness.
That bondage to the negative is why we have anomalies and "freaks of nature." Anyway, as I said, this is only my opinion on the matter.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/31/2008 3:17:12 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2476
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
quote:
There are children born with all kinds of birth defects; internal organs missing, fingers growing in the wrong places, even missing brains. Did God create them that way?
We live in a fallen world and things get messed up because of it.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
I had a problem with the other poster calling these "freaks' of nature" and I was wondering if she believed God created them like that.
Thanks for posting those verses. Can you explain them a little?
I don't like to call them freaks (or anyone who is born with some kind of anomaly). I try to use a term that doesn't have such a negative connotation to it. :)
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/31/2008 4:12:25 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2476
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
OK, we should care. If we do care, what can we do about it? We can pray, we can throw money at the problem, and we can be nice to those who are afflicted through no fault of their own. What do you (or any of you reading this thread) propose we do?
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
And a big part of the problem (IMO) is that too many Christians "don't really care much with all of that." I think we should. We should care, because these are people too-- people with problems, and not everyone fits your opinion or personal experiences with this. I'm not sure how you know that "most" of them don't have a biological/genetic/hormonal/intrinsic problem, but if you have such a wealth of facts that no one else does, could you share?
Well, I was trying to say not to be purposefully ignorant, especially with something like this...and especially Christians. I'm not sure we'll ever come to an agreement about what they are to do, or agree on what can be right and wrong for them (I'm sure not every Christian will agree on what someone with AIS or who is generally intersexed for some reason can and cannot do morally). My point was, we know some things about biological basis with this (in some people); so then we turn around and say that even though there is biology/biochemistry involved that we don't really care that much with all of that? Honestly, I can't see that Jesus wants us Christians' attitudes toward it to be that way, especially when the person literally cannot help how they turned out biologically. 
I think we should invest in research, which is extremely expensive, but every researcher's lab has its focus; some do choose to study this and learn about it in order to attempt to correct what has gone wrong in some instances-- and to see if it can be corrected at all. So, there is already money invested to some degree. What I don't want to see Christians do anymore is to deny that some people can and do have a biological basis...whether it's because they choose to be ignorant or not care about it. Being ignorant doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist; then I see some Christians turn around and say it's all that person's fault no matter what.
I see some Christians who have a good attitude towards them though, but I think all of us need to. I believe we need to accept them (and not treat them like freaks of nature), and listen to them. Many of them (I see) are hurting, but people many times don't want to understand...and it's sad that some of those very people are Christians. They all need to be prayed for (but so does everyone).
I'm not necessarily saying we need to do something about it, but to deny that there are people out there who are this way because of something outside their control doesn't help. Choosing not to learn about something doesn't make it irrelevant. I could choose to not learn about the p53 gene and its role in cancer formation (in other words, I could just choose not to know at all)... but does that make the fact it has a role in cancer suddenly irrelevant? No. It might be irrelevant to me because I simply chose not to learn. (In reality, I don't ignore this gene.  )
I still do hold the opinion that many, if not most, of these kinds of people/behaviors do have a biological/chemical basis in that person, whether it's in the brain, body, DNA or elsewhere. But that is something we'll never be able to determine.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/31/2008 7:23:00 PM
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tracy1242
Posts: 10
Joined: 7/26/2008
Status: offline
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Do I think God creates a "freak of nature". I knew someone would get stuck on that.
NO. How should I know why bad things happen such as birth defects. I assume since life begins at conception so do bad things that happen in life. My daughter was born with a birth defect which was nearly fatal and my son also has a birth defect which causes him problems to this day.
I don't think God did that to my children. I don't think he made them suffer.
There is a good book, "When God Doesn't Make Sense" it's all about when bad things happen how it is hard to see God in all of it.
Certainly chemicals could do something to a person during development. There may be all kinds of environmental factors. My friend who works at a hospital that takes in all kinds of babies from Mexico with birth defects here in the US says that the babies from Mexico are this way due to enviromental factors (?????) I don't know if that is true or not. But she's like the other gal that posts on this thread and very into biology.
I know in the Bible there are examples of demonic posession, I do still think this causes physical ailments, but I am not knowing all about it, just think that is possible.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/31/2008 7:45:59 PM
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tracy1242
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Joined: 7/26/2008
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But anyway, the main reason I posted on this thread is to say that I think cross-dressing and changing your sex (which you really can't do) is sinful. For simplicity sake I will just say that I am talking about folks who are male or female and not something biologically undeterminable.
I've heard of many cross-dressers and trannies saying they may be somewhere on some spectrum of gender but they don't get any proof of this, they just want to do what they want and all of us to accept it regardless of the consequences to the rest of us.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 8/1/2008 11:59:38 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4099
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracy1242
But anyway, the main reason I posted on this thread is to say that I think cross-dressing and changing your sex (which you really can't do) is sinful. I think most of us here are in agreement with that. quote:
For simplicity sake I will just say that I am talking about folks who are male or female and not something biologically undeterminable. "For simplicity's sake" is why bringing up the exceptional cases is so controversial. No one wants to deal with them and these are real people that should not just be written off.
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Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 8/1/2008 12:51:35 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1054
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
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In case it was missed, I asked what we could do about it. See my post #610 on this page.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracy1242
But anyway, the main reason I posted on this thread is to say that I think cross-dressing and changing your sex (which you really can't do) is sinful. I think most of us here are in agreement with that. quote:
For simplicity sake I will just say that I am talking about folks who are male or female and not something biologically undeterminable. "For simplicity's sake" is why bringing up the exceptional cases is so controversial. No one wants to deal with them and these are real people that should not just be written off.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 8/1/2008 1:39:35 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4099
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
OK, we should care. If we do care, what can we do about it? We can pray, we can throw money at the problem, and we can be nice to those who are afflicted through no fault of their own. What do you (or any of you reading this thread) propose we do? Pray? Absolutely.
I am not sure what "thowing money" would do, as far as the church is concerned.
How exactly do you propose to "be nice?" Not throw rocks at them, sure, either physical or spiritual. But assuming they do not have the gift of celebacy (and most don't) saying "be warmed and be filled" does not help them much. The hard work of biblical research, prayer, etc needs to be done to give them the answer of who they can morally marry.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 8/1/2008 8:34:46 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2476
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
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Part of my point is, who really knows who is exceptional? The very ones one labels exceptional, might really be the majority. Who knows which group is the minority and which isn't?
There's much we don't know, but why are people so certain that those with valid problems are not those who comprise the majority here? (If it's opinion, I understand that. Everyone is entitled.)
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 8/3/2008 8:22:00 AM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 18135
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Just Outside of Boston
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Hey, now here is a different question, is it wrong if a performer dresses up in drag just for fun as in a video? Both "Weird Al" Yankovic and Steve Taylor have done this. Just wondering.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 8/4/2008 10:39:45 AM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1054
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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I think that's entirely different from what we're discussing here. We're discussing those who get some sort of sexual arousal from dressing up or feel trapped in the body of the wrong sex, etc. Playing a role, i.e. as in a movie, is different, in my opinion.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
Hey, now here is a different question, is it wrong if a performer dresses up in drag just for fun as in a video? Both "Weird Al" Yankovic and Steve Taylor have done this. Just wondering.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 8/4/2008 12:04:35 PM
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DaveW
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