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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 9/20/2008 7:33:43 AM
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martyfran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bonlee
Coming into this discussion just now and have read some of the older postings to catch up a bit.
My question is "Why?"
Why does the Cathlic church need Mary to be "sinless" and to have remained in a "perpertual state of sinlessness" - I believe in the virgin birth itself - but how does that translate into the theology that has grown around her sinlessness and holiness throughout her life?
What is the purpose for it?
I think this is kind of like the question of "why did Jesus need to die on the cross". The answer is that he didn't need to. It is how God chose things to be.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 9/20/2008 10:47:42 PM
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Bonlee
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I just discovered that there is really no official dogma on the "sinlessness of Mary" - so it is not something that Catholics necessarily have to believe in one way or the other. It's the Immaculate Conception that has been codified and set as an official dogma.
This was completely new to me....I always thought that it was a dogma in itself and therefore all Catholics must believe it.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 9/20/2008 10:56:45 PM
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Bonlee
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Martyfran
I understand what you are saying with regards to Jesus....but can't quite see the same being attributed to Mary, in the sense of her being "sinless", and that's why I wonder why there was/is a need for the Catholic church to have such an ambiguous piece of "theology" floating around for so long a time...and bringing into question the whole "development" of the Marian Theology itself and how it has grown over the years.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 9/21/2008 1:47:35 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bonlee
Martyfran
I understand what you are saying with regards to Jesus....but can't quite see the same being attributed to Mary, in the sense of her being "sinless", and that's why I wonder why there was/is a need for the Catholic church to have such an ambiguous piece of "theology" floating around for so long a time...and bringing into question the whole "development" of the Marian Theology itself and how it has grown over the years.
I am not sure the Catholic Church "needs" to define Mary as sinless for any other reason than it is committed to the truth. If, as scripture says, the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, then if the Holy Spirit reveals to the Church that Mary is sinless, then how can the church not proclaim that?
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 9/21/2008 3:55:37 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
I am not sure the Catholic Church "needs" to define Mary as sinless for any other reason than it is committed to the truth. If, as scripture says, the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, then if the Holy Spirit reveals to the Church that Mary is sinless, then how can the church not proclaim that?
The only problem with this "Truth" that you and the RCC espuuse is that it has zero, zip, no, nothing, nada Scriptural foundation; just more of the old wives tales and urban ledgengs that the RCC uses to uphold it's non-Scriptural beliefs.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 9/21/2008 4:09:50 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
The only problem with this "Truth" that you and the RCC espuuse is that it has zero, zip, no, nothing, nada Scriptural foundation
Precisely. And since there is no Scriptural foundation for it, we ought to be very wary of condoning it as Spirit-guided truth. Many people have been led to "truth" by what they claim to be the Holy Spirit, but their conclusions were immensely destructive to the faith. I'm not saying that the belief in a sinless Mary falls into that category, but just because someone claims to be guided by the Spirit does not mean they were.
_____________________________
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You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 9/22/2008 11:28:30 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
The only problem with this "Truth" that you and the RCC espuuse is that it has zero, zip, no, nothing, nada Scriptural foundation; just more of the old wives tales and urban ledgengs that the RCC uses to uphold it's non-Scriptural beliefs. "Hail Mary, full of grace" - Luke 1:28.
So - grace is not effective for sanctifying the soul, or something other than grace sanctifies the soul, or the fully sanctified soul is also fully capable of sin, or the effectiveness of grace has a shelf-life and "wears out" over time, or grace is compatible with sin, or Gabriel spoke with forked tongue, or ... ?
Maybe you guys aren't looking hard enough...or don't want to see what is being said, because it runs counter to your personal beliefs and renderings.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 9/22/2008 12:15:46 PM
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Zhi
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I was under the impression that grace is God's favor. It's unmerited. Because God favors us, He has given us a way to have our sins atoned for. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9
Most translations say "highly favored".
Maybe we can get a Greek scholar in here regarding the translation.
