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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 6/1/2006 3:14:33 PM
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bekalc
Posts: 214
Joined: 5/3/2005
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John of the Cross (I believe it was) said that death is immanent for us all.... The world may or may not be coming to an end soon. But does it really matter to us humans. Whether Jesus comes 100 or 50 years from now. We all know that by 100 years, He will at the very least be coming for us individuals, if not sooner.
So, I think we really need to focus on that one!
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 6/1/2006 3:54:37 PM
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parousia70
Posts: 163
Joined: 5/29/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheProfessor
Oh, okay.....China doesn't have enough people to make a 200 million man army....the population statistics are wrong.
Well, the Global equine population statistics don't lie.
Remember professor, the 200 million man army is prophesied to be on HORSEBACK.
At the current exponential rate of equine population increase, there will not be 200 million horses on earth until about the year 3450, so we're a long way off from seeing that come to pass.
Unless of course you don't take that part of the prophesy literally.
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 6/1/2006 3:55:40 PM
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TheProfessor
Posts: 179
Joined: 11/5/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: parousia70
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheProfessor
Oh, okay.....China doesn't have enough people to make a 200 million man army....the population statistics are wrong.
Well, the Global equine population statistics don't lie.
Remember professor, the 200 million man army is prophesied to be on HORSEBACK.
At the current exponential rate of equine population increase, there will not be 200 million horses on earth until about the year 3450, so we're a long way off from seeing that come to pass.
Unless of course you don't take that part of the prophesy literally.
Have you ever seen the description of the horses????
He's obviously describing modern vehicles in the only way he could.
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 6/1/2006 4:03:04 PM
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parousia70
Posts: 163
Joined: 5/29/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheProfessor
Have you ever seen the description of the horses????
He's obviously describing modern vehicles in the only way he could.
So you say they aren't literal horses and that that John uses horses as a METAPHORE for something else?
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 6/1/2006 4:11:43 PM
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TheProfessor
Posts: 179
Joined: 11/5/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: parousia70
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheProfessor
Have you ever seen the description of the horses????
He's obviously describing modern vehicles in the only way he could.
So you say they aren't literal horses and that that John uses horses as a METAPHORE for something else?
Obviously they are not literal.....have you ever seen a horse like that?
John is simply describing something he is seeing as well as he can with the language he is privy to.
And there is nothing wrong with a metaphor, unless the concept is used to negate the reality of Christ's return and the reality of the last days in scripture.
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 6/9/2006 2:22:49 PM
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Ben-T
Posts: 39
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China cannot make such an army, no. They have not the funds to raise, train, or equip such an army, to feed the soldiers, et cetera. They have not the vehicles to transport them to the River Jordan. They have not an officer corps of sufficient size to create an efficient chain of command for such an army. And, above all else, a two hundred million man army in today's world would be strategic suicide. It would overextend itself, crash its supply lines, be completely open to an enemy with even modest air power, and just generaly far too large to be wielded in an efficient way.
China may very well be the two hundred million man army, their population statistics do make them a good candidate, I must say. But MODERN China, is not the two hundred million man army.
I definitely agree with TheProfessor about the horses though.
quote:
Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed; by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths. For their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.
Horsemen in hard metal breastplates breathing fire? This refers to artillery or armored warfare, as we understand it today. It also makes perfect sense, considering the terrain. The flast deserts of the Middle East make it ideal for huge scale tank battles. See the tank battles between the US Army and the Republican Guard during Operation Desert Storm, or the tank battles between Israel and Syria in the Yom Kippur War. When the End Times come, I wouldn't be surprised if it is marked by massive tank battles.
It also could be interpreted to refer to modern missile systems. Especially, when one considers that it will cill a third of mankind, it conjures the image of nuclear warfare.
Then again, the most likely possibility in my mind, is that the horses describe some sort of terrible weaponry that mankind has yet to develop. I don't know if there are any fellow fans of military science fiction here, but that sounds a lot like an orbital strike to me.
