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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/17/2005 8:17:40 PM
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nowimfound
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In Mark 10:17-18, we read of a rich young man who runs up to Jesus and says, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus answers "Why do you call me good? No one is good---except God alone....". From this statement of Jesus, can we not conclude that Mary was not good either? Can someone be not good and at the same time be without sin? Or was Jesus just plain wrong in his claim that no one except God alone is good?
Grace and Peace,
NIF
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/17/2005 8:24:04 PM
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onelordofall
Posts: 262
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Hello again, jrah06,
quote:
ORIGINAL: jrah06
In an earlier post, I wrote this:
"(focus on Mary) has had the colossally dangerous result of making millions on Earth devote their affections to Mary rather than to Christ."
NOt only has the attention on Mary been extreme in some Catholic countries such as Italy, Spain, Mexico, and Brazil, it has become mixed with indigenous religions.
This focus on Mary has had the CATASTROPHIC result of Mary being seen as a goddess, and even if Catholics here refuse to admit that or deny it - even if they themselves do not worship her as such: let us see what the following pagan website says:
Since when do pagan ideas upset objective Divine Truth? Pagans believe a lot of crazy things, friend. What are Christians to do about it? I'd be willing to bet pagans believe a lot of discombobulated, pagan things about our Lord Jesus Christ, as well. What do you propose we do about their heresy?
Once again, you make the mistake of thinking Catholic devotion to Mary can somehow be separated from devotion to Her Son. Devotion to Mary is all about Christ, jrah. St. Elizabeth honored her as "Mother of my Lord" in honor of the Son of God in her womb, and even St. John the Baptist leapt for joy in utero at her presence. There really is biblical precedent for Catholic devotion to Mary. Apparently, some folks don't notice the particular Scripture verses which put a burr in their saddle? Like GoodMe said, we do not make this stuff up out of thin air. The Catholic Church has 2,000+ years under Her belt combatting heresy. It would not be a bad thing to research the Councils.
quote:
But in addition to the belief she was born without sin, the issue I have as a Protestant with the Catholic focus on Mary is that she is made to be not only SINLESS but also a co-redemptrix.
The idea of Mary as "co-redemptrix" is not official Catholic doctrine, and it appears to me you may be unfamiliar with the underlying Catholic theology which, if properly understood, may not bristle your non-Catholic hairs on the back of your neck so much. Aren't we all "co-redeemers" in Christ? Are we all not part of His Body? Do we all mediate for each other by prayer [which we are commanded to do in Scripture] or are our intercessory prayers meaningless to our Father? Scripture also says that Christ is the ONLY mediator, but non-Catholics pray for each other all the time while they throw the "one mediator" prooftext about when they want to discredit the intercession of the Saints in heaven. The question you must answer for yourself is if you believe your prayer is efficacious for the Body of Christ. If you don't think it is, I can't understand why you do it. If you believe your love of God benefits others in the Body of Christ, even if it is only through prayer, [as opposed to sacrifice], than your actions may also be seen a co-redemptive, as long as they are united in Christ. FYI, sacrifice is a much higher form of worship in Catholic Christian theology than prayer only. The prophecy of Simeon in the temple is Scriptural validation that a "sword" pierced Mary's heart, too. When do you think that prophecy was fulfilled?
How "redemptive" is actual suffering for love of Christ, jrah? Is it harder to stand at the foot of your Son's Cross and feel His pain as a mother; or is it harder to pray?
quote:
She was NOT born without sin (see Luke chapter 1 - "my spirit rejoices in God my Savior".
I'm pretty sure other Catholics here have addressed this concern. If it needs to be said again, we believe Mary is sinless by God's Grace, whereas our Lord Jesus Christ is sinless by Nature.
quote:
She has NOT role in our salvation.
We all have a role in salvation history, whether it be for ourselves or others. We are all intercessors for the Body of Christ. We all use our gifts, talents, and resources to heal wounds, divisions, and promote unity in His Body, don't we? If not, we should. That is what the Scriptures call us to do. IMHO, the whole disconnect between devout Catholics and modern-day non-Catholic Christians is the redefinition of the "Body of Christ" at the "reformation." Never before were Christians so individualistic.
I snipped the rest of your post for brevity. It appears to me your friend understands her faith at a deeper level than her words allow her to express. Just an observation based on what you've shared about her here. Perhaps it's time for you to research Catholicism on your own and leave your friend out of these discussions?