We know that David is listed as having found favor with God (Acts 7:46) and he was certainly not sinless. It doesn't have to do with Mary's righteousness... it has to do with God's righteousness, and His decision to do a great work through Mary, an undeserving woman, for all of humanity, an undeserving people.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 9/22/2008 5:10:43 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
it has to do with God's righteousness, and His decision to do a great work through Mary, an undeserving woman, for all of humanity, an undeserving people. Amen to this sis, but if you peel the onion back one more layer, the question you have to ask then is:
Did Mary have any say or choice in the matter of bearing our Savior?
We know Mary assented to this in verse 38. I take it from this inclusion of the assent that it was important to the story (otherwise, Luke would have been moot on the point).
In that assent - there was grace. Since we know if there was grace, it was fully graced (your "highly favored" is a rendering that begs the question - "How high is 'high'?")
Isn't Luke talking about cooperation with grace? And isn't Luke telling us that Mary's selection was due to the presence of grace - through faith? And isn't this an example of the workings of grace in the soul?
quote:
Maybe we can get a Greek scholar in here regarding the translation. I'm no Greek scholar, but this is the ever famous "Chaire, Kecharitomene" - the "full of Grace" translation is from the Vulgate (Latin, of course). The perfect tense of this Greek verse denotes the continuing action or effect of a past event or action. "charito" is what I am refering to as "grace", and I can cite examples of its use in Scriptures in this way.
Greek Translation Opinion - an opinion, for your consideration...
In other words...Catholics believe that due to the perfect tense selected in Luke's wording, one would have to have an expiration of grace, or that it would have be of a non-durable quality to render the meaning that some in Christendom apply to the sinlessness of Mary.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 9/22/2008 5:53:12 PM >
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 9/22/2008 6:22:16 PM
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Zhi
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quote:
Amen to this sis, but if you peel the onion back one more layer, the question you have to ask then is:
Did Mary have any say or choice in the matter of bearing our Savior?
Well, this is basically equivalent to asking if we have any choice in being saved, since that's a matter of grace as well. There are long threads discussing that. I will give my personal opinion.
God is not bounded by our concept of time. Therefore God knows what we are going to do before we do it... not because He is some sort of fortune teller, but because He can move along the timeline and see what will happen when the choice is presented. As such, we must still make/be making/have made the choice (depending on temporal perspective) in order for it to be observable, but we cannot bound God in His choice of observational perspective along the timeline.
So, I would say that God knew that Mary would assent, and that if she had not assented/would not assent/would not be assenting, He would have chosen someone else.
quote:
We know Mary assented to this in verse 38. I take it from this inclusion of the assent that it was important to the story (otherwise, Luke would have been moot on the point).
Assuming you mean "mute", one would likewise think that if Mary were actually sinless, then Luke wouldn't have been mute on the point.
quote:
In that assent - there was grace. Since we know if there was grace, it was fully graced (your "highly favored" is a rendering that begs the question - "How high is 'high'?")
Apparently, "high" means high enough to be chosen to bring Jesus, the Messiah, into the world. That being the apparent result, and the entirety of the message of the angel.
quote:
Isn't Luke talking about cooperation with grace? And isn't Luke telling us that Mary's selection was due to the presence of grace - through faith? And isn't this an example of the workings of grace in the soul?
It's an example of God giving unmerited favor, sure. That does not, however, indicate anything other than just that... God gave unmerited favor.
quote:
I'm no Greek scholar, but this is the ever famous "Chaire, Kecharitomene" - the "full of Grace" translation is from the Vulgate (Latin, of course). The perfect tense of this Greek verse denotes the continuing action or effect of a past event or action. "charito" is what I am refering to as "grace", and I can cite examples of its use in Scriptures in this way.
Greek Translation Opinion - an opinion, for your consideration...
In other words...Catholics believe that due to the perfect tense selected in Luke's wording, one would have to have an expiration of grace, or that it would have be of a non-durable quality to render the meaning that some in Christendom apply to the sinlessness of Mary.