< Message edited by Ben-T -- 6/9/2006 2:37:35 PM >
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/2/2006 8:04:58 PM
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Hagnismos
Posts: 25
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I think there is alot of evidence that the fulfillment of the Book of Revelation is approaching, does that mean next year? Does it mean 50 years from now? There is a prophecy in the Bible that is typically understood to mean that the generation of Jews who see the rebirth of the nation of Israel will not pass away until all things are fulfilled. If by that is meant adults at the time 1947, perhaps 13 year olds, and if one survives to be 90 then we are talking 2037. I don't know who God's accountant is, or what type of arithmetic is being used there but it is not far fetched to think that the other signs are actually that. Also scientificaly climate change, peak oil and bird flu are all events expected in the future of apocalyptic scale. Looking at all that together leaves me very convinced that the cards have been dealt and some time this half century Jesus will return. Of course I do not know the day or the hour. But given how dark the world is already I hope it is not much longer.
The catholic church is contained in the seven churches figuratively. It is also said the last pope will be the false prophet (and that is suggested by catholic prophecy, St. Malachi). I think the Bible is clear that the vast majority of those who do not go up in the Rapture will side with the Antichrist. I'm sure there will be both real and fake Christians (Catholics) on Earth during that time.
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/2/2006 10:10:21 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1970
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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In my view the antichrist does not come from the RCC, but the false prophet will and he will be maybe the next pope. The false prophet will support the AC and build a religion around him. I think this religion will be a marriage between RCC and maybe something like Islam.
Yes the RCC is built on a lie and many souls have passed on, not knowing Christ. The church has changed its image today and you do see Christians within the RCC, but not many. What do you call someone who claims to be God on earth, can forgive sin and condemn people to hell?
In Christ!
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/3/2006 4:26:48 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
In my view the antichrist does not come from the RCC, but the false prophet will and he will be maybe the next pope. The false prophet will support the AC and build a religion around him. I think this religion will be a marriage between RCC and maybe something like Islam.
Yes the RCC is built on a lie and many souls have passed on, not knowing Christ. The church has changed its image today and you do see Christians within the RCC, but not many. What do you call someone who claims to be God on earth, can forgive sin and condemn people to hell?
In Christ!
Where does the Pope claim to be God? Where has a Pope ever condemned anyone to hell?
That said, it was Jesus Himself who gave the apostles and their successors the authority to forgive sins in His name.
The more I read the scriptures and the more I pray, the more I realize that the Catholic Church is indeed what it claims to be, the Church founded by Christ of which the very gates of hell cannot stand against.
What lie is the Church supposedly based on?
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/3/2006 5:03:02 PM
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Hagnismos
Posts: 25
Joined: 3/22/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
In my view the antichrist does not come from the RCC, but the false prophet will and he will be maybe the next pope. The false prophet will support the AC and build a religion around him. I think this religion will be a marriage between RCC and maybe something like Islam.
Yes the RCC is built on a lie and many souls have passed on, not knowing Christ. The church has changed its image today and you do see Christians within the RCC, but not many. What do you call someone who claims to be God on earth, can forgive sin and condemn people to hell?
In Christ!
Where does the Pope claim to be God? Where has a Pope ever condemned anyone to hell?
That said, it was Jesus Himself who gave the apostles and their successors the authority to forgive sins in His name.
The more I read the scriptures and the more I pray, the more I realize that the Catholic Church is indeed what it claims to be, the Church founded by Christ of which the very gates of hell cannot stand against.
What lie is the Church supposedly based on?
Doctrines which are questionable when one excludes the apocryphal writings are:
1) Transubstantiation
2) Pope as the Vicar of Christ
3) Mary as co-Redemtrix
4) Pergatory
5) Celibacy of Priests and Nuns (which may have actually led to the sex scandals of recent memory)
6) The sale of indulgences
As for the keys of the forgiveness issue, the verse you are referring to means more literally that the believers will be qualified to judge whether someone is in Christ or not and that if they decide on earth that a person is not of God it will be the very same judgment that is known in heaven. The qualifier is that the church must be right with God itself for such discernment to work. once a body drifts off from God they make all sort os judgments that have no heavenly authority whatsoever, but somehow because of the times, these same churches end up persectuing those who oppose them on Earth.
The above list already included some of the sins of the RCC, but I should not forget to mention
7) The Inquisition
8) The Crusades
9) And some failure to act and collution in the Holocaust, for which JPII offered an apology.
Finally it is still well know among Protestants that the RCC considers itself the one true church and that all who oppose are considered lost, ecumenicism was taken on by many bishiops as a way of re-uniting the one true church. It personally seems to me to be a typical type of sin that started the whole controversy, some-time back in the third century the Bishops of Rome were tempted by their own egos to try to take supremacy of the Church itself. They therefore found a verse that justified their aims and added to it as was needed, shake well and suddenly Rome is the spiritual center of the Universe. There is no scriptural evidence that this was true, and no historical evidence that it was intended by the Holy Spirit through the Apostles before their deaths.
