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RE: Catholic Teaching on Baptism - 4/21/2007 2:37:38 PM
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CalRed
Posts: 165
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Well the pope has done it again. Shown how ridiculous the RCC faith is. After over a thousand years of teaching one thing, he has reversed the church's position and now says infants are not born with sin and are not going to hell unless they are baptized.
The were in "limbo" even though Augustine says they were going to hell, but a milder version of hell.
Oh well.........What would you expect from them. Change their mind every hundred years or so or every pope.....
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RE: Catholic Teaching on Baptism - 4/22/2007 8:44:05 AM
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thebreeze
Posts: 116
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From: albert lea MN.
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the funny thing is, i and a lot of other Christians already knew that.
_____________________________
the blood will not cleanse you before you hear,believe,repent, confess Christ and are baptized for the remission of your sins. these are heavens conditions and you must meet them all. mark 16;16 acts 2;38..8;37
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RE: Catholic Teaching on Baptism - 4/22/2007 9:27:46 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2840
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CalRed
Well the pope has done it again. Shown how ridiculous the RCC faith is. After over a thousand years of teaching one thing, he has reversed the church's position and now says infants are not born with sin and are not going to hell unless they are baptized.
The were in "limbo" even though Augustine says they were going to hell, but a milder version of hell.
Oh well.........What would you expect from them. Change their mind every hundred years or so or every pope.....
Flip-Flop.....Flip-Flop.....Flip-Flop
Isn't Kerry RC ?...LOL
manna
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Catholic Teaching on Baptism - 4/22/2007 9:29:50 AM
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Mannamuncher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: thebreeze
the funny thing is, i and a lot of other Christians already knew that.
Yeah, we avoid the teachings of sinful men...
The Bible says God NEVER changes !!!
manna
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Catholic Teaching on Baptism - 4/22/2007 9:39:33 AM
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gatolover
Posts: 544
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CalRed,
quote:
Well the pope has done it again. Shown how ridiculous the RCC faith is. After over a thousand years of teaching one thing, he has reversed the church's position and now says infants are not born with sin and are not going to hell unless they are baptized.
The were in "limbo" even though Augustine says they were going to hell, but a milder version of hell.
I'm not sure where you got your information, but this is a blatant mischaracterization of the document I believe you are referring to. Some excerpts from an article by Catholic News, which quotes the document, follow:
quote:
"We emphasize that these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge," it added.
The 41-page document, titled "The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptized," was published in Origins, the documentary service of Catholic News Service. Pope Benedict XVI authorized its publication earlier this year.
The 30-member International Theological Commission acts as an advisory panel to the Vatican, in particular to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Its documents are not considered expressions of authoritative church teaching, but they sometimes set the stage for official Vatican pronouncements.
The commission's document said salvation for unbaptized babies who die was becoming an urgent pastoral question, in part because their number is greatly increasing. Many infants today are born to parents who are not practicing Catholics, and many others are the unborn victims of abortion, it said.
Limbo has never been defined as church dogma and is not mentioned in the current Catechism of the Catholic Church, which states simply that unbaptized infants are entrusted to God's mercy.
You can read the entire article here: http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0702216.htm
Catholics Christians have always shared a living hope of salvation and entrusted unbaptized infants to the Mercy of God. Contrary to your rather insensitively-articulated conclusions, this document does not reflect a reversal of official Church teaching on the hope of salvation of unbaptized infants.
I hope this helps.
Pax Chriti,
gatolover
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RE: Catholic Teaching on Baptism - 4/22/2007 2:11:36 PM
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Dona Nobis Pacem
Posts: 148
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calred,
Sorry to burst your bubble but limbo was NEVER officially taught as doctrine but was a hypothesis based on the necessity of baptism and those infants who died without it.
quote:
Through the centuries, popes and church councils were careful not to define limbo as a doctrine of the faith and to leave the question open.
Catholic Online
Peace,
DNP
_____________________________
Pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion,
Have mercy on us, and on the whole world.
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RE: Catholic Teaching on Baptism - 4/22/2007 2:30:09 PM
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rosswell59
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If the pope says infants are not born in sin, he is wrong. Scripture plainly teaches that the fallen nature is handed down from generation to generation. In speaking of infants, the Lord said "I came to save that which was LOST". This shows that even infants need salvation. The difference is expressed in the words He used when speaking of adults, "I came to SEEK and SAVE that which was lost". Infants are incapable of coming under conviction about their sinful nature and thus exempt from repentance and so are saved if they die before becoming accountable to recieve the testimony of their lost condition. Since baptism is the conscious entering into discipleship with Christ by being buried with Him symbolically in death, they are also exempt from it. There is no scriptural evidence that infants were baptized. While scripture does speak of "households" being baptized it also speaks of "households" believing. This coupled with the fact that individual baptisms always accompanied belief would indicate that only believers were baptized. Infants, of course, cannot be counted as believers.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: Catholic Teaching on Baptism - 4/22/2007 4:24:29 PM
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Dona Nobis Pacem
Posts: 148
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quote:
If the pope says infants are not born in sin, he is wrong
From the article
quote:
The church continues to teach that, because of original sin, baptism is the ordinary way of salvation for all people and urges parents to baptize infants, the document said.