Well, we're talking about the announcement of participation in the most significant step (other than His death) in the redemption of mankind, which the Scripture is quite clear has been planned since the foundation of the world, which had been prophesied over 300 times, which had been looked forward to since the beginning of time... as such, perfect tense is not really all that surprising. Mary, the virgin, with her specific lineage, was part of that prophecy, part of the great work of grace that had been going on since even before the Fall, and a key part at that. There is nothing in there that seems to indicate any sinlessness on her part.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 9/23/2008 1:01:54 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
The only problem with this "Truth" that you and the RCC espuuse is that it has zero, zip, no, nothing, nada Scriptural foundation; just more of the old wives tales and urban ledgengs that the RCC uses to uphold it's non-Scriptural beliefs. "Hail Mary, full of grace" - Luke 1:28.
So - grace is not effective for sanctifying the soul, or something other than grace sanctifies the soul, or the fully sanctified soul is also fully capable of sin, or the effectiveness of grace has a shelf-life and "wears out" over time, or grace is compatible with sin, or Gabriel spoke with forked tongue, or ... ?
Maybe you guys aren't looking hard enough...or don't want to see what is being said, because it runs counter to your personal beliefs and renderings.
quote:
Hail Mary, full of grace" - Luke 1:28.
What bible are you reading from? For my translation doesn't say that.
It states "Greeting you who are highly favored. The Lord is with you". (NIV)
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 9/23/2008 1:19:23 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
What bible are you reading from? For my translation doesn't say that.
It sates Greeting you who are highly favored. The Lord is with you
It's a difficult read from the Greek. The copy I'm looking at doesn't have "Mary" at all. In a very staunch way, Gabriel would be saying "Hail, you (Mary is the logical and grammatical "you", since the participle is feminine) who has been filled with grace/who is highly favored/who is held in honor (it's really difficult to say what the exact meaning is here), the Lord is with you."
The participle is in the perfect tense, most likely meaning there is a past action with abiding results.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 9/23/2008 1:47:00 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
It's a difficult read from the Greek. Only if you would desire it to say something other than what it really says. 
If one looks to the interpretation that first and second century Christians took from these verses - before there was such a thing as "English Translations", etc., the meaning of "charitoo" (grace - "charis") embedded within "Kecharitomene" becomes a rendering of being filled with what God fills us with to make us holy, as the root "charis" is used plenty of other places to describe what we call "grace" in English.
The Scriptural usage of this term is pretty consistent with "grace", in my opinion. Eph 1:6 "for the praise of the glory of his grace that he granted us in the beloved" - in this case, the variant of "charitoo" is "echaritosen", where "echaritosen" means "he graced" (bestowed grace). "echaritosen" signifies a momentary action; an action brought to pass ("indicative active aorist" - look this one up). Whereas, "kecharitomene", the perfect passive participle, shows a completeness with a permanent result. "kecharitomene" denotes continuance of a completed action.
If Luke had meant what many attribute in Luke 1:28, he very well would have selected "echaristosen" as the variant of "charitoo". He didn't. The selection of the tense and the usage of the verb as it is tells us a lot about what the Holy Spirit was guiding Luke to author in the first chapter.
I believe to dismiss this in favor of some English variant compiled in the 17th century is to miss a lot in what Luke is trying to tell us about Mary, and from that example, about humanity and salvation.
Perhaps Luke 1:28 should read "Hail Mary, completely and permanently graced" - this is literally what it says in Greek.
...just a layman's opinion...take it for what its worth, but verify what I claim here by some Google searches. It makes for some interesting reading, if nothing else.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 9/23/2008 2:00:13 PM
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Zhi
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But even if we took all that at face value (and frankly, I don't know Greek, I'm barely started learning it), which seems like perhaps not the best idea given that there appears to be a lot of question regarding translation there, I do not see how "grace" equates with "sinless". "Grace", as far as I can find, means "unmerited favor". God gave His favor to many people who were quite demonstrably not sinless. So, Mary receiving God's favor does not make her sinless. It makes her forgiven (like the rest of us), but not sinless.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 9/23/2008 2:03:32 PM
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1love1God1way
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Now, I'm not a Greek scholar, but how does Mary being "full of grace" differ from this:
Acts 6:8
"And Stephen, full of grace and power . . ."