That about says it all. But now today we have to accept the RCC for what it is and expect that if a person be RCC or not, their life will reflect the character of Christ if in fact they are saved.
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/3/2006 5:14:37 PM
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joefen
Posts: 109
Joined: 8/28/2006
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Ever notice how the length of 'this generation' is growing before our eyes?? 40 yrs has always been the accepted length of time for a generation. That's why all the rapturist were gearing up for 1988 (1948 formation +40 yrs). Well, that came and went, so they moved the start date to 1967, which puts the rapture at 2007. Well, no sign of a rebuilt temple on the horizon, and although every daily headline is interpreted as another fulfillment of something, 2007 will come and go also.
So now, we get a stretching of generation to 'keep hope alive' as someone once said. Now a generation is the full lifespan of an adult from 13-90?
If you want to find out what 'this generation' of Matt 24:34 means, why not look at all the other times 'this generation' (Gr. genea) was used in the Gospels alone. (Matthew 1:17; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36; 24:34; Mark 8:12, 38; 9:19; 13:30; Luke 1:48, 50; 7:31; 9:41; 11:29, 30, 31, 32, 50, 51; 18:8; 17:25; 21:32.) Specifically, look how Jesus used the word just before using it in the Olivet discourse when He was excoriating the scribes and pharisees in the Temple in Matt 23:
Matt23:32 "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' [guilt.] 33 "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 "Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: [some] of them you will kill and crucify, and [some] of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation [genea]. .
Peace to you all.
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/3/2006 5:16:09 PM
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Hagnismos
Posts: 25
Joined: 3/22/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: parousia70
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheProfessor
Oh, okay.....China doesn't have enough people to make a 200 million man army....the population statistics are wrong.
Well, the Global equine population statistics don't lie.
Remember professor, the 200 million man army is prophesied to be on HORSEBACK.
At the current exponential rate of equine population increase, there will not be 200 million horses on earth until about the year 3450, so we're a long way off from seeing that come to pass.
Unless of course you don't take that part of the prophesy literally.
Yeah that would probably not be literally, but who knows by that point in the tribulation horses may be the only way to get around.
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/3/2006 5:25:51 PM
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Hagnismos
Posts: 25
Joined: 3/22/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: joefen
Ever notice how the length of 'this generation' is growing before our eyes?? 40 yrs has always been the accepted length of time for a generation. That's why all the rapturist were gearing up for 1988 (1948 formation +40 yrs). Well, that came and went, so they moved the start date to 1967, which puts the rapture at 2007. Well, no sign of a rebuilt temple on the horizon, and although every daily headline is interpreted as another fulfillment of something, 2007 will come and go also.
So now, we get a stretching of generation to 'keep hope alive' as someone once said. Now a generation is the full lifespan of an adult from 13-90?
If you want to find out what 'this generation' of Matt 24:34 means, why not look at all the other times 'this generation' (Gr. genea) was used in the Gospels alone. (Matthew 1:17; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36; 24:34; Mark 8:12, 38; 9:19; 13:30; Luke 1:48, 50; 7:31; 9:41; 11:29, 30, 31, 32, 50, 51; 18:8; 17:25; 21:32.) Specifically, look how Jesus used the word just before using it in the Olivet discourse when He was excoriating the scribes and pharisees in the Temple in Matt 23:
Matt23:32 "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' [guilt.] 33 "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 "Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: [some] of them you will kill and crucify, and [some] of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation [genea]. .
Peace to you all.
It seems clear that you are some type of pretearist. Fine, you beleive what you like. but at least state it up front. It's just courtesy. Trying to draw people to your point of view by questions that lead nowhere near your stand unless you have special interpretations of them is just a waste of people's time. Whatever you believe just say it! I think it is completely unrealistic to see in Scripture a notion that all things were fulfiled before 70 AD. It makes no sense because the world is not perfected, not by a long shot, and the true church does not rule. . . . . As far as I can tell pretearism falls under Paul's admonishen in Colossians to watch for people who get hung up on pet doctrine not essential to salvation.
Does you point of view matter for salvation? So then stand on it or don't, but don't skulk around and sell your ideas to the uninformed as though discovered Eldorado.