Peace,
DNP
_____________________________
Pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion,
Have mercy on us, and on the whole world.
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RE: Catholic Teaching on Baptism - 4/22/2007 4:41:46 PM
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rosswell59
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At any rate, baptism is not what saves us from eternal judgement but faith in Christ. Baptism saves us from being subject to the power of sin in our daily lives if mixed with faith. It is a request for a good conscience. Infants have no ability for the first and no need for the latter.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: Catholic Teaching on Baptism - 4/22/2007 5:26:19 PM
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CalRed
Posts: 165
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quote:
Catholics Christians have always shared a living hope of salvation and entrusted unbaptized infants to the Mercy of God. Contrary to your rather insensitively-articulated conclusions, this document does not reflect a reversal of official Church teaching on the hope of salvation of unbaptized infants.
I hope this helps.
Pax Chriti,
In any event, the pope just agreed that the church's "official possition (tho' un-official)" was changing. Here is a paragraph of the article. Read the entire article at the link below.
quote:
A church decision to abolish limbo long has been expected. Benedict and his predecessor, the late Pope John Paul II, expressed misgivings about the concept. In the fifth century, St. Augustine declared that all unbaptized babies went to hell upon death. By the Middle Ages, the idea was softened to suggest a less severe fate, limbo.
Source
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RE: Catholic Teaching on Baptism - 4/22/2007 6:51:57 PM
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ANewhouse
Posts: 192
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CalRed
quote:
Catholics Christians have always shared a living hope of salvation and entrusted unbaptized infants to the Mercy of God. Contrary to your rather insensitively-articulated conclusions, this document does not reflect a reversal of official Church teaching on the hope of salvation of unbaptized infants.
I hope this helps.
Pax Chriti,
In any event, the pope just agreed that the church's "official possition (tho' un-official)" was changing. Here is a paragraph of the article. Read the entire article at the link below.
quote:
A church decision to abolish limbo long has been expected. Benedict and his predecessor, the late Pope John Paul II, expressed misgivings about the concept. In the fifth century, St. Augustine declared that all unbaptized babies went to hell upon death. By the Middle Ages, the idea was softened to suggest a less severe fate, limbo.
Source
Here's the link from the thread closed in current events.
You will notice that Limbo has never been Church doctrine.
Catholic Church buries limbo after centuries
VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Roman Catholic Church has effectively buried the concept of limbo, the place where centuries of tradition and teaching held that babies who die without baptism went.
In a long-awaited document, the Church's International Theological Commission said limbo reflected an "unduly restrictive view of salvation."
The 41-page document was published on Friday by Origins, the documentary service of the U.S.-based Catholic News Service, which is part of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.
Pope Benedict, himself a top theologian who before his election in 2005 expressed doubts about limbo, authorized the publication of the document, called "The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptised."
The verdict that limbo could now rest in peace had been expected for years. The document was seen as most likely the final word since limbo was never part of Church doctrine, even though it was taught to Catholics well into the 20th century.
"The conclusion of this study is that there are theological and liturgical reasons to hope that infants who die without baptism may be saved and brought into eternal happiness even if there is not an explicit teaching on this question found in revelation," it said.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070420/ts_nm/pope_limbo_dc;_ylt=AgyfI11FIklzYvSFCJBzdxfMWM0F
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RE: Catholic Teaching on Baptism - 4/23/2007 6:42:33 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 544
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CalRed,
quote:
In any event, the pope just agreed that the church's "official possition (tho' un-official)" was changing. Here is a paragraph of the article. Read the entire article at the link below.
quote:
A church decision to abolish limbo long has been expected. Benedict and his predecessor, the late Pope John Paul II, expressed misgivings about the concept. In the fifth century, St. Augustine declared that all unbaptized babies went to hell upon death. By the Middle Ages, the idea was softened to suggest a less severe fate, limbo.
Source
It is always best to quote official sources when you endeavor to dispute "official" positions of the Church. FYI, the L.A. Times is not one of them.
I must confess a somewhat suprising sense of thankfulness that you pulled that hogwash from a secular source rather than a misinformed non-Catholic Christian news site.
Pax Christi,
gatolover
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RE: Catholic Teaching on Baptism - 4/23/2007 6:46:20 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 544
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Dear Ross,
quote:
At any rate, baptism is not what saves us from eternal judgement but faith in Christ.