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 9/24/2008 5:43:30 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
Now, I'm not a Greek scholar, but how does Mary being "full of grace" differ from this:
Acts 6:8
"And Stephen, full of grace and power . . ."
There are a number of instances of varieties of "charitoo" being used to describe what I have been instructed by my faith instruction to be "grace" - the stuff by which God makes us holy. In your cite, it's "charitos" being used as a noun. The usage (coincidentally authored by the same person who authored "kecharitomene" in Luke 1) indicates "grace" being conveyed as it is conveyed to we Christians today - if you believe Baptism washes away sin by performing that act in faith, then you are "fully graced" as Stephen was in Acts 6.
However, Stephen was graced after Christ's work on the cross, and the grace available in faith was the same as the grace you and I enjoy and have available to us, noting that our choice of sin is a rejection of this grace, etc. Thus, Stephen was "fully graced" by his ordination to the task of spreading the faith, and the rest of Acts 6 through 8 tells us of Stephen's martyrdom.
In Mary's case, Luke is telling us something else by his selection of "kecharitomene" to describe the way that she was "fully graced". The grace made available to Mary was made available to her before being visited by Gabriel (who told us she was "fully graced"), but also that this state of grace carries on ... presumably indefinitely (as there is nothing in Luke that restores Mary back to some other state). "kecharitomene" appears once in the NT; "charitos" is used 27 times (according to Strong's).
There is an argument that I am aware of the "charitos" is more properly rendered "faith", as in "faith given by God to a believer". Be that as it may be, Luke's distinctive use of the perfect passive tense for describing the grace of Mary as distinguished from every other description in the NT is compelling to the notion that there is something different about Mary, and that in fact, Mary was graced (presumably from the beginning, but certainly before the visit by Gabriel), and remains so without end. Apparently, Luke felt no need to inform us as to when Mary received this state of grace, and it becomes plausible to think that in this absence of a description of a "start" or receipt, that maybe she was this way from her very begining (the Immaculate Conception). This notion is shared by early Christians and some of the Church fathers who discuss it.
What I take from all of this is the stroy of love of a God that would design the salvation of humanity in such a way that the Savior of humanity be born from it, and not be materialized, or "made" (as opposed to "begotten"). The creation of humanity by God is not flawed, except in its operation by the free choice that God has given it, and Jesus showed that perfect operation is possible operating within free choice. There is a lot of hope in the message of the birth of Jesus as it is laid out in Luke.
I think this is an important aspect of faith and the identity of God that is lost on those who do not evaluate just what Luke is saying in Luke 1. Just an opinion - take for what its worth. God didn't "roll the dice" on Mary - He made her and prepared her to be the vessel for His Son. This is what Luke is saying - Jesus was not the result of luck or accident, but design.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 9/24/2008 10:46:52 PM
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1love1God1way
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Doghouse,
although I am not sure if I agree, I thank you for taking the time to answer me.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 9/25/2008 11:53:20 AM
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Zhi
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I guess my question would be...
The attributes of Mary were very clearly spelled out by the Gospel writers. That she was a virgin (reiterated with the fact that she had never been with a man). That she was of the correct lineage to fulfill the prophecy. Her reaction. Joseph's reaction. Even her cousin's reaction.
As such, if Mary was also actually sinless, why would that not be spelled out along with all the other little details, with full clarity? The fact that Mary is in a state of being favored by God could mean a lot of things... it isn't an obvious indication of a sinless state at all. There are many people in the Bible who were favored by God, but we don't claim that any of the rest of them were sinless.
By contrast, the sinless state of Jesus is spelled out repeatedly and clearly many, many times as one of His most important attributes.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 9/27/2008 12:33:31 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
By contrast, the sinless state of Jesus is spelled out repeatedly and clearly many, many times as one of His most important attributes. Amen to this, but...