Patience is one thing but rebuking error is another. But then we don;t even know what you believe Joefen, you refuse to come out of the shadows and state it plainly.
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/3/2006 7:02:54 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hagnismos
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
In my view the antichrist does not come from the RCC, but the false prophet will and he will be maybe the next pope. The false prophet will support the AC and build a religion around him. I think this religion will be a marriage between RCC and maybe something like Islam.
Yes the RCC is built on a lie and many souls have passed on, not knowing Christ. The church has changed its image today and you do see Christians within the RCC, but not many. What do you call someone who claims to be God on earth, can forgive sin and condemn people to hell?
In Christ!
Where does the Pope claim to be God? Where has a Pope ever condemned anyone to hell?
That said, it was Jesus Himself who gave the apostles and their successors the authority to forgive sins in His name.
The more I read the scriptures and the more I pray, the more I realize that the Catholic Church is indeed what it claims to be, the Church founded by Christ of which the very gates of hell cannot stand against.
What lie is the Church supposedly based on?
Doctrines which are questionable when one excludes the apocryphal writings are:
1) Transubstantiation
Odd, I see it quite plainly in John 6.
quote:
2) Pope as the Vicar of Christ
"And I tell you that you are Peter (Kephas), and on this rock(Kepha) I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Hrmm. Sure looks like Jesus was making Peter into a person authorized to act in His name... Almost like a vicar or something. And vicarhood is an office, not a person, so I'd think that there could be successors to this office.
quote:
3) Mary as co-Redemptrix
A bit too much to explain in brief, but we do have several threads talking about the Theotokos' place in the plan of salvation. Just check the Catholic discussions index. :)
quote:
4) Purgatory
Well it was in the scriptures until Martin Luther took them out because it contradicted him. Nevertheless it's still evident in the scriptures. A great piece talking about it is here.
quote:
5) Celibacy of Priests and Nuns (which may have actually led to the sex scandals of recent memory)
Going on pure statistics, you're actually much more likely to be abused by Protestant minister, or even a regular school teacher. And I don't seem to recall those occupations to be mostly composed of celibate people...
That said, there's plenty of scriptures to support the idea of a celibate lifestyle. Another great link talking about it (with lots of scriptural support) is here
quote:
6) The sale of indulgences
Never happened.
there were abuses of the practice, but those were quickly condemned. A nice primer on indulgences can be found here.
quote:
As for the keys of the forgiveness issue, the verse you are referring to means more literally that the believers will be qualified to judge whether someone is in Christ or not and that if they decide on earth that a person is not of God it will be the very same judgment that is known in heaven. The qualifier is that the church must be right with God itself for such discernment to work. once a body drifts off from God they make all sort os judgments that have no heavenly authority whatsoever, but somehow because of the times, these same churches end up persectuing those who oppose them on Earth.
Odd, that doesn't quite square with the the first 1000 years of Christianity taught. In fact, it's almost the opposite. So... You can understand if I'm a bit skeptical of that claim.
quote:
The above list already included some of the sins of the RCC, but I should not forget to mention
7) The Inquisition
Which one? You do know there's one actually going on right now, right? :) That said, the myths surrounding the inquisition are widely overblown. I've seen figures where the supposed amount of people killed during the inquisitions actually outnumbered the entire population of europe at the time.
quote:
8) The Crusades
Entirely justified. For more information read here.
quote:
9) And some failure to act and collution in the Holocaust, for which JPII offered an apology.
The Catholic Church (and more specifically, Blessed Pope Pius XII) is rightfully credited with saving close to 700,000 Jews during the Second World War.
There's several books talking about it, but a great start is found here.
quote:
Finally it is still well know among Protestants that the RCC considers itself the one true church and that all who oppose are considered lost, ecumenicism was taken on by many bishiops as a way of re-uniting the one true church. It personally seems to me to be a typical type of sin that started the whole controversy, some-time back in the third century the Bishops of Rome were tempted by their own egos to try to take supremacy of the Church itself. They therefore found a verse that justified their aims and added to it as was needed, shake well and suddenly Rome is the spiritual center of the Universe. There is no scriptural evidence that this was true, and no historical evidence that it was intended by the Holy Spirit through the Apostles before their deaths.