I'm curious if you've ever done a study of the Early Church's understanding of John 3:3? If so, what do you think? If not, I'll be happy to post a few things for your consideration.
Till next time...Pax Christi,
gatolover
< Message edited by gatolover -- 4/23/2007 11:12:04 PM >
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RE: Catholic Teaching on Baptism - 4/24/2007 7:39:12 AM
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thebreeze
Posts: 116
Joined: 3/13/2007
From: albert lea MN.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChelseaRae
quote:
ORIGINAL: CalRed
Well the pope has done it again. Shown how ridiculous the RCC faith is.
Oh well.........What would you expect from them. Change their mind every hundred years or so or every pope.....
I can't help but wonder what your reaction would be if it were your particular faith denomination being spoken about like that? I am confident this topic can be discussed in a more charitable manner.
how do you think Christ feels about the way the pope talks.? you know, with Christ being The Head of His Church and then having someone like the pope try to take it over.
_____________________________
the blood will not cleanse you before you hear,believe,repent, confess Christ and are baptized for the remission of your sins. these are heavens conditions and you must meet them all. mark 16;16 acts 2;38..8;37
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RE: Catholic Teaching on Baptism - 4/24/2007 10:44:32 AM
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Ps103
Posts: 11657
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
This is not a thread about the pope--that thread is HERE.
This is not a thread about limbo, either, although I can see how that relates to the topic.
Please take the off topic discussion elsewhere.
Thanks.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Catholic Teaching on Baptism - 5/4/2007 10:56:31 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 544
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Second time around. I'm afraid this may have been lost in the guff. 
I look forward to discussing this topic further with you, Ross, so I'm reposting this.
Pax Christi,
gatolover
quote:
ORIGINAL: gatolover
Dear Ross,
quote:
At any rate, baptism is not what saves us from eternal judgement but faith in Christ.
I'm curious if you've ever done a study of the Early Church's understanding of John 3:3? If so, what do you think? If not, I'll be happy to post a few things for your consideration.
Till next time...Pax Christi,
gatolover
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RE: Catholic Teaching on Baptism - 8/17/2007 7:00:49 AM
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Mattumanu
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quote:
infants cant repent. peter was talking to and about people who could hear and understand the Gospel.
You're being a naturalist when you talk that way. YOU can't repent either, except by the action of God.
_____________________________
Radical Grace Radio
Tear Down the High Places
I'm a converted pagan operating amongst a nation of apostate puritans ~ C. S. Lewis
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RE: Catholic Teaching on Baptism - 8/20/2007 4:03:45 PM
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emeraldj1215
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How do you repent if you can't speak or even know what it means to repent?
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RE: Catholic Teaching on Baptism - 9/6/2007 2:13:46 PM
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Mattumanu
Posts: 160
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emeraldj1215
How do you repent if you can't speak or even know what it means to repent?
More naturalistic thinking. How do you know that a baby can't do these things? And besides which, NO ONE would repent or understand anything unless God intervenes... That includes me AND you. Thank God He doesn't wait till someone consents and assents, because if He did He'd be waiting a long, long time.
< Message edited by Mattumanu -- 9/6/2007 2:26:47 PM >
_____________________________
Radical Grace Radio
Tear Down the High Places
I'm a converted pagan operating amongst a nation of apostate puritans ~ C. S. Lewis
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RE: Catholic Teaching on Baptism - 10/5/2007 12:07:46 AM
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DanBryan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: S.Benedict
These have all been taken from www. catholic.com and if anyone wants to see more, just go ahead and look. There is much more.
quote:
Origen
"Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous" (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).
Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked:
and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee:
Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? …… Abraham
Act 16:25-31 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.
And suddenly there was a great earthquake, ……..And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
The believing parent’s faith is sufficient to provide for the salvation of the child in the Economy of salvation is it not?
1Cr 7:10 ¶ And unto the married I command, [yet] not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from [her] husband:
But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to [her] husband: and let not the husband put away [his] wife.
But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
In the Economy of Salvation, the spouse that believes sanctifies the unbelieving spouse and the children are then holy.
So is what we have here is a dogma or doctrine that attempts to fix a problem that does not exist? Did not the fathers of the faith see this answer in the Word?
Thanks,
dan
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RE: Catholic Teaching on Baptism - 10/11/2007 11:30:12 PM
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epitome
Posts: 51
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
What is the basic Catholic teaching on baptism?
Discuss infant baptism and other teachings of the Catholic church on the topic of baptism here.
The R C church teaches differently from the bible when they say
baptism only washes away past and present sins .
The bible says it washes away "sins"....
the bible no where "limits this washing" to only past and present sins .
thus the roman catholic Church by circumventing scripture can now tell you what you must do to pay for your sin's after baptism.
while the correct teaching on baptism points to Jesus perfectly completed work on the cross for all sin paid in Full by his bloody death a
which BY Gods grace alone . baptism certainly brings us to and into.