...I now have to fall back on the fact that the idea of "Trinity" is ubiquitously accepted within Christendom (in spite of being Catholic I, just as you, accept the theological concept of a Triune God). There isn't a chapter and verses that I can flip to that describes and defines the Trinity and the notion that God is one being in three persons.
You and I have discerned this from how we understand the relationships of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and we borrow the wisdom and the insight of the Church Fathers and early Christians in this endeavor, to assist us with understanding the nature and being of our common God. We must tie together the concepts laid out in several Books, Chapters, and Verses to come to the theology of the Trinity.
In my case, the idea of a "sinless Mary" is derived from the same type of process. Luke (and the Holy Spirit) had intent and objective in choosing the communication of the nature and being of Mary to us in the selection of the way that Mary is introduced to us in Luke 1. I am simply trying to lay out my case in the posts above, for your consideration.
What I would really like to do is to step back from that discussion for just a second and ask you if you believe that people (you, me, St. Francis of Assissi...) can be made holy by grace. If so, then just what does that mean? Do the holy sin? Can the holy sin? Is there sin in heaven? Is everyone in heaven holy?
I think to answer these questions, you have to consider the nature of grace made available to Mary, who obediently yielded to the will of God (if God forced Mary, the story of Salvation is different, isn't it?) in faith temporally before the work of Jesus on the cross, and Gabriel's "title" for her in addressing here as "one fully graced, and continuing to be so...", versus the ordination of Stephen, who's grace in faith was received temporally after the work of Jesus on the cross. In my case, I accept that Mary's state of grace is that which is required of entry into heaven - fully sanctified by God's grace, received in faith, and perfectly aligned with the will of God.
Stephen's grace is the grace of faith made available by receipt of the Sacraments (in his case - holy orders/confirmation) - being charged with the mission of instructing and conveying faith, and the lesson of yielding to that grace, even to Stephen's own demise. This is the stuff of the Saints - a model of fidelity to our professed faith (you to yours, me to mine) and the example of living and doing that faith, and not just preaching it.
So that's my tale. These answers are all found within Scriptures, but not so obviously as discerning the names of Dick and Jane's dog from a first grade reading primer.
Sometimes, we have to work hard to discern the finer points of what the Gospel writers are really telling us. Sometimes, we have to seek the help, aid and assistance of those who have been prepared and blessed for this tack, and accept what those folks tell us about some of this stuff.
At least that's the way I have chosen to approach the development of my faith.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 9/27/2008 12:42:49 PM
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1love1God1way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
(if God forced Mary, the story of Salvation is different, isn't it?)
How so?
A Savior came, died, and was resurrected. Let's not complicate things too much. Mary's choice vs. being preordained really doesn't affect how Salvation is imparted.
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love.ben
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 9/28/2008 4:30:10 AM
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kelman
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quote:
...I now have to fall back on the fact that the idea of "Trinity" is ubiquitously accepted within Christendom (in spite of being Catholic I, just as you, accept the theological concept of a Triune God). There isn't a chapter and verses that I can flip to that describes and defines the Trinity and the notion that God is one being in three persons.
You and I have discerned this from how we understand the relationships of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and we borrow the wisdom and the insight of the Church Fathers and early Christians in this endeavor, to assist us with understanding the nature and being of our common God. We must tie together the concepts laid out in several Books, Chapters, and Verses to come to the theology of the Trinity.
In my case, the idea of a "sinless Mary" is derived from the same type of process. Luke (and the Holy Spirit) had intent and objective in choosing the communication of the nature and being of Mary to us in the selection of the way that Mary is introduced to us in Luke 1. The only problem with the above is that Scripture is replete with evidence of the triune God. The reverse is true of a sinless Mary, no scriptural evidence whatsoever to support the theory.
Instead, we see that Scripture is clear there is only one who has ever been sinless - Jesus Christ - God. Why claim Mary to be what God has declared Jesus Christ alone to be? To insist on another sinless one is to raise this other to the level of deity.
This and other errant views multiply when we depart from Scripture and insist on reading personal theological suppositions into a passage. Why is this done?....simply because some people thought it a neat idea.