There's considerable evidence that the Bishops of Rome were held in high regard predating the third century. And while the Catholic Church does consider itself to be THE Church founded by Christ, they have taken great pains to explain their relationship with the Protestant Churches and indeed, acknowledges the majority of Protestants as Christians. Heck, the document of Lumen Gentium talks on this subject with great depth.
quote:
That about says it all. But now today we have to accept the RCC for what it is and expect that if a person be RCC or not, their life will reflect the character of Christ if in fact they are saved.
You know, I used to feel exaclty the same way about the Catholic Church. I felt that they were an abomination and a corruption of the Truth. But I was challenged to examine the teachings of the Church throughout history and not just listen to what people said about the Church, but to examine these claims. To my wonderment and joyous surprise, after several years of studying the claims of the Church, the history and the claims of those who oppose the Church, I came to believe that the Church is what she claims to be. But certainly don't take my words. Go and read the Church's response to these claims, check out the history books, and read the writings of the Early Church, see for yourself. You might be surprised.
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/3/2006 7:10:44 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1970
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Hi Luker,
1) "We the Archbishops and Bishops of Ireland, prostrate at the feet of your Holiness, humbly offer you our warmest congratulations on the occasion of the Golden Jubilee of your ordination to the priesthood… our thoughts go back to that great event fifty years ago by which your Holiness was taken from amongst men and appointed for men in the things that pertain to God, was made a minister of Christ and a dispenser of His mysteries, received power over the real and mystical body of our Saviour and became a mediator between God and man - another Christ." Address to Pope Pius Xll in 1949:-
2) Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) wrote: "We may according to the fullness of our power, dispose of the law and dispense above the law. Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God." (1 Book of Gregory 9 Decret. c.3)
3) The Lateran Council addressing Pope Julius II in an oration delivered by Marcellus said: "Take care that we lose not that salvation, that life and breath which thou hast given us, for thou art our shepherd, thou art our physician, thou art our governor, thou art our husbandman, thou art finally another God on earth." (Council Edition. Colm. Agrip. 1618)
4) The Lateran Council addressing Pope Julius II in an oration delivered by Marcellus said: "Take care that we lose not that salvation, that life and breath which thou hast given us, for thou art our shepherd, thou art our physician, thou art our governor, thou art our husbandman, thou art finally another God on earth." (Council Edition. Colm. Agrip. 1618)
5) The RC New York catechism states: "The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth…by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth."
These are but a few claims of the pope being God.
Regarding sin, there is only one way to have forgiveness of sin and that is through the acceptance of Jesus Christ, to believe he is the Son of God. Without Christ there is no forgiveness of any sin. God forgives sin, not the pope.
In Christ!
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/3/2006 7:16:58 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1970
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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The Church Forgives Sins
Catholicism teaches that it has the power and authority to forgive people's sins. Here are a few quotes from the Catechism. (Please note that whenever the Catechism mentions the "Church," it is referring to the "Roman Catholic church"):
"There is no offense, however serious, that the Church cannot forgive." Pg. 256, #982
"By Christ's will, the Church possesses the power to forgive the sins of the baptized..." Pg. 257, #986
"The Church, who through the bishop and his priests forgives sins in the name of Jesus Christ..." Pg. 363-364, #1448
Does the Catholic church have power to forgive sins? Let's see what the Scriptures say:
"Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7
"And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." Ephesians 4:32
According to Scripture, God wants His children to come straight to Him for forgiveness of sins, not to a church:
"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." Hebrews 4:16
This verse loudly proclaims that forgiveness of sins comes from God's throne, not from a church. Still, Catholicism teaches a contrary doctrine:
"Indeed bishops and priests, by virtue of the sacrament of Holy Orders, have the power to forgive all sins 'in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.' " Pg. 367, #1461
"The Church must be able to forgive all penitents their offenses, even if they should sin until the last moment of their lives." Pg. 255, #979
However, this man-made doctrine contradicts God' s written Word. Many Bible characters freely approached God's throne for forgiveness of sins. The psalmist went straight to God:
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee... I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin..." Psalm 32:5
King David went directly to God to ask forgiveness for his sins:
"Look upon mine affliction and my pain; and forgive all my sins." Psalm 25:18
In Psalm 51, David asks God for forgiveness again:
"Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight..." Psalm 51:2,4
King Solomon was also aware that he and all the children of Israel could go straight to God to receive forgiveness for their sins:
"Hearken therefore unto the supplications of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, which they shall make toward this place: hear thou from thy dwelling place, even from heaven; and when thou hearest, forgive." 2 Chronicles 6:21
God tells people to come to Him for forgiveness:
"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." 2 Chronicles 7:14
God never requires anyone to go through a church to receive forgiveness for their sins.