Galations 3 :26
\
How do we know it truly saves ?
since Jesus did rise his word that he does save us by the miracle of washing of his blood in the water and gospel word of Jesus in baptism
the verse to follow is proven true.
1 peter 3 :20-21
if Jesus did not rise his death for us and his promises true in baptism would be worthless.
Next time you are honored to wittness a christian baptism the miracle behind it is A personal this time .
CRIMSON FLOOD IN The blood of Jesus .
God the savior gets so up close and a real personal savior this time in baptism just for them.
< Message edited by epitome -- 10/11/2007 11:40:30 PM >
_____________________________
I have engraved "you" on the palms of my Hands.....
Isaiah 49:16
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RE: Catholic Teaching on Baptism - 10/12/2007 10:16:27 PM
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DanBryan
Posts: 28
Joined: 7/21/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
What is the basic Catholic teaching on baptism?
Discuss infant baptism and other teachings of the Catholic church on the topic of baptism here.
The RCC holds baptism as a sacrament and is needed for the cleansing of original sin.
Problem 1 - original sin in babies - we do not know if they will arrive in heaven if they die, most likely not. - - - St Augustine
Solution 1 - baptize the baby
Problem 2 - baby dies before reaching baptismal
Solution 2 - Cannot be buried in catholic cemetery
Problem 3 - Parents in extreme distress with the issue of what is the status of their un-baptized baby.
Solution 3 - Create a place called limbo for un-baptized babies with original sin.
Problem 4 - Parents still distressed with outcome of their un-baptized babies in a 'neither here nor there' solution of Limbo.
Solution 4 - Negate Limbo as a viable option revert to problem 2 and find a new solution
Problem 5 - Revert to Problem 2, what is the outcome of the baby's soul?
Solution 5 - Baby goes to heaven but cannot enter the Kingdom and see the face of God due to the original sin.
Problem 6 - Parents still upset with latest resultant position.
Solution 6 - The child enters the Kingdom of God and is maintained by the 'Blessed Mother' but still cannot behold the face of God, maybe.
Problem 7 - the Church (RCC) does not have a dogma or doctrine position on the issue.
Solution 7 - Pontiff Benedict calls for an International Theological Commission, to finalize the Church position once and for all, to see the commission call you can read it here, it is rather lengthy.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html
Problem 8 - Stay tuned
< Message edited by DanBryan -- 10/12/2007 10:23:05 PM >
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RE: Catholic Teaching on Baptism - 10/13/2007 11:55:53 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 891
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Problem 8 - Stay tuned I don't agree that this post accurately characterizes the global teaching of the Church on this subject, although it might reflect some local practices in absence of that global teaching.
"Limbo" is more of a theory around which to discuss the possibilities of the souls of un-baptized infants. I think it may be safe to say that in the absence of a definite answer, that there is hope.
A catechumen who is taken ill or dies in a car wreck before actually being baptized, but after receiving instruction in the Church is considerd to have been baptized by "desire".
As infants cannot form rational thoughts nor will action upon them, it is not unreasonable to trust these souls to God and His infinite mercies. It will be interesting to see how the Church deals with this one.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Catholic Teaching on Baptism - 10/20/2007 9:57:16 PM
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DanBryan
Posts: 28
Joined: 7/21/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
Problem 8 - Stay tuned I don't agree that this post accurately characterizes the global teaching of the Church on this subject, although it might reflect some local practices in absence of that global teaching.
"Limbo" is more of a theory around which to discuss the possibilities of the souls of un-baptized infants. I think it may be safe to say that in the absence of a definite answer, that there is hope.
A catechumen who is taken ill or dies in a car wreck before actually being baptized, but after receiving instruction in the Church is considerd to have been baptized by "desire".
As infants cannot form rational thoughts nor will action upon them, it is not unreasonable to trust these souls to God and His infinite mercies. It will be interesting to see how the Church deals with this one.
Dear DH,
I was not depicting or characterizing the Church’s teaching on baptism, but generally show the turn of events, or rather the general chaos.
You bring up some additional points of interest that does pose a few additional questions.
Why is a baby baptized prior to the age when the child can make a 'free will' choice to be or not be baptized?
Why does a catechumen have to wait for indoctrination prior to baptism but the baby does not?
Why can’t the catechumen confess their sins, leaving only the original sin, and then be baptized?
Please show the Dogma or Doctrine that the Church states there can be a baptism by 'desire'?
If there is no Dogma or Doctrine on ‘baptism by desire’, how does it provide a valid solution or is it just another theory?
Isn’t it presumptuous and dangerous to pose a theory in matters of heaven and hell?
Why do you believe that the Holy Spirit has not enlightened the Church over these 2000 years related to baptism?
Is the Church waiting for one the enlightened philosophers provide a philosophic point of view on the subject?
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