But, of course, there were many ECF's who would disagree with modern RC doctrines including this one. Another "unanimous consent of the fathers" landing on the dustbin of history.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 9/28/2008 5:50:32 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1443
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
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The problem with that, DH, is that the Trinity is laid out repeatedly in many, many Scriptures... a brief search shows that most "abbreviated" lessons on it tend to have at least 40 verses listed as support. By contrast, you're taking ONE single verse and stretching it to the breaking point, and claiming that some possibly ambiguous wording might maybe sort of mean, by stretching it, then stretching the concept of some of the words in it, that Mary might possibly be sinless, despite the fact that there are many verses stating that there was only One who was ever sinless. And, despite the fact that "grace" means "unmerited favor", not "sinlessness", not even "holiness". And, scarily, Marian theology goes way, way, way beyond that. Can you see, in light of all the Marian traditions that don't have any clear Scriptural basis, why Protestants would generally think the RCC has gone off the rails in their Mary-stuff?
Can people be made holy? Well, we're in the process of sanctification, that which sets us apart, which is what "holy" means. So, obviously, yes, people can be made holy, and in fact, that is God's purpose, to work on our process toward holiness while we're here. How far we get varies I suppose, but in God's presence the work is made perfect, so yes, we are sinless when we get to Heaven, but because God has done the work in us through His Son in whom we have faith. Our old sins have been cleansed by the blood of Christ and God does not see them, and we won't continue to sin, because what tendency and capability to sin was there died with our mortal bodies. Not because we're particularly spiffy ourselves. Can we manage to be sinless on this planet? Maybe for a little bit. Maybe while we're asleep perhaps. But, even Paul, the greatest of apostles (in my opinion), did not manage to get "holy enough" to stop sinning, which he laments deeply in Romans 7. "For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing... What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?"
If Paul couldn't manage it, why would I expect anyone else to?
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 9/29/2008 7:18:28 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
Let's not complicate things too much. ...My faith is only as complicated as 27 New Testament Books...referencing 46 Old Testament Books...
quote:
Mary's choice vs. being preordained really doesn't affect how Salvation is imparted. With all due respect...I believe Luke and the Holy Spirit disagree with you on this point...
Why would Luke choose to include the line in Luke 1:28? And why did he word it that way? What was Gabriel implying about Mary? If Mary is so unimportant, why is she even named? (she wasn't in the Old Testament - she was only known as a virgin who would give birth to the Redeemer)? So - she was important enough to be named; what else was important enough about her to be specified?
I will concede to you that for some, these questions need an answer. For others, they don't.
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When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 9/29/2008 7:36:14 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
and claiming that some possibly ambiguous wording might maybe sort of mean Can we put the other examples of ambiguously worded Scripture on the table for discussion? There is nothing ambiguous in Scripture; only in discernment.
quote:
despite the fact that there are many verses stating that there was only One who was ever sinless. While Paul's "none righteous, not one" is often mis-appropriated from some pulpits to dismiss Mary (in verse 9, Paul contexts the Scripture he is actually quoting in verse 10 by describing that "all are under the power of sin" - this speaks to the universal condemnation of original sin, from which Mary was apparently preserved), there were others named as "righteous" in the Bible - John the Baptist lived a sinless life, as well as Abraham, Elijah, Enoch (Scripture tells us these folks were free from sin - righteous).
More later...
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When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 9/29/2008 8:44:53 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2417
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
Let's not complicate things too much. ...My faith is only as complicated as 27 New Testament Books...referencing 46 Old Testament Books...
quote:
Mary's choice vs. being preordained really doesn't affect how Salvation is imparted. With all due respect...I believe Luke and the Holy Spirit disagree with you on this point...
Why would Luke choose to include the line in Luke 1:28? And why did he word it that way? What was Gabriel implying about Mary? If Mary is so unimportant, why is she even named? (she wasn't in the Old Testament - she was only known as a virgin who would give birth to the Redeemer)? So - she was important enough to be named; what else was important en | | |
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