Just a thought. No offense intended by my response. I pray you don't take any.
Peace of Christ,
Michael
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/17/2005 8:55:49 PM
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onelordofall
Posts: 262
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Hello NIF,
quote:
ORIGINAL: nowimfound
In Mark 10:17-18, we read of a rich young man who runs up to Jesus and says, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus answers "Why do you call me good? No one is good---except God alone....". From this statement of Jesus, can we not conclude that Mary was not good either? Can someone be not good and at the same time be without sin? Or was Jesus just plain wrong in his claim that no one except God alone is good?
Perhaps our Lord was trying to teach the "rich young man" a lesson? Can any Christian be "good" in and of him/herself? This is the whole Catholic point that all goodness comes to us from God in His Grace.
You refuse to recognize the fact that God's Grace makes us all "good" in Him, including His Blessed Mother, or none of us would have any hope of salvation. Nothing unclean will enter heaven, but we are adopted sons and daughters, co-heirs with Christ. We are members of His Body; the Body which came to us through Mary.
Abraham, Job, Elizabeth, and many others are called "righteous" in Scripture. Where do you think their righteousness came from?
Maybe I misunderstand your point. Perhaps all of us Catholic Christian contributors here are misunderstood as well. Wouldn't surprise me.
Peace in Christ,
Michael
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/17/2005 9:06:26 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kmkjubilee
Mary isn't sinless and never will be. It is astounding that man makes up a lot of junk about her - "that she was sinless". Its ashame the angiosaxan church has gone along with this great deception. She wasn't even mentioned a lot in the Bible.
Jesus is God - and one of the ten commandments says not to have idol worship. Mary has become an "idol". This is an great abomination.
Dear kmkjubliee,
At the very least, Mary is sinless now, and evermore shall be. It is no abomination to praise God for His marvelous works.
On the Feast of St. Pascal Boylon
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/17/2005 9:14:07 PM
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onelordofall
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Sorry about the big font.
Seems to me NIF started it. :)
I didn't realize the words in my last post would be so...big.
Thankfully, I can still read the regular size font, which I prefer. IOW, I wasn't "yelling" at NIF in my last post.
Just wanted to make that clear.
Peace of Christ,
Michael
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/17/2005 9:30:09 PM
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onelordofall
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Dear kmkjubilee,
quote:
Mary isn't sinless and never will be. It is astounding that man makes up a lot of junk about her - "that she was sinless". Its ashame the angiosaxan church has gone along with this great deception. She wasn't even mentioned a lot in the Bible.
If you do not believe the Saints in heaven are sinless, how do you interpret Heb. 12:23 which refers to the "spirits of the just made PERFECT? Would you be so kind to shed some light on how you personally interpret this verse? Have you ever noticed it before?
What do you think St. Paul was referring to when he called believers "co-heirs" with Christ, or when he writes of the "glory of his inheritance among the holy ones?" [Eph. 1:18] What do you think St. Paul meant?
I look forward to your response. Hopefully, it will be edifying.
Peace of Christ,
Michael
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/17/2005 10:24:24 PM
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nowimfound
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quote:
ORIGINAL: onelordofall
Hello NIF,
quote:
ORIGINAL: nowimfound
In Mark 10:17-18, we read of a rich young man who runs up to Jesus and says, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus answers "Why do you call me good? No one is good---except God alone....". From this statement of Jesus, can we not conclude that Mary was not good either? Can someone be not good and at the same time be without sin? Or was Jesus just plain wrong in his claim that no one except God alone is good?
Perhaps our Lord was trying to teach the "rich young man" a lesson? Can any Christian be "good" in and of him/herself? This is the whole Catholic point that all goodness comes to us from God in His Grace.
Undoubtably, our Lord was trying to teach the rich young man a lesson. Lets look at the rest of Mark 10 to find out what that lesson was.
Jesus continues from "No one is good---except God alone. " with "You know the commandments; 'do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother." (interesting don't you think that Jesus would end with honor your father and mother and here we are talking about his mother and Jesus didn't declare her good but he did His father).
To which the young rich man replies, "Teacher, all these I have kept since I was a boy."
Does anyone believe that this young rich man kept all of the commandments? Was he also without sin? Perhaps he kept the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law. Notice, Jesus doesn't challenge the young man's claim but raises the bar of his understanding of what it means to be good. He says, "One thing you lack. Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come follow me."