"For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee." Psalm 86:5
"... if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye." Colossians 3:13
Why then would the Catholic church insist that forgiveness of sins is only available through her? The following Catechism quote provides the answer:
" Were there no forgiveness of sins in the Church, there would be no hope of life to come or eternal liberation. Let us thank God who has given his Church such a gift." Pg. 256, #983
Rather than looking to Jesus for forgiveness of sins and eternal life, Roman Catholics are taught that their sins can only be forgiven through the Catholic church. Whether intentional or not, this doctrine keeps people in bondage to the Catholic church.
Conclusion
Once again, God' s Word stands on one side, while the traditions of men stand on the other. God says He alone forgives sins, while Catholic tradition contends that the Catholic church has the power to forgive sins. Which side will you choose?
In Christ!
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/3/2006 9:40:01 PM
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Hagnismos
Posts: 25
Joined: 3/22/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi Luker,
1) "We the Archbishops and Bishops of Ireland, prostrate at the feet of your Holiness, humbly offer you our warmest congratulations on the occasion of the Golden Jubilee of your ordination to the priesthood… our thoughts go back to that great event fifty years ago by which your Holiness was taken from amongst men and appointed for men in the things that pertain to God, was made a minister of Christ and a dispenser of His mysteries, received power over the real and mystical body of our Saviour and became a mediator between God and man - another Christ." Address to Pope Pius Xll in 1949:-
2) Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) wrote: "We may according to the fullness of our power, dispose of the law and dispense above the law. Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God." (1 Book of Gregory 9 Decret. c.3)
3) The Lateran Council addressing Pope Julius II in an oration delivered by Marcellus said: "Take care that we lose not that salvation, that life and breath which thou hast given us, for thou art our shepherd, thou art our physician, thou art our governor, thou art our husbandman, thou art finally another God on earth." (Council Edition. Colm. Agrip. 1618)
4) The Lateran Council addressing Pope Julius II in an oration delivered by Marcellus said: "Take care that we lose not that salvation, that life and breath which thou hast given us, for thou art our shepherd, thou art our physician, thou art our governor, thou art our husbandman, thou art finally another God on earth." (Council Edition. Colm. Agrip. 1618)
5) The RC New York catechism states: "The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth…by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth."
These are but a few claims of the pope being God.
Regarding sin, there is only one way to have forgiveness of sin and that is through the acceptance of Jesus Christ, to believe he is the Son of God. Without Christ there is no forgiveness of any sin. God forgives sin, not the pope.
In Christ!
Wow, thanks bob. I had no idea it was so blatant. I'm glad to have come across you, that is blaspheme plain and simple and it really sets back the warm feelings I was starting to have toward the RCC. BTW, I did not claim the church has power to forgive sins, rather the church has power to recognize the changed life in a person and is charged to so so that the flock might pasture in safety. Agreed! I had no idea that Jesus Christ was actually here on earth still, I should just pop over and see Him there in Rome. What a bunch of heretics. Lurkers, statements are pretty smooth, it's too that he clearly puts his trust in the church fathers over the writings of the New Testament which in the orginal languages say nothing of the pet doctrines of the Romans. nice sales pitch Lurker, but I am already saved and the Spirit of God within me rejects your persuasion.
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/3/2006 9:53:31 PM
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Hagnismos
Posts: 25
Joined: 3/22/2006
Status: offline
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Oh, here see, give God a chance and He reminds you of something,
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all to be testified in due time." 1 Timothy 2:5,6
Isn't that neet how the holy Spirit put that little verse in the writings of Paul. I would love to see how you twist that one to allow Mary to be a co-Mediator and the Pope to bethe vicar of Christ. Lurker, thou art decieved!
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/3/2006 10:17:37 PM
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ChesterDash
Posts: 89
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
In my view the antichrist does not come from the RCC, but the false prophet will and he will be maybe the next pope. The false prophet will support the AC and build a religion around him. I think this religion will be a marriage between RCC and maybe something like Islam.
Yes the RCC is built on a lie and many souls have passed on, not knowing Christ. The church has changed its image today and you do see Christians within the RCC, but not many. What do you call someone who claims to be God on earth, can forgive sin and condemn people to hell?
In Christ!