If the young rich man was not sinless, then the one thing Jesus said he needed, we all need in order to be good. What is that but to let go of the things of this world and walk by faith? Abraham believed God and walked according to God's command. For his faith, God credited righteousness to Abraham. Is this not what Jesus is teaching the rich young man? To be righteous in the eyes of God he need to walk in faith and not depend upon his own works? I think this is the lesson Jesus is teaching.
quote:
You refuse to recognize the fact that God's Grace makes us all "good" in Him, including His Blessed Mother, or none of us would have any hope of salvation. Nothing unclean will enter heaven, but we are adopted sons and daughters, co-heirs with Christ. We are members of His Body; the Body which came to us through Mary.
Abraham, Job, Elizabeth, and many others are called "righteous" in Scripture. Where do you think their righteousness came from?
How does God make us good? How do we become adopted sons and daughters and co-heirs of Christ? What was true for Abraham, Job, Elizabeth and others is that they all had the righteousness that comes by faith. None of them were without sin.
Grace and Peace,
NIF
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/17/2005 10:40:15 PM
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onelordofall
Posts: 262
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Dear NIF,
You wrote [expounding on the lesson Christ was trying to teach in the passage you cited]:
quote:
Lets look at the rest of Mark 10 to find out what that lesson was.
Jesus continues from "No one is good---except God alone. " with "You know the commandments; 'do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother." (interesting don't you think that Jesus would end with honor your father and mother and here we are talking about his mother and Jesus didn't declare her good but he did His father).
Actually, I'm wondering if you're implying the Perfect Son and our Savior ever failed to honor His mother, which would make Him a sinner according to the Law which He came to fulfill? Would any Perfect Son fail to honor His mother perfectly? Maybe that is the question.
I appreciate your pastoral message which followed, but it is time for bed for me.
I look forward to further discussion which addresses the topic of the thread.
Peace in Christ,
Michael
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/17/2005 10:52:38 PM
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nowimfound
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quote:
ORIGINAL: onelordofall
Dear NIF,
You wrote [expounding on the lesson Christ was trying to teach in the passage you cited]:
quote:
Lets look at the rest of Mark 10 to find out what that lesson was.
Jesus continues from "No one is good---except God alone. " with "You know the commandments; 'do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother." (interesting don't you think that Jesus would end with honor your father and mother and here we are talking about his mother and Jesus didn't declare her good but he did His father).
Actually, I'm wondering if you're implying the Perfect Son and our Savior ever failed to honor His mother, which would make Him a sinner according to the Law which He came to fulfill? Would any Perfect Son fail to honor His mother perfectly? Maybe that is the question.
Jesus would have failed to honor his Mother if she had in fact been sinless and equally worthy of being called good. As it is, by saying that God (his father) alone is worthy of being called good, Jesus gives honor where honor is due. To say that Mary also was good would apparently require Jesus to lie. To fail to say that Mary also was good if in fact she was would make Jesus less than perfectly obedient to the commandment.
Grace and Peace,
NIF
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/17/2005 11:01:30 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 118
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From: Washington, DC
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quote:
Jesus would have failed to honor his Mother if she had in fact been sinless and equally worthy of being called good. As it is, by saying that God (his father) alone is worthy of being called good, Jesus gives honor where honor is due. To say that Mary also was good would apparently require Jesus to lie. To fail to say that Mary also was good if in fact she was would make Jesus less than perfectly obedient to the commandment.
Mary was immaculately conceived for one reason alone: to bring glory to God. You see, God is so holy that he cannot dwell in the presence of sin. Since Mary was chosen to be the Ark of the New Covenant who would carry God's son in her womb, she could not have been stained by sin. However, she is of the line of Adam and was equally prone to inherit a sinful nature in need of salvation through Christ. She was saved by Jesus' passion (as we all are), just in a different way to make the incarnation possible.
The immaculate conception of Mary should not distract from God's glory. Instead, it should be used a way to emulate Christian perfection as we all use Mary as a role model and an exemplary example of a person who gave herself completely over to God. Ineed, there can be no greater way to glorify God than by striving to live our lives like Mary, always aware that her exalted status and intercession serve only to glorify our Heavenly Father and his divine son, her divine son, our Lord Jesus Christ.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/17/2005 11:08:57 PM
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TheHustler
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From: The Forgotten State of Dela-where?
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quote:
Mary was immaculately conceived for one reason alone: to bring glory to God. You see, God is so holy that he cannot dwell in the presence of sin.