Where does the Pope claim to be God? Where has a Pope ever condemned anyone to hell?
That said, it was Jesus Himself who gave the apostles and their successors the authority to forgive sins in His name.
The more I read the scriptures and the more I pray, the more I realize that the Catholic Church is indeed what it claims to be, the Church founded by Christ of which the very gates of hell cannot stand against.
What lie is the Church supposedly based on?
where does the Pope claim to be God?
Here:
"the leader of the Catholic church is defined by the faith as the vicar of Jesus Christ [and is accepted as such by believers]. the Pope is considered the man on earth who represents the son of God, who"takes the place of"the second person of the omnipotent God of the Trinity."
- from"crossing the threshold of hope"by Pope John Paul2
straight from the Pope himself claiming to be God on earth which is nothing but blaspheme!
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/3/2006 10:27:22 PM
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gospelintruth
Posts: 158
Joined: 8/29/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
Personally, as I see world events unfold and read more prophecy, I truly begin to wonder about what role Islam has in all of this, especially considering that they are specifically mentioned as being armies that have surrounded Jerusalem in the past and in the future.
What is most likely to be the case is that the Apostasy mentioned in 2 Thess is going to be a major seperating of the wheat and the chaff and is going to encompass ALL Christian denominations, since they are denominations, after all. The true Body will become more and more united since Christ is in control of His Church and the "so-called" Christians are going to follow after the Beast with the rest of the world. Religion is going to save no one. Only by having a good relationship with Christ is anyone going to be saved. It is not what you are on the outside that counts. It is who you are on the inside. It brings me to an understanding about the scriptures that urge us to make our calling and election sure.
Caur,
God has blessed you! Don't lose what you have because light is apparently shining in you. Many forget that at one point in time, which we call the dark ages, there was only One Holy Catholic and Orthodox Church. They were united. It wasn't until after 1054 - 1095 AD that the "Great Schism" occured. And in the 15th Century, the protestant reformation began, and thus to date, there are three separate Kingdoms. Keep your eye on Islam. They've been attacking the Church since 1100 AD. Islam came about in 622 AD when Mohommad had his so called "Resightal Visions". He went to Jerusalem and teamed up with surrounding Jews to overthrow the Church; thus, begetting the Crusades. Keep up the faith and remember that All were one united Christians at one time. It's the Deceptive influences of satan that have created the Schisms. But this should surprise no one! This was predicted to happen. We know the outcome though! Divine interaction will over power the enemy and his followers to the Lake of burning Sulfur.
God bless you Caur.
Joseph
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/3/2006 11:16:18 PM
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Sirach
Posts: 21
Joined: 8/23/2005
From: Surrey, BC, Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChesterDash
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
In my view the antichrist does not come from the RCC, but the false prophet will and he will be maybe the next pope. The false prophet will support the AC and build a religion around him. I think this religion will be a marriage between RCC and maybe something like Islam.
Yes the RCC is built on a lie and many souls have passed on, not knowing Christ. The church has changed its image today and you do see Christians within the RCC, but not many. What do you call someone who claims to be God on earth, can forgive sin and condemn people to hell?
In Christ!
Where does the Pope claim to be God? Where has a Pope ever condemned anyone to hell?
That said, it was Jesus Himself who gave the apostles and their successors the authority to forgive sins in His name.
The more I read the scriptures and the more I pray, the more I realize that the Catholic Church is indeed what it claims to be, the Church founded by Christ of which the very gates of hell cannot stand against.
What lie is the Church supposedly based on?
where does the Pope claim to be God?
Here:
"the leader of the Catholic church is defined by the faith as the vicar of Jesus Christ [and is accepted as such by believers]. the Pope is considered the man on earth who represents the son of God, who"takes the place of"the second person of the omnipotent God of the Trinity."
- from"crossing the threshold of hope"by Pope John Paul2
straight from the Pope himself claiming to be God on earth which is nothing but blaspheme!
Wow, people have a problem of contextualisation...
First of all, the Queen is the representation of Britain. The American Flag is a representation of the United States.
They are not the actual objects themselves, but rather *representations of them* in that they provide as a link to whatever the object is, be it a symbol or a vicar. He does not replace Christ Himself, but takes the physical place of Jesus's Church, while Jesus is the true Bridegroom of the Christian Church.
Second of all, instead, why not quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
quote:
882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful." "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."
He is not God, and will never be a god.
Anyways, the anti-Christ | | |
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