And yet, somehow, that's exactly what he does in us.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/17/2005 11:16:01 PM
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ToolmanUF
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheHustler
quote:
Mary was immaculately conceived for one reason alone: to bring glory to God. You see, God is so holy that he cannot dwell in the presence of sin.
And yet, somehow, that's exactly what he does in us.
Which is why the scriptures and the Church councils are replete with teachings warning us that is we don't stay with Christ he doesn't stay with us. If we sin, we are not of God. St. John, St. Paul, the fathers of the Church, and even Christ himself tell us this.
With Mary, she didn't have a choice. God would be physically inside her for 9 months, he would be nursed by her and raised by her. She had to be able to give herself entirely over to God's service and become the New Eve, the Ark of the New Covenant, and the Mother of God the Son. The immaculate conception made this possible, for as scriptures tell us, God cannot be around sin.
In a way, St. Paul's warning about the reception of the Eucharist is quite similar. He speaks of the dangers we bring on ourselve when we receive communion with sin in our hearts. In the Eucharist, we are receiving the Lord into our bodies in a physical way, quite different from any other way. As such, we must be without sin. It only reasons that since Mary would bear God inside of her (as we all can through the most Holy Sacrament, el santísimo) she had to have been completely sinless in order to reveive God inside her blessed womb.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/17/2005 11:26:42 PM
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sdaw
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It is not that God is so holy that He cannot dwell in the presence of sin. It is that God is so holy that sin cannot remain in His presence. Scripture never records that God refused to go somewhere because there were sinners. Scripture is replete with people who where terrified to be in the Presence of God because they were sinners.
I believe that the Immaculate Conception occurred to protect the Blessed Virgin, not to protect God.
On the Feast of St. Pascal Boylon
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/17/2005 11:48:23 PM
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TheHustler
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quote:
Which is why the scriptures and the Church councils are replete with teachings warning us that is we don't stay with Christ he doesn't stay with us. If we sin, we are not of God. St. John, St. Paul, and fathers of the Church, and even Christ himself tell us this.
What are you trying to say? That if we sin (which we are guilty of whether we are aware of it or not) that Christ doesn't inhabit us?
Obviously we are not of God when we sin, if we were than God would be a sinner Himself, which He is not. But just because we sin doesn't mean that Christ is not in us. In fact, that is exactly why we need Christ!
And if God cannot be around sin how could He have even come to earth as a man? How could he have dined with sinners?
Clearly, God cannot sin Himself, and clearly God hates sin, but to say that He could not endure the physical state of being birthed for 9 months in the womb of a sinner is ridiculous.
quote:
With Mary, she didn't have a choice. God would be physically inside her for 9 months, her would be nursed by her and raised by her. She had to be able to give herself entirely over to God's service and become the New Eve, the Ark of the New Covenant, and the Mother of God the Son. The immaculate conception made this possible, for as scriptures tell us, God cannot be around sin.
And yet, for Mary to be the "new Eve" she would have to CHOOSE God. But as you said, "With Mary, she didn't have a choice." So really, the comparison stops there.
quote:
In a way, St. Paul's warning about the reception of the Eucharist is quite similar. He speaks of the dangers we bring on ourselve when we receive communion with sin in our hearts. In the Eucharist, we are receiving the Lord into our bodies in a physical way, quite different from any other way. As such, we must be without sin. It only reasons that since Mary would bear God inside of her (as we all can through the most Holy Sacrament, el santísimo) she had to have been completely sinless in order to receive God inside her blessed womb.
The only problem with this analogy is that then we are required to be sinless our entire lives in order to receive communion even once, which none of us are.
We all have to ask God for forgiveness in order to be clean, and by doing so He does allow us to partake in communion. Does that mean we won't sin ever again? If it does I'd like to see it, if it doesn't than it means we're going to have to go back and do it again.
I'm afraid that, while it's a nice thought, in light of the logic required to justify it I just don't believe Mary was sinless, or the new Eve or the new Ark of the Covenant.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/18/2005 9:01:20 AM
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nowimfound
Posts: 389
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ToolmanUF
quote:
Jesus would have failed to honor his Mother if she had in fact been sinless and equally worthy of being called good. As it is, by saying that God (his father) alone is worthy of being called good, Jesus gives honor where honor is due. To say that Mary also was good would apparently require Jesus to lie. To fail to say that Mary also was good if in fact she was would make Jesus less than perfectly obedient to the commandment.
Mary was immaculately conceived for one reason alone: to bring glory to God. You see, God is so holy that he cannot dwell in the presence of sin. Since Mary was chosen to be the Ark of the New Covenant who would carry God's son in her womb, she could not have been stained by sin. However, she is of the line of Adam and was equally prone to inherit a sinful nature in need of salvation through Christ. She was saved by Jesus' passion (as we all are), just in a different way to make the incarnation possible.
Jesus was made flesh, and he did dwell in a world of sin. Whether he first encountered sin in the womb of Mary or after taking his first breath makes no difference. There is no requirement here for Mary to have been sinless in order for Jesus to have been without sin. This is an innovation of the CC.
quote:
The immaculate conception of Mary should not distract from God's glory. Instead, it should be used a way to emulate Christian perfection as we all use Mary as a role model and an exemplary example of a person who gave herself completely over to God. Ineed, there can be no greater way to glorify God than by striving to live our lives like Mary, always aware that her exalted status and intercession serve only to glorify our Heavenly Father and his divine son, her divine son, our Lord Jesus Christ.
We know very little about the life of Mary. What we do know of her does not always portray her in the best of lights. Where did Mary seek the missing boy Jesus before finding him in the Temple? Why did Mary insist that Jesus intervene at the Wedding in Cana? Why did Mary and Jesus' unbelieving brothers call Jesus out when other thought Jesus was mad? How then can you say that hers is a life we should model ours after when we know so little about her life?
Grace and Peace,
NIF
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/18/2005 12:17:35 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
Posts: 7663
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: New Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ToolmanUF
Speaking of Mary, what does everybody think about the article that was posted on the opening page of this website (the one which stated that the Anglican church and the Catholic Church have come to an agreement regarding to Mary, the mother of Jesus)?
Isn't it comforting to know that the two largest Christian bodies have been able to realize that Mary doesn't have to be a issue dividing the Church, that what Christians share is greater than what separates?
I look foward to seeing more progress among these two Christian churches and I hope that they continue to work for full communion.
In case anyone is interested here's the link. Just click on the title below:
Catholics, Anglicans Reach Accord on Mary
_____________________________
Fritz
Senior Manager of Social Media
fritz@salemwebnetwork.com
Want to see my latest online project? Check out http://budurl.com/CWonFacebook
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/18/2005 9:22:25 PM
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Ormly
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Why does Mary need be sinless that Jesus be born sinless? Only the sin [original] of the father is passed on in procreation.
Orm
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/18/2005 10:02:59 PM
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onelordofall
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Dear Mattumanu,
quote:
That's been the expectation from the vatican since it's ecumenical outreach began shortly after vatican II. You only have unity with Rome if you agree with Rome.
And where do we find unity in any other ecumenical community unless "Rome" submits to the particular "ecumenical community" and their statement of faith, if they have one?
Truth is truth, afterall.
Michael
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/18/2005 10:39:00 PM
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onelordofall
Posts: 262
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Greetings Ormly,
quote:
Why does Mary need be sinless that Jesus be born sinless? Only the sin [original] of the father is passed on in procreation.
Where do you find the statement that "only the sin [original] of the father is passed on in procreation" in Scripture?
I would appreciate the heads up.
Peace of Christ,
Michael
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/19/2005 12:03:31 AM
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Mattumanu
Posts: 160
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quote:
ORIGINAL: onelordofall
Dear Mattumanu,
quote:
That's been the expectation from the vatican since it's ecumenical outreach began shortly after vatican II. You only have unity with Rome if you agree with Rome.
And where do we find unity in any other ecumenical community unless "Rome" submits to the particular "ecumenical community" and their statement of faith, if they have one?
Truth is truth, afterall.
Michael
Except that Rome's history shows that she isn't willing to consider that she might be wrong. The church, it is said, cannot be wrong. Rome is not going to meet anyone "halfway" on these issues. It's all or nothing.
_____________________________
Radical Grace Radio
Tear Down the High Places
I'm a converted pagan operating amongst a nation of apostate puritans ~ C. S. Lewis
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/19/2005 8:11:16 AM
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Ormly
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Exodus 20:5 (KJV)
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exodus 34:7 (KJV)
Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Numbers 14:18 (KJV)
The Lord is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
Deut. 5:9 (KJV)
Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
Notice there is no mention of mother in any of this passing on of sin. Even though a female is born in sin she does not pass on her sin. That would explain why an adulterous [Bathsheba] could be in the lineage of Jesus. Hope that helps.
Orm
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